Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:14 AM - Re: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) (8eastbaystreet.com Gilliam)
2. 08:21 AM - Re: TCFG Directory (craig kennedy)
3. 02:30 PM - Hydraulic Failures (yourtcfg@aol.com)
4. 04:39 PM - Re: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) (nico css)
5. 05:11 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (John Vormbaum)
6. 06:22 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (nico css)
7. 06:41 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (John Vormbaum)
8. 06:53 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (Donnie Rose)
9. 07:22 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (yourtcfg@aol.com)
10. 08:43 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (John Vormbaum)
11. 09:15 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (yourtcfg@aol.com)
12. 09:59 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (John Vormbaum)
Message 1
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Subject: | Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) |
Nico=2C
Thanks much=2C Would pumping the handle hav given you any help=2Cor did you
do that?
My understanding is the tank has a small amount of fluid that the pump can'
t pump out and you have one chance to use it. However in your case it woul
d probably have atomized anyway.
Roland
From: nico@cybersuperstore.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
Hi Roland=2C
I took off from a rough strip and as I rotated the cabin was filled with a
sweet smelling vapor making the cockpit almost immediately QBI=2C which for
tunately cleared up quickly but a vapor continued to pour out from under th
e instrument panel. The inside of the plane was covered in an oily substanc
e=2C and as the hydraulic pressure dropped the wheels started drooping.
I flew back=2C feathered the engines on short final=2C landed and sat like
a passenger as the plane castored off the runway and came to a stop in the
rough. It was the pressure gauge's tube that cracked and atomized the hydra
ulic fluid into the cabin. I cannot remember whether grommets or supports w
ere not installed that caused the pressure line to vibrate excessively and
break but it may be worth your trouble to check that it is properly support
ed.
Hope this helps.
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 8eastbaystreet.com Gilliam
Sent: Saturday=2C September 05=2C 2009 6:21 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
Nico=2C
Can you elaborate on your incident with your 500? I have a 500 and would be
interested to know the problem.
Thanks in advance=2C
Roland Gilliam
> From: tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
> Date: Sat=2C 5 Sep 2009 17:54:16 -0700
>
p.bc.ca>
>
> Thanks Nico=2C I will be unable to attend Carson city especially now!
> Tom.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday=2C September 04=2C 2009 10:25 PM
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
>
>
> > <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> >
> > Hi Tom.
> >
> > Sorry about the loss. This is the second one you lost=2C right? The fir
st
> > was
> > a lot more traumatic if I remember correctly.
> > However=2C I had a similar situation in my 500=2C but=2C fortunately=2C
there were
> > very wide "side burns" on the runway and I managed to roll to a stop in
> > the
> > rough without any other damage than the broken hydraulic lines.
> >
> > Hope to see you in Carson City.
> >
> > Nico
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fis
her
> > Sent: Friday=2C September 04=2C 2009 5:30 PM
> > To: commander-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
> >
> > --> <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> >
> > Thanks Buddy=2C I am old friends with the 680FLP but I should keep my m
ind
> > open to different models=2C I would like too peruse the data.
> >
> > Tom.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <budplaster@aol.com>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Friday=2C September 04=2C 2009 4:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I AM PREPARING TO SELL MY 685 WHICH MAY BE THE ONE WITH THE LOWEST
> >> TIMES-----TT 2100 HRS=2C ENGINES 125 HRS. AND LOWEST PRICE...$200=2C00
0.
> >> FIRM.
> >
> >> IF INTERESTED=2C I WILL SEND YOU A COMPLETE SPECIFICATION SHEET AND
> >> PHOTOGRAPHS.
> >>
> >> BUDDY PLASTER
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> >> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> >> Sent: Fri=2C Sep 4=2C 2009 1:33 pm
> >> Subject: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> There is a change all right.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> C-GISS (680FLP (Mr.RPM)) is no more=2C total hydraulic failure in the
> >> starboard brake line=2C landed by the numbers without flaps=2C brakes
or
> >> steering=2C ended up careening across a ditch which bent the main spar
and
> >> tore off the right main landing gear and skidded to a stop on the righ
t
> >> side of the belly.
> >>
> >> My insurance company will be offering it up for sale "where is=2C as i
s".
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Does anyone know of a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) available for sale?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Tom Fisher
> >>
> >> formally C-GISS
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>
> >> From: yourtcfg@aol.com
> >>
> >> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> >>
> >> Sent: Friday=2C September 04=2C 2009 9:47 AM
> >>
> >> Subject: Commander-List: TCFG Directory
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi TCFG members=2C
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> We're working on this year's Membership and Vendor Directory and would
> >> appreciate it if you would let us know of any changes to your personal
> >> information or additions/changes to the Vendor listing.
