---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/13/09: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:36 AM - Re: Fuming Mad! (N395V) 2. 06:55 AM - Re: Re: Fuming Mad! (BobsV35B@aol.com) 3. 07:10 AM - Re: Fuming Mad! (N395V) 4. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Fuming Mad! (Robert Feldtman) 5. 08:16 AM - Re: Fuming Mad! (Steve) 6. 11:04 AM - Re: Very moving... (L D GIROD) 7. 11:10 AM - Re: Fuming Mad! (L D GIROD) 8. 11:39 AM - Re: Fuming Mad! (N395V) 9. 11:52 AM - Re: Re: Fuming Mad! (Brock Lorber) 10. 03:42 PM - Re: Very moving... (yourtcfg@aol.com) 11. 03:42 PM - Re: Fuming Mad! (yourtcfg@aol.com) 12. 03:52 PM - Re: Fuming Mad! (yourtcfg@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:18 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Fuming Mad! From: "N395V" It means elections have consequences. The socialist bastards ran against George Ws "excesses in limiting our rights in the name of security" now we have Napolitano's gestapo doing to law abiding citizens what they wouldn't tolerate being done to a crackhead in downtown LA. Funny you don't see any of this in the NYT or on CNN. After all military veterans are potential terrorists and no one (except politiicians) should be wealthy enough to own a plane. You sorry shits that voted for the bastard got him now you get to live with (and pay for him) -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247934#247934 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:25 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Fuming Mad! Good Morning Milt, I totally agree with your sentiments. The problem is, how do we get this thing back to being a Republic? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 6/13/2009 8:36:55 A.M. Central Daylight Time, Bearcat@bearcataviation.com writes: You sorry shits that voted for the bastard got him now you get to live with (and pay for him) **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! JunestepsfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:06 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Fuming Mad! From: "N395V" Short of armed insurrection we don't. We have now crossed a threshold where more people receive from the government than pay in to it. We also have crossed the threshold where a greater percentage of the voting population live in major metropolitan areas then rural. Their wants and needs being totally divergent. We are approaching 300 years which historically seems to be the life of a free democracy. Soon we will resemble Canada, then England and finally the Islamic Republic of the Netherlands where something like 30% of newborn males are named mohammed. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247936#247936 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Fuming Mad! From: Robert Feldtman there is a glimmer of hope. check out the recent elections in Europe - especially Netherlands.... The winner is a guy so "anti-muslim" that England has forbidden him to enter the country.... Likewise, elections in England have tilted right/ Switzerland... there is a limit. Question is -- how much damage can Zero do which will be hard to or impossible to reverse. bobf On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 9:09 AM, N395V wrote: > > > > Short of armed insurrection we don't. > > We have now crossed a threshold where more people receive from the > government than pay in to it. We also have crossed the threshold where a > greater percentage of the voting population live in major metropolitan areas > then rural. Their wants and needs being totally divergent. > > We are approaching 300 years which historically seems to be the life of a > free democracy. > > Soon we will resemble Canada, then England and finally the Islamic Republic > of the Netherlands where something like 30% of newborn males are named > mohammed. > > -------- > Milt > 2003 F1 Rocket > 2006 Radial Rocket > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247936#247936 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:25 AM PST US From: "Steve" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! NIco, What a mess. Where on earth were the conservatives when these agencies were being formed? This department was created back in '03 when all I ever heard out of conservatives was whining about keeping us safe. That's all that was spoken about. Creating these giant agencies, bypassing courts, bypassing surveillance laws on citizens. All of this was done in the name of keeping us safe and being 'tough' on terrorists. Attempts to limit these powers and support civil liberties were seen as 'soft'. A couple months into the new guy's administration having inheriting these things, and with the radicalization of the political climate, we're in a box. If the new guy moves to defang border patrol and Homeland Security he'll be slammed for making us more vulnerable. Not trying to be funny here, I just really wonder why conservatives didn't play their classic role of limiting these powers, and contributed instead to their massive buildup. See you didn't need to worry, with you not posting about art films I can go back to normal. