Commander-List Digest Archive

Thu 03/26/09


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:09 AM - dead stick landing - not bad (nico css)
     2. 06:52 AM - Re: 121.5 MHz ELT (nico css)
     3. 07:23 AM - Re: 121.5 MHz ELT ()
     4. 08:33 AM - Re: 121.5 MHz ELT (Bruce Campbell)
     5. 10:30 AM - Re: 121.5 MHz ELT (Steve at Col-East)
     6. 12:41 PM - Re: 121.5 MHz ELT (Tom Fisher)
     7. 01:03 PM - Re: 121.5 MHz ELT (Bruce Campbell)
     8. 01:22 PM - Re: 121.5 MHz ELT ()
     9. 01:38 PM - Re: 121.5 MHz ELT (Bruce Campbell)
    10. 01:50 PM - Re: 121.5 MHz ELT ()
    11. 02:06 PM - Re: 121.5 MHz ELT (L D GIROD)
    12. 02:08 PM - Re: 121.5 MHz ELT (L D GIROD)
    13. 02:54 PM - Re: 121.5 MHz ELT ()
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:09:39 AM PST US
    From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
    Subject: dead stick landing - not bad
    http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/SUPERGT/3384/


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:52:34 AM PST US
    From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
    Subject: 121.5 MHz ELT
    Writing another book, Andrew? By the way, we never got a copy of your previous one featuring Commanders. I'd like to buy one if I know where to find it. Thanks Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew.bridget@telus.net Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Good evening folks, This is not really a Commander topic per se, but aviation related, so forgive me for posting non-Commander topics here. :-) Can anyone give me a very high-level overview of how the older 121.5 MHz ELTs work in saving lives and facilitating rescue? I understand they are (or supposed to be) activated at a certain G loading and transmit an emergency signal on 121.5 MHz, which is/was monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. But which ELT was triggered? Do the ELTs transmit an identifying code? If so, what is it? The airplane's registration? Next, how do the search teams - say the good people at CASARA - locate the downed aircraft? Would the signal be picked up by an ADF, for example, and triangulated to pinpoint a search location? Tom Fisher, would you be able to help here? How does a CASARA search get organised? Who advises CASARA? Is there somebody manning the frequency? What happened pre-Cospas-Sarsat? Thanks for your help, Regards, Andrew


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:23:06 AM PST US
    From: <andrew.bridget@telus.net>
    Subject: Re: 121.5 MHz ELT
    Actually, yes. Two books, in fact - "God's Orphan", which is our journey in adopting our daughter from China, and "Dragon in the Sky", a sequel to "Where Vultures Roost". The question first came up in a discussion with a colleague, and when I wrote this last night I thought that maybe I should include such an event in "Dragon in the Sky" . Or maybe not. We'll see. Re where to get the book from, you can order it online from Barnes & Noble or the publisher (Publish America), or I can send you a signed copy. I have a few books here; I usually charge $30 which includes postage, so it works out about the same as the other booksellers once you add in postage. Barnes & Noble http://books.barnesandnoble.com/search/results.aspx?WRD=where+vultures+ roost Publish America: http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/index.htm then type in "Where Vultures Roost" in the search area. For some reason or another Amazon lists the book, but I can't see where you can click to order it, apart from going to outside sellers. God bless, Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:51 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Writing another book, Andrew? By the way, we never got a copy of your previous one featuring Commanders. I'd like to buy one if I know where to find it. Thanks Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew.bridget@telus.net Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:27 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Good evening folks, This is not really a Commander topic per se, but aviation related, so forgive me for posting non-Commander topics here. :-) Can anyone give me a very high-level overview of how the older 121.5 MHz ELTs work in saving lives and facilitating rescue? I understand they are (or supposed to be) activated at a certain G loading and transmit an emergency signal on 121.5 MHz, which is/was monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. But which ELT was triggered? Do the ELTs transmit an identifying code? If so, what is it? The airplane's registration? Next, how do the search teams - say the good people at CASARA - locate the downed aircraft? Would the signal be picked up by an ADF, for example, and triangulated to pinpoint a search location? Tom Fisher, would you be able to help here? How does a CASARA search get organised? Who advises CASARA? Is there somebody manning the frequency? What happened pre-Cospas-Sarsat? Thanks for your help, Regards, Andrew href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:33:00 AM PST US
    From: Bruce Campbell <brcamp@windows.microsoft.com>
    Subject: 121.5 MHz ELT
    The 121.5 ELT isn't associated (much) with SARSAT, which monitors 406 MHz. The 121.5 antenna would have been too big to launch. The signal isn't in a range that ADFs (who top out at 30 mhz) can get. Essentially the ELT prod uces a low power signal, line of sight which can be triangulated by flight service stations (when they existed) via their VHF DF systems (when they ha d them) or heard by a search pilot flying essentially overhead, or at most within a few miles. The removal of virtually all of the infrastructure to find a 121.5 (or 243) ELT signal is why they are being replaced by the 406 Mhz ELTs, which both (can) give a GPS position in their standard signal and are picked up by SA RSAT Bruce From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew.bridget@telus.net Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 7:18 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Actually, yes. Two books, in fact - "God's Orphan", which is our journey in adopting our daughter from China, and "Dragon in the Sky", a sequel to "Wh ere Vultures Roost". The question first came up in a discussion with a coll eague, and when I wrote this last night I thought that maybe I should inclu de such an event in "Dragon in the Sky" . Or maybe not. We'll see. Re where to get the book from, you can order it online from Barnes & Noble or the publisher (Publish America), or I can send you a signed copy. I have a few books here; I usually charge $30 which includes postage, so it works out about the same as the other booksellers once you add in postage. Barnes & Noble http://books.barnesandnoble.com/search/results.aspx?WRD=wh ere+vultures+roost Publish America: http://www.publishamerica.com/shopping/index.htm then type in "Where Vultures Roost" in the search area. For some reason or another Amazon lists the book, but I can't see where you can click to order it, apart from going to outside sellers. God bless, Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css<mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:51 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Writing another book, Andrew? By the way, we never got a copy of your previous one featuring Commanders. I'd like to buy one if I know where to find it. Thanks Nico ________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-commander-list -server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] O n Behalf Of andrew.bridget@telus.net<mailto:andrew.bridget@telus.net> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Good evening folks, This is not really a Commander topic per se, but aviation related, so forgi ve me for posting non-Commander topics here. :-) Can anyone give me a very high-level overview of how the older 121.5 MHz EL Ts work in saving lives and facilitating rescue? I understand they are (or supposed to be) activated at a certain G loading and transmit an emergency signal on 121.5 MHz, which is/was monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. But which ELT was triggered? Do the ELTs transmit an identifying co de? If so, what is it? The airplane's registration? Next, how do the search teams - say the good people at CASARA - locate the downed aircraft? Would the signal be picked up by an ADF, for example, and triangulated to pinpoi nt a search location? Tom Fisher, would you be able to help here? How does a CASARA search get organised? Who advises CASARA? Is there somebody mannin g the frequency? What happened pre-Cospas-Sarsat? Thanks for your help, Regards, Andrew href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:30:20 AM PST US
    From: "Steve at Col-East" <steve2@sover.net>
    Subject: Re: 121.5 MHz ELT
    The worst part of carrying an ELT (at least in the States) is that in the event of an accident the Civil Air Patrol might find you. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew.bridget@telus.net Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:27 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Good evening folks, This is not really a Commander topic per se, but aviation related, so forgive me for posting non-Commander topics here. :-) Can anyone give me a very high-level overview of how the older 121.5 MHz ELTs work in saving lives and facilitating rescue? I understand they are (or supposed to be) activated at a certain G loading and transmit an emergency signal on 121.5 MHz, which is/was monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. But which ELT was triggered? Do the ELTs transmit an identifying code? If so, what is it? The airplane's registration? Next, how do the search teams - say the good people at CASARA - locate the downed aircraft? Would the signal be picked up by an ADF, for example, and triangulated to pinpoint a search location? Tom Fisher, would you be able to help here? How does a CASARA search get organised? Who advises CASARA? Is there somebody manning the frequency? What happened pre-Cospas-Sarsat? Thanks for your help, Regards, Andrew href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:41:43 PM PST US
