Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:22 AM - Sept flyin and Convention now on website (nico css)
2. 04:55 AM - Re: Fuming Mad! (s)
3. 05:59 AM - Re: Fuel drains for 680 (MASON CHEVAILLIER)
4. 09:56 AM - Re: Fuming Mad! (nico css)
5. 12:41 PM - What was he thinking... (nico css)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Sept flyin and Convention now on website |
Folks,
The Flyin and convention notice and subscription form is on the website
www.aerocommander.com
Please check it out and let me know if you spot anything that needs to be
fixed or said differently.
Thanks
Nico
Message 2
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Nico,
I had missed the emphasis of your point and we're in agreement on it. No
citizen should be subject to unreasonable search, seizure or detention.
Law abiding citizens should not be facing drawn weapons. It's appalling.
I think we would both agree that this was an abuse of power on the part
of duly authorized officers. We should keep in mind this sort of abuse
has happened frequently over the years, and continues to happen. The
much hated civil libertarian groups have worked to keep these in check.
What is maybe different is that this time a different group of person
was affected, one of us.
I see the point you were trying to make was that there have always been
individuals with authorized powers, it is the use of those powers. Where
we may part ways is that I DO link these agencies and their very
creation to abusive powers by the nature of their existence. While I
hear the words liberty and freedom tossed around a lot, we've exchanged
many of our liberties, freedoms and rights, for a sense of safety.
Shaking down Grandma at airports, a seven foot high chain link fence
that only goes around the front of the airport..... It makes me sick to
see that fence keeping the public away, instead of the picnic bench we
used to have. Domestic wire-tapping, surveillance, banking
transactions.....
Nico, my last message was a good natured poke in the side. It just seems
silly on the part of some of the right to be pointing fingers at
powerful government agencies a couple months into a new administration,
when nothing was said about those tentacles stretching into our lives at
the time, and those more interested in civil liberties were mocked.
We don't have a local policeman. Up until last year we had a fella who
filled in as a part-time constable. I think he might be full-time now.
I read the AvWeb article. I'll check out Russ Nile's blog.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 10:12 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fuming Mad!
Hi Steve.
I am not complaining about the powers, I am complaining about the
abuse of those powers. Linking this abuse to the agencies, per se, just
doesn't make sense. The media ignoring the incident is the needle in the
side and the acceleration of the anger. Your local policeman has similar
powers based upon reasonable belief of a crime, which is a totally
subjective call making it nearly impossible to challenge. You can be
locked up for several hours without any cause whatsoever and you have no
recourse at all. David Perry and his passengers were detained for only
about one hour, well within the limit of ad hoc detention. I don't gripe
about that. If you read my opinion on the matter, you will see that I
avoided the part where these officers were within their rights; rights
they did not acquire by any agency that was created in '03 or any recent
decade before that. Their abuse was with the manner in which they
executed their duties. Having firearms drawn on civilians without cause
is abuse of the highest order. This sets a decorum of violence first,
which is something that is totally foreign to the general aviation
community and in this country as a whole for that matter. Not even
police officers approaching suspicious vehicles during traffic stops
draw their guns. They are merely prepared to act quickly, which is
reasonable.
Getting back to your local policeman. If he would arrest you at
gunpoint without any cause you would have a complaint of abuse,
violating your civil rights and unnecessarily endangering your life,
which would be a legitimate complaint and, in my (not always) humble
opinion, something for which you can sue.
The mere fact that they were released after only an hour's
interrogation, is clear proof that there was no cause and no prior
information about the pilot, the passengers or the plane or they would
have been detained or at least questioned for a longer period of time.
Russ Niles' pathetic paint-job of the incident in AvWeb is a disgrace.
Nico
The incident:
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1392-full.html#200528
and Russ Niles' blog:
http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/GA_A_Soft_Target_For_Security_200535-1
.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:07 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad!
NIco,
What a mess.
