Today's Message Index:
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1. 02:37 AM - Re: FW: If it an't "Boeing" I an't going,, (Dan Brady)
2. 12:54 PM - Fw: FW: If it an't "Boeing" I an't going,, (Dan Brady)
3. 01:10 PM - Re: FW: If it an't "Boeing" I an't going,, (John Vormbaum)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: FW: If it an't "Boeing" I an't going,, |
While watching TV coverage of the Airbus that crashed departing LGA a
salvage crew recovered the vert.fin/rudder from the water looking like
new. It obviously separated from the aircraft long before final
impact....whoa I said that's not right. I checked with one of our sons
who works maint. at United ORD who had along with most of his coworkers
been complaining about the so called 'employee owned' company's decision
to buy a bunch of Airbuses which they considered accidents made out of
shit waiting for a place to happen. I told him what I had seen & he said
he wasn't supprised as they had been fighting with management & the FAA
that the attach points were mickey-mouse & proper inspections were a
major project so the inspection process was changed to merely a visual
look at the external skins. When the SA to EUR flight was reported down
in turbulent conditions I said to some fellow pilots "I wonder if
they'll find a pristine fin/rudder floating in the Atlantic?". Today an
Airbus went down off the coast of Africa attempting a landing in
turbulent conditions. In the LGA crash the NTSB said it was caused by
the aircrew overreacting to wake turbulence by applying full rudder
deflection. We had always been told that in a stall condition or low
airspeed encounters with turbulence all aircraft were designed so that
full deflection of any control surface could not result in damage to the
control or its attach points.....they have now begun revising the
training procedures. I guess that's cheaper than building a safe
airplane. Dan the desert duck 77B
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: commander-list@matronics.com ; rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 5:31 PM
Subject: Commander-List: FW: If it an't "Boeing" I an't going,,
Anybody has any experience with this?
Makes the term "If It an't Boeing I an't going" have more meaning
Subject: Air France Accident: Smoking Gun Found
A Brazilian Naval unit reportedly found the complete vertical
fin/rudder
assembly of the doomed aircraft floating some 30 miles from the main
debris
field. The search for the flight recorders goes on, but given the
failure
history of the vertical fins on A300-series aircraft, an analysis of
its
structure at the point of failure will likely yield the primary cause
factor
in the breakup of the aircraft, with the flight recorder data (if
found)
providing only secondary contributing phenomena.
The fin-failure-leading-to-breakup sequence is strongly suggested in
the
attached (below) narrative report by George Larson, Editor emeritus of
Smithsonian Air & Space Magazine.
It's regrettable that these aircraft are permitted to continue in
routine
flight operations with this known structural defect It appears that
safety
finishes last within Airbus Industries, behind national pride and
economics.
Hopefully, this accident will force the issue to be addressed,
requiring at
a minimum restricted operations of selected platforms, and grounding
of some
high-time aircraft until a re-engineered (strengthened) vertical
fin/rudder
attachment structure can be incorporated.
This is an account of a discussion I had recently with a
maintenance
professional who salvages airliner airframes for a living. He has been
at it
for a while, dba BMI Salvage at Opa Locka Airport in Florida. In the
process
of stripping parts, he sees things few others are able to see.
His observations confirm prior assessments of Airbus structural
deficiencies
within our flight test and aero structures communities by those who
have
seen the closely held reports of A3XX-series vertical fin failures.
His observations:
"I have scrapped just about every type of transport aircraft from
A-310,
A-320, B-747, 727, 737, 707, DC-3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, MD-80, L-188,
L1011 and various Martin, Convair and KC-97 aircraft. Over a hundred
of
them.
Airbus products are the flimsiest and most poorly designed as far as
airframe structure is concerned by an almost obsession to utilize
composite
materials.
I have one A310 vertical fin on the premises from a demonstration I
just
performed. It was pathetic to see the composite structure shatter as
it
did, something a Boeing product will not do.
The vertical fin along with the composite hinges on rudder and
elevators is
the worst example of structural use of composites I have ever seen and
I am
not surprised by the current pictures of rescue crews recovering the
complete Vertical fin and rudder assembly at some distance from the
crash
site.
The Airbus line has a history of both multiple rudder losses and a
vertical
fin and rudder separation from the airframe as was the case in NY with
AA.
As an old non-radar equipped DC4 pilot who flew through many a
thunderstorm
in Africa along the equator, I am quite familiar with their ferocity.
It is
not difficult to understand how such a storm might have stressed an
aircraft
structure to failure at its weakest point, and especially so in the
presence of instrumentation problems.
