Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:54 AM - Very moving... (nico css)
2. 09:25 AM - Re: Very moving... (Bruce Campbell)
3. 09:57 AM - Re: Very moving... (nico css)
4. 10:16 AM - Re: Very moving... (Bruce Campbell)
5. 10:17 AM - Re: Very moving... (Robert S. Randazzo)
6. 10:53 AM - Re: Very moving... (L D GIROD)
7. 12:48 PM - Re: Very moving... ()
8. 12:48 PM - Re: Very moving... (Robert Feldtman)
9. 01:34 PM - Re: Very moving... (Bruce Campbell)
10. 01:42 PM - Re: Very moving... (Steve at Col-East)
11. 02:05 PM - Re: Very moving... (nico css)
12. 03:08 PM - Re: Very moving... (Jim Addington)
13. 03:42 PM - Re: Very moving... ()
14. 05:43 PM - Re: Very moving... (L D GIROD)
Message 1
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http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
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I didn't get it. What were they wanting? "Fairness"? That's become a code
-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that was wh
at they were wanting. (things like "my dad is making what my granddad did,
and CEOs make millions")
The problem is, of course, that even if they weren't (and given the high Ho
llywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that way.
Personally, I'm tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading propa
ganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed spectac
ularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of deaths result
ing. The government is not your friend. In the long run it will never he
lp you. Even when it does, it's a trap.
Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FAA.
That's socialism.
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Very moving...
http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
Message 3
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Man, did I get raked over the coals for this! And, looking back, perhaps
rightly so. I didn't particularly follow the words nor did I read it off the
site. All the shot-backs had the same theme, so I must accept that I totally
misread the context.
Sorry about that.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce
Campbell
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
I didn't get it. What were they wanting? "Fairness"? That's become a
code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that was
what they were wanting. (things like "my dad is making what my granddad did,
and CEOs make millions")
The problem is, of course, that even if they weren't (and given the high
Hollywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that way.
Personally, I'm tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading
propaganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed
spectacularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of deaths
resulting. The government is not your friend. In the long run it will
never help you. Even when it does, it's a trap.
Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FAA.
That's socialism.
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Very moving...
http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,
FAQ,
Message 4
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No worries, but man, are they getting sneaky. The theme seemed to be:
Communism: The Way to Be American!
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
Man, did I get raked over the coals for this! And, looking back, perhaps ri
ghtly so. I didn't particularly follow the words nor did I read it off the
site. All the shot-backs had the same theme, so I must accept that I totall
y misread the context.
Sorry about that.
Nico
________________________________
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Campbell
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
I didn't get it. What were they wanting? "Fairness"? That's become a code
-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that was wh
at they were wanting. (things like "my dad is making what my granddad did,
and CEOs make millions")
The problem is, of course, that even if they weren't (and given the high Ho
llywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that way.
Personally, I'm tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading propa
ganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed spectac
ularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of deaths result
ing. The government is not your friend. In the long run it will never he
lp you. Even when it does, it's a trap.
Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FAA.
That's socialism.
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Very moving...
http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,
FAQ,
Message 5
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Bruce-
Actually- The FAA has never advocated state ownership of airlines and
aircraft. So having the FAA run the government wouldn't be socialism.
We agree that it would be bad, however.
Just thought I'd point that out. J
Do not archive
Robert S. Randazzo
N414C
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce
Campbell
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
I didn't get it. What were they wanting? "Fairness"? That's become a
code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that was
what they were wanting. (things like "my dad is making what my granddad did,
and CEOs make millions")
The problem is, of course, that even if they weren't (and given the high
Hollywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that way.
Personally, I'm tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading
propaganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed
spectacularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of deaths
resulting. The government is not your friend. In the long run it will
never help you. Even when it does, it's a trap.
Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FAA.
That's socialism.
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Very moving...
http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,
FAQ,
http://www.matro===================</p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
http://forums.matronics.com</bsp; - List Contribution Web Sitenbsp;
-Matt
Drallehref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/
con
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Very moving... |
Nico;
Not me, I read the words and I listened to the words.
I don't see socialism in the song, I see a lot of Americans with a
legitimate gripe. I think if you just look at the recent 'stimulus
package' you can understand. Ask yourself, who's money is it and who is
it going too.
