Today's Message Index:
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1. 08:21 AM - Re: Re: It is time... (John Vormbaum)
2. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: It is time... (Jim Addington)
3. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: It is time... (Robert Feldtman)
4. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: It is time... (Jim Addington)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: It is time... |
I do think there is a problem inherent in the advance of the technology of
'arms'. When the framers wrote our founding documents, one man with a muzzle
loading musket would have a difficult time killing two people. But now it is
possible to quickly and efficiently kill lots more people faster. Virginia
Tech was 30 something people? Binghamton was 13, Alabama was 10 or eleven?
This wsn't done with a Peacemaker. Hundreds of rounds can be fired in
minutes. We're now seeing mass killings as a regular occurrence and it isn't
even registering, or if it is at all its seen as further evidence we need
easier access to more lethal weapons.
Steve,
The problem with your argument is that you're trying to alter the behavior
of psychotics by attacking inanimate tools. I have the ultimate logical leap
that would make all the above shootings disappear: let's make murder 100%
illegal! That'll fix it!
The 2nd amendment can't be limited because of the improvement of technology.
The founding fathers did not have muzzle loaders in mind when they framed
the 2nd Amendment. They had PEOPLE in mind. You can't put the genie back in
the bottle; limiting the law to peacemakers, for instance, still wouldn't
stop a nutball from getting his hands on anything he wanted. The Virginia
Tech shooting was perpetrated with a couple of run-of-the-mill handguns.
Carrying weapons on campus was already illegal. How did that work out for
the students that day? The 2nd Amendment is more valuable now than it was
back when it was first put forth. The true purpose of the 2nd Amendment
would have been more clearly demonstrated had ONE responsible student at VT
had his own handgun that day. Yes, people may have still been killed, but
one armed student could have put that shooting to a sudden and appropriate
end, and saved many lives. Even as a deterrent, an armed student might have
just kept the shooter holed up in another room while SWAT mobilized. What if
the shooter hadn't killed himself? The news choppers would have continued to
circle and the local SWAT team would have continued to manage their
"perimeter" while the school was kept in "lockdown". A well-prepared shooter
could have taken many dozens more victims with him. If a legally armed
teacher had killed Klebold & Harris at Columbine as soon as they started
shooting, how many copycat shootings would have ensued? Maybe none. I'm also
aware of the other side of the issue; it takes a strong sense of
responsibility and maturity to carry a lethal weapon. But the same sense of
responsibility is assumed when a driver's license is issued.
Robert A. Heinlein said it best: "An armed society is a polite society." Or
Andy Rooney on 60 Minutes: "I can kill someone just as dead with a baseball
bat or my car, but nobody is trying to stop me from driving to the ball
game."
In a world where cities are growing and population density is increasing,
CCW is more valid, not less. A quick Google search showed me some reports
that roughly 4.4% of the human population has reported psychotic behavior.
So in a city of 3 million people, does that mean there might be as many as
132,000 people ready to snap and do something crazy?
Nico: Come on, Steve. Nobody is going to shoot someone solely because there
is a gun in his hand. If there is enough motive and demeanor, a killing is
fixed, gun or not. Knowing the other guy might also be packing heat has been
proven to be an instant sedative.
Nico nails it right here. People kill. Take the guns, they use knives. Take
the knives, they use clubs. Take the clubs away and they'll use rocks or
their bare hands. You can't legislate human nature by taking the guns.
/John
PS: I'm a competitive shooter & enthusiast. Incidentally, my guns haven't
killed ANYONE.
_____
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: It is time... |
John,
You have hit it on the head. Any one that thinks the criminals are going to
run down and turn in their gun is certainly not thinking clearly, these are
people that don't obey the law to start with. They will just sit back and
laugh their heads off. Being unarmed just makes their job easer. I saw a
program on TV 20 years ago where they were interviewing a felon and he said
he was not supposed to own a gun but if you tell him what you want he can
get it within 24 hours and this was single shot to full automatic. The
reason fire power has increased over the years is because the fire power the
bad guys have has improved. If every one went through the CHL class and
found out the laws, got over the fear of guns and what the bad guys are
doing it would be better, even if they did not intend to carry. I think they
would be afraid not to carry when they found out what is really going on.
I learned a lot and it is scary what some of the bad guys do such as
bringing a battery powered drill and threaten to drill holes in your knee
caps if you don't tell them where things are they ask for.
It boils down to a matter of when second's count the police are only minutes
away. I may be wrong but I think there is one police officer per 1200
people.
I am such a red neck gun nut I was reluctant to add my two cents but her it
is.
Jim A
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Vormbaum
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 10:20 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: It is time...
I do think there is a problem inherent in the advance of the technology of
'arms'. When the framers wrote our founding documents, one man with a muzzle
loading musket would have a difficult time killing two people. But now it is
possible to quickly and efficiently kill lots more people faster. Virginia
Tech was 30 something people? Binghamton was 13, Alabama was 10 or eleven?