    From: "Tom Fisher" <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
    Subject: Re: 121.5 MHz ELT
    As the Commander of CASARA for the South West of British Columbia I should have some knowledge about the subject in this area, I just wish that the some intelligent decisions were being made by those who shut down the monitoring of 121.5. In the past any 121.5 signal picked up by SARSAT system would be monitored on the ground. The position of the ELT signal would be narrowed down to a smaller area with each pass of the many satellites. The nearest SAR group would then be notified and search aircraft would be dispatched. In Canada, British Columbia, the local Military Joint Rescue Coordination Centre in Victoria would be notified of the presence of the ELT signal, they in turn would notify the CASARA Commander for that area (there are six areas in the Province) of British Columbia and depending on it's approximate location (50 to 300 mile radius) would request dispatching whatever resources it called for, usually a vehicle to a nuisance ELT at an airport otherwise one or two aircraft with special homing equipment, (I have the equipment installed on my 680FLP), Search Pilot, Navigator and possibly one or two Spotters all within an hour. If we can hear it, we can locate it although in mountainous terrain there are a lot of reflective issues to deal with as well as power lines propagating the signal along that corridor. When an ELT is triggered either manually or with the "G" switch it just starts transmitting (and should not be turned off), it does not transmit any data regarding the source of the signal so all ELT's are hunted down with all dispatch until we know what the source is. Things are different now as 121.5 is no longer being monitored even though less than 20% of the general aviation aircraft in North American have the new 406 ELT installed. Worst yet these 406 units must be registered and a lot are not, if it is registered then your tail number name contact names and numbers will all be available to SAR. When you buy a 406 ELT buy one that has an integrated GPS that will get search teams into a 10 nm area. There is still a 121.5 signal emanating from the 406 ELT's for local homing (still required) but it is half the strength of the original 121.5 ELT's. Between the lines of asterisks below is a notice from NOAA SARSAT regarding 406 ELT's it is scary to say the least, I sure as hope all you guys have that third radio installed just to listen to 121.5. I hope this covers most of your questions. Tom C-GISS 680 FLP (Mr.RPM) ************************************************************************* ************** Termination of Satellite Monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELT's. - ARE YOU READY? Notice Number: NOTC1518 Termination of satellite monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELTs will happen in under a month. Are you ready? On 1 February 2009, the International Cospas-Sarsat [1] [1] Organization (U.S. included) will terminate processing of distress signals emitted by 121.5 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitters (ELTs). Pilots flying aircraft equipped with 121.5 MHz ELTs after that date will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations monitoring 121.5 to hear and report distress alert signals, transmitted from a possible crash site. Protect each other. Currently only 12-15% of the registered aircraft in the United States are flying with 406 MHz ELTs. This means that there is at least an 85% chance that an aircraft in an accident will only transmit a 121.5 MHz signal, thus remaining silent to the satellites. It will be up to other pilots monitoring the 121.5 MHz frequency in the cockpit to alert Search and Rescue authorities to accidents involving 121.5. When you fly, look out for your fellow pilots and when possible monitor 121.5 MHz. If a 121.5 MHz ELT is heard on guard, report to the nearest air traffic control tower, the time and location of when you first detect the ELT, when it is the loudest and when it drops off your radio. Listening and reporting may well be the difference that saves a life. Protect yourself. Cospas-Sarsat System (U.S. included) has been and will continue processing emergency signals transmitted by 406 MHz ELTs. These 5 Watt digital beacons transmit a much stronger signal, are more accurate, verifiable and traceable to the registered beacon owner (406 MHz ELTs must be registered by the owner in accordance with Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulation at www.beaconregistration.noaa.gov). Registration allows the search and rescue authorities to contact the beacon owner, or his or her designated alternate by telephone to determine if a real emergency exists. Therefore, a simple telephone call often solves a 406 MHz alerts without launching costly and limited search and rescue resources, which would have to be done for a 121.5 MHz alert. For these reasons, the search and rescue community is encouraging aircraft owners to consider retrofit of 406 MHz ELTs or at a minimum, consider the purchase of a handheld 406 MHz Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) which can be carried in the cockpit while continuing to maintain a fixed 121.5 MHz ELT mounted in the aircraft's tail. Protect yourself and your passengers and Get the Fix. Switch to 406. Remember, after February 1, 2009, the world-wide Cospas-Sarsat satellite system will no longer process 121.5 MHz alert signals. Pilots involved in aircraft accidents in remote areas will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations to hear emergency ELT distress signals. For further information concerning the termination of 121.5 MHz data processing visit www.sarsat.noaa.govor contact Switchto406@noaa.gov with any questions. Address SARSAT inquiries to: NOAA SARSAT NSOF. E/SP3 4231 SuitlandRoad Suitland, MD 20746 Phone: 301.817.4515 Toll free: 888.212.7283 Fax: 301.817.4565 ************************************************************************* ************** ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Good evening folks, This is not really a Commander topic per se, but aviation related, so forgive me for posting non-Commander topics here. :-) Can anyone give me a very high-level overview of how the older 121.5 MHz ELTs work in saving lives and facilitating rescue? I understand they are (or supposed to be) activated at a certain G loading and transmit an emergency signal on 121.5 MHz, which is/was monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. But which ELT was triggered? Do the ELTs transmit an identifying code? If so, what is it? The airplane's registration? Next, how do the search teams - say the good people at CASARA - locate the downed aircraft? Would the signal be picked up by an ADF, for example, and triangulated to pinpoint a search location? Tom Fisher, would you be able to help here? How does a CASARA search get organised? Who advises CASARA? Is there somebody manning the frequency? What happened pre-Cospas-Sarsat? Thanks for your help, Regards, Andrew


    Message 7


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    Time: 01:03:46 PM PST US
    From: Bruce Campbell <brcamp@windows.microsoft.com>
    Subject: 121.5 MHz ELT
    I did CAP search in Northern California for some years, and generally a 12 1.5 ELT signal didn't go very far in the sierra and siskyous (maybe only he arable directly above). The mode of finding it was generally to fly a ser ies of spiral search patterns on a grid until someone heard it, then look for the highest volume with AGC off on the radio. It was a time consumin g, and often as not futile process. Even when the signal could be pinpo inted, in the days before GPS it was only indicated by a DR with possibly ( but not often) some VOR bearings to go by. A 10 nm radius would have been wonderful. Of course the ELTs going off on some ramp were relatively easy to find, but still not quick or easy. For what its worth, AmeriKing's 406 ELT lists about $850. It may be a good idea to budget for an upgrade, as I will be doing. From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:44 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT As the Commander of CASARA for the South West of British Columbia I should have some knowledge about the subject in this area, I just wish that the so me intelligent decisions were being made by those who shut down the monitor ing of 121.5. In the past any 121.5 signal picked up by SARSAT system would be monitored on the ground. The position of the ELT signal would be narrowed down to a smaller area with each pass of the many satellites. The nearest SAR group would then be notified and search aircraft would be dispatched. In Canada, British Columbia, the local Military Joint Rescue Coordination C entre in Victoria would be notified of the presence of the ELT signal, they in turn would notify the CASARA Commander for that area (there are six are as in the Province) of British Columbia and depending on it's approximate l ocation (50 to 300 mile radius) would request dispatching whatever resource s it called for, usually a vehicle to a nuisance ELT at an airport otherwis e one or two aircraft with special homing equipment, (I have the equipment installed on my 680FLP), Search Pilot, Navigator and possibly one or two Sp otters all within an hour. If we can hear it, we can locate it although in mountainous terrain there a re a lot of reflective issues to deal with as well as power lines propagati ng the signal along that corridor. When an ELT is triggered either manually or with the "G" switch it just sta rts transmitting (and should not be turned off), it does not transmit any d ata regarding the source of the signal so all ELT's are hunted down with al l dispatch until we know what the source is. Things are different now as 121.5 is no longer being monitored even though less than 20% of the general aviation aircraft in North American have the n ew 406 ELT installed. Worst yet these 406 units must be registered and a l ot are not, if it is registered then your tail number name contact names an d numbers will all be available to SAR. When you buy a 406 ELT buy one tha t has an integrated GPS that will get search teams into a 10 nm area. Ther e is still a 121.5 signal emanating from the 406 ELT's for local homing (st ill required) but it is half the strength of the original 121.5 ELT's. Between the lines of asterisks below is a notice from NOAA SARSAT regarding 406 ELT's it is scary to say the least, I sure as hope all you guys have t hat third radio installed just to listen to 121.5. I hope this covers most of your questions. Tom C-GISS 680 FLP (Mr.RPM) *************************************************************************** ************ Termination of Satellite Monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELT's. - ARE YOU READY? Notice Number: NOTC1518 Termination of satellite monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELTs will happen in under a month. Are you ready? On 1 February 2009, the International Cospas-Sarsat [1] [1] Organization (U .S. included) will terminate processing of distress signals emitted by 121. 