And I am doing quite well thank you, but I agree with them in principle.
I know lots and lots of young parents that are unemployed and
struggling through no fault of their own, many college educated, some
not.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
Man, did I get raked over the coals for this! And, looking back,
perhaps rightly so. I didn't particularly follow the words nor did I
read it off the site. All the shot-backs had the same theme, so I must
accept that I totally misread the context.
Sorry about that.
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce
Campbell
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
I didn't get it. What were they wanting? "Fairness"? That's become a
code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that
was what they were wanting. (things like "my dad is making what my
granddad did, and CEOs make millions")
The problem is, of course, that even if they weren't (and given the
high Hollywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted
that way.
Personally, I'm tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading
propaganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed
spectacularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of
deaths resulting. The government is not your friend. In the long run
it will never help you. Even when it does, it's a trap.
Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the
FAA. That's socialism.
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM
To: 'Arthur White'
Subject: Commander-List: Very moving...
http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse,
Chat, FAQ,http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/con
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Very moving... |
Nico,
thanks for this post. It is, as you say, very touching. I know you've
had comments about socialism, but, when you have time to read this long
reply, this is what I have to say...
The second line about the guy's job being shipped off to China touched a
nerve. Yet while I agree with what is said here my experience is that
some (maybe just a few) in the world today look to this and see "China"
as the enemy, and indeed, the Chinese too. I say this because I had a
nasty experience a while ago - I was in a line-up to pay for groceries
and a woman asked me if Rebecca was mine or somebody else's. I proudly -
naturally - said she was mine; that Bridget and I adopted her from
Jiangxi province in early 2006. I must admit I did not expect the
response I got; that "The [Canadian] government is allowing our jobs to
be shipped there; now you're bringing them [the Chinese] here to take
what few of our jobs remain."
My initial reaction was to tell her go forth and multiply - although not
quite in those words - but I held back and said nothing. After I
simmered down I tried to look at it from her side. What she said was
uncalled for, yes, but she must have lost her job to be so bitter to
make a comment like that. which, in turn, got me thinking about the
state of the world and why we are losing our jobs to developing nations.
The conclusion I came to was it was our fault - we have an overwhelming
desire for more for less, even when we don't need it. We want to eat our
cake and still have it after we have eaten it. Not all of us, I hasten
to add, but many of us to varying extents. Most things are made in
China: China has low cost of living, lots of human rights infringements
and blatant abuses, terrible working conditions, poor pay, and, as a
result, can produce things cheaply. We buy them. We pay ten times (or
more) the price it cost the supplier to buy them and, for us, it is
still a bargain. And it is not just products: services too. Call centres
are being shipped to India and the Philippines because labour costs are
lower. Why? Because in today's world, a company has to be hugely
profitable to survive. Shareholders want big profits. And we are the
shareholders.
Wal-Mart is a case in point. It is hugely successful. We shop there.
Why? Because it is cheap. Because most of its products are from China.
And who shops there? We do. We are the people who are contributing to
our own downfall because we want more for less. But will I (me
personally) stop shopping at Wal Mart? No. I want the things I buy. I
may not need them, but I want them. Do I really need that movie? No. Do
I need that rod, reel, Camping equipment that I bought the other day?
No. But I wanted them, so I bought them.
To get philosophical, the world is in equilibrium, something that the
Chinese worked out long ago with their philosophy of Yin and Yang. There
is balance. When we make money, we take it from somewhere else: be it a
person or enterprise. It is the same with jobs. When we gain a job from
somewhere, usually it is because it has been lost elsewhere. So how do
we stop it? Governments could introduce protectionist policies and stop
the so-called free trade. Which means the developing nations will
suffer, and developed nations will continue in isolation until inflation
takes them over.
So what's the solution? I don't know. Human nature is to look after
ourselves, not others. What if we turned it on its head? Not that it
will ever happen, but what if everybody in this world had an instant and
permanent mind-shift: instead human nature became looking after others
to our own expense? As I said, not that it is likely to ever happen, but
think about it. We, very quickly, would become equal. Instead of me
looking after myself, I would have 6.7 billion people (less one - me) to
look after. But instead of just having me looking after me, I would have
6.7 billion (less one) people looking after me. Is that socialism? I
suppose it is. And socialism is fine if only everybody is equal and
everybody wants it to the same degree.