This wsn't done with a Peacemaker. Hundreds of rounds can be fired in
minutes. We're now seeing mass killings as a regular occurrence and it isn't
even registering, or if it is at all its seen as further evidence we need
easier access to more lethal weapons.
Steve,
The problem with your argument is that you're trying to alter the behavior
of psychotics by attacking inanimate tools. I have the ultimate logical leap
that would make all the above shootings disappear: let's make murder 100%
illegal! That'll fix it!
The 2nd amendment can't be limited because of the improvement of technology.
The founding fathers did not have muzzle loaders in mind when they framed
the 2nd Amendment. They had PEOPLE in mind. You can't put the genie back in
the bottle; limiting the law to peacemakers, for instance, still wouldn't
stop a nutball from getting his hands on anything he wanted. The Virginia
Tech shooting was perpetrated with a couple of run-of-the-mill handguns.
Carrying weapons on campus was already illegal. How did that work out for
the students that day? The 2nd Amendment is more valuable now than it was
back when it was first put forth. The true purpose of the 2nd Amendment
would have been more clearly demonstrated had ONE responsible student at VT
had his own handgun that day. Yes, people may have still been killed, but
one armed student could have put that shooting to a sudden and appropriate
end, and saved many lives. Even as a deterrent, an armed student might have
just kept the shooter holed up in another room while SWAT mobilized. What if
the shooter hadn't killed himself? The news choppers would have continued to
circle and the local SWAT team would have continued to manage their
"perimeter" while the school was kept in "lockdown". A well-prepared shooter
could have taken many dozens more victims with him. If a legally armed
teacher had killed Klebold & Harris at Columbine as soon as they started
shooting, how many copycat shootings would have ensued? Maybe none. I'm also
aware of the other side of the issue; it takes a strong sense of
responsibility and maturity to carry a lethal weapon. But the same sense of
responsibility is assumed when a driver's license is issued.
Robert A. Heinlein said it best: "An armed society is a polite society." Or
Andy Rooney on 60 Minutes: "I can kill someone just as dead with a baseball
bat or my car, but nobody is trying to stop me from driving to the ball
game."
In a world where cities are growing and population density is increasing,
CCW is more valid, not less. A quick Google search showed me some reports
that roughly 4.4% of the human population has reported psychotic behavior.
So in a city of 3 million people, does that mean there might be as many as
132,000 people ready to snap and do something crazy?
Nico: Come on, Steve. Nobody is going to shoot someone solely because there
is a gun in his hand. If there is enough motive and demeanor, a killing is
fixed, gun or not. Knowing the other guy might also be packing heat has been
proven to be an instant sedative.
Nico nails it right here. People kill. Take the guns, they use knives. Take
the knives, they use clubs. Take the clubs away and they'll use rocks or
their bare hands. You can't legislate human nature by taking the guns.
/John
PS: I'm a competitive shooter & enthusiast. Incidentally, my guns haven't
killed ANYONE.
_____
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==========
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==========
le, List Admin.
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s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: It is time... |
fyi ---
State Representative Joe Driver (R-Garland) would allow Concealed Handgun
Licensees to protect themselves on the campuses of public colleges and
universities. Campus settings are not "crime-free" zones. Adult students,
faculty, staff and visitors who are 21 or older, who pass an extensive state
and federal criminal records check, and who complete a rigorous handgun
training course, should not be denied their right to self-defense simply
because they study, live, work on or visit a college or university campus.
CHLs have been lawfully carrying handguns for protection virtually
everywhere in Texas for more than a dozen years, and there is no statistical
data or evidence that they would suddenly transform into irresponsible
criminals if legally allowed to enter a college or university setting.
This important self-defense reform needs to pass this year, before the
anti-gun extremists in Washington gain momentum that filters down to the
state level. Please call and email your State Representatives and urge them
to SUPPORT HB 1893 on the House floor and to OPPOSE any amendments not
supported by the bill sponsor.
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Steve W <steve2@sover.net> wrote:
> Agreed in principle Nico. I've approved of family packing when
> appropriate, and I know of a couple instances where friends and family both
> have only had to display some heat to turn away bad people intending to do
> harm. It is appropriate and constitutionally protected to be able to
> reasonably defend oneself.
>
> I do think there is a problem inherent in the advance of the technology of
> 'arms'. When the framers wrote our founding documents, one man with a muzzle
> loading musket would have a difficult time killing two people. But now it is
> possible to quickly and efficiently kill lots more people faster. Virginia
> Tech was 30 something people? Binghamton was 13, Alabama was 10 or eleven?
> This wsn't done with a Peacemaker. Hundreds of rounds can be fired in
> minutes. We're now seeing mass killings as a regular occurrence and it
> isn't even registering, or if it is at all its seen as further evidence we
> need easier access to more lethal weapons.