Where on earth were the conservatives when these agencies were being
formed? This department was created back in '03 when all I ever heard
out of conservatives was whining about keeping us safe. That's all that
was spoken about. Creating these giant agencies, bypassing courts,
bypassing surveillance laws on citizens. All of this was done in the
name of keeping us safe and being 'tough' on terrorists. Attempts to
limit these powers and support civil liberties were seen as 'soft'.
A couple months into the new guy's administration having inheriting
these things, and with the radicalization of the political climate,
we're in a box. If the new guy moves to defang border patrol and
Homeland Security he'll be slammed for making us more vulnerable.
Not trying to be funny here, I just really wonder why conservatives
didn't play their classic role of limiting these powers, and contributed
instead to their massive buildup.
See you didn't need to worry, with you not posting about art films I
can go back to normal.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:08 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Fuming Mad!
Folks,
I am fuming mad.
The Long Beach action against private citizens is an atrocity. One
can understand if there were concerns for suspicious or dangerous
persons on that flight, but from all accounts this was a flight by all
standards similar to an outing with the family in one's automobile in
the countryside. Some brainless twit in Long Beach with a jackboot
fetish decided to show his or her prowess that day and ordered a
full-scale scare initiative. I was taught from childhood that you don't
point a firearm at anybody unless you are prepared to use it. There is
no justification for assuming otherwise with law enforcement.
Shame on Kelly Ivahnenko for defending this outrageous behavior of
the rogue priests of covert fascism. What would you have done, Kelly, if
one of the drawn weapons discharged accidentally? Or, suppose one of the
passengers lowered his hand to open the door or prevent from stumbling
trying to get out of the plane under extreme duress and one of the
officers perceived that as reaching for a weapon? I can already hear
your sheepish and inadequate response by extrapolating it from your
answer here. What a shameful thing to defend! Those who do not advocate
for your dismissal and those at Long Beach, for incompetence, is just as
guilty.
Stressing that this experience is not what most pilots should expect
when they are checked by the CBP is a shameful and ignorant statement,
insulting everybody's intelligence including yours. Tell us, then,
Kelly, what should pilots expect when they are checked by the CBP? What
percentage could expect drawn weapons pointed at their parents or
children that happen to be with them that day? And don't say that it
will happen only when there is justified belief of a suspicious
passenger or pilot involved because you already defended an action where
such prior knowledge was not present; on the contrary, all indications
were that there were no suspicious persons on board that flight. If your
agency embarked on a course to totally destroy general aviation, you
have certainly shown the methods by which you want to accomplish that
goal.
I would sue their friggin' pants off, Perry, not to inhibit
legitimate pursuit of security but to eradicate this and exactly this
kind of tyranny.
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rocketman
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:22 AM
To: Boyd C. Braem
Subject: Rocket-List: Back in the USSR!
So tell me what does this mean for us peons?
As seen in AVweb
A total of 454 airports will be subject to the TSA's latest Security
Directive (SD-8G) restricting the movements of transient pilots, EAA
said this week. The list includes airports in Puerto Rico, the Virgin
Islands, American Samoa, and Guam as well as in the U.S. Click here for
the full list (PDF). The directive took effect June 1 and requires
pilots to "remain close to their aircraft," leaving it only for trips to
and from the FBO or airport exit, according to AOPA, although some
airports may also offer escorts to transient pilots.
Since individual airports may develop a variety of programs that
would satisfy the TSA directive, pilots need to call ahead to their
destinations and ask the airport operator or an FBO on the field for
information about that airport's security requirements, EAA says. The
TSA is expected to provide future guidance regarding self-fueling and
emergencies. The full text of the security directive has not been made
public. The new listing of airports is not the same as a list of
airports (PDF) released by the TSA in January for the Large Aircraft
Security Program.
CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION JUSTIFIES RAMP CHECK
A spokeswoman for the Washington headquarters of U.S. Customs and
Border Protection (CBP) says the drawing of weapons in the ramp
inspection of an aircraft in Long Beach, Calif., last month was
justified but not "normal." Kelly Ivahnenko also told AVweb that general
aviation pilots can expect more ramp checks by CBP agents thanks to the
newly-instituted Electronic Advance Passenger Information System
(eAPIS). She stressed it's unlikely many of the checks will have the
level of intensity employed May 22 with Long Beach, Calif., pilot David
Perry and his three passengers. Ivahnenko said in an interview on
Tuesday that there was a "heightened alert" involved in the Long Beach
operation but she also said she could not discuss the circumstances that
led to a more aggressive posture than normal by the CBP and local
police. She also said that while eAPIS had nothing to do with the Long
Beach inspection, information provided through eAPIS could result in
more frequent GA inspections. The system, which involves the online
filing of flight and passenger information for transborder flights,
became mandatory on May 18. In an interview and podcast with AVweb,
Perry said he and his passengers were put in unnecessary peril by
gun-wielding enforcement officials. Ivahnenko stressed Perry's
experience is not what most pilots should expect if they're checked by
the CBP. "This I would not classify as common or routine," she said. She
said the Long Beach action was justified, even though the search turned
up nothing illegal. "While the involvement of more than one law
enforcement agency and the heightened alert of the situation were
slightly unusual, it is within (CBP's) authority to inspect inbound and
outbound travelers, vehicles, planes, cargo, etc.," she told AVweb. She
also said that only the Long Beach police officers assisting the
operation actually drew weapons and CBP agents kept theirs holstered,
something Perry vehemently disputes. "Every one of them had their
weapons out," Perry said. More...
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 3
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| Subject: | Fuel drains for 680 |
reccomendation=2C call gary kromer @ commander aero and talk about replacin
g commander drain with rebuildable cessna 182 drains. i did this last year
and they work well. gmc
From: WINGFLYER1@aol.com
Subject: Commander-List: Fuel drains for 680
I am looking for two sets of fuel drains Part #V104 and Gasket part 3 26300
80. These drains are for the out board fuel tanks . Thanks for any info. G
il Walker 615-373-5703
Choose the home loan that saves you the most $$$. Agents available at ditec
h.com
Message 4
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Thank you for the update, Steve. I'll agree to disagree on some aspects of
your position. It's a hill we don't have to die on.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of s
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 4:46 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad!
Nico,
I had missed the emphasis of your point and we're in agreement on it. No
citizen should be subject to unreasonable search, seizure or detention. Law
abiding citizens should not be facing drawn weapons. It's appalling. I think
we would both agree that this was an abuse of power on the part of duly
authorized officers. We should keep in mind this sort of abuse has happened
frequently over the years, and continues to happen. The much hated civil
libertarian groups have worked to keep these in check. What is maybe
different is that this time a different group of person was affected, one of
us.
I see the point you were trying to make was that there have always been
individuals with authorized powers, it is the use of those powers. Where we
may part ways is that I DO link these agencies and their very creation to
abusive powers by the nature of their existence. While I hear the words
liberty and freedom tossed around a lot, we've exchanged many of our
liberties, freedoms and rights, for a sense of safety. Shaking down Grandma
at airports, a seven foot high chain link fence that only goes around the
front of the airport..... It makes me sick to see that fence keeping the
public away, instead of the picnic bench we used to have. Domestic
wire-tapping, surveillance, banking transactions.....
Nico, my last message was a good natured poke in the side. It just seems
silly on the part of some of the right to be pointing fingers at powerful
government agencies a couple months into a new administration, when nothing
was said about those tentacles stretching into our lives at the time, and
those more interested in civil liberties were mocked.
We don't have a local policeman. Up until last year we had a fella who
filled in as a part-time constable. I think he might be full-time now.
I read the AvWeb article. I'll check out Russ Nile's blog.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: nico <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com> css
Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 10:12 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fuming Mad!
Hi Steve.