> >>
> >> 0D
> >>
> >> Looking forward to the Fly-In. What a special treat to have Hoover att
end
> >> our awards Banquet. See ya in a couple of weeks.
> >>
> >>
> >> ~jb
> >>
> >>
> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.
matro
> >> nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.co
m/c
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -Matt Dralle=2C List Admin.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _=================
>
>
>
Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you=92re up to on
Facebook. Find out more.
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 2
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Subject: | Re: TCFG Directory |
JB,
Current details:
Craig Kennedy
3905 State St, 7-266
Santa Barbara, CA 93105
805 231-3236
N747H
________________________________
From: "yourtcfg@aol.com" <yourtcfg@aol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 4, 2009 9:47:53 AM
Subject: Commander-List: TCFG Directory
Hi TCFG members,
We're working on this year's Membership and Vendor Directory and would appreciate
it if you would let us know of any changes to your personal information or
additions/changes to the Vendor listing.
Looking forward to the Fly-In. What a special treat to have Hoover attend our
awards Banquet. See ya in a couple of weeks.
~jb
Message 3
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Subject: | Hydraulic Failures |
HI KIDS
?
I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures.?
Over my 30 years and well over?2000 hours of Commander experience,? I have
suffered three complete?hydraulic failures.? All in FAT nacelled Commanders.?
It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems
of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes.? The FAT nacelles do not have an electric?hyd
aux pump.? They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but
instead of an electric?aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe
in the reservoir and a hand pump.? The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric
pump.? There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a
small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency.? The engine driven pumps only
have access to the fluid from the standpipe.? There is a fitting in?the resiviour
below the standpipe that feeds only?the aux pump.? The trouble with that
system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure swi
tch.? So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid
overboard.? When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning
on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used
to stop and steer? the airplane.? The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same
standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that
a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump
is used to build pressure.??Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency?fluid
can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it.
My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B.? I had completed a normal
landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply
went? to the floor.? I was slow to react but did finally break the code and
switched the floor?valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly
pumped the handle.? The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!!?
I learned an important lesson that day.? ALWAYS check the hyd gauge?AND
press on the brakes on short final (more later).? A hard line in the belly of
the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.
Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,?N222JS.?
I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was
not extending as usual.? A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete
hyd failure.? I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD).? Grove
field is only 2200 feet long?for landing.? The gear extended and locked.?
The flaps were of course up.? I told the tower of my predicament but declined
their offer to declare an emergency.? I?switched the valve in the floor and waited?to
touch down.??The landing was normal, if a little fast, and?as the nose
wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated
the braking pressure.? I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world,
to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering.? Better
to depress the brakes and build the needed pressure.? It worked very well and
I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble.? A
flex line from the back side of the firewall had?failed.
The?last failure was only a couple?months ago in a 680?Commander destined for a
A&P school.? Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA
for its last?gear down ferry.? The airplane had only been flown?once in the last
25 years.? The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was
on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not
overly concerned.? The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully.? Those old
engines ran great!? When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle
fully down.? With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of?the flap
speed.? As I turned final, I did my?gauge and break check and to my surprise,
there was NO pressure.? The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes
were flat.? I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump.? It
worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they?started down first, changing
the airplanes trim.?With touchdown only seconds aw
ay, I?decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes
only" and again waited?for the mains to touch.? I had already pulled both throttles
to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to
the left.? As the?nose touched?I?squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle.? The
airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled
to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare.? It was only then
I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself.? Hence the swerving
on landing.? With the?drag from the windmilling?LH propeller and the RH feathered,
there was significant adverse yaw.? I was able to restart the RH engine
and again, taxied to?parking using the hand pump.? Thought this might be of
value to some of you other Commander drivers.? See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)?
Message 4
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Subject: | Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) |
Roland,
I cannot remember exactly but my recollection is that I used the pump to
make sure that the gear is down and locked. It didn't feel as if it did
anything and I slowed down to about 80 kts when the gear dropped into place.
Why I feathered the props was perhaps the most questionable action I took
but I feared a gear collapse regardless of three greens, which was perhaps
not that smart. I had a 6,500' runway with a slight uphill and having kept
the engines going I could have used asymmetric power to keep the plane on
the runway. I didn't want to run off the end of the runway which was a
concern I remember. Anyway, it turned out OK. Food for a lot of reflection,
though.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
8eastbaystreet.com Gilliam
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:59 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
Nico,
Thanks much, Would pumping the handle hav given you any help,or did you do
that?
My understanding is the tank has a small amount of fluid that the pump can't
pump out and you have one chance to use it. However in your case it would
probably have atomized anyway.