>
> The point Nico, is that while I am guaranteed the right to arms, does this
> right extend without limit? Its just odd how people have been completely
> inflexible and absolutist when it comes to some constitutional rights, yet
> perfectly willing to give up on others in the name of being kept safe from
> terrorist bad guys. Its that fear and safety thing again, maybe. Having easy
> and unlimited access to any and all weapons make one 'feel' safer, while at
> the same time on a macrocosmic scale increasing the likelyhood of being
> killed by them.
>
> You could perform a robbery or murder with a 38 special, or maybe defend
> yourself, but we're seeing something different happening now. I don't have
> answers, maybe only questions.
>
> Steve
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> *To:* commander-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 09, 2009 8:13 AM
> *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Re: It is time...
>
> Come on, Steve. Nobody is going to shoot someone solely because there is a
> gun in his hand. If there is enough motive and demeanor, a killing is fixed,
> gun or not. Knowing the other guy might also be packing heat has been proven
> to be an instant sedative.
>
> You would be much more inclined to seek peace with your neighbor through
> other means, even reasoning with him or getting to like 'new' country
> music, if you know he has the same hardware that you do. With gun control,
> you never know what he hides and what he is capable of doing knowing all you
> have is your cell phone with 911 on your speed dial.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Steve W
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 09, 2009 4:34 AM
> *To:* commander-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Re: It is time...
>
> Yes. We were set up as a Republic and should remain so. That's why it was
> so odd during the last administration to watch so called conservatives
> cheerleading the seizing and consolidation of Exexcutive and Federal power.
> It's a great idea if its your guy and in the name of keeping you safe, but
> no one seemed to consider it might not always be their guy and the rules
> were set up with the bigger picture in mind. Lower the bar for a President
> you like, allow him to bypass rule of law and courts, and then panic because
> the next one you don't like may inherit those similar powers.
>
> I don't know how one avoids having to read the Constitution and determining
> how to apply the thing. It took over a hundred years for folks to wonder if
> all men created equal meant women too. Two hundred years later some folks
> figured they couldn't have meant black people also? Naw...... At the time
> this looked like a new and activist interpretation to many, and maybe it
> was. Real freedom isn't just for things I like and approve of.
>
> Keep and bear arms. I'm in a bad mood with an itchy trigger finger and my
> neighbors playing that vapid 'new' country music again. Even with slugs, the
> pump 20 isn't a big enough threat. Can I keep a 105mm trained on his house
> 24 hours a day?
>
> Sooner or later Milt is going to form his Commander list posse and come to
> get me. If the land mines don't get him first, I've been mixing up home-made
> anthrax, with scrapings from glowing watches and baby poop. Sure to stop him
> dead in his tracks...... Is that protected?
>
> Are Federal drug laws ok? What do I care if someone is growing weed in
> their outhouse.
>
> It is very reassuring to hear of the exodus to Texas. God knows they've got
> the room. But what are you going to do about Austin?
>
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Robert Feldtman <bobf@feldtman.com>
> *To:* commander-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Friday, May 08, 2009 9:12 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Re: It is time...
>
> that's why the founders set up a Republic - each state has it's own
> autonomy - except what the constitution says in clear black and white. it is
> NOT a living document for interpretation. I suggest we all re-read that
> document.
> I've seen more "out of state" license plates here in Texas in the last
> three months than I have ever seen before. Has the exodus quietly begun?
> The Republic of Texas won't have GA user fees! And I can go back to
> carrying heat in the plane.
> bobf
>
> On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Steve W <steve2@sover.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I wasn't going to spoil it for David. He's a good sport. And Nico had
>> written a very well thought out post. Even Milt wrote a smart and well
>> balanced one. (Until the other one about the Militia guys maybe not being
>> wackos. They are wackos but should be left alone. And New England and
>> California? That's like mixing a New England version of the Waltons with
>> Baywatch.)
>>
>> That piece was written to inflame passion, anger and fear; and the real
>> author knew exactly what buttons to push to do so. There is such crazy assed
>> shit being said on all sides, but hardly anyone seems to care if what is
>> said is true or not. I remember pissing off a bunch of the far left about
>> ten years ago over an environmental and farming issue when I had to learn
>> the facts instead of parroting back the crap that was then coming through as
>> faxes.
>>
>> I learned people were less interested in the truth than reinforcing
>> something they already chose to believe. So a work program becomes evidence
>> of an evil plot designed to create an army of Obama supporters who will
>> seize power and make you honkies listen to better music and eat salad.
>>
>> It so often comes down to the manipulation and reinforcement of fear. Fear
>> of loss, fear for safety, and the constant warnings now from so many sources
>> pointing out new and dire threats. (I wonder, are pilots as a class more
>> vigilant to identification of threat.) I'm not going to sacrifice everything
>> that's best about us, pervert my values and live in perpetual fear because
>> we're threatened.