I am not complaining about the powers, I am complaining about the abuse of
those powers. Linking this abuse to the agencies, per se, just doesn't make
sense. The media ignoring the incident is the needle in the side and the
acceleration of the anger. Your local policeman has similar powers based
upon reasonable belief of a crime, which is a totally subjective call making
it nearly impossible to challenge. You can be locked up for several hours
without any cause whatsoever and you have no recourse at all. David Perry
and his passengers were detained for only about one hour, well within the
limit of ad hoc detention. I don't gripe about that. If you read my opinion
on the matter, you will see that I avoided the part where these officers
were within their rights; rights they did not acquire by any agency that was
created in '03 or any recent decade before that. Their abuse was with the
manner in which they executed their duties. Having firearms drawn on
civilians without cause is abuse of the highest order. This sets a decorum
of violence first, which is something that is totally foreign to the general
aviation community and in this country as a whole for that matter. Not even
police officers approaching suspicious vehicles during traffic stops draw
their guns. They are merely prepared to act quickly, which is reasonable.
Getting back to your local policeman. If he would arrest you at gunpoint
without any cause you would have a complaint of abuse, violating your civil
rights and unnecessarily endangering your life, which would be a legitimate
complaint and, in my (not always) humble opinion, something for which you
can sue.
The mere fact that they were released after only an hour's interrogation, is
clear proof that there was no cause and no prior information about the
pilot, the passengers or the plane or they would have been detained or at
least questioned for a longer period of time. Russ Niles' pathetic paint-job
of the incident in AvWeb is a disgrace.
Nico
The incident:
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1392-full.html#200528
and Russ Niles' blog:
http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/GA_A_Soft_Target_For_Security_200535-1.ht
ml
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad!
NIco,
What a mess.
Where on earth were the conservatives when these agencies were being formed?
This department was created back in '03 when all I ever heard out of
conservatives was whining about keeping us safe. That's all that was spoken
about. Creating these giant agencies, bypassing courts, bypassing
surveillance laws on citizens. All of this was done in the name of keeping
us safe and being 'tough' on terrorists. Attempts to limit these powers and
support civil liberties were seen as 'soft'.
A couple months into the new guy's administration having inheriting these
things, and with the radicalization of the political climate, we're in a
box. If the new guy moves to defang border patrol and Homeland Security
he'll be slammed for making us more vulnerable.
Not trying to be funny here, I just really wonder why conservatives didn't
play their classic role of limiting these powers, and contributed instead to
their massive buildup.
See you didn't need to worry, with you not posting about art films I can go
back to normal.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:08 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Fuming Mad!
Folks,
I am fuming mad.
The Long Beach action against private citizens is an atrocity. One can
understand if there were concerns for suspicious or dangerous persons on
that flight, but from all accounts this was a flight by all standards
similar to an outing with the family in one's automobile in the countryside.
Some brainless twit in Long Beach with a jackboot fetish decided to show his
or her prowess that day and ordered a full-scale scare initiative. I was
taught from childhood that you don't point a firearm at anybody unless you
are prepared to use it. There is no justification for assuming otherwise
with law enforcement.
Shame on Kelly Ivahnenko for defending this outrageous behavior of the rogue
priests of covert fascism. What would you have done, Kelly, if one of the
drawn weapons discharged accidentally? Or, suppose one of the passengers
lowered his hand to open the door or prevent from stumbling trying to get
out of the plane under extreme duress and one of the officers perceived that
as reaching for a weapon? I can already hear your sheepish and inadequate
response by extrapolating it from your answer here. What a shameful thing to
defend! Those who do not advocate for your dismissal and those at Long
Beach, for incompetence, is just as guilty.
Stressing that this experience is not what most pilots should expect when
they are checked by the CBP is a shameful and ignorant statement, insulting
everybody's intelligence including yours. Tell us, then, Kelly, what should
pilots expect when they are checked by the CBP? What percentage could expect
drawn weapons pointed at their parents or children that happen to be with
them that day? And don't say that it will happen only when there is
justified belief of a suspicious passenger or pilot involved because you
already defended an action where such prior knowledge was not present; on
the contrary, all indications were that there were no suspicious persons on
board that flight. If your agency embarked on a course to totally destroy
general aviation, you have certainly shown the methods by which you want to
accomplish that goal.