Roland
_____
From: nico@cybersuperstore.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
Hi Roland,
I took off from a rough strip and as I rotated the cabin was filled with a
sweet smelling vapor making the cockpit almost immediately QBI, which
fortunately cleared up quickly but a vapor continued to pour out from under
the instrument panel. The inside of the plane was covered in an oily
substance, and as the hydraulic pressure dropped the wheels started
drooping.
I flew back, feathered the engines on short final, landed and sat like a
passenger as the plane castored off the runway and came to a stop in the
rough. It was the pressure gauge's tube that cracked and atomized the
hydraulic fluid into the cabin. I cannot remember whether grommets or
supports were not installed that caused the pressure line to vibrate
excessively and break but it may be worth your trouble to check that it is
properly supported.
Hope this helps.
Thanks
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
8eastbaystreet.com Gilliam
Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 6:21 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
Nico,
Can you elaborate on your incident with your 500? I have a 500 and would be
interested to know the problem.
Thanks in advance,
Roland Gilliam
> From: tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
> Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:54:16 -0700
>
<tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
>
> Thanks Nico, I will be unable to attend Carson city especially now!
> Tom.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 10:25 PM
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
>
>
> > <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
> >
> > Hi Tom.
> >
> > Sorry about the loss. This is the second one you lost, right? The first
> > was
> > a lot more traumatic if I remember correctly.
> > However, I had a similar situation in my 500, but, fortunately, there
were
> > very wide "side burns" on the runway and I managed to roll to a stop in
> > the
> > rough without any other damage than the broken hydraulic lines.
> >
> > Hope to see you in Carson City.
> >
> > Nico
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
> > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Fisher
> > Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 5:30 PM
> > To: commander-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
> >
> > --> <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> >
> > Thanks Buddy, I am old friends with the 680FLP but I should keep my mind
> > open to different models, I would like too peruse the data.
> >
> > Tom.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <budplaster@aol.com>
> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com>
> > Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 4:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I AM PREPARING TO SELL MY 685 WHICH MAY BE THE ONE WITH THE LOWEST
> >> TIMES-----TT 2100 HRS, ENGINES 125 HRS. AND LOWEST PRICE...$200,000.
> >> FIRM.
> >
> >> IF INTERESTED, I WILL SEND YOU A COMPLETE SPECIFICATION SHEET AND
> >> PHOTOGRAPHS.
> >>
> >> BUDDY PLASTER
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> >> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> >> Sent: Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:33 pm
> >> Subject: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> There is a change all right.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> C-GISS (680FLP (Mr.RPM)) is no more, total hydraulic failure in the
> >> starboard brake line, landed by the numbers without flaps, brakes or
> >> steering, ended up careening across a ditch which bent the main spar
and
> >> tore off the right main landing gear and skidded to a stop on the right
> >> side of the belly.
> >>
> >> My insurance company will be offering it up for sale "where is, as is".
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Does anyone know of a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) available for sale?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Tom Fisher
> >>
> >> formally C-GISS
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >>
> >> From: yourtcfg@aol.com
> >>
> >> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> >>
> >> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 9:47 AM
> >>
> >> Subject: Commander-List: TCFG Directory
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi TCFG members,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> We're working on this year's Membership and Vendor Directory and would
> >> appreciate it if you would let us know of any changes to your personal
> >> information or additions/changes to the Vendor listing.
> >>
> >> 0D
> >>
> >> Looking forward to the Fly-In. What a special treat to have Hoover
attend
> >> our awards Banquet. See ya in a couple of weeks.
> >>
> >>
> >> ~jb
> >>
> >>
> >>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
> >> nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
> >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
> >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _=================
>
>
>
_____
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<http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:O
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
ronics.com
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Message 5
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|
Subject: | Hydraulic Failures |
Hi all,
I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a
hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker
on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no
hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear
handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system
and thought I could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No
luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and
had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down.
Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's
long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back,
and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal
power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for
directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20
knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet
before the nosegear gently collapsed at about 10 knots. The only damage was
a pair of nosegear doors, a bell crank, and some rivets.
I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it
stops".
Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half
the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up &
give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I
ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced
beautifully.
/John
PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final"
thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any
circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear
unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less
expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway
sideways at 75 knots...
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
HI KIDS
I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd
failures. Over my 30 years and well over 2000 hours of Commander
experience, I have suffered three complete hydraulic failures. All in FAT
nacelled Commanders. It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the
difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes. The FAT
nacelles do not have an electric hyd aux pump. They share the same basic
system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric aux pump, they
use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump.