I replied with this:
"I'm watching very carefully the orchestration of the inquiry by
French
officials and Airbus. I think I can smell a concerted effort to steer
discussion away from structural issues and onto sensors, etc. Now Air
France, at the behest of their pilots' union, is replacing all the air
data
sensors on the Airbus fleet, which creates a distraction and shifts
the
media's focus away from the real problem.
It's difficult to delve into the structural issue without wading into
the
Boeing vs. Airbus swamp, where any observation is instantly tainted by
its
origin. Americans noting any Airbus structural issues (A380 early
failure
of wing in static test; loss of vertical surfaces in Canadian fleet
prior to
AA A300, e.g.) will be attacked by the other side as partisan, biased,
etc.
"
His follow-up:
One gets a really unique insight into structural issues when one has
first-hand experience in the dismantling process.
I am an A&P, FEJ and an ATP with 7000 flight hours and I was
absolutely
stunned, flabbergasted when I realized that the majority of internal
airframe structural supports on the A 310 which appear to be aluminum
are
actually rolled composite material with aluminum rod ends. They
shattered.
Three years ago we had a storm come through, with gusts up to 60-70
kts.,
catching several A320s tied down on the line, out in the open.
The A320 elevators and rudder hinges whose actuators had been
removed shattered and the rudder and elevators came off.
Upon closer inspection I realized that not only were the rear spars
composite but so were the hinges. While Boeing also uses composite
material in its airfoil structures, the actual attach fittings for the
elevators, rudder, vertical and horizontal stabilizers are all of
machined
aluminum."
-----------------(end of narrative)---------------
Message 2
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| Subject: | FW: If it an't "Boeing" I an't going,, |
Not sure if this went through or not, as I didn't see it in my club
mail.\
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Brady
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: If it an't "Boeing" I an't going,,
While watching TV coverage of the Airbus that crashed departing LGA a
salvage crew recovered the vert.fin/rudder from the water looking like
new. It obviously separated from the aircraft long before final
impact....whoa I said that's not right. I checked with one of our sons
who works maint. at United ORD who had along with most of his coworkers
been complaining about the so called 'employee owned' company's decision
to buy a bunch of Airbuses which they considered accidents made out of
shit waiting for a place to happen. I told him what I had seen & he said
he wasn't supprised as they had been fighting with management & the FAA
that the attach points were mickey-mouse & proper inspections were a
major project so the inspection process was changed to merely a visual
look at the external skins. When the SA to EUR flight was reported down
in turbulent conditions I said to some fellow pilots "I wonder if
they'll find a pristine fin/rudder floating in the Atlantic?". Today an
Airbus went down off the coast of Africa attempting a landing in
turbulent conditions. In the LGA crash the NTSB said it was caused by
the aircrew overreacting to wake turbulence by applying full rudder
deflection. We had always been told that in a stall condition or low
airspeed encounters with turbulence all aircraft were designed so that
full deflection of any control surface could not result in damage to the
control or its attach points.....they have now begun revising the
training procedures. I guess that's cheaper than building a safe
airplane. Dan the desert duck 77B
----- Original Message -----
From: nico css
To: commander-list@matronics.com ; rocket-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 5:31 PM
Subject: Commander-List: FW: If it an't "Boeing" I an't going,,
Anybody has any experience with this?
Makes the term "If It an't Boeing I an't going" have more meaning
Subject: Air France Accident: Smoking Gun Found
A Brazilian Naval unit reportedly found the complete vertical
fin/rudder
assembly of the doomed aircraft floating some 30 miles from the main
debris
field. The search for the flight recorders goes on, but given the
failure
history of the vertical fins on A300-series aircraft, an analysis of
its
structure at the point of failure will likely yield the primary cause
factor
in the breakup of the aircraft, with the flight recorder data (if
found)
providing only secondary contributing phenomena.
The fin-failure-leading-to-breakup sequence is strongly suggested in
the
attached (below) narrative report by George Larson, Editor emeritus of
Smithsonian Air & Space Magazine.
It's regrettable that these aircraft are permitted to continue in
routine
flight operations with this known structural defect It appears that
safety
finishes last within Airbus Industries, behind national pride and
economics.
Hopefully, this accident will force the issue to be addressed,
requiring at
a minimum restricted operations of selected platforms, and grounding
of some
high-time aircraft until a re-engineered (strengthened) vertical
fin/rudder
attachment structure can be incorporated.
This is an account of a discussion I had recently with a
maintenance
professional who salvages airliner airframes for a living. He has been
at it
for a while, dba BMI Salvage at Opa Locka Airport in Florida. In the
process
of stripping parts, he sees things few others are able to see.