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css To: rocket-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:08 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Folks, I am fuming mad. The Long Beach action against private citizens is an atrocity. One can understand if there were concerns for suspicious or dangerous persons on that flight, but from all accounts this was a flight by all standards similar to an outing with the family in one's automobile in the countryside. Some brainless twit in Long Beach with a jackboot fetish decided to show his or her prowess that day and ordered a full-scale scare initiative. I was taught from childhood that you don't point a firearm at anybody unless you are prepared to use it. There is no justification for assuming otherwise with law enforcement. Shame on Kelly Ivahnenko for defending this outrageous behavior of the rogue priests of covert fascism. What would you have done, Kelly, if one of the drawn weapons discharged accidentally? Or, suppose one of the passengers lowered his hand to open the door or prevent from stumbling trying to get out of the plane under extreme duress and one of the officers perceived that as reaching for a weapon? I can already hear your sheepish and inadequate response by extrapolating it from your answer here. What a shameful thing to defend! Those who do not advocate for your dismissal and those at Long Beach, for incompetence, is just as guilty. Stressing that this experience is not what most pilots should expect when they are checked by the CBP is a shameful and ignorant statement, insulting everybody's intelligence including yours. Tell us, then, Kelly, what should pilots expect when they are checked by the CBP? What percentage could expect drawn weapons pointed at their parents or children that happen to be with them that day? And don't say that it will happen only when there is justified belief of a suspicious passenger or pilot involved because you already defended an action where such prior knowledge was not present; on the contrary, all indications were that there were no suspicious persons on board that flight. If your agency embarked on a course to totally destroy general aviation, you have certainly shown the methods by which you want to accomplish that goal. I would sue their friggin' pants off, Perry, not to inhibit legitimate pursuit of security but to eradicate this and exactly this kind of tyranny. Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rocketman Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:22 AM To: Boyd C. Braem Subject: Rocket-List: Back in the USSR! So tell me what does this mean for us peons? As seen in AVweb A total of 454 airports will be subject to the TSA's latest Security Directive (SD-8G) restricting the movements of transient pilots, EAA said this week. The list includes airports in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and Guam as well as in the U.S. Click here for the full list (PDF). The directive took effect June 1 and requires pilots to "remain close to their aircraft," leaving it only for trips to and from the FBO or airport exit, according to AOPA, although some airports may also offer escorts to transient pilots. Since individual airports may develop a variety of programs that would satisfy the TSA directive, pilots need to call ahead to their destinations and ask the airport operator or an FBO on the field for information about that airport's security requirements, EAA says. The TSA is expected to provide future guidance regarding self-fueling and emergencies. The full text of the security directive has not been made public. The new listing of airports is not the same as a list of airports (PDF) released by the TSA in January for the Large Aircraft Security Program. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION JUSTIFIES RAMP CHECK A spokeswoman for the Washington headquarters of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) says the drawing of weapons in the ramp inspection of an aircraft in Long Beach, Calif., last month was justified but not "normal." Kelly Ivahnenko also told AVweb that general aviation pilots can expect more ramp checks by CBP agents thanks to the newly-instituted Electronic Advance Passenger Information System (eAPIS). She stressed it's unlikely many of the checks will have the level of intensity employed May 22 with Long Beach, Calif., pilot David Perry and his three passengers. Ivahnenko said in an interview on Tuesday that there was a "heightened alert" involved in the Long Beach operation but she also said she could not discuss the circumstances that led to a more aggressive posture than normal by the CBP and local police. She also said that while eAPIS had nothing to do with the Long Beach inspection, information provided through eAPIS could result in more frequent GA inspections. The system, which involves the online filing of flight and passenger information for transborder flights, became mandatory on May 18. In an interview and podcast with AVweb, Perry said he and his passengers were put in unnecessary peril by gun-wielding enforcement officials. Ivahnenko stressed Perry's experience is not what most pilots should expect if they're checked by the CBP. "This I would not classify as common or routine," she said. She said the Long Beach action was justified, even though the search turned up nothing illegal. "While the involvement of more than one law enforcement agency and the heightened alert of the situation were slightly unusual, it is within (CBP's) authority to inspect inbound and outbound travelers, vehicles, planes, cargo, etc.," she told AVweb. She also said that only the Long Beach police officers assisting the operation actually drew weapons and CBP agents kept theirs holstered, something Perry vehemently disputes. "Every one of them had their weapons out," Perry said. More... ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:35 AM PST US From: "L D GIROD" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Very moving... Robert; Although an 'economist' by college degree major, I do not take that magazine, tried to pull the article up online, but failed. Will keep my eye out in some of the stores, if I see it I will get it. Thanks, Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert S. Randazzo To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:44 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving... Don- The Economist published a fantastic article explaining the relationship between capitalism, greed and government regulation this past week. If you can get a copy- do so. I've always enjoyed the Economist because they really don't care to take sides- they simply address things from the perspective of what is good from an economic standpoint. This article pokes fun at those running around screaming about socialism, but then turns the corner to wag a firm finger in the direction of Washington to warn them of the potential pitfalls in the current course of action. I like well rounded. Astoundingly rare in this age of sound-bites and talking-head-infighting. Robert S. Randazzo N414C From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of L D GIROD Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 5:30 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Very moving... Bruce & Andrew I am a Capitalist through and through, although I do believe it must be monitored lest Greed takes control. In our current situation here in the USA, we have forced many people out of work and to take substantial pay cuts for the greed of the bean counters. In my opinion there is a "thin red line" between Capitalism and Greed, and we walk a fine line to maintain this balance while still protecting our Freedoms. Corruption enters the picture and we loose our freedoms and increase our greed. I have never understood how if I offer a cop a hundred dollars its a bribe but if I give a thousand dollars to a PAC it is a donation, am I not really trying to buy influence? Once again the question, how do we balance all this, capitalism, freedom, & our constitutional rights. The pendulum swings, however, when the government enters the picture, things seem to really get screwed up. I don't know the answers, but I do have some thoughts. I tend to be a Libertarian at heart and believe in our Constitution as it is written, but neither of the major parties want that to happen, in fact many times I have trouble telling them apart. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:41 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Very moving... Bruce, the last line was a bit of humour aimed at getting a rise out of these good Twin Commander people - compare a Twin Commander to Socialism? Scandalous! I do stand by what I said, though: socialism can only work in perfect harmony - but it has to be perfect harmony in the society. I'm not passing judgement on whether it is evil or good. What I said was "socialism is fine if only everybody is equal and everybody wants it to the same degree." If everybody in the socialist unit is equal and everybody wants socialism to the same degree then everybody's judgement of it would be the same. That is democracy. It is not a case of socialism never being able to work: where socialism has worked for those in the system is where it is totally voluntary and where they share the same belief, for example, monasteries and kibbutzim. I once read an inspirational story about a man who was taken on a tour of "heaven" and "hell". He was taken to "hell" first - there he saw people starving, screaming, fighting each other, even resorting to cannibalism. As if to torture them further in the middle of the room, but surrounded by fire, was a huge pot of delicious food. The only way people could get at the food was with long handled spoons, but the spoons were so long that once they filled the spoon from the pot, they couldn't get it into their mouths. The second room was "heaven" and it was almost the same: same pot of food, same surrounding fire, same long handled spoons, but all the people were contented and well-fed. The man asked his guide why this group was well-fed and content. His guide replied, "Here they have learned to feed each other." From a personal perspective I am no socialist - capitalist to the hilt - but I do tend to lean more to the side of altruism. I am interested in anthropology and what makes people think the way they do - like the woman in the grocery line-up and the altruistic side of me feels bad for her and her situation, whatever it may be. God bless, Andrew http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:23 AM PST US From: "L D GIROD" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Steve; We get lied to a lot and also the politicians have a much longer time frame than we do, so they sneak thing through, consider the Panama Canal with Jimmy Carter. Past the law but was not effective until almost twenty years later. One thing that most don't remember as it did not make much news was Clinton signing a 'treaty with the UN' hours before leaving office (same time frame as all the pardons). Thank goodness Geo W. nullified it within a few hours of being sworn in, a treaty supersedes the Constitution. Rumor had it Slick Willy was trying to be appointed president of the UN. But makes one ask, "Where do we get these self serving idiots"? Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! NIco, What a mess. Where on earth were the conservatives when these agencies were being formed? This department was created back in '03 when all I ever heard out of conservatives was whining about keeping us safe. That's all that was spoken about. Creating these giant agencies, bypassing courts, bypassing surveillance laws on citizens. All of this was done in the name of keeping us safe and being 'tough' on terrorists. Attempts to limit these powers and support civil liberties were seen as 'soft'. A couple months into the new guy's administration having inheriting these things, and with the radicalization of the political climate, we're in a box. If the new guy moves to defang border patrol and Homeland Security he'll be slammed for making us more vulnerable. Not trying to be funny here, I just really wonder why conservatives didn't play their classic role of limiting these powers, and contributed instead to their massive buildup. See you didn't need to worry, with you not posting about art films I can go back to normal. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css To: rocket-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:08 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Folks, I am fuming mad. The Long Beach action against private citizens is an atrocity. One can understand if there were concerns for suspicious or dangerous persons on that flight, but from all accounts this was a flight by all standards similar to an outing with the family in one's automobile in the countryside. Some brainless twit in Long Beach with a jackboot fetish decided to show his or her prowess that day and ordered a full-scale scare initiative. I was taught from childhood that you don't point a firearm at anybody unless you are prepared to use it. There is no justification for assuming otherwise with law enforcement. Shame on Kelly Ivahnenko for defending this outrageous behavior of the rogue priests of covert fascism. What would you have done, Kelly, if one of the drawn weapons discharged accidentally? Or, suppose one of the passengers lowered his hand to open the door or prevent from stumbling trying to get out of the plane under extreme duress and one of the officers perceived that as reaching for a weapon? I can already hear your sheepish and inadequate response by extrapolating it from your answer here. What a shameful thing to defend! Those who do not advocate for your dismissal and those at Long Beach, for incompetence, is just as guilty. Stressing that this experience is not what most pilots should expect when they are checked by the CBP is a shameful and ignorant statement, insulting everybody's intelligence including yours. Tell us, then, Kelly, what should pilots expect when they are checked by the CBP? What percentage could expect drawn weapons pointed at their parents or children that happen to be with them that day? And don't say that it will happen only when there is justified belief of a suspicious passenger or pilot involved because you already defended an action where such prior knowledge was not present; on the contrary, all indications were that there were no suspicious persons on board that flight. If your agency embarked on a course to totally destroy general aviation, you have certainly shown the methods by which you want to accomplish that goal. I would sue their friggin' pants off, Perry, not to inhibit legitimate pursuit of security but to eradicate this and exactly this kind of tyranny. Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rocketman Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:22 AM To: Boyd C. Braem Subject: Rocket-List: Back in the USSR! So tell me what does this mean for us peons? As seen in AVweb A total of 454 airports will be subject to the TSA's latest Security Directive (SD-8G) restricting the movements of transient pilots, EAA said this week. The list includes airports in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and Guam as well as in the U.S. Click here for the full list (PDF). The directive took effect June 1 and requires pilots to "remain close to their aircraft," leaving it only for trips to and from the FBO or airport exit, according to AOPA, although some airports may also offer escorts to transient pilots. Since individual airports may develop a variety of programs that would satisfy the TSA directive, pilots need to call ahead to their destinations and ask the airport operator or an FBO on the field for information about that airport's security requirements, EAA says. The TSA is expected to provide future guidance regarding self-fueling and emergencies. The full text of the security directive has not been made public. The new listing of airports is not the same as a list of airports (PDF) released by the TSA in January for the Large Aircraft Security Program. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION JUSTIFIES RAMP CHECK A spokeswoman for the Washington headquarters of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) says the drawing of weapons in the ramp inspection of an aircraft in Long Beach, Calif., last month was justified but not "normal." Kelly Ivahnenko also told AVweb that general aviation pilots can expect more ramp checks by CBP agents thanks to the newly-instituted Electronic Advance Passenger Information System (eAPIS). She stressed it's unlikely many of the checks will have the level of intensity employed May 22 with Long Beach, Calif., pilot David Perry and his three passengers. Ivahnenko said in an interview on Tuesday that there was a "heightened alert" involved in the Long Beach operation but she also said she could not discuss the circumstances that led to a more aggressive posture than normal by the CBP and local police. She also said that while eAPIS had nothing to do with the Long Beach inspection, information provided through eAPIS could result in more frequent GA inspections. The system, which involves the online filing of flight and passenger information for transborder flights, became mandatory on May 18. In an interview and podcast with AVweb, Perry said he and his passengers were put in unnecessary peril by gun-wielding enforcement officials. Ivahnenko stressed Perry's experience is not what most pilots should expect if they're checked by the CBP. "This I would not classify as common or routine," she said. She said the Long Beach action was justified, even though the search turned up nothing illegal. "While the involvement of more than one law enforcement agency and the heightened alert of the situation were slightly unusual, it is within (CBP's) authority to inspect inbound and outbound travelers, vehicles, planes, cargo, etc.," she told AVweb. She also said that only the Long Beach police officers assisting the operation actually drew weapons and CBP agents kept theirs holstered, something Perry vehemently disputes. "Every one of them had their weapons out," Perry said. More... href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:39:12 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Fuming Mad! From: "N395V" > having inheriting these things When George W was in office they didn't mug law abiding pilots at gunpoint. Had that happened during the Bush Admin it is all we would have seen on the news for a month followed by impeachment proceedings. Customs and Border patrol have existed since long before the Bush admin. Thing is obama is slug and he is letting napolitano run roughshod over mostly conservatives. This sorry piece of crap is reading miranda rights to terrorists on the battlefield and treating them like royalty. He bows to Saudi royalty and then treats US citizens like crap. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247967#247967 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Fuming Mad! From: "Brock Lorber" http://articles.latimes.com/2008/nov/21/nation/na-shootdown21 -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of N395V Sent: Sat 6/13/2009 11:38 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Fuming Mad! > having inheriting these things When George W was in office they didn't mug law abiding pilots at gunpoint. Had that happened during the Bush Admin it is all we would have seen on the news for a month followed by impeachment proceedings. Customs and Border patrol have existed since long before the Bush admin. Thing is obama is slug and he is letting napolitano run roughshod over mostly conservatives. This sorry piece of crap is reading miranda rights to terrorists on the battlefield and treating them like royalty. He bows to Saudi royalty and then treats US citizens like crap. -------- Milt 2003 F1 Rocket 2006 Radial Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=247967#247967 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Very moving... From: yourtcfg@aol.com HI DON......... Give me a call at 360-903-6901.=C2- Thanks!!=C2- Jim Metzger Don -----Original Message----- From: L D GIROD Sent: Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:01 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: Very moving... Robert; =C2- Although an 'economist' by college degree major, I do not take that magazi ne, tried to pull the article up online, but failed.=C2- Will keep my ey e out in some of the stores, if I see it I will get it. =C2- Thanks, =C2- Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert S. Randazzo Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:44 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Very moving... Don- =C2- The Economist published a fantastic article explaining the relationship be tween capitalism, greed and government regulation this past week.=C2- If you can get a copy- do so =C2- I=99ve always enjoyed the Economist because they really don=99 t care to take sides- they simply address things from the perspective of what is good from an economic standpoint.=C2- This article pokes fun at those running around screaming about socialism, but then turns the corner to wag a firm finger in the direction of Washington to warn them of the potential pitfalls in the current course of action. =C2- I like well rounded=C2- Astoundingly rare in this age of sound- bites and talking-head-infighting =C2- Robert S. Randazzo N414C =C2- From: owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of L D GIROD Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 5:30 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Very moving... =C2- Bruce & Andrew =C2- I am a Capitalist through and through, although I do believe it must be mo nitored lest Greed takes control. =C2- In our current situation here in the USA, we have forced many people out of work and to take substantial pay cuts for the greed of the bean counte rs.=C2- In my opinion there is a "thin red line" between Capitalism and Greed, and we walk a fine line to maintain this balance while still prote cting our Freedoms.=C2- Corruption enters the picture and we loose our freedoms and increase our greed. =C2- I have never understood how if I offer a cop a hundred dollars its a bribe but if I give a thousand dollars=C2-to a PAC it is a donation, am I not really trying to buy influence?=C2- Once again the question, how do we balance all this, capitalism, freedom, & our constitutional rights.=C2- The pendulum swings, however, when the government enters the picture, thi ngs seem to really get screwed up.=C2- I don't know the answers, but I do have some thoughts.=C2- =C2- I tend to be a Libertarian at heart and believe in our Constitution as it is written, but neither of the major parties want that to happen, in fact many times I have trouble telling them apart. =C2- Don ---- - Original Message ----- From: andrew.bridget@telus.net Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:41 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Very moving... =C2- Bruce, the last line was a bit of humour aimed at getting a rise out of th ese good Twin Commander people - compare a Twin Commander to Socialism? Sc andalous! =C2- I do stand by what I said, though: socialism can only work in perfect harm ony - but it has to be perfect harmony in the society.=C2-I'm not passin g judgement on whether it is evil or good.=C2-What I said was "socialism is fine if only everybody is equal and everybody wants it to the same deg ree." If everybody in the socialist unit is equal and everybody wants soci alism to the same degree then everybody's judgement of it would be the sam e. That is democracy. It is not a case of socialism never being able to wo rk: where socialism has worked=C2-for those in the system=C2-is where it is totally voluntary and where they share the same belief, for example , monasteries and kibbutzim. =C2- I once read an inspirational=C2-story about a man who was taken on a tou r of "heaven" and "hell". He was taken to "hell" first - there he saw peop le starving, screaming, fighting each other, even resorting to cannibalism . As if to torture them further in the middle of the room, but surrounded by fire, was a huge pot of delicious food.