The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump. There is a standpipe in
the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used
in an emergency. The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from
the standpipe. There is a fitting in the resiviour below the standpipe that
feeds only the aux pump. The trouble with that system is the aux pump is
operated by a pressure switch. So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s)
will eventually pump all the fluid overboard. When the last of the fluid is
gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of
the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer the airplane. The
FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps,
but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be
selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure. Unlike
the electric system, there is no way the emergency fluid can be pumped
overboard without he pilot knowing it.
My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B. I had completed a
normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals
simply went to the floor. I was slow to react but did finally break the
code and switched the floor valve and as the end of the runway approached, I
feverishly pumped the handle. The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel
off the end!! I learned an important lesson that day. ALWAYS check the hyd
gauge AND press on the brakes on short final (more later). A hard line in
the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.
Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,
N222JS. I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the
gear was not extending as usual. A quick glance at the pressure gauge
confirmed a complete hyd failure. I elected to fly across he river to
Troutdale Or (TLD). Grove field is only 2200 feet long for landing. The
gear extended and locked. The flaps were of course up. I told the tower of
my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency. I switched
the valve in the floor and waited to touch down. The landing was normal, if
a little fast, and as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals
and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure. I have found it
nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in
advance to operate the brakes/steering. Better to depress the brakes and
build the ne eded pressure. It worked very well and I was able to taxi to
parking with no trouble. A flex line from the back side of the firewall had
failed.
The last failure was only a couple months ago in a 680 Commander destined
for a A&P school. Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time
preparing N87YA for its last gear down ferry. The airplane had only been
flown once in the last 25 years. The hyd system would only indicate about
700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down
and very locked, I was not overly concerned. The 2.5 hour flight was
completely uneventfully. Those old engines ran great! When I entered the
patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down. With the gear
extended. the airplane never flew out of the flap speed. As I turned final,
I did my gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure.
The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat. I was
committed to the landing and tried the hand pump. It worked, but since the
flaps had been selected, they started down first, changing the airplanes
trim. With touchdown only seconds away, I decided the best salvation was to
abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited for the
mains to touch. I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I
flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left. As the nose
touched I squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle. The airplane used most
of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the
centerline with plenty of room to spare. It was only then I noticed that
the RH engine had quite and feathered itself. Hence the swerving on
landing. With the drag from the windmilling LH propeller and the RH
feathered, there was significant adverse yaw. I was able to restart the RH
engine and again, taxied to parking using the hand pump. Thought this might
be of value to some of yo! u other Commander drivers. See ya at the fly-in
(I hope!!) ;
Message 6
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Subject: | Hydraulic Failures |
what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing
John,
Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Vormbaum
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi all,
I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a
hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker
on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no
hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear
handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system
and thought I could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No
luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and
had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down.
Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's
long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back,
and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal
power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for
directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20
knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet
before the nosegear gently collapsed at about 10 knots. The only damage was
a pair of nosegear doors, a bell crank, and some rivets.
I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it
stops".
Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half
the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up &
give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I
ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced
beautifully.
/John
PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final"
thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any
circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear
unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less
expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway
sideways at 75 knots...
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
HI KIDS
I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd
failures. Over my 30 years and well over 2000 hours of Commander
experience, I have suffered three complete hydraulic failures. All in FAT
nacelled Commanders. It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the
difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes. The FAT
nacelles do not have an electric hyd aux pump. They share the same basic
system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric aux pump, they
use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump.
The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump. There is a standpipe in
the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used
in an emergency. The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from
the standpipe. There is a fitting in the resiviour below the standpipe that
feeds only the aux pump. The trouble with that system is the aux pump is
operated by a pressure switch. So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s)
will eventually pump all the fluid overboard. When the last of the fluid is
gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of
the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer the airplane. The
FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps,
but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be
selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure. Unlike
the electric system, there is no way the emergency fluid can be pumped
overboard without he pilot knowing it.
My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B. I had completed a
normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals
simply went to the floor. I was slow to react but did finally break the
code and switched the floor valve and as the end of the runway approached, I
feverishly pumped the handle. The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel
off the end!! I learned an important lesson that day. ALWAYS check the hyd
gauge AND press on the brakes on short final (more later). A hard line in
the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.
Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,
N222JS. I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the
gear was not extending as usual. A quick glance at the pressure gauge
confirmed a complete hyd failure. I elected to fly across he river to
Troutdale Or (TLD). Grove field is only 2200 feet long for landing. The
gear extended and locked. The flaps were of course up. I told the tower of
my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency. I switched
the valve in the floor and waited to touch down. The landing was normal, if
a little fast, and as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals
and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure. I have found it
nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in
advance to operate the brakes/steering. Better to depress the brakes and
build the ne eded pressure. It worked very well and I was able to taxi to
parking with no trouble. A flex line from the back side of the firewall had
failed.