5 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitters (ELTs). Pilots flying aircraft equippe d with 121.5 MHz ELTs after that date will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations monitoring 121.5 to hear and report distress alert signals, transmitted from a possible crash site. Protect each other... Currently only 12-15% of the registered aircraft in the United States are flying with 406 MHz ELTs. This means that there is at least an 85% chance that an aircraft in an accident will only transmit a 121.5 MHz signal, thus remaining silent to the satellites. It will be up to other pilots monitor ing the 121.5 MHz frequency in the cockpit to alert Search and Rescue autho rities to accidents involving 121.5. When you fly, look out for your fello w pilots and when possible monitor 121.5 MHz. If a 121.5 MHz ELT is heard on guard, report to the nearest air traffic con trol tower, the time and location of when you first detect the ELT, when it is the loudest and when it drops off your radio. Listening and reporting may well be the difference that saves a life. Protect yourself... Cospas-Sarsat System (U.S. included) has been and will continue processing emergency signals transmitted by 406 MHz ELTs. These 5 Watt digital beacons transmit a much stronger signal, are more accurate, verifiable and traceab le to the registered beacon owner (406 MHz ELTs must be registered by the o wner in accordance with Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulation at www.beaconregistration.noaa.gov). Registration allows the search and res cue authorities to contact the beacon owner, or his or her designated alter nate by telephone to determine if a real emergency exists. Therefore, a sim ple telephone call often solves a 406 MHz alerts without launching costly a nd limited search and rescue resources, which would have to be done for a 1 21.5 MHz alert. For these reasons, the search and rescue community is encou raging aircraft owners to consider retrofit of 406 MHz ELTs or at a minimum , consider the purchase of a handheld 406 MHz Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) which can be carried in the cockpit while continuing to maintain a fixed 1 21.5 MHz ELT mounted in the aircraft's tail. Protect yourself and your pas sengers and Get the Fix... Switch to 406. Remember, after February 1, 2009, the world-wide Cospas-Sarsat satellite sy stem will no longer process 121.5 MHz alert signals. Pilots involved in air craft accidents in remote areas will have to depend on pilots of over flyin g aircraft and or ground stations to hear emergency ELT distress signals. For further information concerning the termination of 121.5 MHz data proces sing visit www.sarsat.noaa.gov<http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/>or contact Switc hto406@noaa.gov<mailto:Switchto406@noaa.gov> with any questions. Address SARSAT inquiries to: NOAA SARSAT NSOF. E/SP3 4231 SuitlandRoad Suitland, MD 20746 Phone: 301.817.4515 Toll free: 888.212.7283 Fax: 301.817.4565 *************************************************************************** ************ ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net<mailto:andrew.bridget@telus.net> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Good evening folks, This is not really a Commander topic per se, but aviation related, so forgi ve me for posting non-Commander topics here. :-) Can anyone give me a very high-level overview of how the older 121.5 MHz EL Ts work in saving lives and facilitating rescue? I understand they are (or supposed to be) activated at a certain G loading and transmit an emergency signal on 121.5 MHz, which is/was monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. But which ELT was triggered? Do the ELTs transmit an identifying co de? If so, what is it? The airplane's registration? Next, how do the search teams - say the good people at CASARA - locate the downed aircraft? Would the signal be picked up by an ADF, for example, and triangulated to pinpoi nt a search location? Tom Fisher, would you be able to help here? How does a CASARA search get organised? Who advises CASARA? Is there somebody mannin g the frequency? What happened pre-Cospas-Sarsat? Thanks for your help, Regards, Andrew href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:22:11 PM PST US
    From: <andrew.bridget@telus.net>
    Subject: Re: 121.5 MHz ELT
    Thank you, Tom and Bruce... Does each ELT have a unique signal (maybe in Morse)? Or is it just an unbroken transmit signal? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Campbell To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT I did CAP search in Northern California for some years, and generally a 121.5 ELT signal didn't go very far in the sierra and siskyous (maybe only hearable directly above). The mode of finding it was generally to fly a series of spiral search patterns on a grid until someone heard it, then look for the highest volume with AGC off on the radio. It was a time consuming, and often as not futile process. Even when the signal could be pinpointed, in the days before GPS it was only indicated by a DR with possibly (but not often) some VOR bearings to go by. A 10 nm radius would have been wonderful. Of course the ELTs going off on some ramp were relatively easy to find, but still not quick or easy. For what its worth, AmeriKing's 406 ELT lists about $850. It may be a good idea to budget for an upgrade, as I will be doing. From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:44 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT As the Commander of CASARA for the South West of British Columbia I should have some knowledge about the subject in this area, I just wish that the some intelligent decisions were being made by those who shut down the monitoring of 121.5. In the past any 121.5 signal picked up by SARSAT system would be monitored on the ground. The position of the ELT signal would be narrowed down to a smaller area with each pass of the many satellites. The nearest SAR group would then be notified and search aircraft would be dispatched. In Canada, British Columbia, the local Military Joint Rescue Coordination Centre in Victoria would be notified of the presence of the ELT signal, they in turn would notify the CASARA Commander for that area (there are six areas in the Province) of British Columbia and depending on it's approximate location (50 to 300 mile radius) would request dispatching whatever resources it called for, usually a vehicle to a nuisance ELT at an airport otherwise one or two aircraft with special homing equipment, (I have the equipment installed on my 680FLP), Search Pilot, Navigator and possibly one or two Spotters all within an hour. If we can hear it, we can locate it although in mountainous terrain there are a lot of reflective issues to deal with as well as power lines propagating the signal along that corridor. When an ELT is triggered either manually or with the "G" switch it just starts transmitting (and should not be turned off), it does not transmit any data regarding the source of the signal so all ELT's are hunted down with all dispatch until we know what the source is. Things are different now as 121.5 is no longer being monitored even though less than 20% of the general aviation aircraft in North American have the new 406 ELT installed. Worst yet these 406 units must be registered and a lot are not, if it is registered then your tail number name contact names and numbers will all be available to SAR. When you buy a 406 ELT buy one that has an integrated GPS that will get search teams into a 10 nm area. There is still a 121.5 signal emanating from the 406 ELT's for local homing (still required) but it is half the strength of the original 121.5 ELT's. Between the lines of asterisks below is a notice from NOAA SARSAT regarding 406 ELT's it is scary to say the least, I sure as hope all you guys have that third radio installed just to listen to 121.5. I hope this covers most of your questions. Tom C-GISS 680 FLP (Mr.RPM) ************************************************************************* ************** Termination of Satellite Monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELT's. - ARE YOU READY? Notice Number: NOTC1518 Termination of satellite monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELTs will happen in under a month. Are you ready? On 1 February 2009, the International Cospas-Sarsat [1] [1] Organization (U.S. included) will terminate processing