>>
>> To hell with political parties and the moronic sides they make people
>> take. But if a State wants to try some really, really stupid ideas and opt
>> out of Federal laws and programs, I think they should be allowed to. Like
>> now, if the citizens of Texas think guns are really too hard to get and want
>> to opt out of Federal laws designed to keep guns from bad guys, and
>> automatic weapons off the streets... Go for it. Give it a wack and see if if
>> you like it.
>>
>> I think much of the time it is less right and left than it is rural
>> sensibilities against city requirements. When we were just frontier and
>> people were spread out common sense and little interference makes more
>> sense. With you people breeding like rabbits, too much of the population is
>> packed together like sardines. I'm not so sure rural rules would work in
>> cities, and I wouldn't want to tell those folks what's best for them.
>> Likewise out in the sticks, I like being left alone.
>>
>> I'll quit now. Been working on a major project way too many weeks in a
>> row. A little punchy.
>>
>> (Note: the views above definately do not represent those of the swell
>> little company I work for.)
>>
>> Please resume your regular programming.
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
>> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:13 PM
>> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: It is time...
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> As much as I loved reading this, alas, it wasn't written by Kaiser. In
>>> fact,
>>> nobody knows who wrote it except for the signature "TPS". Bummer:
>>> http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/proportions.asp
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
>>> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David
>>> Owens
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 10:48 AM
>>> To: commander-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: It is time...
>>>
>>> --> <dowens@aerialviewpoint.com>
>>>
>>> "My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world.
>>> I
>>> hope you'll join with me as we try to change it."
>>> - Barack Obama
>>>
>>> History Unfolding
>>>
>>> I am a student of history. Professionally, I have written 15 books on
>>> history that have been published in six languages, and I have studied
>>> history all my life. I have come to think there is something monumentally
>>> large afoot, and I do not believe it is simply a banking crisis, or a
>>> mortgage crisis, or a credit crisis. Yes these exist, but they are merely
>>> single facets on a very large gemstone that is only now coming into a
>>> sharper focus.
>>>
>>> Something of historic proportions is happening. I can sense it because I
>>> know how it feels, smells, what it looks like, and how people react to
>>> it..
>>> Yes, a perfect storm may be brewing, but there is something happening
>>> within
>>> our country that has been evolving for about ten to fifteen years. The
>>> pace
>>> has dramatically quickened in the past two.
>>>
>>> We demand and then codify into law the requirement that our banks make
>>> massive loans to people we know they can never pay back? Why?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (JCS: Re above and below, I say in order to severlywound our country and
>>> our economy, and reduce our will to resist.)
>>>
>>>
>>> We learned just days ago that the Federal Reserve, which has little or no
>>> real oversight by anyone, has "loaned" two trillion dollars (that is
>>> $2,000,000,000,000) over the past few months, but will not tell us to
>>> whom
>>> or why or disclose the terms. That is our money. Yours and mine. And that
>>> is
>>> three times the $700 billion we all argued about so strenuously just this
>>> past September. Who has this money? Why do they have it? Why are the
>>> terms
>>> unavailable to us? Who asked for it? Who authorized it? I thought this
>>> was a
>>> government of "we the people," who loaned our powers to our elected
>>> leaders.
>>> Apparently not.
>>>
>>> We have spent two or more decades intentionally de-industrializing our
>>> economy. Why?
>>>
>>>
>>> We have intentionally dumbed down our schools, ignored our history, and
>>> no
>>> longer teach our founding documents, why we are exceptional, and why we
>>> are
>>> worth preserving. Students by and large cannot write, think critically,
>>> read, or articulate. Parents are not revolting, teachers are not
>>> picketing,
>>> school boards continue to back mediocrity. Why?
>>>
>>> We have now established the precedent of protesting every close election
>>> (violently in California over a proposition that is so controversial that
>>> it
>>> simply wants marriage to remain defined as between one man and one woman.
>>> Did you ever think such a thing possible just a decade ago?) We have
>>> corrupted our sacred political process by allowing unelected judges to
>>> write
>>> laws that radically change our way of life, and then mainstream Marxist
>>> groups like ACORN and others to turn our voting system into a banana
>>> republic. To what purpose?
>>>
>>> Now our mortgage industry is collapsing, housing prices are in free fall,
>>> major industries are failing, our banking system is on the verge of
>>> collapse, social security is nearly bankrupt, as is medicare and our
>>> entire
>>> government. Our education system is worse than a joke (I teach college
>>> and I
>>> know precisely what I am talking about) - the list is staggering in its
>>> length, breadth, and depth.. It is potentially 1929 x ten... And we are
>>> at
>>> war with an enemy we cannot even name for fear of offending people of the
>>> same religion, who, in turn, cannot wait to slit the throats of your
>>> children if they have the opportunity to do so.