His observations confirm prior assessments of Airbus structural
deficiencies
within our flight test and aero structures communities by those who
have
seen the closely held reports of A3XX-series vertical fin failures.
His observations:
"I have scrapped just about every type of transport aircraft from
A-310,
A-320, B-747, 727, 737, 707, DC-3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, MD-80, L-188,
L1011 and various Martin, Convair and KC-97 aircraft. Over a hundred
of
them.
Airbus products are the flimsiest and most poorly designed as far as
airframe structure is concerned by an almost obsession to utilize
composite
materials.
I have one A310 vertical fin on the premises from a demonstration I
just
performed. It was pathetic to see the composite structure shatter as
it
did, something a Boeing product will not do.
The vertical fin along with the composite hinges on rudder and
elevators is
the worst example of structural use of composites I have ever seen and
I am
not surprised by the current pictures of rescue crews recovering the
complete Vertical fin and rudder assembly at some distance from the
crash
site.
The Airbus line has a history of both multiple rudder losses and a
vertical
fin and rudder separation from the airframe as was the case in NY with
AA.
As an old non-radar equipped DC4 pilot who flew through many a
thunderstorm
in Africa along the equator, I am quite familiar with their ferocity.
It is
not difficult to understand how such a storm might have stressed an
aircraft
structure to failure at its weakest point, and especially so in the
presence of instrumentation problems.
I replied with this:
"I'm watching very carefully the orchestration of the inquiry by
French
officials and Airbus. I think I can smell a concerted effort to steer
discussion away from structural issues and onto sensors, etc. Now Air
France, at the behest of their pilots' union, is replacing all the air
data
sensors on the Airbus fleet, which creates a distraction and shifts
the
media's focus away from the real problem.
It's difficult to delve into the structural issue without wading into
the
Boeing vs. Airbus swamp, where any observation is instantly tainted by
its
origin. Americans noting any Airbus structural issues (A380 early
failure
of wing in static test; loss of vertical surfaces in Canadian fleet
prior to
AA A300, e.g.) will be attacked by the other side as partisan, biased,
etc.
"
His follow-up:
One gets a really unique insight into structural issues when one has
first-hand experience in the dismantling process.
I am an A&P, FEJ and an ATP with 7000 flight hours and I was
absolutely
stunned, flabbergasted when I realized that the majority of internal
airframe structural supports on the A 310 which appear to be aluminum
are
actually rolled composite material with aluminum rod ends. They
shattered.
Three years ago we had a storm come through, with gusts up to 60-70
kts.,
catching several A320s tied down on the line, out in the open.
The A320 elevators and rudder hinges whose actuators had been
removed shattered and the rudder and elevators came off.
Upon closer inspection I realized that not only were the rear spars
composite but so were the hinges. While Boeing also uses composite
material in its airfoil structures, the actual attach fittings for the
elevators, rudder, vertical and horizontal stabilizers are all of
machined
aluminum."
-----------------(end of narrative)---------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | FW: If it an't "Boeing" I an't going,, |
I got it...and well put! I'm not a fan of Scarebuses.
do not archive
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Brady
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 12:54 PM
Subject: Fw: Commander-List: FW: If it an't "Boeing" I an't going,,
Not sure if this went through or not, as I didn't see it in my club mail.\
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan <mailto:westwindaero@clearwire.net> Brady
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: FW: If it an't "Boeing" I an't going,,
While watching TV coverage of the Airbus that crashed departing LGA a
salvage crew recovered the vert.fin/rudder from the water looking like new.
It obviously separated from the aircraft long before final impact....whoa I
said that's not right. I checked with one of our sons who works maint. at
United ORD who had along with most of his coworkers been complaining about
the so called 'employee owned' company's decision to buy a bunch of Airbuses
which they considered accidents made out of shit waiting for a place to
happen. I told him what I had seen & he said he wasn't supprised as they had
been fighting with management & the FAA that the attach points were
mickey-mouse & proper inspections were a major project so the inspection
process was changed to merely a visual look at the external skins. When the
SA to EUR flight was reported down in turbulent conditions I said to some
fellow pilots "I wonder if they'll find a pristine fin/rudder floating in
the Atlantic?". Today an Airbus went down off the coast of Africa attempting
a landing in turbulent conditions. In the LGA crash the NTSB said it was
caused by the aircrew overreacting to wake turbulence by applying full
rudder deflection. We had always been told that in a stall condition or low
airspeed encounters with turbulence all aircraft were designed so that full
deflection of any control surface could not result in damage to the control
or its attach points.....they have now begun revising the training
procedures. I guess that's cheaper than building a safe airplane. Dan the
desert duck 77B
----- Original Message -----
From: nico <mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com> css
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 5:31 PM
Subject: Commander-List: FW: If it an't "Boeing" I an't going,,
Anybody has any experience with this?