of distress signals emitted by 121.5 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitters (ELTs). Pilots flying aircraft equipped with 121.5 MHz ELTs after that date will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations monitoring 121.5 to hear and report distress alert signals, transmitted from a possible crash site. Protect each other. Currently only 12-15% of the registered aircraft in the United States are flying with 406 MHz ELTs. This means that there is at least an 85% chance that an aircraft in an accident will only transmit a 121.5 MHz signal, thus remaining silent to the satellites. It will be up to other pilots monitoring the 121.5 MHz frequency in the cockpit to alert Search and Rescue authorities to accidents involving 121.5. When you fly, look out for your fellow pilots and when possible monitor 121.5 MHz. If a 121.5 MHz ELT is heard on guard, report to the nearest air traffic control tower, the time and location of when you first detect the ELT, when it is the loudest and when it drops off your radio. Listening and reporting may well be the difference that saves a life. Protect yourself. Cospas-Sarsat System (U.S. included) has been and will continue processing emergency signals transmitted by 406 MHz ELTs. These 5 Watt digital beacons transmit a much stronger signal, are more accurate, verifiable and traceable to the registered beacon owner (406 MHz ELTs must be registered by the owner in accordance with Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulation at www.beaconregistration.noaa.gov). Registration allows the search and rescue authorities to contact the beacon owner, or his or her designated alternate by telephone to determine if a real emergency exists. Therefore, a simple telephone call often solves a 406 MHz alerts without launching costly and limited search and rescue resources, which would have to be done for a 121.5 MHz alert. For these reasons, the search and rescue community is encouraging aircraft owners to consider retrofit of 406 MHz ELTs or at a minimum, consider the purchase of a handheld 406 MHz Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) which can be carried in the cockpit while continuing to maintain a fixed 121.5 MHz ELT mounted in the aircraft's tail. Protect yourself and your passengers and Get the Fix. Switch to 406. Remember, after February 1, 2009, the world-wide Cospas-Sarsat satellite system will no longer process 121.5 MHz alert signals. Pilots involved in aircraft accidents in remote areas will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations to hear emergency ELT distress signals. For further information concerning the termination of 121.5 MHz data processing visit www.sarsat.noaa.govor contact Switchto406@noaa.gov with any questions. Address SARSAT inquiries to: NOAA SARSAT NSOF. E/SP3 4231 SuitlandRoad Suitland, MD 20746 Phone: 301.817.4515 Toll free: 888.212.7283 Fax: 301.817.4565 ************************************************************************* ************** ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Good evening folks, This is not really a Commander topic per se, but aviation related, so forgive me for posting non-Commander topics here. :-) Can anyone give me a very high-level overview of how the older 121.5 MHz ELTs work in saving lives and facilitating rescue? I understand they are (or supposed to be) activated at a certain G loading and transmit an emergency signal on 121.5 MHz, which is/was monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. But which ELT was triggered? Do the ELTs transmit an identifying code? If so, what is it? The airplane's registration? Next, how do the search teams - say the good people at CASARA - locate the downed aircraft? Would the signal be picked up by an ADF, for example, and triangulated to pinpoint a search location? Tom Fisher, would you be able to help here? How does a CASARA search get organised? Who advises CASARA? Is there somebody manning the frequency? What happened pre-Cospas-Sarsat? Thanks for your help, Regards, Andrew href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/c ; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,http://www.matro================== =http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/con ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:38:21 PM PST US
    From: Bruce Campbell <brcamp@windows.microsoft.com>
    Subject: 121.5 MHz ELT
    The 121.5 just squeals. The 406 will give all kinds of info, including you r id (which can be related to contact and alternate contact info) and GPS position. From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew.bridget@telus.net Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:21 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Thank you, Tom and Bruce... Does each ELT have a unique signal (maybe in Mo rse)? Or is it just an unbroken transmit signal? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Campbell<mailto:brcamp@windows.microsoft.com> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT I did CAP search in Northern California for some years, and generally a 12 1.5 ELT signal didn't go very far in the sierra and siskyous (maybe only he arable directly above). The mode of finding it was generally to fly a ser ies of spiral search patterns on a grid until someone heard it, then look for the highest volume with AGC off on the radio. It was a time consumin g, and often as not futile process. Even when the signal could be pinpo inted, in the days before GPS it was only indicated by a DR with possibly ( but not often) some VOR bearings to go by. A 10 nm radius would have been wonderful. Of course the ELTs going off on some ramp were relatively easy to find, but still not quick or easy. For what its worth, AmeriKing's 406 ELT lists about $850. It may be a good idea to budget for an upgrade, as I will be doing. From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:44 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT As the Commander of CASARA for the South West of British Columbia I should have some knowledge about the subject in this area, I just wish that the so me intelligent decisions were being made by those who shut down the monitor ing of 121.5. In the past any 121.5 signal picked up by SARSAT system would be monitored on the ground. The position of the ELT signal would be narrowed down to a smaller area with each pass of the many satellites. The nearest SAR group would then be notified and search aircraft would be dispatched. In Canada, British Columbia, the local Military Joint Rescue Coordination C entre in Victoria would be notified of the presence of the ELT signal, they in turn would notify the CASARA Commander for that area (there are six are as in the Province) of British Columbia and depending on it's approximate l ocation (50 to 300 mile radius) would request dispatching whatever resource s it called for, usually a vehicle to a nuisance ELT at an airport otherwis e one or two aircraft with special homing equipment, (I have the equipment installed on my 680FLP), Search Pilot, Navigator and possibly one or two Sp otters all within an hour. If we can hear it, we can locate it although in mountainous terrain there a re a lot of reflective issues to deal with as well as power lines propagati ng the signal along that corridor. When an ELT is triggered either manually or with the "G" switch it just sta rts transmitting (and should not be turned off), it does not transmit any d ata regarding the source of the signal so all ELT's are hunted down with al l dispatch until we know what the source is. Things are different now as 121.5 is no longer being monitored even though less than 20% of the general aviation aircraft in North American have the n ew 406 ELT installed. Worst yet these 406 units must be registered and a l ot are not, if it is registered then your tail number name contact names an d numbers will all be available to SAR. When you buy a 406 ELT buy one tha t has an integrated GPS that will get search teams into a 10 nm area. Ther e is still a 121.5 signal emanating from the 406 ELT's for local homing (st ill required) but it is half the strength of the original 121.5 ELT's. Between the lines of asterisks below is a notice from NOAA SARSAT regarding 406 ELT's it is scary to say the least, I sure as hope all you guys have t hat third radio installed just to listen to 121.5. I hope this covers most of your questions. Tom C-GISS 680 FLP (Mr.RPM) *************************************************************************** ************ Termination of Satellite Monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELT's. - ARE YOU READY? Notice Number: NOTC1518 Termination of satellite monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELTs will happen in under a month. Are you ready? On 1 February 2009, the International Cospas-Sarsat [1] [1] Organization (U .S. included) will terminate processing of distress signals emitted by 121. 