>>>
>>> And finally, we have elected a man that no one really knows anything
>>> about,
>>> who has never run so much as a Dairy Queen, let alone a town as big
>>> asWasilla, Alaska . All of his associations and alliances are with real
>>> radicals in their chosen fields of employment, and everything we learn
>>> about
>>> him, drip by drip, is unsettling if not downright scary (Surely you have
>>> heard him speak about his idea to create and fund a mandatory civilian
>>> defense force stronger than our military for use inside our borders? No?
>>> Oh,
>>> of course. The media would never play that for you over and over and then
>>> demand he answer it. Sarah Palin's pregnant daughter and $150,000
>>> wardrobe
>>> are more important.)
>>>
>>> Mr. Obama's winning platform can be boiled down to one word: Change. Why?
>>>
>>> I have never been so afraid for my country and for my children as I am
>>> now.
>>>
>>> This man campaigned on bringing people together, something he has never,
>>> ever done in his professional life. In my assessment, Obama will divide
>>> us
>>> along philosophical lines, push us apart, and then try to realign the
>>> pieces
>>> into a new and different power structure. Change is indeed coming. And
>>> when
>>> it comes, you will never see the same nation again.
>>>
>>> And that is only the beginning..
>>>
>>> As a serious student of history, I thought I would never come to
>>> experience
>>> what the ordinary, moral German must have felt in the mid-1930s. In those
>>> times, the "savior" was a former smooth-talking rabble-rouser from the
>>> streets, about whom the average German knew next to nothing. What they
>>> should have known was that he was associated with groups that shouted,
>>> shoved, and pushed around people with whom they disagreed; he edged his
>>> way
>>> onto the political stage through great oratory. Conservative "losers"
>>> read
>>> it right now.
>>>
>>> And there were the promises. Economic times were tough, people were
>>> losing
>>> jobs, and he was a great speaker. And he smiled and frowned and waved a
>>> lot.
>>> And people, even newspapers, were afraid to speak out for fear that his
>>> "brown shirts" would bully and beat them into submission. Which they did
>>> -
>>> regularly. And then, he was duly elected to office, while a
>>> full-throttled
>>> economic crisis bloomed at hand - the Great Depression. Slowly, but
>>> surely
>>> he seized the controls of government power, person by person, department
>>> by
>>> department, bureaucracy by bureaucracy. The children of German citizens
>>> were
>>> at first, encouraged to join a Youth Movement in his name where they were
>>> taught exactly what to think. Later, they were required to do so. No Jews
>>> of
>>> course,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How did he get people on his side? He did it by promising jobs to the
>>> jobless, money to the money-less, and rewards for the military-industrial
>>> complex. He did it by indoctrinating the children, advocating gun
>>> control,
>>> health care for all, better wages, better jobs, and promising to
>>> re-instill
>>> pride once again in the country, across Europe , and across the world. He
>>> did it with a compliant media - did you know that? And he did this all in
>>> the name of justice and .... . .. change. And the people surely got what
>>> they voted for.
>>>
>>> If you think I am exaggerating, look it up. It's all there in the history
>>> books.
>>>
>>> So read your history books. Many people of conscience objected in 1933
>>> and
>>> were shouted down, called names, laughed at, and ridiculed. WhenWinston
>>> Churchill pointed out the obvious in the late 1930s while seated in the
>>> House of Lords in England (he was not yet Prime Minister), he was booed
>>> into
>>> his seat and called a crazy troublemaker. He was right, though. And the
>>> world came to regret that he was not listened to.
>>>
>>> Do not forget that Germany was the most educated, the most cultured
>>> country
>>> in Europe . It was full of music, art, museums, hospitals, laboratories,
>>> and
>>> universities. And yet, in less than six years (a shorter time span than
>>> just
>>> two terms of the U. S. presidency) it was rounding up its own citizens,
>>> killing others, abrogating its laws, turning children against parents,
>>> and
>>> neighbors against neighbors.. All with the best of intentions, of course.
>>> The road to Hell is paved with them.
>>>
>>> As a practical thinker, one not overly prone to emotional decisions, I
>>> have
>>> a choice: I can either believe what the objective pieces of evidence tell
>>> me
>>> (even if they make me cringe with disgust); I can believe what history is
>>> shouting to me from across the chasm of seven decades; or I can hope I am
>>> wrong by closing my eyes, having another latte, and ignoring what is
>>> transpiring around me..
>>>
>>> I choose to believe the evidence. No doubt some people will scoff at me,
>>> others laugh, or think I am foolish, naive, or both. To some degree,
>>> perhaps
>>> I am. But I have never been afraid to look people in the eye and tell
>>> them
>>> exactly what I believe-and why I believe it.