The last failure was only a couple months ago in a 680 Commander destined
for a A&P school. Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time
preparing N87YA for its last gear down ferry. The airplane had only been
flown once in the last 25 years. The hyd system would only indicate about
700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down
and very locked, I was not overly concerned. The 2.5 hour flight was
completely uneventfully. Those old engines ran great! When I entered the
patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down. With the gear
extended. the airplane never flew out of the flap speed. As I turned final,
I did my gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure.
The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat. I was
committed to the landing and tried the hand pump. It worked, but since the
flaps had been selected, they started down first, changing the airplanes
trim. With touchdown only seconds away, I decided the best salvation was to
abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited for the
mains to touch. I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I
flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left. As the nose
touched I squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle. The airplane used most
of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the
centerline with plenty of room to spare. It was only then I noticed that
the RH engine had quite and feathered itself. Hence the swerving on
landing. With the drag from the windmilling LH propeller and the RH
feathered, there was significant adverse yaw. I was able to restart the RH
engine and again, taxied to parking using the hand pump. Thought this might
be of value to some of yo! u other Commander drivers. See ya at the fly-in
(I hope!!) ;
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 7
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Subject: | Hydraulic Failures |
Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I somehow missed
it :-).
/J
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing
John,
Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Vormbaum
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi all,
I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a
hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker
on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no
hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear
handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system
and thought I could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No
luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and
had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down.
Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's
long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back,
and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal
power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for
directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20
knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet
before the nosegear gently collapsed at about 10 knots. The only damage was
a pair of nosegear doors, a bell crank, and some rivets.
I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it
stops".
Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half
the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up &
give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I
ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced
beautifully.
/John
PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final"
thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any
circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear
unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less
expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway
sideways at 75 knots...
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
HI KIDS
I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd
failures. Over my 30 years and well over 2000 hours of Commander
experience, I have suffered three complete hydraulic failures. All in FAT
nacelled Commanders. It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the
difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes. The FAT
nacelles do not have an electric hyd aux pump. They share the same basic
system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric aux pump, they
use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump.
The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump. There is a standpipe in
the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used
in an emergency. The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from
the standpipe. There is a fitting in the resiviour below the standpipe that
feeds only the aux pump. The trouble with that system is the aux pump is
operated by a pressure switch. So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s)
will eventually pump all the fluid overboard. When the last of the fluid is
gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of
the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer the airplane. The
FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps,
but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be
selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure. Unlike
the electric system, there is no way the emergency fluid can be pumped
overboard without he pilot knowing it.
My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B. I had completed a
normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals
simply went to the floor. I was slow to react but did finally break the
code and switched the floor valve and as the end of the runway approached, I
feverishly pumped the handle. The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel
off the end!! I learned an important lesson that day. ALWAYS check the hyd
gauge AND press on the brakes on short final (more later). A hard line in
the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.
Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,
N222JS. I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the
gear was not extending as usual. A quick glance at the pressure gauge
confirmed a complete hyd failure. I elected to fly across he river to
Troutdale Or (TLD). Grove field is only 2200 feet long for landing. The
gear extended and locked. The flaps were of course up. I told the tower of
my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency. I switched
the valve in the floor and waited to touch down. The landing was normal, if
a little fast, and as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals
and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure. I have found it
nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in
advance to operate the brakes/steering. Better to depress the brakes and
build the ne eded pressure. It worked very well and I was able to taxi to
parking with no trouble. A flex line from the back side of the firewall had
failed.
The last failure was only a couple months ago in a 680 Commander destined
for a A&P school. Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time
preparing N87YA for its last gear down ferry. The airplane had only been
flown once in the last 25 years. The hyd system would only indicate about
700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down
and very locked, I was not overly concerned. The 2.5 hour flight was
completely uneventfully. Those old engines ran great! When I entered the
patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down. With the gear
extended. the airplane never flew out of the flap speed. As I turned final,
I did my gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure.