And now for the bombshell - socialism is like a Twin Commander - its
heaven if every part of the aircraft works in perfect harmony, but hell
if one part breaks down. <grin!>
God bless,
Andrew
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: 'Arthur White'
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Very moving...
http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Very moving... |
Nico - you are a leader.... maintain the stance!
heat only gets rid of the dross and allows the pure metal to come out
I admire you brother - I drink coffee out of your mugs every monring!
bobf
On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:59 AM, nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com> wrote
:
> Man, did I get raked over the coals for this! And, looking back, perhaps
> rightly so. I didn't particularly follow the words nor did I read it off
the
> site. All the shot-backs had the same theme, so I must accept that I tota
lly
> misread the context.
>
> Sorry about that.
>
> Nico
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Bruce Campbell
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM
> *To:* commander-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
>
> I didn=92t get it. What were they wanting? =93Fairness=94? That=92s be
come a
> code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that
was
> what they were wanting. (things like =93my dad is making what my granddad
did,
> and CEOs make millions=94)
>
>
> The problem is, of course, that even if they weren=92t (and given the hig
h
> Hollywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that w
ay.
>
>
> Personally, I=92m tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading
> propaganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed
> spectacularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of deat
hs
> resulting. The government is not your friend. In the long run it will
> never help you. Even when it does, it=92s a trap.
>
>
> Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FA
A.
> That=92s socialism.
>
>
> *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *nico css
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM
> *To:* 'Arthur White'
> *Subject:* Commander-List: Very moving...
>
>
> http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
>
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> ; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat
, FAQ,
>
> http://www.matro==================
>
> http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/con
>
> * *
>
> *
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
*
>
> *
>
===========
w.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
===========
===========
com/contribution
===========
> *
>
>
Message 9
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That last line bothered me. Just a resonse.
Socialism is not like a Twin Commander of any variety. And even if it worke
d "perfectly", Its evil.
Whatever the intentions of the people who take over a functioning society a
nd socialize it, the whole thing is based on the idea that people don't pro
duce, they receive it form someone else. In other words, they take as given
that there is some supply of wealth, a big pot of gold, that is being sat
on by the "rich", which can be "shared" by the government , and "that's fai
r".
The natural state of man is poverty. We only get anything because some col
lective "we" produce stuff. That "we" is ultimately the individual, becaus
e there isn't anyone else who's going to do it. Everything we get is beca
use of the wealth that each individual produces. There is no pot of gold.
Instead, people produce and sell a good or service to someone else, who pay
s them approximately what its worth.
As a software engineer for some years, I can attest that most of the time (
almost always) people get back (on average) pretty much what they put in.
Most of the time apparent "unfairness" comes from a failure to understand w
hat the value is that one is produce. Case in point: when the German Democr
atic Republic fell, the CIA (and the DDR ministry of Industry) valued their
economy at about 70% of the value of the German Federal Republic's, on a p
er capita basis. They all based this on the ministry of industry figures w
hich were in turn based on (pretty much accurate) reports of production at
the factory level. By these estimates Trabant was creating more value tha
n Volkswagen.
It wasn't until the DDR fell that it became clear what the fallacy is: A T
rabant is *not* a Volkswagen. In fact, the value of a Trabant when people
had the choice whether or not to buy them was less than the scrap value of
the metal. Every day Trabant workers would come to work, take perfectly goo
d steel and reduce its value by producing a Trabant. They *thought* they w
ere producing, but in fact they were detracting from the national wealth.
The solution ultimately was to shut down Trabant. VW hired and retrained
the workers and now they actually produce something when they go to work. I
n a capitalist system, a company (like GM) that produces inferior goods, or
the wrong goods, will eventually go bankrupt. The stockholders will pay fo
r their folly, and the workers will get rehired doing something more valuab
le. In a socialist system, the State pours more and more resources down a
rat hole.
Socialism removes these signals from the system. Worse than that, it makes
the political system rather than individuals choices the decision maker in
the allocation of resources. This both makes poor decisions in allocation
, but it also corrupts the political system.