Makes the term "If It an't Boeing I an't going" have more meaning
Subject: Air France Accident: Smoking Gun Found
A Brazilian Naval unit reportedly found the complete vertical fin/rudder
assembly of the doomed aircraft floating some 30 miles from the main debris
field. The search for the flight recorders goes on, but given the failure
history of the vertical fins on A300-series aircraft, an analysis of its
structure at the point of failure will likely yield the primary cause factor
in the breakup of the aircraft, with the flight recorder data (if found)
providing only secondary contributing phenomena.
The fin-failure-leading-to-breakup sequence is strongly suggested in the
attached (below) narrative report by George Larson, Editor emeritus of
Smithsonian Air & Space Magazine.
It's regrettable that these aircraft are permitted to continue in routine
flight operations with this known structural defect It appears that safety
finishes last within Airbus Industries, behind national pride and economics.
Hopefully, this accident will force the issue to be addressed, requiring at
a minimum restricted operations of selected platforms, and grounding of some
high-time aircraft until a re-engineered (strengthened) vertical fin/rudder
attachment structure can be incorporated.
This is an account of a discussion I had recently with a maintenance
professional who salvages airliner airframes for a living. He has been at it
for a while, dba BMI Salvage at Opa Locka Airport in Florida. In the process
of stripping parts, he sees things few others are able to see.
His observations confirm prior assessments of Airbus structural deficiencies
within our flight test and aero structures communities by those who have
seen the closely held reports of A3XX-series vertical fin failures.
His observations:
"I have scrapped just about every type of transport aircraft from A-310,
A-320, B-747, 727, 737, 707, DC-3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, MD-80, L-188,
L1011 and various Martin, Convair and KC-97 aircraft. Over a hundred of
them.
Airbus products are the flimsiest and most poorly designed as far as
airframe structure is concerned by an almost obsession to utilize composite
materials.
I have one A310 vertical fin on the premises from a demonstration I just
performed. It was pathetic to see the composite structure shatter as it
did, something a Boeing product will not do.
The vertical fin along with the composite hinges on rudder and elevators is
the worst example of structural use of composites I have ever seen and I am
not surprised by the current pictures of rescue crews recovering the
complete Vertical fin and rudder assembly at some distance from the crash
site.
The Airbus line has a history of both multiple rudder losses and a vertical
fin and rudder separation from the airframe as was the case in NY with AA.
As an old non-radar equipped DC4 pilot who flew through many a thunderstorm
in Africa along the equator, I am quite familiar with their ferocity. It is
not difficult to understand how such a storm might have stressed an aircraft
structure to failure at its weakest point, and especially so in the
presence of instrumentation problems.
I replied with this:
"I'm watching very carefully the orchestration of the inquiry by French
officials and Airbus. I think I can smell a concerted effort to steer
discussion away from structural issues and onto sensors, etc. Now Air
France, at the behest of their pilots' union, is replacing all the air data
sensors on the Airbus fleet, which creates a distraction and shifts the
media's focus away from the real problem.
It's difficult to delve into the structural issue without wading into the
Boeing vs. Airbus swamp, where any observation is instantly tainted by its
origin. Americans noting any Airbus structural issues (A380 early failure
of wing in static test; loss of vertical surfaces in Canadian fleet prior to
AA A300, e.g.) will be attacked by the other side as partisan, biased, etc.
"
His follow-up:
One gets a really unique insight into structural issues when one has
first-hand experience in the dismantling process.
I am an A&P, FEJ and an ATP with 7000 flight hours and I was absolutely
stunned, flabbergasted when I realized that the majority of internal
airframe structural supports on the A 310 which appear to be aluminum are
actually rolled composite material with aluminum rod ends. They shattered.
Three years ago we had a storm come through, with gusts up to 60-70 kts.,
catching several A320s tied down on the line, out in the open.
The A320 elevators and rudder hinges whose actuators had been
removed shattered and the rudder and elevators came off.
Upon closer inspection I realized that not only were the rear spars
composite but so were the hinges. While Boeing also uses composite
material in its airfoil structures, the actual attach fittings for the
elevators, rudder, vertical and horizontal stabilizers are all of machined
aluminum."
-----------------(end of narrative)---------------
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