>>>
>>> I pray I am wrong. I do not think I am. Perhaps the only hope is our vote
>>> in
>>> the next elections.
>>>
>>> David Kaiser
>>>
>>> Jamestown , Rhode Island
>>>
>>> United States
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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| Subject: | Re: It is time... |
Every city, state and country that has banded guns has seen a big increase
in crime. If you go to the CHL class and work hard to get it you are not
going to do something stupid to lose it, plus, you know better what you can
do and had better not do. All the signs that say no guns allowed are telling
the crooks that this is a safe place to rob.
Jim
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert
Feldtman
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: It is time...
fyi ---
State Representative Joe Driver (R-Garland) would allow Concealed Handgun
Licensees to protect themselves on the campuses of public colleges and
universities. Campus settings are not "crime-free" zones. Adult students,
faculty, staff and visitors who are 21 or older, who pass an extensive state
and federal criminal records check, and who complete a rigorous handgun
training course, should not be denied their right to self-defense simply
because they study, live, work on or visit a college or university campus.
CHLs have been lawfully carrying handguns for protection virtually
everywhere in Texas for more than a dozen years, and there is no statistical
data or evidence that they would suddenly transform into irresponsible
criminals if legally allowed to enter a college or university setting.
This important self-defense reform needs to pass this year, before the
anti-gun extremists in Washington gain momentum that filters down to the
state level. Please call and email your State Representatives and urge them
to SUPPORT HB 1893 on the House floor and to OPPOSE any amendments not
supported by the bill sponsor.
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 11:47 AM, Steve W <steve2@sover.net> wrote:
Agreed in principle Nico. I've approved of family packing when appropriate,
and I know of a couple instances where friends and family both have only had
to display some heat to turn away bad people intending to do harm. It is
appropriate and constitutionally protected to be able to reasonably defend
oneself.
I do think there is a problem inherent in the advance of the technology of
'arms'. When the framers wrote our founding documents, one man with a muzzle
loading musket would have a difficult time killing two people. But now it is
possible to quickly and efficiently kill lots more people faster. Virginia
Tech was 30 something people? Binghamton was 13, Alabama was 10 or eleven?
This wsn't done with a Peacemaker. Hundreds of rounds can be fired in
minutes. We're now seeing mass killings as a regular occurrence and it isn't
even registering, or if it is at all its seen as further evidence we need
easier access to more lethal weapons.
The point Nico, is that while I am guaranteed the right to arms, does this
right extend without limit? Its just odd how people have been completely
inflexible and absolutist when it comes to some constitutional rights, yet
perfectly willing to give up on others in the name of being kept safe from
terrorist bad guys. Its that fear and safety thing again, maybe. Having easy
and unlimited access to any and all weapons make one 'feel' safer, while at
the same time on a macrocosmic scale increasing the likelyhood of being
killed by them.
You could perform a robbery or murder with a 38 special, or maybe defend
yourself, but we're seeing something different happening now. I don't have
answers, maybe only questions.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 8:13 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: It is time...
Come on, Steve. Nobody is going to shoot someone solely because there is a
gun in his hand. If there is enough motive and demeanor, a killing is fixed,
gun or not. Knowing the other guy might also be packing heat has been proven
to be an instant sedative.
You would be much more inclined to seek peace with your neighbor through
other means, even reasoning with him or getting to like 'new' country music,
if you know he has the same hardware that you do. With gun control, you
never know what he hides and what he is capable of doing knowing all you
have is your cell phone with 911 on your speed dial.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve W
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 4:34 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: It is time...
Yes. We were set up as a Republic and should remain so. That's why it was so
odd during the last administration to watch so called conservatives
cheerleading the seizing and consolidation of Exexcutive and Federal power.
It's a great idea if its your guy and in the name of keeping you safe, but
no one seemed to consider it might not always be their guy and the rules
were set up with the bigger picture in mind. Lower the bar for a President
you like, allow him to bypass rule of law and courts, and then panic because
the next one you don't like may inherit those similar powers.
I don't know how one avoids having to read the Constitution and determining
how to apply the thing. It took over a hundred years for folks to wonder if
all men created equal meant women too. Two hundred years later some folks
figured they couldn't have meant black people also? Naw...... At the time
this looked like a new and activist interpretation to many, and maybe it
was. Real freedom isn't just for things I like and approve of.
Keep and bear arms. I'm in a bad mood with an itchy trigger finger and my
neighbors playing that vapid 'new' country music again. Even with slugs, the
pump 20 isn't a big enough threat. Can I keep a 105mm trained on his house
24 hours a day?
Sooner or later Milt is going to form his Commander list posse and come to
get me. If the land mines don't get him first, I've been mixing up home-made
anthrax, with scrapings from glowing watches and baby poop. Sure to stop him
dead in his tracks...... Is that protected?