Beyond that, it makes each individual a burden, rather than an asset. Ever
wondered why every socialist state since the French revolution has murdere
d a major portion of their population? Simple. Since the State has to sup
port everyone, and since in such a system output falls consistently, ther
e comes the time when rationing is necessary. Since the State doesn't know
how to create wealth (modern socialist states have lived by imitating the i
nventions of the capitalists) it must shed burden. So, eventually, it is ne
cessary to choose who will live and who won't. Just consider the Obama adm
inistrations plans for "reducing costs in the medical system because we are
spending too much". The "savings" are to decide which treatments are "co
st effective", at least partially on the basis of age. The result is that
a 70 year old who could live decades of productive life will be denied medi
cal care because he isn't cost effective, even if it kill him. The Canad
ian cancer mortality rate is another good example. Of course, a lot of soc
ialist governments have been rather more aggressive in "rationing", like th
e 20 million Russians starved to death during the 30s, the people sent to t
he gas in Poland and Germany, the mass starvation and mass executions in Ch
ina, Vietnam, Cambodia, and so many other "paradises".
Finally, since the government becomes the fount from which all resources co
me, serving and manipulating the government becomes, by necessity, the prim
ary activity of everyone. So government the fair arbiter becomes governmen
t the aggressive advocate for whomever has grabbed the power this week. El
ections become corrupt because its *worth* a billion dollars to control the
presidency or congress, etc. Of course, when you put a billion dollars in
, you want at least that much out. So the job of government becomes collec
ting taxes, essentially at gun point to subsidize those who put the current
government in power, with little consideration for a benefit back to thos
e people.
In short, you have a ghastly mess. And it happens every time.
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of andrew.bridget@telus.net
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Very moving...
Nico,
thanks for this post. It is, as you say, very touching. I know you've had c
omments about socialism, but, when you have time to read this long reply, t
his is what I have to say...
The second line about the guy's job being shipped off to China touched a ne
rve. Yet while I agree with what is said here my experience is that some (m
aybe just a few) in the world today look to this and see "China" as the ene
my, and indeed, the Chinese too. I say this because I had a nasty experienc
e a while ago - I was in a line-up to pay for groceries and a woman asked m
e if Rebecca was mine or somebody else's. I proudly - naturally - said she
was mine; that Bridget and I adopted her from Jiangxi province in early 200
6. I must admit I did not expect the response I got; that "The [Canadian] g
overnment is allowing our jobs to be shipped there; now you're bringing the
m [the Chinese] here to take what few of our jobs remain."
My initial reaction was to tell her go forth and multiply - although not qu
ite in those words - but I held back and said nothing. After I simmered dow
n I tried to look at it from her side. What she said was uncalled for, yes,
but she must have lost her job to be so bitter to make a comment like that
... which, in turn, got me thinking about the state of the world and why we
are losing our jobs to developing nations.
The conclusion I came to was it was our fault - we have an overwhelming des
ire for more for less, even when we don't need it. We want to eat our cake
and still have it after we have eaten it. Not all of us, I hasten to add, b
ut many of us to varying extents. Most things are made in China: China has
low cost of living, lots of human rights infringements and blatant abuses,
terrible working conditions, poor pay, and, as a result, can produce things
cheaply. We buy them. We pay ten times (or more) the price it cost the sup
plier to buy them and, for us, it is still a bargain. And it is not just pr
oducts: services too. Call centres are being shipped to India and the Phili
ppines because labour costs are lower. Why? Because in today's world, a com
pany has to be hugely profitable to survive. Shareholders want big profits.
And we are the shareholders.
Wal-Mart is a case in point. It is hugely successful. We shop there. Why? B
ecause it is cheap. Because most of its products are from China. And who sh
ops there? We do. We are the people who are contributing to our own downfal
l because we want more for less. But will I (me personally) stop shopping a
t Wal Mart? No. I want the things I buy. I may not need them, but I want th
em. Do I really need that movie? No. Do I need that rod, reel, Camping equi
pment that I bought the other day? No. But I wanted them, so I bought them.