5 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitters (ELTs). Pilots flying aircraft equippe d with 121.5 MHz ELTs after that date will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations monitoring 121.5 to hear and report distress alert signals, transmitted from a possible crash site. Protect each other... Currently only 12-15% of the registered aircraft in the United States are flying with 406 MHz ELTs. This means that there is at least an 85% chance that an aircraft in an accident will only transmit a 121.5 MHz signal, thus remaining silent to the satellites. It will be up to other pilots monitor ing the 121.5 MHz frequency in the cockpit to alert Search and Rescue autho rities to accidents involving 121.5. When you fly, look out for your fello w pilots and when possible monitor 121.5 MHz. If a 121.5 MHz ELT is heard on guard, report to the nearest air traffic con trol tower, the time and location of when you first detect the ELT, when it is the loudest and when it drops off your radio. Listening and reporting may well be the difference that saves a life. Protect yourself... Cospas-Sarsat System (U.S. included) has been and will continue processing emergency signals transmitted by 406 MHz ELTs. These 5 Watt digital beacons transmit a much stronger signal, are more accurate, verifiable and traceab le to the registered beacon owner (406 MHz ELTs must be registered by the o wner in accordance with Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulation at www.beaconregistration.noaa.gov). Registration allows the search and res cue authorities to contact the beacon owner, or his or her designated alter nate by telephone to determine if a real emergency exists. Therefore, a sim ple telephone call often solves a 406 MHz alerts without launching costly a nd limited search and rescue resources, which would have to be done for a 1 21.5 MHz alert. For these reasons, the search and rescue community is encou raging aircraft owners to consider retrofit of 406 MHz ELTs or at a minimum , consider the purchase of a handheld 406 MHz Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) which can be carried in the cockpit while continuing to maintain a fixed 1 21.5 MHz ELT mounted in the aircraft's tail. Protect yourself and your pas sengers and Get the Fix... Switch to 406. Remember, after February 1, 2009, the world-wide Cospas-Sarsat satellite sy stem will no longer process 121.5 MHz alert signals. Pilots involved in air craft accidents in remote areas will have to depend on pilots of over flyin g aircraft and or ground stations to hear emergency ELT distress signals. For further information concerning the termination of 121.5 MHz data proces sing visit www.sarsat.noaa.gov<http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/>or contact Switc hto406@noaa.gov<mailto:Switchto406@noaa.gov> with any questions. Address SARSAT inquiries to: NOAA SARSAT NSOF. E/SP3 4231 SuitlandRoad Suitland, MD 20746 Phone: 301.817.4515 Toll free: 888.212.7283 Fax: 301.817.4565 *************************************************************************** ************ ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net<mailto:andrew.bridget@telus.net> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Good evening folks, This is not really a Commander topic per se, but aviation related, so forgi ve me for posting non-Commander topics here. :-) Can anyone give me a very high-level overview of how the older 121.5 MHz EL Ts work in saving lives and facilitating rescue? I understand they are (or supposed to be) activated at a certain G loading and transmit an emergency signal on 121.5 MHz, which is/was monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. But which ELT was triggered? Do the ELTs transmit an identifying co de? If so, what is it? The airplane's registration? Next, how do the search teams - say the good people at CASARA - locate the downed aircraft? Would the signal be picked up by an ADF, for example, and triangulated to pinpoi nt a search location? Tom Fisher, would you be able to help here? How does a CASARA search get organised? Who advises CASARA? Is there somebody mannin g the frequency? What happened pre-Cospas-Sarsat? Thanks for your help, Regards, Andrew href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, ________________________________


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:50:38 PM PST US
    From: <andrew.bridget@telus.net>
    Subject: Re: 121.5 MHz ELT
    Great! Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Campbell To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:37 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT The 121.5 just squeals. The 406 will give all kinds of info, including your id (which can be related to contact and alternate contact info) and GPS position. From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew.bridget@telus.net Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:21 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Thank you, Tom and Bruce... Does each ELT have a unique signal (maybe in Morse)? Or is it just an unbroken transmit signal? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Campbell To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT I did CAP search in Northern California for some years, and generally a 121.5 ELT signal didn't go very far in the sierra and siskyous (maybe only hearable directly above). The mode of finding it was generally to fly a series of spiral search patterns on a grid until someone heard it, then look for the highest volume with AGC off on the radio. It was a time consuming, and often as not futile process. Even when the signal could be pinpointed, in the days before GPS it was only indicated by a DR with possibly (but not often) some VOR bearings to go by. A 10 nm radius would have been wonderful. Of course the ELTs going off on some ramp were relatively easy to find, but still not quick or easy. For what its worth, AmeriKing's 406 ELT lists about $850. It may be a good idea to budget for an upgrade, as I will be doing. From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:44 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT As the Commander of CASARA for the South West of British Columbia I should have some knowledge about the subject in this area, I just wish that the some intelligent decisions were being made by those who shut down the monitoring of 121.5. In the past any 121.5 signal picked up by SARSAT system would be monitored on the ground. The position of the ELT signal would be narrowed down to a smaller area with each pass of the many satellites. The nearest SAR group would then be notified and search aircraft would be dispatched. In Canada, British Columbia, the local Military Joint Rescue Coordination Centre in Victoria would be notified of the presence of the ELT signal, they in turn would notify the CASARA Commander for that area (there are six areas in the Province) of British Columbia and depending on it's approximate location (50 to 300 mile radius) would request dispatching whatever resources it called for, usually a vehicle to a nuisance ELT at an airport otherwise one or two aircraft with special homing equipment, (I have the equipment installed on my 680FLP), Search Pilot, Navigator and possibly one or two Spotters all within an hour. If we can hear it, we can locate it although in mountainous terrain there are a lot of reflective issues to deal with as well as power lines propagating the signal along that corridor. When an ELT is triggered either manually or with the "G" switch it just starts transmitting (and should not be turned off), it does not transmit any data regarding the source of the signal so all ELT's are hunted down with all dispatch until we know what the source is. Things are different now as 121.5 is no longer being monitored even though less than 20% of the general aviation aircraft in North American have the new 406 ELT installed. Worst yet these 406 units must be registered and a lot are not, if it is registered then your tail number name contact names and numbers will all be available to SAR. When you buy a 406 ELT buy one that has an integrated GPS that will get search teams into a 10 nm area. There is still a 121.5 signal emanating from the 406 ELT's for local homing (still required) but it is half the strength of the original 121.5 ELT's. Between the lines of asterisks below is a notice from NOAA SARSAT regarding 406 ELT's it is scary to say the least, I sure as hope all you guys have that third radio installed just to listen to 121.5. I hope this covers most of your questions. Tom C-GISS 680 FLP (Mr.RPM) ************************************************************************* ************** Termination of Satellite Monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELT's. - ARE YOU READY? Notice Number: NOTC1518 Termination of satellite monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELTs will happen in under a month. Are you ready? On 1 February 2009, the International Cospas-Sarsat [1] [1] Organization (U.S. included) will terminate processing of distress signals emitted by 121.5 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitters (ELTs). Pilots flying aircraft equipped with 121.5 MHz ELTs after that date will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations monitoring 121.5 to hear and report distress alert signals, transmitted from a possible crash site. Protect each other. Currently only 12-15% of the registered aircraft in the United States are flying with 406 MHz ELTs. This means that there is at least an 85% chance that an aircraft in an accident will only transmit a 121.5 MHz signal, thus remaining silent to the satellites. It will be up to other pilots monitoring the 121.5 MHz frequency in the cockpit to alert Search and Rescue authorities to accidents involving 121.5. When you fly, look out for your fellow pilots and when possible monitor 121.5 MHz. If a 121.5 MHz ELT is heard on guard, report to the nearest air traffic control tower, the time and location of when you first detect the ELT, when it is the loudest and when it drops off your radio. Listening and reporting may well be the difference that saves a life. Protect yourself. Cospas-Sarsat System (U.S. included) has been and will continue processing emergency signals transmitted by 406 MHz ELTs. These 5 Watt digital beacons transmit a much stronger signal, are more accurate, verifiable and traceable to the registered beacon owner (406 MHz ELTs must be registered by the owner in accordance with Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulation at www.beaconregistration.noaa.gov). Registration allows the search and rescue authorities to contact the beacon owner, or his or her designated alternate by telephone to determine if a real emergency exists. Therefore, a simple telephone call often solves a 406 MHz alerts without launching costly and limited search and rescue resources, which would