=C2-The only way people could get at the food was with long handled spo ons, but the spoons were so long that=C2-once they filled the spoon from the pot, they couldn't get it into their mouths. The second room was "hea ven" and it was almost the same: same pot of food, same surrounding fire, same long handled spoons, but all the people were contented and well-fed. The man asked his guide why this group was=C2-well-fed and content. His guide replied, "Here they have learned to feed each other."=C2-=C2- =C2- >From a personal perspective I am no socialist - capitalist to the hilt - but I do tend to=C2-lean more to the side of=C2-altruism.=C2-I am interested in anthropology and what makes people think the way they do - like the woman in the grocery line-up and the altruistic side of me feels bad for her and her situation, whatever it may be. =C2- God bless, Andrew =C2- =C2- =C2- http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution =C2- href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ======================== =========== -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= t he many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! From: yourtcfg@aol.com Anem!!? jb Thank goodness Geo W. nullified it within a few hours of being sworn in, a treaty supersedes?the Constitution.? -----Original Message----- From: L D GIROD Sent: Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:10 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Steve; ? We get lied to a lot and also the politicians have a much longer time frame than we do, so they sneak thing through, consider the Panama Canal with Jimmy Carter.? Past the law but was not effective until almost twenty years later.? ? One thing that most don't remember?as it?did not make much news was Clinton signing a 'treaty with the UN' hours before leaving office (same time frame as all the pardons).?Thank goodness Geo W. nullified it within a few hours of being sworn in, a treaty supersedes?the Constitution.? Rumor had it Slick Willy was trying to be appointed president of the UN.? ? But makes one ask, "Where do we get these self serving idiots"? ? Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! NIco, ? What a mess. ? Where on earth were the conservatives when these agencies were being formed? This?department was created back in '03 when all I ever heard out of conservatives was whining about keeping us safe. That's all that was spoken about. Creating these giant agencies, bypassing courts, bypassing surveillance laws on citizens. All of this was done in the name of keeping us safe and being 'tough' on terrorists. Attempts to limit these powers and support civil liberties were seen as 'soft'. ? A couple months into the new guy's administration having inheriting these things, and with the radicalization of the political climate, we're in a box. If the new guy moves to defang border patrol and Homeland Security he'll be slammed for making us more vulnerable. ? Not trying to be funny here, I just really wonder why conservatives didn't play their classic role of limiting these powers, and contributed instead to their massive buildup. ? See you didn't need to worry, with you not posting about art films I can go back to normal. ? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:08 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Folks, ? I am fuming mad. ? The Long Beach action against private citizens is an atrocity. One can understand if there were concerns for suspicious or dangerous persons on that flight, but from all accounts this was a flight by all standards similar to an outing with the family in one's automobile in the countryside. Some brainless twit in Long Beach with a jackboot fetish decided to show his or her prowess that day and ordered a full-scale scare initiative. I was taught from childhood that you don't point a firearm at anybody unless you are prepared to use it. There is no justification for assuming otherwise with law enforcement. ? Shame on Kelly Ivahnenko for defending this outrageous behavior of the rogue priests of covert fascism. What would you have done, Kelly, if one of the drawn weapons discharged accidentally? Or, suppose one of the passengers lowered his hand to open the door or prevent from stumbling trying to get out of the plane under extreme duress and one of the officers perceived that as reaching for a weapon? I can already hear your sheepish and inadequate response by extrapolating it from your answer here. What a shameful thing to defend! Those who do not advocate for your dismissal and those at Long Beach, for incompetence, is just as guilty. ? Stressing that this experience is not what most pilots should expect when they are checked by the CBP is a shameful and ignorant statement, insulting everybody's intelligence including yours. Tell us, then, Kelly, what should pilots expect when they are checked by the CBP? What percentage could expect drawn weapons pointed at their parents or children that happen to be with them that day? And don't say that it will happen only when there is justified belief of a suspicious passenger or pilot involved because you already defended an action where such prior knowledge was not present;?on the contrary, all indications were that there were no suspicious persons on board that flight. If your agency embarked on a course to totally destroy general aviation, you have certainly shown the methods by which you want to accomplish that goal. ? I would sue their