To get philosophical, the world is in equilibrium, something that the Chine
se worked out long ago with their philosophy of Yin and Yang. There is bala
nce. When we make money, we take it from somewhere else: be it a person or
enterprise. It is the same with jobs. When we gain a job from somewhere, us
ually it is because it has been lost elsewhere. So how do we stop it? Gover
nments could introduce protectionist policies and stop the so-called free t
rade. Which means the developing nations will suffer, and developed nations
will continue in isolation until inflation takes them over.
So what's the solution? I don't know. Human nature is to look after ourselv
es, not others. What if we turned it on its head? Not that it will ever hap
pen, but what if everybody in this world had an instant and permanent mind-
shift: instead human nature became looking after others to our own expense?
As I said, not that it is likely to ever happen, but think about it. We, v
ery quickly, would become equal. Instead of me looking after myself, I woul
d have 6.7 billion people (less one - me) to look after. But instead of jus
t having me looking after me, I would have 6.7 billion (less one) people lo
oking after me. Is that socialism? I suppose it is. And socialism is fine i
f only everybody is equal and everybody wants it to the same degree.
And now for the bombshell - socialism is like a Twin Commander - its heaven
if every part of the aircraft works in perfect harmony, but hell if one pa
rt breaks down. <grin!>
God bless,
Andrew
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css<mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Very moving...
http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
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Subject: | Re: Very moving... |
Hey Nico, chart your own course and go with what your own heart and head
tell you.
You won't always be popular(!) but you'll be a free man.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
Man, did I get raked over the coals for this! And, looking back,
perhaps rightly so. I didn't particularly follow the words nor did I
read it off the site. All the shot-backs had the same theme, so I must
accept that I totally misread the context.
Sorry about that.
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce
Campbell
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
I didn't get it. What were they wanting? "Fairness"? That's become a
code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that
was what they were wanting. (things like "my dad is making what my
granddad did, and CEOs make millions")
The problem is, of course, that even if they weren't (and given the
high Hollywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted
that way.
Personally, I'm tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading
propaganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed
spectacularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of
deaths resulting. The government is not your friend. In the long run
it will never help you. Even when it does, it's a trap.
Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the
FAA. That's socialism.
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM
To: 'Arthur White'
Subject: Commander-List: Very moving...
http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse,
Chat, FAQ,http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/con
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 11
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That's my motto also, Steve.
However, when I send stuff out that I haven't read but was moved by the nice
tune, then I need to get slapped on the upside of the head. There were no
lack of volunteers. I like it when people speak their minds. I don't get
offended. If I am wrong, I'll be the first to admit it and learn. If I am
right, well, everyone should just deal with it. I afford friend and foe the
same I take for myself.
Thanks
Nico
PS. You should be more liberal, Steve. I can't handle you when you get all
conservative on me. :-)
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve at
Col-East
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Very moving...
Hey Nico, chart your own course and go with what your own heart and head
tell you.
You won't always be popular(!) but you'll be a free man.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: nico <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com> css
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
Man, did I get raked over the coals for this! And, looking back, perhaps
rightly so. I didn't particularly follow the words nor did I read it off the
site. All the shot-backs had the same theme, so I must accept that I totally
misread the context.
Sorry about that.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce
Campbell
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
I didn't get it. What were they wanting? "Fairness"? That's become a
code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that was
what they were wanting. (things like "my dad is making what my granddad did,
and CEOs make millions")
The problem is, of course, that even if they weren't (and given the high
Hollywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that way.
Personally, I'm tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading
propaganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed
spectacularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of deaths
resulting. The government is not your friend. In the long run it will
never help you. Even when it does, it's a trap.
Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FAA.
That's socialism.
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Very moving...
http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,
FAQ,
Message 12
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Nico, don't feel like the lone stranger, I fell for it too.
Jim
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:59 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
Man, did I get raked over the coals for this! And, looking back, perhaps
rightly so. I didn't particularly follow the words nor did I read it off the
site. All the shot-backs had the same theme, so I must accept that I totally
misread the context.
Sorry about that.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce
Campbell
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
I didn't get it. What were they wanting? "Fairness"? That's become a
code-word for socialism. And listening to the words it sounded like that was
what they were wanting. (things like "my dad is making what my granddad did,
and CEOs make millions")
The problem is, of course, that even if they weren't (and given the high
Hollywood count I suspect it was) these things can get interpreted that way.