have to be done for a 121.5 MHz alert. For these reasons, the search and rescue community is encouraging aircraft owners to consider retrofit of 406 MHz ELTs or at a minimum, consider the purchase of a handheld 406 MHz Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) which can be carried in the cockpit while continuing to maintain a fixed 121.5 MHz ELT mounted in the aircraft's tail. Protect yourself and your passengers and Get the Fix. Switch to 406. Remember, after February 1, 2009, the world-wide Cospas-Sarsat satellite system will no longer process 121.5 MHz alert signals. Pilots involved in aircraft accidents in remote areas will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations to hear emergency ELT distress signals. For further information concerning the termination of 121.5 MHz data processing visit www.sarsat.noaa.govor contact Switchto406@noaa.gov with any questions. Address SARSAT inquiries to: NOAA SARSAT NSOF. E/SP3 4231 SuitlandRoad Suitland, MD 20746 Phone: 301.817.4515 Toll free: 888.212.7283 Fax: 301.817.4565 ************************************************************************* ************** ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Good evening folks, This is not really a Commander topic per se, but aviation related, so forgive me for posting non-Commander topics here. :-) Can anyone give me a very high-level overview of how the older 121.5 MHz ELTs work in saving lives and facilitating rescue? I understand they are (or supposed to be) activated at a certain G loading and transmit an emergency signal on 121.5 MHz, which is/was monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. But which ELT was triggered? Do the ELTs transmit an identifying code? If so, what is it? The airplane's registration? Next, how do the search teams - say the good people at CASARA - locate the downed aircraft? Would the signal be picked up by an ADF, for example, and triangulated to pinpoint a search location? Tom Fisher, would you be able to help here? How does a CASARA search get organised? Who advises CASARA? Is there somebody manning the frequency? What happened pre-Cospas-Sarsat? Thanks for your help, Regards, Andrew href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/c ; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----


    Message 11


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    Time: 02:06:27 PM PST US
    From: "L D GIROD" <dongirod@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: 121.5 MHz ELT
    Andrew; The way I remember it, sometimes when flying commercially, we would get a call from ATC asking us if we were receiving ELT signal, we would just dial in 121.5 and listen. If we did receive it, they would ask us to let them know if it was getting louder or fainter, and to let them know when we lost the signal. I guess this would give them some triangulation to pin point the location, often it was on a parked airplane on the airport, but sometimes was a legit signal. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:20 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Thank you, Tom and Bruce... Does each ELT have a unique signal (maybe in Morse)? Or is it just an unbroken transmit signal? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Campbell To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT I did CAP search in Northern California for some years, and generally a 121.5 ELT signal didn't go very far in the sierra and siskyous (maybe only hearable directly above). The mode of finding it was generally to fly a series of spiral search patterns on a grid until someone heard it, then look for the highest volume with AGC off on the radio. It was a time consuming, and often as not futile process. Even when the signal could be pinpointed, in the days before GPS it was only indicated by a DR with possibly (but not often) some VOR bearings to go by. A 10 nm radius would have been wonderful. Of course the ELTs going off on some ramp were relatively easy to find, but still not quick or easy. For what its worth, AmeriKing's 406 ELT lists about $850. It may be a good idea to budget for an upgrade, as I will be doing. From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:44 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT As the Commander of CASARA for the South West of British Columbia I should have some knowledge about the subject in this area, I just wish that the some intelligent decisions were being made by those who shut down the monitoring of 121.5. In the past any 121.5 signal picked up by SARSAT system would be monitored on the ground. The position of the ELT signal would be narrowed down to a smaller area with each pass of the many satellites. The nearest SAR group would then be notified and search aircraft would be dispatched. In Canada, British Columbia, the local Military Joint Rescue Coordination Centre in Victoria would be notified of the presence of the ELT signal, they in turn would notify the CASARA Commander for that area (there are six areas in the Province) of British Columbia and depending on it's approximate location (50 to 300 mile radius) would request dispatching whatever resources it called for, usually a vehicle to a nuisance ELT at an airport otherwise one or two aircraft with special homing equipment, (I have the equipment installed on my 680FLP), Search Pilot, Navigator and possibly one or two Spotters all within an hour. If we can hear it, we can locate it although in mountainous terrain there are a lot of reflective issues to deal with as well as power lines propagating the signal along that corridor. When an ELT is triggered either manually or with the "G" switch it just starts transmitting (and should not be turned off), it does not transmit any data regarding the source of the signal so all ELT's are hunted down with all dispatch until we know what the source is. Things are different now as 121.5 is no longer being monitored even though less than 20% of the general aviation aircraft in North American have the new 406 ELT installed. Worst yet these 406 units must be registered and a lot are not, if it is registered then your tail number name contact names and numbers will all be available to SAR. When you buy a 406 ELT buy one that has an integrated GPS that will get search teams into a 10 nm area. There is still a 121.5 signal emanating from the 406 ELT's for local homing (still required) but it is half the strength of the original 121.5 ELT's. Between the lines of asterisks below is a notice from NOAA SARSAT regarding 406 ELT's it is scary to say the least, I sure as hope all you guys have that third radio installed just to listen to 121.5. I hope this covers most of your questions. Tom C-GISS 680 FLP (Mr.RPM) ************************************************************************* ************** Termination of Satellite Monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELT's. - ARE YOU READY? Notice Number: NOTC1518 Termination of satellite monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELTs will happen in under a month. Are you ready? On 1 February 2009, the International Cospas-Sarsat [1] [1] Organization (U.S. included) will terminate processing of distress signals emitted by 121.5 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitters (ELTs). Pilots flying aircraft equipped with 121.5 MHz ELTs after that date will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations monitoring 121.5 to hear and report distress alert signals, transmitted from a possible crash site. Protect each other. Currently only 12-15% of the registered aircraft in the United States are flying with 406 MHz ELTs. This means that there is at least an 85% chance that an aircraft in an accident will only transmit a 121.5 MHz signal, thus remaining silent to the satellites. It will be up to other pilots monitoring the 121.5 MHz frequency in the cockpit to alert Search and Rescue authorities to accidents involving 121.5. When you fly, look out for your fellow pilots and when possible monitor 121.5 MHz. If a 121.5 MHz ELT is heard on guard, report to the nearest air traffic control tower, the time and location of when you first detect the ELT, when it is the loudest and when it drops off your radio. Listening and reporting may well be the difference that saves a life. Protect yourself. Cospas-Sarsat System (U.S. included) has been and will continue processing emergency signals transmitted by 406 MHz ELTs. These 5 Watt digital beacons transmit a much stronger signal, are more accurate, verifiable and traceable to the registered beacon owner (406 MHz ELTs must be registered by the owner in accordance with Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulation at www.beaconregistration.noaa.gov). Registration allows the search and rescue authorities to contact the beacon owner, or his or her designated alternate by telephone to determine if a real emergency exists. Therefore, a simple telephone call often solves a 406 MHz alerts without launching costly and limited search and rescue resources, which would have to be done for a 121.5 MHz alert. For these reasons, the search and rescue community is encouraging aircraft owners to consider retrofit of 406 MHz ELTs or at a minimum, consider the purchase of a handheld 406 MHz Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) which can be carried in the cockpit while continuing to maintain a fixed 121.5 MHz ELT mounted in the aircraft's tail. Protect yourself and your passengers and Get the Fix. Switch to 406. Remember, after February 1, 2009, the world-wide Cospas-Sarsat satellite system will no longer process 121.5 MHz alert signals. Pilots involved in aircraft accidents in remote areas will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations to hear emergency ELT distress signals. For further information concerning the termination of 121.5 MHz data processing visit www.sarsat.noaa.govor contact Switchto406@noaa.gov with any questions. Address SARSAT inquiries to: NOAA SARSAT NSOF. E/SP3 4231 SuitlandRoad Suitland, MD 20746 Phone: 301.817.4515 Toll free: 888.212.7283 Fax: 301.817.4565 ************************************************************************* ************** ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Good evening folks, This is not really a Commander topic per se, but aviation related, so forgive me for posting non-Commander topics here. :-) Can anyone give me a very high-level overview of how the older 121.5 MHz ELTs work in saving lives and facilitating rescue? I understand they are (or supposed to be) activated at a certain G loading and transmit an emergency signal on 121.5 MHz, which is/was monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. But which ELT was triggered? Do the ELTs transmit an identifying code? If so, what is it? The airplane's registration? Next, how do the search teams - say the good people at CASARA - locate the downed aircraft? Would the signal be picked up by an ADF, for example, and triangulated to pinpoint a search location? Tom Fisher, would you be able to help here? How does a CASARA search get organised? Who advises CASARA? Is there somebody manning the frequency? What happened pre-Cospas-Sarsat? Thanks for your help, Regards, Andrew href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/c ; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/con ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 12