The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat. I was
committed to the landing and tried the hand pump. It worked, but since the
flaps had been selected, they started down first, changing the airplanes
trim. With touchdown only seconds away, I decided the best salvation was to
abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited for the
mains to touch. I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I
flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left. As the nose
touched I squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle. The airplane used most
of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the
centerline with plenty of room to spare. It was only then I noticed that
the RH engine had quite and feathered itself. Hence the swerving on
landing. With the drag from the windmilling LH propeller and the RH
feathered, there was significant adverse yaw. I was able to restart the RH
engine and again, taxied to parking using the hand pump. Thought this might
be of value to some of yo! u other Commander drivers. See ya at the fly-in
(I hope!!) ;
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Failures |
Agreed John=0A-=0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________
______________________=0AFrom: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>=0ATo: comm
ander-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, September 6, 2009 7:09:40 PM=0ASub
ject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures=0A=0A=0AHi all,=0A-=0AI also
had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard
line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on ta
keoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraul
ic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle do
wn & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thoug
ht I-could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended
up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land
knowing the nose wasn't locked down.=0A-=0ASince I had no hydraulics for
steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long (10,000 foot?) runway. I
landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted awhile down the ru
nway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That big Commander ta
il/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control. I finally lost
full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled the nose onto
the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently collapsed a
t about-10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell cr
ank, and some rivets.=0A-=0AI guess it's true what they say, "fly the air
plane all the way until it stops".=0A-=0AIncidentally, I probably could h
ave done the same landing in less than half the length. I actually had to r
oll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me enough speed to roll thr
ough the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie.
The airplane really is balanced beautifully.=0A-=0A/John=0A-=0APS: Nic
o, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing?
In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circ
umstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked
, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive &
life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 kno
ts...=0A-=0A-=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: owner-co
mmander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matro
nics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com=0ASent: Sunday, September 06, 2009
2:29 PM=0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Commander-List: Hydra
ulic Failures=0A=0A=0AHI KIDS=0A=0AI thought I might share with you some re
al world experience regarding hyd failures.- Over my 30 years and well ov
er-2000 hours of Commander experience,- I have suffered three complete
-hydraulicfailures.- All in FAT nacelled Commanders.- It would be goo
d to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems of FLAT and FA
T nacelled airplanes.- The FAT nacelles do not have an electric-hyd aux
pump.- They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but ins
tead of an electric-aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pi
pe in the reservoir and a hand pump.- The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an
electric pump.- There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended t
o isolate a small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency.- The engine
driven pumps only have access to the fluid from the standpipe.- There is
a fitting in-the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only-the aux
pump.- The trouble with that system is the
aux pump is operated by a pressure switch.- So, if a leak occurs, the en
gine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid overboard.- When the last
of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dump
ing the last of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer-
the airplane.- The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for th
e engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in th
e floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used t
o build pressure.--Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emer
gency-fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it.=0AMy fir
st failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B.- I had completed a no
rmal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals
simply went- to the floor.- I was slow to react but did finally break t
he code and switched the floor-valve and as the end of the runway approac
hed, I feverishly pumped the handle.- The airplane stopped with only the
nose wheel off the end!!- I learned an important lesson that day.- ALWA
YS check the hyd gauge-AND press on the brakes on short final (more later
).- A hard line in the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the
fluid overboard.=0AFailure number two was about ten years ago in my current
Commander 680E,-N222JS.- I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1
) when I noticed the gear was not extending as usual.- A quick glance at
the pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure.- I elected to fly ac
ross he river to Troutdale Or (TLD).- Grove field is only 2200 feet long
-for landing.- The gear extended and locked.- The flaps were of cours
e up.- I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer to dec
lare an emergency.- I-switched the valve in the floor and waited-to t
ouch down.--The landing was normal, if a little fast, and-as the nose
wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regul
ated the braking pressure.- I have found it nearly impossible, in the rea
l world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/stee
ring.- Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure.- It
worked very well and I was
able to taxi to parking with no trouble.- A flex line from the back side
of the firewall had-failed.=0AThe-last failure was only a couple-mon
ths ago in a 680-Commander destined for a A&P school.- Morris Kernick a
nd I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA for its last-gear down f
erry.- The airplane had only been flown-once in the last 25 years.- T
he hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry
permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not overly co
ncerned.- The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully.- Those old e
ngines ran great!- When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap h
andle fully down.- With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of
-the flap speed.- As I turned final, I did my-gauge and break check a
nd to my surprise, there was NO pressure.- The flaps I had called for nev
er extended and the brakes were flat.- I was committed to the landing and
tried the hand pump.- It worked, but since the flaps had been selected,
they-started down first, changing the
airplanes trim.-With touchdown only seconds away, I-decided the best s
alvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again wa
ited-for the mains to touch.- I had already pulled both throttles to fu
ll idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left.
- As the-nose touched-I-squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle.
- The airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop
and rolled to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare.- It
was only then I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself.
- Hence the swerving on landing.- With the-drag from the windmilling
-LH propeller and the RH feathered, there was significant adverse yaw.-
I was able to restart the RH engine and again, taxied to-parking using t
he hand pump.- Thought this might be of value to some of yo! u other Comm
ander drivers.- See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)- ;=0A=0A=0Ahref="http
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.mat
ronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matr
=========================0A
=0A=0A=0A
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Failures |
Great story John..