Personally, I'm tired of ignorant Hollywood weenies making misleading
propaganda trying to romanticize the slide into a system that has failed
spectacularly everywhere it has been tried, usually with millions of deaths
resulting. The government is not your friend. In the long run it will
never help you. Even when it does, it's a trap.
Imagine the result of turning the entire country over to be run by the FAA.
That's socialism.
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Very moving...
http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
; - The Commander-List Emai Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,
FAQ,
Message 13
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|
Subject: | Re: Very moving... |
Bruce, the last line was a bit of humour aimed at getting a rise out of
these good Twin Commander people - compare a Twin Commander to
Socialism? Scandalous!
I do stand by what I said, though: socialism can only work in perfect
harmony - but it has to be perfect harmony in the society. I'm not
passing judgement on whether it is evil or good. What I said was
"socialism is fine if only everybody is equal and everybody wants it to
the same degree." If everybody in the socialist unit is equal and
everybody wants socialism to the same degree then everybody's judgement
of it would be the same. That is democracy. It is not a case of
socialism never being able to work: where socialism has worked for those
in the system is where it is totally voluntary and where they share the
same belief, for example, monasteries and kibbutzim.
I once read an inspirational story about a man who was taken on a tour
of "heaven" and "hell". He was taken to "hell" first - there he saw
people starving, screaming, fighting each other, even resorting to
cannibalism. As if to torture them further in the middle of the room,
but surrounded by fire, was a huge pot of delicious food. The only way
people could get at the food was with long handled spoons, but the
spoons were so long that once they filled the spoon from the pot, they
couldn't get it into their mouths. The second room was "heaven" and it
was almost the same: same pot of food, same surrounding fire, same long
handled spoons, but all the people were contented and well-fed. The man
asked his guide why this group was well-fed and content. His guide
replied, "Here they have learned to feed each other."
>From a personal perspective I am no socialist - capitalist to the hilt -
but I do tend to lean more to the side of altruism. I am interested in
anthropology and what makes people think the way they do - like the
woman in the grocery line-up and the altruistic side of me feels bad for
her and her situation, whatever it may be.
God bless,
Andrew
----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Campbell
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:33 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving...
That last line bothered me. Just a resonse.
Socialism is not like a Twin Commander of any variety. And even if it
worked "perfectly", Its evil.
Whatever the intentions of the people who take over a functioning
society and socialize it, the whole thing is based on the idea that
people don't produce, they receive it form someone else. In other words,
they take as given that there is some supply of wealth, a big pot of
gold, that is being sat on by the "rich", which can be "shared" by the
government , and "that's fair".
The natural state of man is poverty. We only get anything because
some collective "we" produce stuff. That "we" is ultimately the
individual, because there isn't anyone else who's going to do it.
Everything we get is because of the wealth that each individual
produces. There is no pot of gold. Instead, people produce and sell a
good or service to someone else, who pays them approximately what its
worth.
As a software engineer for some years, I can attest that most of the
time (almost always) people get back (on average) pretty much what they
put in. Most of the time apparent "unfairness" comes from a failure to
understand what the value is that one is produce. Case in point: when
the German Democratic Republic fell, the CIA (and the DDR ministry of
Industry) valued their economy at about 70% of the value of the German
Federal Republic's, on a per capita basis. They all based this on the
ministry of industry figures which were in turn based on (pretty much
accurate) reports of production at the factory level. By these
estimates Trabant was creating more value than Volkswagen.
It wasn't until the DDR fell that it became clear what the fallacy is:
A Trabant is *not* a Volkswagen. In fact, the value of a Trabant when
people had the choice whether or not to buy them was less than the scrap
value of the metal. Every day Trabant workers would come to work, take
perfectly good steel and reduce its value by producing a Trabant. They
*thought* they were producing, but in fact they were detracting from the
national wealth. The solution ultimately was to shut down Trabant. VW
hired and retrained the workers and now they actually produce something
when they go to work. In a capitalist system, a company (like GM) that
produces inferior goods, or the wrong goods, will eventually go
bankrupt. The stockholders will pay for their folly, and the workers
will get rehired doing something more valuable. In a socialist system,
the State pours more and more resources down a rat hole.