I would sue their friggin' pants off, Perry, not to inhibit legitimate
pursuit of security but to eradicate this and exactly this kind of tyranny.
Nico
_____
From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rocketman
Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:22 AM
Subject: Rocket-List: Back in the USSR!
So tell me what does this mean for us peons?
As seen in AVweb
A total of 454 airports will be subject to the TSA's latest Security
Directive (SD-8G) restricting the movements of transient pilots, EAA said
<http://eaa.org/news/2009/2009-06-09_list.asp> this week. The list includes
airports in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and Guam as
well as in the U.S. Click here
<http://eaa.org/news/2009/2009-06-09_tsa_airportlist.pdf> for the full list
(PDF). The directive took effect June 1 and requires pilots to "remain close
to their aircraft," leaving it only for trips to and from the FBO or airport
exit, according <http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2009/090528tsa.html>
to AOPA, although some airports may also offer escorts to transient pilots.
Since individual airports may develop a variety of programs that would
satisfy the TSA directive, pilots need to call ahead to their destinations
and ask the airport operator or an FBO on the field for information about
that airport's security requirements, EAA says. The TSA is expected to
provide future guidance regarding self-fueling and emergencies. The full
text of the security directive has not been made public. The new listing of
airports is not the same as a list
<http://www.avweb.com/pdf/general_aviation_affected_airports_2009-01.pdf> of
airports (PDF) released by the TSA in January for the Large Aircraft
Security Program.
CUSTOMS
<http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1392-full.html#200528> AND
BORDER PROTECTION JUSTIFIES RAMP CHECK
A spokeswoman for the Washington headquarters of U.S. Customs and Border
Protection (CBP) says the drawing of weapons in the ramp inspection of an
aircraft in Long Beach, Calif., last month was justified but not "normal."
Kelly Ivahnenko also told AVweb that general aviation pilots can expect more
ramp checks by CBP agents thanks to the newly-instituted Electronic Advance
Passenger Information System (eAPIS). She stressed it's unlikely many of the
checks will have the level of intensity employed May 22 with Long Beach,
Calif., pilot David Perry and his three passengers. Ivahnenko said in an
interview on Tuesday that there was a "heightened alert" involved in the
Long Beach operation but she also said she could not discuss the
circumstances that led to a more aggressive posture than normal by the CBP
and local police. She also said that while eAPIS had nothing to do with the
Long Beach inspection, information provided through eAPIS could result in
more frequent GA inspections. The system, which involves the online filing
of flight and passenger information for transborder flights, became
mandatory on May 18. In an interview
<http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/PilotProtestsCustomsCheck_200519-1.htm
l> and podcast <http://www.avweb.com/alm?podcast20090608&kw=RelatedStory>
with AVweb, Perry said he and his passengers were put in unnecessary peril
by gun-wielding enforcement officials. Ivahnenko stressed Perry's experience
is not what most pilots should expect if they're checked by the CBP. "This I
would not classify as common or routine," she said. She said the Long Beach
action was justified, even though the search turned up nothing illegal.
"While the involvement of more than one law enforcement agency and the
heightened alert of the situation were slightly unusual, it is within
(CBP's) authority to inspect inbound and outbound travelers, vehicles,
planes, cargo, etc.," she told AVweb. She also said that only the Long Beach
police officers assisting the operation actually drew weapons and CBP agents
kept theirs holstered, something Perry vehemently disputes. "Every one of
them had their weapons out," Perry said. More...
<http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1392-full.html#200528>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 5
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| Subject: | What was he thinking... |
http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=65426
How would he have landed on that road? Surely hitting that SUV was a life
saver from what I can see. It provided him with a sudden stop with lots of
people around to pull them from the wreck. Had he hit the rocks on the side
trying to land on that narrow road, which appears inevitable, he would have
cart-wheeled and who knows what that outcome would have been. There is a
deep valley to the left in which he could have descended giving him many
more options. Or, he wasn't trying to land at all but buzz the SUV and being
too close to the hill he could have encountered sudden turbulence or a
downdraft.
Since they all survived, we'll know soon enough.
Nico
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