Are Federal drug laws ok? What do I care if someone is growing weed in their
outhouse.
It is very reassuring to hear of the exodus to Texas. God knows they've got
the room. But what are you going to do about Austin?
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert <mailto:bobf@feldtman.com> Feldtman
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: It is time...
that's why the founders set up a Republic - each state has it's own autonomy
- except what the constitution says in clear black and white. it is NOT a
living document for interpretation. I suggest we all re-read that document.
I've seen more "out of state" license plates here in Texas in the last three
months than I have ever seen before. Has the exodus quietly begun?
The Republic of Texas won't have GA user fees! And I can go back to carrying
heat in the plane.
bobf
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Steve W <steve2@sover.net> wrote:
I wasn't going to spoil it for David. He's a good sport. And Nico had
written a very well thought out post. Even Milt wrote a smart and well
balanced one. (Until the other one about the Militia guys maybe not being
wackos. They are wackos but should be left alone. And New England and
California? That's like mixing a New England version of the Waltons with
Baywatch.)
That piece was written to inflame passion, anger and fear; and the real
author knew exactly what buttons to push to do so. There is such crazy assed
shit being said on all sides, but hardly anyone seems to care if what is
said is true or not. I remember pissing off a bunch of the far left about
ten years ago over an environmental and farming issue when I had to learn
the facts instead of parroting back the crap that was then coming through as
faxes.
I learned people were less interested in the truth than reinforcing
something they already chose to believe. So a work program becomes evidence
of an evil plot designed to create an army of Obama supporters who will
seize power and make you honkies listen to better music and eat salad.
It so often comes down to the manipulation and reinforcement of fear. Fear
of loss, fear for safety, and the constant warnings now from so many sources
pointing out new and dire threats. (I wonder, are pilots as a class more
vigilant to identification of threat.) I'm not going to sacrifice everything
that's best about us, pervert my values and live in perpetual fear because
we're threatened.
To hell with political parties and the moronic sides they make people take.
But if a State wants to try some really, really stupid ideas and opt out of
Federal laws and programs, I think they should be allowed to. Like now, if
the citizens of Texas think guns are really too hard to get and want to opt
out of Federal laws designed to keep guns from bad guys, and automatic
weapons off the streets... Go for it. Give it a wack and see if if you like
it.
I think much of the time it is less right and left than it is rural
sensibilities against city requirements. When we were just frontier and
people were spread out common sense and little interference makes more
sense. With you people breeding like rabbits, too much of the population is
packed together like sardines. I'm not so sure rural rules would work in
cities, and I wouldn't want to tell those folks what's best for them.
Likewise out in the sticks, I like being left alone.
I'll quit now. Been working on a major project way too many weeks in a row.
A little punchy.
(Note: the views above definately do not represent those of the swell little
company I work for.)
Please resume your regular programming.
Steve
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:13 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: It is time...
As much as I loved reading this, alas, it wasn't written by Kaiser. In fact,
nobody knows who wrote it except for the signature "TPS". Bummer:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/proportions.asp
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David Owens
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: It is time...
--> <dowens@aerialviewpoint.com>
"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I
hope you'll join with me as we try to change it."
- Barack Obama
History Unfolding
I am a student of history. Professionally, I have written 15 books on
history that have been published in six languages, and I have studied
history all my life. I have come to think there is something monumentally
large afoot, and I do not believe it is simply a banking crisis, or a
mortgage crisis, or a credit crisis. Yes these exist, but they are merely
single facets on a very large gemstone that is only now coming into a
sharper focus.
Something of historic proportions is happening. I can sense it because I
know how it feels, smells, what it looks like, and how people react to it..
Yes, a perfect storm may be brewing, but there is something happening within
our country that has been evolving for about ten to fifteen years. The pace
has dramatically quickened in the past two.
We demand and then codify into law the requirement that our banks make
massive loans to people we know they can never pay back? Why?
(JCS: Re above and below, I say in order to severlywound our country and
our economy, and reduce our will to resist.)
We learned just days ago that the Federal Reserve, which has little or no
real oversight by anyone, has "loaned" two trillion dollars (that is
$2,000,000,000,000) over the past few months, but will not tell us to whom
or why or disclose the terms. That is our money. Yours and mine. And that is
three times the $700 billion we all argued about so strenuously just this
past September. Who has this money? Why do they have it? Why are the terms
unavailable to us? Who asked for it? Who authorized it? I thought this was a
government of "we the people," who loaned our powers to our elected leaders.
Apparently not.
We have spent two or more decades intentionally de-industrializing our
economy. Why?
We have intentionally dumbed down our schools, ignored our history, and no
longer teach our founding documents, why we are exceptional, and why we are
worth preserving. Students by and large cannot write, think critically,
read, or articulate. Parents are not revolting, teachers are not picketing,
school boards continue to back mediocrity. Why?