Socialism removes these signals from the system. Worse than that, it
makes the political system rather than individuals choices the decision
maker in the allocation of resources. This both makes poor decisions in
allocation, but it also corrupts the political system.
Beyond that, it makes each individual a burden, rather than an asset.
Ever wondered why every socialist state since the French revolution has
murdered a major portion of their population? Simple. Since the State
has to support everyone, and since in such a system output falls
consistently, there comes the time when rationing is necessary. Since
the State doesn't know how to create wealth (modern socialist states
have lived by imitating the inventions of the capitalists) it must shed
burden. So, eventually, it is necessary to choose who will live and who
won't. Just consider the Obama administrations plans for "reducing
costs in the medical system because we are spending too much". The
"savings" are to decide which treatments are "cost effective", at least
partially on the basis of age. The result is that a 70 year old who
could live decades of productive life will be denied medical care
because he isn't cost effective, even if it kill him. The Canadian
cancer mortality rate is another good example. Of course, a lot of
socialist governments have been rather more aggressive in "rationing",
like the 20 million Russians starved to death during the 30s, the people
sent to the gas in Poland and Germany, the mass starvation and mass
executions in China, Vietnam, Cambodia, and so many other "paradises".
Finally, since the government becomes the fount from which all
resources come, serving and manipulating the government becomes, by
necessity, the primary activity of everyone. So government the fair
arbiter becomes government the aggressive advocate for whomever has
grabbed the power this week. Elections become corrupt because its
*worth* a billion dollars to control the presidency or congress, etc.
Of course, when you put a billion dollars in, you want at least that
much out. So the job of government becomes collecting taxes,
essentially at gun point to subsidize those who put the current
government in power, with little consideration for a benefit back to
those people.
In short, you have a ghastly mess. And it happens every time.
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
andrew.bridget@telus.net
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:42 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Very moving...
Nico,
thanks for this post. It is, as you say, very touching. I know you've
had comments about socialism, but, when you have time to read this long
reply, this is what I have to say...
The second line about the guy's job being shipped off to China touched
a nerve. Yet while I agree with what is said here my experience is that
some (maybe just a few) in the world today look to this and see "China"
as the enemy, and indeed, the Chinese too. I say this because I had a
nasty experience a while ago - I was in a line-up to pay for groceries
and a woman asked me if Rebecca was mine or somebody else's. I proudly -
naturally - said she was mine; that Bridget and I adopted her from
Jiangxi province in early 2006. I must admit I did not expect the
response I got; that "The [Canadian] government is allowing our jobs to
be shipped there; now you're bringing them [the Chinese] here to take
what few of our jobs remain."
My initial reaction was to tell her go forth and multiply - although
not quite in those words - but I held back and said nothing. After I
simmered down I tried to look at it from her side. What she said was
uncalled for, yes, but she must have lost her job to be so bitter to
make a comment like that. which, in turn, got me thinking about the
state of the world and why we are losing our jobs to developing nations.
The conclusion I came to was it was our fault - we have an
overwhelming desire for more for less, even when we don't need it. We
want to eat our cake and still have it after we have eaten it. Not all
of us, I hasten to add, but many of us to varying extents. Most things
are made in China: China has low cost of living, lots of human rights
infringements and blatant abuses, terrible working conditions, poor pay,
and, as a result, can produce things cheaply. We buy them. We pay ten
times (or more) the price it cost the supplier to buy them and, for us,
it is still a bargain. And it is not just products: services too. Call
centres are being shipped to India and the Philippines because labour
costs are lower. Why? Because in today's world, a company has to be
hugely profitable to survive. Shareholders want big profits. And we are
the shareholders.
Wal-Mart is a case in point. It is hugely successful. We shop there.
Why? Because it is cheap. Because most of its products are from China.
And who shops there? We do. We are the people who are contributing to
our own downfall because we want more for less. But will I (me
personally) stop shopping at Wal Mart? No. I want the things I buy. I
may not need them, but I want them. Do I really need that movie? No. Do
I need that rod, reel, Camping equipment that I bought the other day?
