---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/16/09: 2 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:55 AM - Re: Commander-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/15/09 (WINGFLYER1@aol.com) 2. 02:13 PM - IO 720 fuel pump and pressure (Philip Guziec) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:08 AM PST US From: WINGFLYER1@aol.com Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commander-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 06/15/09 Mason , Thanks for the info,I`ll give him a call. Again Thanks Gil In a message dated 6/16/2009 12:57:13 A.M. Central America Standard , commander-list@matronics.com writes: * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Commander-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Commander-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 09-06-15&Archive=Commander Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 2009-06-15&Archive=Commander =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/15/09: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:22 AM - Sept flyin and Convention now on website (nico css) 2. 04:55 AM - Re: Fuming Mad! (s) 3. 05:59 AM - Re: Fuel drains for 680 (MASON CHEVAILLIER) 4. 09:56 AM - Re: Fuming Mad! (nico css) 5. 12:41 PM - What was he thinking... (nico css) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:25 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Commander-List: Sept flyin and Convention now on website Folks, The Flyin and convention notice and subscription form is on the website www.aerocommander.com Please check it out and let me know if you spot anything that needs to be fixed or said differently. Thanks Nico ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:04 AM PST US From: "s" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Nico, I had missed the emphasis of your point and we're in agreement on it. No citizen should be subject to unreasonable search, seizure or detention. Law abiding citizens should not be facing drawn weapons. It's appalling. I think we would both agree that this was an abuse of power on the part of duly authorized officers. We should keep in mind this sort of abuse has happened frequently over the years, and continues to happen. The much hated civil libertarian groups have worked to keep these in check. What is maybe different is that this time a different group of person was affected, one of us. I see the point you were trying to make was that there have always been individuals with authorized powers, it is the use of those powers. Where we may part ways is that I DO link these agencies and their very creation to abusive powers by the nature of their existence. While I hear the words liberty and freedom tossed around a lot, we've exchanged many of our liberties, freedoms and rights, for a sense of safety. Shaking down Grandma at airports, a seven foot high chain link fence that only goes around the front of the airport..... It makes me sick to see that fence keeping the public away, instead of the picnic bench we used to have. Domestic wire-tapping, surveillance, banking transactions..... Nico, my last message was a good natured poke in the side. It just seems silly on the part of some of the right to be pointing fingers at powerful government agencies a couple months into a new administration, when nothing was said about those tentacles stretching into our lives at the time, and those more interested in civil liberties were mocked. We don't have a local policeman. Up until last year we had a fella who filled in as a part-time constable. I think he might be full-time now. I read the AvWeb article. I'll check out Russ Nile's blog. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 10:12 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Hi Steve. I am not complaining about the powers, I am complaining about the abuse of those powers. Linking this abuse to the agencies, per se, just doesn't make sense. The media ignoring the incident is the needle in the side and the acceleration of the anger. Your local policeman has similar powers based upon reasonable belief of a crime, which is a totally subjective call making it nearly impossible to challenge. You can be locked up for several hours without any cause whatsoever and you have no recourse at all. David Perry and his passengers were detained for only about one hour, well within the limit of ad hoc detention. I don't gripe about that. If you read my opinion on the matter, you will see that I avoided the part where these officers were within their rights; rights they did not acquire by any agency that was created in '03 or any recent decade before that. Their abuse was with the manner in which they executed their duties. Having firearms drawn on civilians without cause is abuse of the highest order. This sets a decorum of violence first, which is something that is totally foreign to the general aviation community and in this country as a whole for that matter. Not even police officers approaching suspicious vehicles during traffic stops draw their guns. They are merely prepared to act quickly, which is reasonable. Getting back to your local policeman. If he would arrest you at gunpoint without any cause you would have a complaint of abuse, violating your civil rights and unnecessarily endangering your life, which would be a legitimate complaint and, in my (not always) humble opinion, something for which you can sue. The mere fact that they were