friggin' pants off, Perry, not to inhibit legitimate pursuit of security but to eradicate this and exactly this kind of tyranny. ? Nico ? ? From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rocketman Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:22 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Back in the USSR! So tell me what does this mean for us peons? As seen in AVweb A total of 454 airports will be subject to the TSA's latest Security Directive (SD-8G) restricting the movements of transient pilots, EAA said this week. The list includes airports in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and Guam as well as in the U.S. Click here for the full list (PDF). The directive took effect June 1 and requires pilots to "remain close to their aircraft," leaving it only for trips to and from the FBO or airport exit, according to AOPA, although some airports may also offer escorts to transient pilots. Since individual airports may develop a variety of programs that would satisfy the TSA directive, pilots need to call ahead to their destinations and ask the airport operator or an FBO on the field for information about that airport's security requirements, EAA says. The TSA is expected to provide future guidance regarding self-fueling and emergencies. The full text of the security directive has not been made public. The new listing of airports is not the same as a list of airports (PDF) released by the TSA in January for the Large Aircraft Security Program. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION JUSTIFIES RAMP CHECK A spokeswoman for the Washington headquarters of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) says the drawing of weapons in the ramp inspection of an aircraft in Long Beach, Calif., last month was justified but not "normal." Kelly Ivahnenko also told AVweb that general aviation pilots can expect more ramp checks by CBP agents thanks to the newly-instituted Electronic Advance Passenger Information System (eAPIS). She stressed it's unlikely many of the checks will have the level of intensity employed May 22 with Long Beach, Calif., pilot David Perry and his three passengers. Ivahnenko said in an interview on Tuesday that there was a "heightened alert" involved in the Long Beach operation but she also said she could not discuss the circumstances that led to a more aggressive posture than normal by the CBP and local police. She also said that while eAPIS had nothing to do with the Long Beach inspection, information provided through eAPIS could result in more frequent GA inspections. The system, which involves the online filing of flight and passenger information for transborder flights, became mandatory on May 18. In an interview and podcast with AVweb, Perry said he and his passengers were put in unnecessary peril by gun-wielding enforcement officials. Ivahnenko stressed Perry's experience is not what most pilots should expect if they're checked by the CBP. "This I would not classify as common or routine," she said. She said the Long Beach action was justified, even though the search turned up nothing illegal. "While the involvement of more than one law enforcement agency and the heightened alert of the situation were slightly unusual, it is within (CBP's) authority to inspect inbound and outbound travelers, vehicles, planes, cargo, etc.," she told AVweb. She also said that only the Long Beach police officers assisting the operation actually drew weapons and CBP agents kept theirs holstered, something Perry vehemently disputes. "Every one of them had t heir weapons out," Perry said. More... ? href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:52:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! From: yourtcfg@aol.com Opps,I meant, AMEN!! ?Thank goodness Geo W. nullified it within a few hours of being sworn in, a treaty supersedes?the Constitution.? -----Original Message----- From: L D GIROD Sent: Sat, Jun 13, 2009 11:10 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Steve; ? We get lied to a lot and also the politicians have a much longer time frame than we do, so they sneak thing through, consider the Panama Canal with Jimmy Carter.? Past the law but was not effective until almost twenty years later.? ? One thing that most don't remember?as it?did not make much news was Clinton signing a 'treaty with the UN' hours before leaving office (same time frame as all the pardons).?Thank goodness Geo W. nullified it within a few hours of being sworn in, a treaty supersedes?the Constitution.? Rumor had it Slick Willy was trying to be appointed president of the UN.? ? But makes one ask, "Where do we get these self serving idiots"? ? Don ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! NIco, ? What a mess. ? Where on earth were the conservatives when these agencies were being formed? This?department was created back in '03 when all I ever heard out of conservatives was whining about keeping us safe. That's all that was spoken about. Creating these giant agencies, bypassing courts, bypassing surveillance laws on citizens. All of this was done in the name of keeping us safe and being 'tough' on terrorists. Attempts to limit these powers and support civil liberties were seen as 'soft'. ? A couple months into the new guy's administration having inheriting these things, and with the radicalization of the political climate, we're in a box. If the new guy moves to defang border patrol and Homeland Security he'll be slammed for making us more vulnerable. ? Not trying to be funny here, I just really wonder why conservatives didn't play their classic role of limiting these powers, and contributed instead to their massive buildup. ? See you didn't need to worry, with you not posting about art films I can go back to normal. ? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:08 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Folks, ? I am fuming mad. ? The Long Beach action against private citizens is an atrocity. One can understand if there were concerns for suspicious or dangerous persons on that flight, but from all accounts this was a flight by all standards similar to an outing with the family in one's automobile in the countryside. Some brainless twit in Long Beach with a jackboot fetish decided to show his or her prowess that day and ordered a full-scale scare initiative. I was taught from childhood that you don't point a firearm at anybody unless you are prepared to use it. There is no justification for assuming otherwise with law enforcement. ? Shame on Kelly Ivahnenko for defending this outrageous behavior of the rogue priests of covert fascism. What would you have done, Kelly, if one of the drawn weapons discharged accidentally? Or, suppose one of the passengers lowered his hand to open the door or prevent from stumbling trying to get out of the plane under extreme duress and one of the officers perceived that as reaching for a weapon? I can already hear your sheepish and inadequate response by extrapolating it from your answer here. What a shameful thing to defend! Those who do not advocate for your dismissal and those at Long Beach, for incompetence, is just as guilty. ? Stressing that this experience is not what most pilots should expect when they are checked by the CBP is a shameful and ignorant statement, insulting everybody's intelligence including yours. Tell us, then, Kelly, what should pilots expect when they are checked by the CBP? What percentage could expect drawn weapons pointed at their parents or children that happen to be with them that day? And don't say that it will happen only when there is justified belief of a suspicious passenger or pilot involved because you already defended an action where such prior knowledge was not present;?on the contrary, all indications were that there were no suspicious persons on board that flight. If your agency embarked on a course to totally destroy general aviation, you have certainly shown the methods by which you want to accomplish that goal. ? I would sue their friggin' pants off, Perry, not to inhibit legitimate pursuit of security but to eradicate this and exactly this kind of tyranny. ? Nico ? ? From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rocketman Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:22 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Back in the USSR! So tell me what does this mean for us peons? As seen in AVweb A total of 454 airports will be subject to the TSA's latest Security Directive (SD-8G) restricting the movements of transient pilots, EAA said this week. The list includes airports in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and Guam as well as in the U.S. Click here for the full list (PDF). The directive took effect June 1 and requires pilots to "remain close to their aircraft," leaving it only for trips to and from the FBO or airport exit, according to AOPA, although some airports may also offer escorts to transient pilots. Since individual airports may develop a variety of programs that would satisfy the TSA directive, pilots need to call ahead to their destinations and ask the airport operator or an FBO on the field for information about that airport's security requirements, EAA says. The TSA is expected to provide future guidance regarding self-fueling and emergencies. The full text of the security directive has not been made public. The new listing of airports is not the same as a list of airports (PDF) released by the TSA in January for the Large Aircraft Security Program. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION JUSTIFIES RAMP CHECK A spokeswoman for the Washington headquarters of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) says the drawing of weapons in the ramp inspection of an aircraft in Long Beach, Calif., last month was justified but not "normal." Kelly Ivahnenko also told AVweb that general aviation pilots can expect more ramp checks by CBP agents thanks to the newly-instituted Electronic Advance Passenger Information System (eAPIS). She stressed it's unlikely many of the checks will have the level of intensity employed May 22 with Long Beach, Calif., pilot David Perry and his three passengers. Ivahnenko said in an interview on Tuesday that there was a "heightened alert" involved in the Long Beach operation but she also said she could not discuss the circumstances that led to a more aggressive posture than normal by the CBP and local police. She also said that while eAPIS had nothing to do with the Long Beach inspection, information provided through eAPIS could result in more frequent GA inspections. The system, which involves the online filing of flight and passenger information for transborder flights, became mandatory on May 18. In an interview and podcast with AVweb, Perry said he and his passengers were put in unnecessary peril by gun-wielding enforcement officials. Ivahnenko stressed Perry's experience is not what most pilots should expect if they're checked by the CBP. "This I would not classify as common or routine," she said. She said the Long Beach action was justified, even though the search turned up nothing illegal. "While the involvement of more than one law enforcement agency and the heightened alert of the situation were slightly unusual, it is within (CBP's) authority to inspect inbound and outbound travelers, vehicles, planes, cargo, etc.," she told AVweb. She also said that only the Long Beach police officers assisting the operation actually drew weapons and CBP agents kept theirs holstered, something Perry vehemently disputes. "Every one of them had t heir weapons out," Perry said. More... ? href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.