No. But I wanted them, so I bought them.
To get philosophical, the world is in equilibrium, something that the
Chinese worked out long ago with their philosophy of Yin and Yang. There
is balance. When we make money, we take it from somewhere else: be it a
person or enterprise. It is the same with jobs. When we gain a job from
somewhere, usually it is because it has been lost elsewhere. So how do
we stop it? Governments could introduce protectionist policies and stop
the so-called free trade. Which means the developing nations will
suffer, and developed nations will continue in isolation until inflation
takes them over.
So what's the solution? I don't know. Human nature is to look after
ourselves, not others. What if we turned it on its head? Not that it
will ever happen, but what if everybody in this world had an instant and
permanent mind-shift: instead human nature became looking after others
to our own expense? As I said, not that it is likely to ever happen, but
think about it. We, very quickly, would become equal. Instead of me
looking after myself, I would have 6.7 billion people (less one - me) to
look after. But instead of just having me looking after me, I would have
6.7 billion (less one) people looking after me. Is that socialism? I
suppose it is. And socialism is fine if only everybody is equal and
everybody wants it to the same degree.
And now for the bombshell - socialism is like a Twin Commander - its
heaven if every part of the aircraft works in perfect harmony, but hell
if one part breaks down. <grin!>
God bless,
Andrew
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: 'Arthur White'
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:34 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Very moving...
http://www.bornagainamerican.org/
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">h
ttp://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">
http://www.matronics.com/c ; - The Commander-List Emai Search &
Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat,
FAQ,http://www.matro==================
=http://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/con
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Very moving... |
Bruce & Andrew
I am a Capitalist through and through, although I do believe it must be
monitored lest Greed takes control.
In our current situation here in the USA, we have forced many people out
of work and to take substantial pay cuts for the greed of the bean
counters. In my opinion there is a "thin red line" between Capitalism
and Greed, and we walk a fine line to maintain this balance while still
protecting our Freedoms. Corruption enters the picture and we loose our
freedoms and increase our greed.
I have never understood how if I offer a cop a hundred dollars its a
bribe but if I give a thousand dollars to a PAC it is a donation, am I
not really trying to buy influence? Once again the question, how do we
balance all this, capitalism, freedom, & our constitutional rights. The
pendulum swings, however, when the government enters the picture, things
seem to really get screwed up. I don't know the answers, but I do have
some thoughts.
I tend to be a Libertarian at heart and believe in our Constitution as
it is written, but neither of the major parties want that to happen, in
fact many times I have trouble telling them apart.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: andrew.bridget@telus.net
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Very moving...
Bruce, the last line was a bit of humour aimed at getting a rise out
of these good Twin Commander people - compare a Twin Commander to
Socialism? Scandalous!
I do stand by what I said, though: socialism can only work in perfect
harmony - but it has to be perfect harmony in the society. I'm not
passing judgement on whether it is evil or good. What I said was
"socialism is fine if only everybody is equal and everybody wants it to
the same degree." If everybody in the socialist unit is equal and
everybody wants socialism to the same degree then everybody's judgement
of it would be the same. That is democracy. It is not a case of
socialism never being able to work: where socialism has worked for those
in the system is where it is totally voluntary and where they share the
same belief, for example, monasteries and kibbutzim.
I once read an inspirational story about a man who was taken on a tour
of "heaven" and "hell". He was taken to "hell" first - there he saw
people starving, screaming, fighting each other, even resorting to
cannibalism. As if to torture them further in the middle of the room,
but surrounded by fire, was a huge pot of delicious food. The only way
people could get at the food was with long handled spoons, but the
spoons were so long that once they filled the spoon from the pot, they
couldn't get it into their mouths. The second room was "heaven" and it
was almost the same: same pot of food, same surrounding fire, same long
handled spoons, but all the people were contented and well-fed. The man
asked his guide why this group was well-fed and content. His guide
replied, "Here they have learned to feed each other."
From a personal perspective I am no socialist - capitalist to the hilt
- but I do tend to lean more to the side of altruism. I am interested in
anthropology and what makes people think the way they do - like the
woman in the grocery line-up and the altruistic side of me feels bad for
her and her situation, whatever it may be.
God bless,
Andrew
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