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    Time: 02:08:05 PM PST US
    From: "L D GIROD" <dongirod@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: 121.5 MHz ELT
    Andrew; It is kind of a warble, like a capacitor charging and discharging.. ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Great! Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Campbell To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:37 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT The 121.5 just squeals. The 406 will give all kinds of info, including your id (which can be related to contact and alternate contact info) and GPS position. From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew.bridget@telus.net Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:21 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Thank you, Tom and Bruce... Does each ELT have a unique signal (maybe in Morse)? Or is it just an unbroken transmit signal? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Campbell To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT I did CAP search in Northern California for some years, and generally a 121.5 ELT signal didn't go very far in the sierra and siskyous (maybe only hearable directly above). The mode of finding it was generally to fly a series of spiral search patterns on a grid until someone heard it, then look for the highest volume with AGC off on the radio. It was a time consuming, and often as not futile process. Even when the signal could be pinpointed, in the days before GPS it was only indicated by a DR with possibly (but not often) some VOR bearings to go by. A 10 nm radius would have been wonderful. Of course the ELTs going off on some ramp were relatively easy to find, but still not quick or easy. For what its worth, AmeriKing's 406 ELT lists about $850. It may be a good idea to budget for an upgrade, as I will be doing. From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:44 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT As the Commander of CASARA for the South West of British Columbia I should have some knowledge about the subject in this area, I just wish that the some intelligent decisions were being made by those who shut down the monitoring of 121.5. In the past any 121.5 signal picked up by SARSAT system would be monitored on the ground. The position of the ELT signal would be narrowed down to a smaller area with each pass of the many satellites. The nearest SAR group would then be notified and search aircraft would be dispatched. In Canada, British Columbia, the local Military Joint Rescue Coordination Centre in Victoria would be notified of the presence of the ELT signal, they in turn would notify the CASARA Commander for that area (there are six areas in the Province) of British Columbia and depending on it's approximate location (50 to 300 mile radius) would request dispatching whatever resources it called for, usually a vehicle to a nuisance ELT at an airport otherwise one or two aircraft with special homing equipment, (I have the equipment installed on my 680FLP), Search Pilot, Navigator and possibly one or two Spotters all within an hour. If we can hear it, we can locate it although in mountainous terrain there are a lot of reflective issues to deal with as well as power lines propagating the signal along that corridor. When an ELT is triggered either manually or with the "G" switch it just starts transmitting (and should not be turned off), it does not transmit any data regarding the source of the signal so all ELT's are hunted down with all dispatch until we know what the source is. Things are different now as 121.5 is no longer being monitored even though less than 20% of the general aviation aircraft in North American have the new 406 ELT installed. Worst yet these 406 units must be registered and a lot are not, if it is registered then your tail number name contact names and numbers will all be available to SAR. When you buy a 406 ELT buy one that has an integrated GPS that will get search teams into a 10 nm area. There is still a 121.5 signal emanating from the 406 ELT's for local homing (still required) but it is half the strength of the original 121.5 ELT's. Between the lines of asterisks below is a notice from NOAA SARSAT regarding 406 ELT's it is scary to say the least, I sure as hope all you guys have that third radio installed just to listen to 121.5. I hope this covers most of your questions. Tom C-GISS 680 FLP (Mr.RPM) ************************************************************************* ************** Termination of Satellite Monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELT's. - ARE YOU READY? Notice Number: NOTC1518 Termination of satellite monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELTs will happen in under a month. Are you ready? On 1 February 2009, the International Cospas-Sarsat [1] [1] Organization (U.S. included) will terminate processing of distress signals emitted by 121.5 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitters (ELTs). Pilots flying aircraft equipped with 121.5 MHz ELTs after that date will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations monitoring 121.5 to hear and report distress alert signals, transmitted from a possible crash site. Protect each other. Currently only 12-15% of the registered aircraft in the United States are flying with 406 MHz ELTs. This means that there is at least an 85% chance that an aircraft in an accident will only transmit a 121.5 MHz signal, thus remaining silent to the satellites. It will be up to other pilots monitoring the 121.5 MHz frequency in the cockpit to alert Search and Rescue authorities to accidents involving 121.5. When you fly, look out for your fellow pilots and when possible monitor 121.5 MHz. If a 121.5 MHz ELT is heard on guard, report to the nearest air traffic control tower, the time and location of when you first detect the ELT, when it is the loudest and when it drops off your radio. Listening and reporting may well be the difference that saves a life. Protect yourself. Cospas-Sarsat System (U.S. included) has been and will continue processing emergency signals transmitted by 406 MHz ELTs. These 5 Watt digital beacons transmit a much stronger signal, are more accurate, verifiable and traceable to the registered beacon owner (406 MHz ELTs must be registered by the owner in accordance with Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulation at www.beaconregistration.noaa.gov). Registration allows the search and rescue authorities to contact the beacon owner, or his or her designated alternate by telephone to determine if a real emergency exists. Therefore, a simple telephone call often solves a 406 MHz alerts without launching costly and limited search and rescue resources, which would have to be done for a 121.5 MHz alert. For these reasons, the search and rescue community is encouraging aircraft owners to consider retrofit of 406 MHz ELTs or at a minimum, consider the purchase of a handheld 406 MHz Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) which can be carried in the cockpit while continuing to maintain a fixed 121.5 MHz ELT mounted in the aircraft's tail. Protect yourself and your passengers and Get the Fix. Switch to 406. Remember, after February 1, 2009, the world-wide Cospas-Sarsat satellite system will no longer process 121.5 MHz alert signals. Pilots involved in aircraft accidents in remote areas will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations to hear emergency ELT distress signals. For further information concerning the termination of 121.5 MHz data processing visit www.sarsat.noaa.govor contact Switchto406@noaa.gov with any questions. Address SARSAT inquiries to: NOAA SARSAT NSOF. E/SP3 4231 SuitlandRoad Suitland, MD 20746 Phone: 301.817.4515 Toll free: 888.212.7283 Fax: 301.817.4565 ************************************************************************* ************** ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Good evening folks, This is not really a Commander topic per se, but aviation related, so forgive me for posting non-Commander topics here. :-) Can anyone give me a very high-level overview of how the older 121.5 MHz ELTs work in saving lives and facilitating rescue? I understand they are (or supposed to be) activated at a certain G loading and transmit an emergency signal on 121.5 MHz, which is/was monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. But which ELT was triggered? Do the ELTs transmit an identifying code? If so, what is it? The airplane's registration? Next, how do the search teams - say the good people at CASARA - locate the downed aircraft? Would the signal be picked up by an ADF, for example, and triangulated to pinpoint a search location? Tom Fisher, would you be able to help here? How does a CASARA search get organised? Who advises CASARA? Is there somebody manning the frequency? What happened pre-Cospas-Sarsat? Thanks for your help, Regards, Andrew href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/c ; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 13