That brings up another great point.? The landing gear should extend without hyd
pressure.? The main gear uses bungee chords to assist them.? These are easy to
check visually and should be replaced every couple years if the airplane is
hangared, every year if it sits outside.??The nose gear is another story.? The
nose gear is extended by spring located in the RH inspection door, just ahead
of where the rudder pedals live.? These need?inspected and lubricated every year,?more
often?if the airplane is parked out.? To inspect them, one must get
on your knees. get a strong light and look forward and up through the aforementioned
inspection panel.? I have seen one that had corroded, stuck and was completely
broken in half!!? These are often overlooked by mechanics.? Also, your
mechanic should do an emergency extension each annual.? This is done?on jacks,
with the gear up and locked.? Then,?by?bleeding the hyd pressure to zero by
running the flaps?up and down.? It takes awhile!? Nex
t, place the gear handle down.? All the gear should go down and lock with some
gusto.? If any are "sleepy", investigate.? There are several grease fittings
so make certain they are all properly greased.? jb?????
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:30 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I somehow missed it
:-).
?
/J
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing
?
John,
Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart.
Nico
?
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi all,
?
I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard
line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on takeoff
(lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure
at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle down & getting
the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thought I?could
use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my
chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't
locked down.
?
Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long
(10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted
awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That
big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control.
I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled
the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently
collapsed at about?10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell
crank, and some rivets.
?
I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it stops".
?
Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half the
length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me
enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing
a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully.
?
/John
?
PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing?
In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circumstances,
even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked, dumping
it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive & life-threatening
than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 knots...
?
?
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
HI KIDS
?
I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures.?
Over my 30 years and well over?2000 hours of Commander experience,? I have
suffered three complete?hydraulic failures.? All in FAT nacelled Commanders.?
It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems
of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes.? The FAT nacelles do not have an electric?hyd
aux pump.? They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but
instead of an electric?aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe
in the reservoir and a hand pump.? The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric
pump.? There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a
small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency.? The engine driven pumps only
have access to the fluid from the standpipe.? There is a fitting in?the resiviour
below the standpipe that feeds only?the aux pump.? The trouble with that
system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure swi
tch.? So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid
overboard.? When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning
on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used
to stop and steer? the airplane.? The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same
standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that
a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump
is used to build pressure.??Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency?fluid
can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it.
My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B.? I had completed a normal
landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply
went? to the floor.? I was slow to react but did finally break the code and
switched the floor?valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly
pumped the handle.? The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!!?
I learned an important lesson that day.? ALWAYS check the hyd gauge?AND
press on the brakes on short final (more later).? A hard line in the belly of
the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.
Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,?N222JS.?
I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was
not extending as usual.? A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete
hyd failure.? I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD).? Grove
field is only 2200 feet long?for landing.? The gear extended and locked.?
The flaps were of course up.? I told the tower of my predicament but declined
their offer to declare an emergency.? I?switched the valve in the floor and waited?to
touch down.??The landing was normal, if a little fast, and?as the nose
wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated
the braking pressure.? I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world,
to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering.? Better
to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure.? It worked very well
and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble.? A
flex line from the back side of the firewall had?failed.
The?last failure was only a couple?months ago in a 680?Commander destined for a
A&P school.? Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA
for its last?gear down ferry.? The airplane had only been flown?once in the last
25 years.? The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was
on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not
overly concerned.? The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully.? Those old
engines ran great!? When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle
fully down.? With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of?the flap
speed.? As I turned final, I did my?gauge and break check and to my surprise,
there was NO pressure.? The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes
were flat.? I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump.? It
worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they?started down first, changing
the airplanes trim.?With touchdown only seconds aw
ay, I?decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes
only" and again waited?for the mains to touch.? I had already pulled both throttles
to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to
the left.? As the?nose touched?I?squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle.? The
airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled
to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare.? It was only then
I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself.? Hence the swerving
on landing.? With the?drag from the windmilling?LH propeller and the RH feathered,
there was significant adverse yaw.? I was able to restart the RH engine
and again, taxied to?parking using the hand pump.? Thought this might be of
value to some of yo! u other Commander drivers.? See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)?
;
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
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Subject: | Hydraulic Failures |
Hi Jimbob,
Believe me, the vision of that spring was in my head after I tried to cycle
the gear again. All I could think was, "stupid, stupid, stupid." I KNEW that
the gear would lock if I just LEFT THE HANDLE ALONE after putting it in the
down position the first time. Of course, I got impatient and jumped at the
lever when I saw a bit of pressure come back into the system. Once I hit the
gear lever the second time, I'd shot my one chance at having the gear go
down via spring/gravity....no chance it'll go back over center, right?