We have now established the precedent of protesting every close election
(violently in California over a proposition that is so controversial that it
simply wants marriage to remain defined as between one man and one woman.
Did you ever think such a thing possible just a decade ago?) We have
corrupted our sacred political process by allowing unelected judges to write
laws that radically change our way of life, and then mainstream Marxist
groups like ACORN and others to turn our voting system into a banana
republic. To what purpose?
Now our mortgage industry is collapsing, housing prices are in free fall,
major industries are failing, our banking system is on the verge of
collapse, social security is nearly bankrupt, as is medicare and our entire
government. Our education system is worse than a joke (I teach college and I
know precisely what I am talking about) - the list is staggering in its
length, breadth, and depth.. It is potentially 1929 x ten... And we are at
war with an enemy we cannot even name for fear of offending people of the
same religion, who, in turn, cannot wait to slit the throats of your
children if they have the opportunity to do so.
And finally, we have elected a man that no one really knows anything about,
who has never run so much as a Dairy Queen, let alone a town as big
asWasilla, Alaska . All of his associations and alliances are with real
radicals in their chosen fields of employment, and everything we learn about
him, drip by drip, is unsettling if not downright scary (Surely you have
heard him speak about his idea to create and fund a mandatory civilian
defense force stronger than our military for use inside our borders? No? Oh,
of course. The media would never play that for you over and over and then
demand he answer it. Sarah Palin's pregnant daughter and $150,000 wardrobe
are more important.)
Mr. Obama's winning platform can be boiled down to one word: Change. Why?
I have never been so afraid for my country and for my children as I am now.
This man campaigned on bringing people together, something he has never,
ever done in his professional life. In my assessment, Obama will divide us
along philosophical lines, push us apart, and then try to realign the pieces
into a new and different power structure. Change is indeed coming. And when
it comes, you will never see the same nation again.
And that is only the beginning..
As a serious student of history, I thought I would never come to experience
what the ordinary, moral German must have felt in the mid-1930s. In those
times, the "savior" was a former smooth-talking rabble-rouser from the
streets, about whom the average German knew next to nothing. What they
should have known was that he was associated with groups that shouted,
shoved, and pushed around people with whom they disagreed; he edged his way
onto the political stage through great oratory. Conservative "losers" read
it right now.
And there were the promises. Economic times were tough, people were losing
jobs, and he was a great speaker. And he smiled and frowned and waved a lot.
And people, even newspapers, were afraid to speak out for fear that his
"brown shirts" would bully and beat them into submission. Which they did -
regularly. And then, he was duly elected to office, while a full-throttled
economic crisis bloomed at hand - the Great Depression. Slowly, but surely
he seized the controls of government power, person by person, department by
department, bureaucracy by bureaucracy. The children of German citizens were
at first, encouraged to join a Youth Movement in his name where they were
taught exactly what to think. Later, they were required to do so. No Jews of
course,
How did he get people on his side? He did it by promising jobs to the
jobless, money to the money-less, and rewards for the military-industrial
complex. He did it by indoctrinating the children, advocating gun control,
health care for all, better wages, better jobs, and promising to re-instill
pride once again in the country, across Europe , and across the world. He
did it with a compliant media - did you know that? And he did this all in
the name of justice and .... . .. change. And the people surely got what
they voted for.
If you think I am exaggerating, look it up. It's all there in the history
books.
So read your history books. Many people of conscience objected in 1933 and
were shouted down, called names, laughed at, and ridiculed. WhenWinston
Churchill pointed out the obvious in the late 1930s while seated in the
House of Lords in England (he was not yet Prime Minister), he was booed into
his seat and called a crazy troublemaker. He was right, though. And the
world came to regret that he was not listened to.
Do not forget that Germany was the most educated, the most cultured country
in Europe . It was full of music, art, museums, hospitals, laboratories, and
universities. And yet, in less than six years (a shorter time span than just
two terms of the U. S. presidency) it was rounding up its own citizens,
killing others, abrogating its laws, turning children against parents, and
neighbors against neighbors.. All with the best of intentions, of course.
The road to Hell is paved with them.
As a practical thinker, one not overly prone to emotional decisions, I have
a choice: I can either believe what the objective pieces of evidence tell me
(even if they make me cringe with disgust); I can believe what history is
shouting to me from across the chasm of seven decades; or I can hope I am
wrong by closing my eyes, having another latte, and ignoring what is
transpiring around me..
I choose to believe the evidence. No doubt some people will scoff at me,
others laugh, or think I am foolish, naive, or both. To some degree, perhaps
I am. But I have never been afraid to look people in the eye and tell them
exactly what I believe-and why I believe it.
I pray I am wrong. I do not think I am. Perhaps the only hope is our vote in
the next elections.
David Kaiser
Jamestown , Rhode Island
United States
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