released after only an hour's interrogation, is clear proof that there was no cause and no prior information about the pilot, the passengers or the plane or they would have been detained or at least questioned for a longer period of time. Russ Niles' pathetic paint-job of the incident in AvWeb is a disgrace. Nico The incident: http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1392-full.html#200528 and Russ Niles' blog: http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/GA_A_Soft_Target_For_Security_200535-1 .html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:07 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! NIco, What a mess. Where on earth were the conservatives when these agencies were being formed? This department was created back in '03 when all I ever heard out of conservatives was whining about keeping us safe. That's all that was spoken about. Creating these giant agencies, bypassing courts, bypassing surveillance laws on citizens. All of this was done in the name of keeping us safe and being 'tough' on terrorists. Attempts to limit these powers and support civil liberties were seen as 'soft'. A couple months into the new guy's administration having inheriting these things, and with the radicalization of the political climate, we're in a box. If the new guy moves to defang border patrol and Homeland Security he'll be slammed for making us more vulnerable. Not trying to be funny here, I just really wonder why conservatives didn't play their classic role of limiting these powers, and contributed instead to their massive buildup. See you didn't need to worry, with you not posting about art films I can go back to normal. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:08 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Folks, I am fuming mad. The Long Beach action against private citizens is an atrocity. One can understand if there were concerns for suspicious or dangerous persons on that flight, but from all accounts this was a flight by all standards similar to an outing with the family in one's automobile in the countryside. Some brainless twit in Long Beach with a jackboot fetish decided to show his or her prowess that day and ordered a full-scale scare initiative. I was taught from childhood that you don't point a firearm at anybody unless you are prepared to use it. There is no justification for assuming otherwise with law enforcement. Shame on Kelly Ivahnenko for defending this outrageous behavior of the rogue priests of covert fascism. What would you have done, Kelly, if one of the drawn weapons discharged accidentally? Or, suppose one of the passengers lowered his hand to open the door or prevent from stumbling trying to get out of the plane under extreme duress and one of the officers perceived that as reaching for a weapon? I can already hear your sheepish and inadequate response by extrapolating it from your answer here. What a shameful thing to defend! Those who do not advocate for your dismissal and those at Long Beach, for incompetence, is just as guilty. Stressing that this experience is not what most pilots should expect when they are checked by the CBP is a shameful and ignorant statement, insulting everybody's intelligence including yours. Tell us, then, Kelly, what should pilots expect when they are checked by the CBP? What percentage could expect drawn weapons pointed at their parents or children that happen to be with them that day? And don't say that it will happen only when there is justified belief of a suspicious passenger or pilot involved because you already defended an action where such prior knowledge was not present; on the contrary, all indications were that there were no suspicious persons on board that flight. If your agency embarked on a course to totally destroy general aviation, you have certainly shown the methods by which you want to accomplish that goal. I would sue their friggin' pants off, Perry, not to inhibit legitimate pursuit of security but to eradicate this and exactly this kind of tyranny. Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rocketman Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:22 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Back in the USSR! So tell me what does this mean for us peons? As seen in AVweb A total of 454 airports will be subject to the TSA's latest Security Directive (SD-8G) restricting the movements of transient pilots, EAA said this week. The list includes airports in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and Guam as well as in the U.S. Click here for the full list (PDF). The directive took effect June 1 and requires pilots to "remain close to their aircraft," leaving it only for trips to and from the FBO or airport exit, according to AOPA, although some airports may also offer escorts to transient pilots. Since individual airports may develop a variety of programs that would satisfy the TSA directive, pilots need to call ahead to their destinations and ask the airport operator or an FBO on the field for information about that airport's security requirements, EAA says. The TSA is expected to provide future guidance regarding self-fueling and emergencies. The full text of the security directive has not been made public. The new listing of airports is not the same as a list of airports (PDF) released by the TSA in January for the Large Aircraft Security Program. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION JUSTIFIES RAMP CHECK A spokeswoman for the Washington headquarters of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) says the drawing of weapons in the ramp inspection of an aircraft in Long Beach, Calif., last month was justified but not "normal." Kelly Ivahnenko also told AVweb that general aviation pilots can expect more ramp checks by CBP agents thanks to the newly-instituted Electronic Advance Passenger Information System (eAPIS). She stressed it's unlikely many of the checks will have the level of intensity employed May 22 with Long Beach, Calif., pilot David Perry and his three passengers. Ivahnenko said in an interview on Tuesday that there was a "heightened alert" involved in the Long Beach operation but she also said she could not discuss the circumstances that led to a more aggressive posture than normal by the CBP and local police. She also said that while eAPIS had nothing to do with the Long Beach inspection, information provided through eAPIS could result in more frequent GA inspections. The system, which involves the online filing of flight and passenger information for transborder flights, became mandatory on May 18. In an interview and podcast with AVweb, Perry said he and his passengers were put in unnecessary peril by gun-wielding enforcement officials. Ivahnenko stressed Perry's experience is not what most pilots should expect if they're checked by the CBP. "This I would not classify as common or routine," she said. She said the Long Beach action was justified, even though the search turned up nothing illegal. "While the involvement of more than one law enforcement agency and the heightened alert of the situation were slightly unusual, it is within (CBP's) authority to inspect inbound and outbound travelers, vehicles, planes, cargo, etc.," she told AVweb. She also said that only the Long Beach police officers assisting the operation actually drew weapons and CBP agents kept theirs holstered, something Perry vehemently disputes. "Every one of them had their weapons out," Perry said. More... href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:40 AM PST US From: MASON CHEVAILLIER Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fuel drains for 680 reccomendation=2C call gary kromer @ commander aero and talk about replacin g commander drain with rebuildable cessna 182 drains. i did this last year and they work well. gmc From: WINGFLYER1@aol.com Subject: Commander-List: Fuel drains for 680 I am looking for two sets of fuel drains Part #V104 and Gasket part 3 26300 80. These drains are for the out board fuel tanks . Thanks for any info. G il Walker 615-373-5703 Choose the home loan that saves you the most $$$. Agents available at ditec h.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:30 AM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Thank you for the update, Steve. I'll agree to disagree on some aspects of your position. It's a hill we don't have to die on. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of s Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 4:46 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Nico, I had missed the emphasis of your point and we're in agreement on it. No citizen should be subject to unreasonable search, seizure or detention. Law abiding citizens should not be facing drawn weapons. It's appalling. I think we would both agree that this was an abuse of power on the part of duly authorized officers. We should keep in mind this sort of abuse has happened frequently over the years, and continues to happen. The much hated civil libertarian groups have worked to keep these in check. What is maybe different is that this time a different group of person was affected, one of us. I see the point you were trying to make was that there have always been individuals with authorized powers, it is the use of those powers. Where we may part ways is that I DO link these agencies and their very creation to abusive powers by the nature of their existence. While I hear the words liberty and freedom tossed around a lot, we've exchanged many of our liberties, freedoms and rights, for a sense of safety. Shaking down Grandma at airports, a seven foot high chain link fence that only goes around the front of the airport..... It makes me sick to see that fence keeping the public away, instead of the picnic bench we used to have. Domestic wire-tapping, surveillance, banking transactions..... Nico, my last message was a good natured poke in the side. It just seems silly on the part of some of the right to be pointing fingers at powerful government agencies a couple months into a new administration, when nothing was said about those tentacles stretching into our lives at the time, and those more interested in civil liberties were mocked. We don't have a local policeman. Up until last year we had a fella who filled in as a part-time constable. I think he might be full-time now. I read the AvWeb article. I'll check out Russ Nile's blog. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Sunday, June 14, 2009 10:12 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Hi Steve. I am not complaining about the powers, I am complaining about the abuse of those powers. Linking this abuse to the agencies, per se, just doesn't make sense. The media ignoring the incident is the needle in the side and the acceleration of the anger. Your local policeman has similar powers based upon reasonable belief of a crime, which is a totally subjective call making it nearly impossible to challenge. You can be locked up for several hours without any cause whatsoever and you have no recourse at all. David Perry and his passengers were detained for only about one hour, well within the limit of ad hoc detention. I don't gripe about that. If you read my opinion on the matter, you will see that I avoided the part where these officers were within their rights; rights they did not acquire by any agency that was created in '03 or any recent decade before that. Their abuse was with the manner in which they executed their duties. Having firearms drawn on civilians without cause is abuse of the highest order. This sets a decorum of violence first, which is something that is totally foreign to the general aviation community and in this country as a whole for that matter. Not even police officers approaching suspicious vehicles during traffic stops draw their guns. They are merely prepared to act quickly, which is reasonable. Getting back to your local policeman. If he would arrest you at gunpoint without any cause you would have a complaint of abuse, violating your civil rights and unnecessarily endangering your life, which would be a legitimate complaint and, in my (not always) humble opinion, something for which you can sue. The mere fact that they were released after only an hour's interrogation, is clear proof that there was no cause and no prior information about the pilot, the passengers or the plane or they would have been detained or at least questioned for a longer period of time. Russ Niles' pathetic paint-job of the incident in AvWeb is a disgrace. Nico The incident: http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1392-full.html#200528 and Russ Niles' blog: http://www.avweb.com/blogs/insider/GA_A_Soft_Target_For_Security_200535-1.ht ml _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2009 8:07 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! NIco, What a mess. Where on earth were the conservatives when these agencies were being formed? This department was created back in '03 when all I ever heard out of conservatives was whining about keeping us safe. That's all that was spoken about. Creating these giant agencies, bypassing courts, bypassing surveillance laws on citizens. All of this was done in the name of keeping us safe and being 'tough' on terrorists. Attempts to limit these powers and support civil liberties were seen as 'soft'. A couple months into the new guy's administration having inheriting these things, and with the radicalization of the political climate, we're in a box. If the new guy moves to defang border patrol and Homeland Security he'll be slammed for making us more vulnerable. Not trying to be funny here, I just really wonder why conservatives didn't play their classic role of limiting these powers, and contributed instead to their massive buildup. See you didn't need to worry, with you not posting about art films I can go back to normal. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: nico css Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 2:08 PM Subject: Commander-List: Fuming Mad! Folks, I am fuming mad. The Long Beach action against private citizens is an atrocity. One can understand if there were concerns for suspicious or dangerous persons on that flight, but from all accounts this was a flight by all standards similar to an outing with the family in one's automobile in the countryside. Some brainless twit in Long Beach with a jackboot fetish decided to show his or her prowess that day and ordered a full-scale scare initiative. I was taught from childhood that you don't point a firearm at anybody unless you are prepared to use it. There is no justification for assuming otherwise with law enforcement. Shame on Kelly Ivahnenko for defending this outrageous behavior of the rogue priests of covert fascism. What would you have done, Kelly, if one of the drawn weapons discharged accidentally? Or, suppose one of the passengers lowered his hand to open the door or prevent from stumbling trying to get out of the plane under extreme duress and one of the officers perceived that as reaching for a weapon? I can already hear your sheepish and inadequate response by extrapolating it from your answer here. What a shameful thing to defend! Those who do not advocate for your dismissal and those at Long Beach, for incompetence, is just as guilty. Stressing that this experience is not what most pilots should expect when they are checked by the CBP is a shameful and ignorant statement, insulting everybody's intelligence including yours. Tell us, then, Kelly, what should pilots expect when they are checked by the CBP? What percentage could expect drawn weapons pointed at their parents or children that happen to be with them that day? And don't say that it will happen only when there is justified belief of a suspicious passenger or pilot involved because you already defended an action where such prior knowledge was not present; on the contrary, all indications were that there were no suspicious persons on board that flight. If your agency embarked on a course to totally destroy general aviation, you have certainly shown the methods by which you want to accomplish that goal. I would sue their friggin' pants off, Perry, not to inhibit legitimate pursuit of security but to eradicate this and exactly this kind of tyranny. Nico _____ From: owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rocket-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rocketman Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 7:22 AM Subject: Rocket-List: Back in the USSR! So tell me what does this mean for us peons? As seen in AVweb A total of 454 airports will be subject to the TSA's latest Security Directive (SD-8G) restricting the movements of transient pilots, EAA said this week. The list includes airports in Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and Guam as well as in the U.S. Click here for the full list (PDF). The directive took effect June 1 and requires pilots to "remain close to their aircraft," leaving it only for trips to and from the FBO or airport exit, according to AOPA, although some airports may also offer escorts to transient pilots. Since individual airports may develop a variety of programs that would satisfy the TSA directive, pilots need to call ahead to their destinations and ask the airport operator or an FBO on the field for information about that airport's security requirements, EAA says. The TSA is expected to provide future guidance regarding self-fueling and emergencies. The full text of the security directive has not been made public. The new listing of airports is not the same as a list of airports (PDF) released by the TSA in January for the Large Aircraft Security Program. CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION JUSTIFIES RAMP CHECK A spokeswoman for the Washington headquarters of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) says the drawing of weapons in the ramp inspection of an aircraft in Long Beach, Calif., last month was justified but not "normal." Kelly Ivahnenko also told AVweb that general aviation pilots can expect more ramp checks by CBP agents thanks to the newly-instituted Electronic Advance Passenger Information System (eAPIS). She stressed it's unlikely many of the checks will have the level of intensity employed May 22 with Long Beach, Calif., pilot David Perry and his three passengers. Ivahnenko said in an interview on Tuesday that there was a "heightened alert" involved in the Long Beach operation but she also said she could not discuss the circumstances that led to a more aggressive posture than normal by the CBP and local police. She also said that while eAPIS had nothing to do with the Long Beach inspection, information provided through eAPIS could result in more frequent GA inspections. The system, which involves the online filing of flight and passenger information for transborder flights, became mandatory on May 18. In an interview and podcast with AVweb, Perry said he and his passengers were put in unnecessary peril by gun-wielding enforcement officials. Ivahnenko stressed Perry's experience is not what most pilots should expect if they're checked by the CBP. "This I would not classify as common or routine," she said. She said the Long Beach action was justified, even though the search turned up nothing illegal. "While the involvement of more than one law enforcement agency and the heightened alert of the situation were slightly unusual, it is within (CBP's) authority to inspect inbound and outbound travelers, vehicles, planes, cargo, etc.," she told AVweb. She also said that only the Long Beach police officers assisting the operation actually drew weapons and CBP agents kept theirs holstered, something Perry vehemently disputes. "Every one of them had their weapons out," Perry said. More... href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:41:56 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: Commander-List: What was he thinking... http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=65426 How would he have landed on that road? Surely hitting that SUV was a life saver from what I can see. It provided him with a sudden stop with lots of people around to pull them from the wreck. Had he hit the rocks on the side trying to land on that narrow road, which appears inevitable, he would have cart-wheeled and who knows what that outcome would have been. There is a deep valley to the left in which he could have descended giving him many more options. Or, he wasn't trying to land at all but buzz the SUV and being too close to the hill he could have encountered sudden turbulence or a downdraft. Since they all survived, we'll know soon enough. Nico **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! eExcfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:18 PM PST US From: Philip Guziec Subject: Commander-List: IO 720 fuel pump and pressure Cross posted to fish for IO 720 experience. Well, my new bird, which apparently the FAA designates as a SW50,is safely snugged into a heated community hangar at UGN, and I'm eagerly looking forward to transition traning. However, on the delivery flight,teh rightengine (IO 720) showed a fuel pressure of 16 psi when running on the engine driven fuel pump which was recently replaced (for the second time). After the replacement, the fuel pressure tested fine, but on the short flight to UGN it showed 16 vs a 22 to 25 psi targetrange. The boost pump works in the 22-25 range. The pump is adjustable, so the pressure can be raised. However, is this likely the result of a break-in drift in fuel pressure or should I be concerned that the pump will soon fail? I don't recall a fuel pressure drift after the install of a new fuel pump on my IO 360, and I'm assuming this is of a similar design. Thoughts? Phil SW50 M20E Turbo UGN ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.