Commander-List Digest Archive

Mon 02/16/09


Total Messages Posted: 3



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:21 AM - Re: Crash in Buffalo (Robert Feldtman)
     2. 07:49 AM - Fw: [Fw: the day Paul Newman died MUST READ (Dan Farmer)
     3. 08:36 AM - Re: Fw: [Fw: the day Paul Newman died MUST READ (nico css)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:21:37 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Crash in Buffalo
    From: Robert Feldtman <bobf@feldtman.com>
    I'd say yes - it sounds like they had the a/p on - in my turbocommander 681, it once tried to hold me on the ils glideslope when I had the power back and fortunately I killed it with the red button and added power just inside the outer marker (and pushed the nose down- no problem)- no ice issues, but the autopilot is stupid sometimes at the wrong time. nothing wrong with landing hot - I'd rather go off the end at 25 mph than pancake in at stall speed off the end of the runway. I'm not an airline pilot but I get the impression many are trained by the company book "thou shall and shall not"..... bobf On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 6:44 PM, nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com> wrote: > > > > Wouldn't it be safer to land without flaps when in doubt and deal with > decelerating the aircraft once (safely) on the ground? > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brock Lorber" < > blorber@southwestcirrus.com> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 1:35 PM > > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo > > > It's a scary video: > http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946 > > The ice warning placard in the 680fl(p) reminded me of this video every > time I saw it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Robert S. > Randazzo > Sent: Sat 2/14/2009 11:04 PM > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo > > Don/Nico- > > > Assymetry protection is a requirement in transport category airplanes, and > the Dash uses a torque tube like most all turboprops to prevent the > condition. You'd have to snap that tube or bend the entire wing box to get > that condition. > > > I've got a few thousand hours flying turboprops and probably more than 100 > approaches into KBUF- about half in crap weather. I've never seen ice build > more quickly on an airframe in any other location. When the ice overwhelms > the heated windshield- it is extreme. I saw this happen twice, both on > flights into/out of KBUF- and both for me were in daylight so we were able > to rapidly assess the seriousness of our condition. From the media and NTSB > reports- it seems this crew saw just such a phenomenon- and was in the > process of assessing it when cleared for the approach. > > > There is a fantastic NASA video that discusses tail-plane stalls on account > of icing. (I couldn't find it in a quick search- I'll keep looking, as the > lessons imparted easily apply to commander pilots.) At our line, we were > required to watch this video as part of our training- and it gives some > fantastic data on how to detect and manage an incipient tail-plane stall > condition on account of ice. One lesson you take away from this video is > that if you attempt to treat a tail-plane stall the way you would a wing > stall, you will lose control of the airplane. > > > This has left me wondering if the crew induced a wing stall attempting to > combat the tail-plane stall, and in doing so spun the airplane. As you guys > no doubt know- there are a couple of places in spin rotation, especially for > larger wing aircraft where the body angle will be nearly level. > > > This crew had very little margin for error- and it seems they were only > just becoming aware of the danger when events overcame their best efforts. > Makes you shudder to wonder how close some of us have been to this exact > scenario but through luck or providence were able to come out the other end. > > > The Dash is a heck of an ice carrier- so these conditions must have been > truly unusual. > > > Be careful out there, guys. > > > Robert S. Randazzo > > N414C > > > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of dongirod > Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 10:18 PM > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo > > > Nico, > > > I know very little about that airplane, but I would think it would have > some kind of flap asymmetry built into it, everything I flew commercially > did. I am just speculating but was thinking that maybe due to ice it > stalled out, they are now reporting it basically pancaked in flat not nosed > in as previously reported and that the stall warning and stick pusher were > going off. > > > But it does makes us aware of how fragile life is, they are in my prayers. > > > Don > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: nico css <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com> > > To: commander-list@matronics.com > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 12:17 AM > > Subject: Commander-List: Crash in Buffalo > > > We don't know exactly what happened to that flight, but from the > information trickling out of the press conferences and the news media, one > may conclude that the plane violently rolled over when the flaps were > lowered. It appears to be a full roll because the wreck was found in a flat > position (belly down) almost in the opposite direction of the flight, which > makes one think that it rolled and yawed when the flaps deployed unevenly. > > > Some years ago I read about the dangers of lowering or raising the flaps > during severe ice buildup for this exact reason. Sad chain of events, > though. > > > We hold those who mourn in our thoughts and prayers. > > > Nico > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List"> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > >


    Message 2


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    Time: 07:49:24 AM PST US
    From: Dan Farmer <daniellfarmer@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: the day Paul Newman died MUST READ
    --- On Mon, 2/16/09, D.R. Buffington <d.r.buffington@mac.com> wrote: From: D.R. Buffington <d.r.buffington@mac.com> Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: the day Paul Newman died Cc: "John Gregory" <psugreg22@comcast.net>, "Don Irwin" <irwinftw@att.net>, "Harper Goodwin" <harpergoodwin@gmail.com>, "Bruce Ott" <bruceott@hotmail. com>, "Mike Buffington" <mike.buffington@ksmedcenter.com>, "Cal Moreland" < calmoreland@charter.net>, "Robert Buffington" <r.buffington@tri-anim.com>, "Lynn Buffington" <LBuffington@sves.org>, "Bob Graver" <graver1@earthlink.n et>, "Dan Farmer" <daniellfarmer@yahoo.com>, "Norman Auger" <nauger@mac.com >, "Jeff Randolph" <airrudolf@hotmail.com>, "Ray Seymour" <capnray3@cox.net >, "Debra Valtman" <davaltman@sbcglobal.net>, "Terry Heizenrader" <labbay@c omcast.net> Dave- =0A =0A-------- Original Message --------=0A=0A =0A =0A Subject: =0A the day Paul Newman died=0A =0A =0A Date: =0A Sun, 15 F eb 2009 23:56:35-=0A =0A=0A =0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A You're an=0A18 or 19 year old kid. You' re critically wounded, and dying in the=0Ajungle in the-Ia-Drang-Vall ey-, 11-14-1965,-LZ Xray,-Vietnam-. -Your infantry unit is=0Aoutn umbered 8 - 1, and the enemy fire is so intense, from 100 or 200=0Ayards aw ay, that your own Infantry Commander has ordered the MediVac=0Ahelicopters to stop coming in-.--You're=0Alying there, listening to the enemy-m achine guns,=0Aand you know you're not getting out. Your family is 1/2 way around the=0Aworld, 12,000 miles away, and you'll never see them again. As the world=0Astarts to fade in and out, you know this is the day.--- =0A-- =0A--Then, over the machine gun=0Anoise, you faintly hear that sound of a helicopter, and you look up to=0Asee an un-armed Huey, but it doesn't se em real, because no Medi-Vac=0Amarkings are on it.--- =0A-- =0A---Ed Freeman-is coming for you. He's=0Anot Medi-Vac, so it's no t his job, but he's flying his Huey down into=0Athemachine gun fire, after the=0AMedi-Vacs were ordered not to come.--- =0A-- =0A -=0A-He's coming anyway.--=0AAnd he drops it in, and sits there in the-machine=0Agun fire, as they load 2 or 3 of you on board.- - Then he=0Aflies you up and out through the gunfire, to the Doctors and Nurses.--- =0A-- =0A---And, he kept coming=0Aback.... 13 more times..... And took abou t 30 of you and your buddies=0Aout, who would never have gotten out.-- - =0A-- =0A--- --Medal=0Aof Honor Recipient Ed Freeman-died last Wednes day at the=0Aage of 80, in Boise, ID=0A......May God rest his soul.....- -- =0A-- =0A--- -(Oh yeah, Paul Newman=0Adied that day too. -I guess you k new that -- He got a lot more press=0Athan Ed Freeman.) =0A =0A -=0A =0A =0A =0A=0A =0A=0A =0A=0AA Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. =0ASee yours in just 2 easy step s!=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A


    Message 3


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    Time: 08:36:15 AM PST US
    From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
    Subject: Re: Fwd: [Fwd: the day Paul Newman died MUST READ
    He was one of a rare breed. Very rare. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Farmer To: commander-list-digest@matronics.com Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 7:43 AM Subject: Commander-List: Fwd: [Fwd: the day Paul Newman died MUST READ --- On Mon, 2/16/09, D.R. Buffington <d.r.buffington@mac.com> wrote: From: D.R. Buffington <d.r.buffington@mac.com> Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: the day Paul Newman died To: Cc: "John Gregory" <psugreg22@comcast.net>, "Don Irwin" <irwinftw@att.net>, "Harper Goodwin" <harpergoodwin@gmail.com>, "Bruce Ott" <bruceott@hotmail.com>, "Mike Buffington" <mike.buffington@ksmedcenter.com>, "Cal Moreland" <calmoreland@charter.net>, "Robert Buffington" <r.buffington@tri-anim.com>, "Lynn Buffington" <LBuffington@sves.org>, "Bob Graver" <graver1@earthlink.net>, "Dan Farmer" <daniellfarmer@yahoo.com>, "Norman Auger" <nauger@mac.com>, "Jeff Randolph" <airrudolf@hotmail.com>, "Ray Seymour" <capnray3@cox.net>, "Debra Valtman" <davaltman@sbcglobal.net>, "Terry Heizenrader" <labbay@comcast.net> Date: Monday, February 16, 2009, 6:53 AM Dave -------- Original Message -------- Subject: the day Paul Newman died Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 23:56:35 You're an 18 or 19 year old kid. You're critically wounded, and dying in the jungle in the Ia Drang Valley , 11-14-1965, LZ Xray, Vietnam . Your infantry unit is outnumbered 8 - 1, and the enemy fire is so intense, from 100 or 200 yards away, that your own Infantry Commander has ordered the MediVac helicopters to stop coming in . You're lying there, listening to the enemy machine guns, and you know you're not getting out. Your family is 1/2 way around the world, 12,000 miles away, and you'll never see them again. As the world starts to fade in and out, you know this is the day. Then, over the machine gun noise, you faintly hear that sound of a helicopter, and you look up to see an un-armed Huey, but it doesn't seem real, because no Medi-Vac markings are on it. Ed Freeman is coming for you. He's not Medi-Vac, so it's not his job, but he's flying his Huey down into themachine gun fire, after the Medi-Vacs were ordered not to come. He's coming anyway. And he drops it in, and sits there in the machine gun fire, as they load 2 or 3 of you on board. Then he flies you up and out through the gunfire, to the Doctors and Nurses. And, he kept coming back.... 13 more times..... And took about 30 of you and your buddies out, who would never have gotten out. Medal of Honor Recipient Ed Freeman died last Wednesday at the age of 80, in Boise, ID ......May God rest his soul..... (Oh yeah, Paul Newman died that day too. I guess you knew that -- He got a lot more press than Ed Freeman.) -------------------------------------------------------------------- A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!




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