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    Time: 02:54:55 PM PST US
    From: <andrew.bridget@telus.net>
    Subject: Re: 121.5 MHz ELT
    Thanks, Don! ----- Original Message ----- From: L D GIROD To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Andrew; The way I remember it, sometimes when flying commercially, we would get a call from ATC asking us if we were receiving ELT signal, we would just dial in 121.5 and listen. If we did receive it, they would ask us to let them know if it was getting louder or fainter, and to let them know when we lost the signal. I guess this would give them some triangulation to pin point the location, often it was on a parked airplane on the airport, but sometimes was a legit signal. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:20 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Thank you, Tom and Bruce... Does each ELT have a unique signal (maybe in Morse)? Or is it just an unbroken transmit signal? ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Campbell To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT I did CAP search in Northern California for some years, and generally a 121.5 ELT signal didn't go very far in the sierra and siskyous (maybe only hearable directly above). The mode of finding it was generally to fly a series of spiral search patterns on a grid until someone heard it, then look for the highest volume with AGC off on the radio. It was a time consuming, and often as not futile process. Even when the signal could be pinpointed, in the days before GPS it was only indicated by a DR with possibly (but not often) some VOR bearings to go by. A 10 nm radius would have been wonderful. Of course the ELTs going off on some ramp were relatively easy to find, but still not quick or easy. For what its worth, AmeriKing's 406 ELT lists about $850. It may be a good idea to budget for an upgrade, as I will be doing. From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 12:44 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT As the Commander of CASARA for the South West of British Columbia I should have some knowledge about the subject in this area, I just wish that the some intelligent decisions were being made by those who shut down the monitoring of 121.5. In the past any 121.5 signal picked up by SARSAT system would be monitored on the ground. The position of the ELT signal would be narrowed down to a smaller area with each pass of the many satellites. The nearest SAR group would then be notified and search aircraft would be dispatched. In Canada, British Columbia, the local Military Joint Rescue Coordination Centre in Victoria would be notified of the presence of the ELT signal, they in turn would notify the CASARA Commander for that area (there are six areas in the Province) of British Columbia and depending on it's approximate location (50 to 300 mile radius) would request dispatching whatever resources it called for, usually a vehicle to a nuisance ELT at an airport otherwise one or two aircraft with special homing equipment, (I have the equipment installed on my 680FLP), Search Pilot, Navigator and possibly one or two Spotters all within an hour. If we can hear it, we can locate it although in mountainous terrain there are a lot of reflective issues to deal with as well as power lines propagating the signal along that corridor. When an ELT is triggered either manually or with the "G" switch it just starts transmitting (and should not be turned off), it does not transmit any data regarding the source of the signal so all ELT's are hunted down with all dispatch until we know what the source is. Things are different now as 121.5 is no longer being monitored even though less than 20% of the general aviation aircraft in North American have the new 406 ELT installed. Worst yet these 406 units must be registered and a lot are not, if it is registered then your tail number name contact names and numbers will all be available to SAR. When you buy a 406 ELT buy one that has an integrated GPS that will get search teams into a 10 nm area. There is still a 121.5 signal emanating from the 406 ELT's for local homing (still required) but it is half the strength of the original 121.5 ELT's. Between the lines of asterisks below is a notice from NOAA SARSAT regarding 406 ELT's it is scary to say the least, I sure as hope all you guys have that third radio installed just to listen to 121.5. I hope this covers most of your questions. Tom C-GISS 680 FLP (Mr.RPM) ************************************************************************* ************** Termination of Satellite Monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELT's. - ARE YOU READY? Notice Number: NOTC1518 Termination of satellite monitoring of 121.5 MHz ELTs will happen in under a month. Are you ready? On 1 February 2009, the International Cospas-Sarsat [1] [1] Organization (U.S. included) will terminate processing of distress signals emitted by 121.5 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitters (ELTs). Pilots flying aircraft equipped with 121.5 MHz ELTs after that date will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations monitoring 121.5 to hear and report distress alert signals, transmitted from a possible crash site. Protect each other. Currently only 12-15% of the registered aircraft in the United States are flying with 406 MHz ELTs. This means that there is at least an 85% chance that an aircraft in an accident will only transmit a 121.5 MHz signal, thus remaining silent to the satellites. It will be up to other pilots monitoring the 121.5 MHz frequency in the cockpit to alert Search and Rescue authorities to accidents involving 121.5. When you fly, look out for your fellow pilots and when possible monitor 121.5 MHz. If a 121.5 MHz ELT is heard on guard, report to the nearest air traffic control tower, the time and location of when you first detect the ELT, when it is the loudest and when it drops off your radio. Listening and reporting may well be the difference that saves a life. Protect yourself. Cospas-Sarsat System (U.S. included) has been and will continue processing emergency signals transmitted by 406 MHz ELTs. These 5 Watt digital beacons transmit a much stronger signal, are more accurate, verifiable and traceable to the registered beacon owner (406 MHz ELTs must be registered by the owner in accordance with Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulation at www.beaconregistration.noaa.gov). Registration allows the search and rescue authorities to contact the beacon owner, or his or her designated alternate by telephone to determine if a real emergency exists. Therefore, a simple telephone call often solves a 406 MHz alerts without launching costly and limited search and rescue resources, which would have to be done for a 121.5 MHz alert. For these reasons, the search and rescue community is encouraging aircraft owners to consider retrofit of 406 MHz ELTs or at a minimum, consider the purchase of a handheld 406 MHz Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) which can be carried in the cockpit while continuing to maintain a fixed 121.5 MHz ELT mounted in the aircraft's tail. Protect yourself and your passengers and Get the Fix. Switch to 406. Remember, after February 1, 2009, the world-wide Cospas-Sarsat satellite system will no longer process 121.5 MHz alert signals. Pilots involved in aircraft accidents in remote areas will have to depend on pilots of over flying aircraft and or ground stations to hear emergency ELT distress signals. For further information concerning the termination of 121.5 MHz data processing visit www.sarsat.noaa.govor contact Switchto406@noaa.gov with any questions. Address SARSAT inquiries to: NOAA SARSAT NSOF. E/SP3 4231 SuitlandRoad Suitland, MD 20746 Phone: 301.817.4515 Toll free: 888.212.7283 Fax: 301.817.4565 ************************************************************************* ************** ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:26 PM Subject: Commander-List: 121.5 MHz ELT Good evening folks, This is not really a Commander topic per se, but aviation related, so forgive me for posting non-Commander topics here. :-) Can anyone give me a very high-level overview of how the older 121.5 MHz ELTs work in saving lives and facilitating rescue? I understand they are (or supposed to be) activated at a certain G loading and transmit an emergency signal on 121.5 MHz, which is/was monitored by the Cospas-Sarsat satellite system. But which ELT was triggered? Do the ELTs transmit an identifying code? If so, what is it? The airplane's registration? Next, how do the search teams - say the good people at CASARA - locate the downed aircraft? Would the signal be picked up by an ADF, for example, and triangulated to pinpoint a search location? Tom Fisher, would you be able to help here? How does a CASARA search get organised? Who advises CASARA? Is there somebody manning the frequency? What happened pre-Cospas-Sarsat? Thanks for your help, Regards, Andrew href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h ttp://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"> http://www.matronics.com/c ; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,http://www.matronics.com/con ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c




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