Nothing like a $7,000 repair bill to remind you of the one dumb thing you
did during the event. There's a good chance that if I had just left the
lever where it was, the nosegear would have locked and it would have been an
uneventful landing, even without flaps, brakes or steering. I guarantee I'll
do it differently next time!
/J
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Great story John..
That brings up another great point. The landing gear should extend without
hyd pressure. The main gear uses bungee chords to assist them. These are
easy to check visually and should be replaced every couple years if the
airplane is hangared, every year if it sits outside. The nose gear is
another story. The nose gear is extended by spring located in the RH
inspection door, just ahead of where the rudder pedals live. These need
inspected and lubricated every year, more often if the airplane is parked
out. To inspect them, one must get on your knees. get a strong light and
look forward and up through the aforementioned inspection panel. I have
seen one that had corroded, stuck and was completely broken in half!! These
are often overlooked by mechanics. Also, your mechanic should do an
emergency extension each annual. This is done on jacks, with the gear up
and locked. Then,&nbs p;by bleeding the hyd pressure to zero by running the
flaps up and down. It takes awhile! Next, place the gear handle down. All
the gear should go down and lock with some gusto. If any are "sleepy",
investigate. There are several grease fittings so make certain they are all
properly greased. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:30 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I somehow missed
it :-).
/J
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing
John,
Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of John
Vormbaum
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi all,
I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a
hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker
on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no
hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear
handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system
and thought I could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No
luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and
had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down.
Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's
long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back,
and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal
power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for
directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20
knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet
before the nosegear gently collapsed at about 10 knots. The only damage was
a pair of nosegear doors, a bell crank, and some rivets.
I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it
stops".
Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half
the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up &
give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I
ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced
beautifully.
/John
PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final"
thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any
circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear
unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less
expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway
sideways at 75 knots...
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
HI KIDS
I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd
failures. Over my 30 years and well over 2000 hours of Commander
experience, I have suffered three complete hydraulic failures. All in FAT
nacelled Commanders. It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the
difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes. The FAT
nacelles do not have an electric hyd aux pump. They share the same basic
system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric aux pump, they
use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump.
The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump. There is a standpipe in
the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used
in an emergency. The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from
the standpipe. There is a fitting in the resiviour below the standpipe that
feeds only the aux pump. The trouble with that system is the aux pump is
operated by a pressure switch. So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s)
will eventually pump all the fluid overboard. When the last of the fluid is
gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of
the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer the airplane. The
FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps,
but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be
selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure. Unlike
the electric system, there is no way the emergency fluid can be pumped
overboard without he pilot knowing it.
My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B. I had completed a
normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals
simply went to the floor. I was slow to react but did finally break the
code and switched the floor valve and as the end of the runway approached, I
feverishly pumped the handle. The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel
off the end!! I learned an important lesson that day. ALWAYS check the hyd
gauge AND press on the brakes on short final (more later). A hard line in
the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.
Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,
N222JS. I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the
gear was not extending as usual. A quick glance at the pressure gauge
confirmed a complete hyd failure. I elected to fly across he river to
Troutdale Or (TLD). Grove field is only 2200 feet long for landing. The
gear extended and locked. The flaps were of course up. I told the tower of
my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency. I switched
the valve in the floor and waited to touch down. The landing was normal, if
a little fast, and as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals
and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure. I have found it
nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in
advance to operate the brakes/steering. Better to depress the brakes and
build the ne eded pressure. It worked very well and I was able to taxi to
parking with no trouble. A flex line from the back side of the firewall had
failed.
The last failure was only a couple months ago in a 680 Commander destined
for a A&P school. Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time
preparing N87YA for its last gear down ferry. The airplane had only been
flown once in the last 25 years. The hyd system would only indicate about
700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down
and very locked, I was not overly concerned. The 2.5 hour flight was
completely uneventfully. Those old engines ran great! When I entered the
patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down. With the gear
extended. the airplane never flew out of the flap speed. As I turned final,
I did my gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure.
The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat. I was
committed to the landing and tried the hand pump. It worked, but since the
flaps had been selected, they started down first, changing the airplanes
trim. With touchdown only seconds away, I decided the best salvation was to
abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited for the
mains to touch. I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I
flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left. As the nose
touched I squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle. The airplane used most
of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the
centerline with plenty of room to spare. It was only then I noticed that
the RH engine had quite and feathered itself. Hence the swerving on
landing. With the drag from the windmilling LH propeller and the RH
feathered, there was significant adverse yaw. I was able to restart the RH
engine and again, taxied to parking using the hand pump. Thought this might
be of value to some of yo! ! u other Commander drivers. See ya at the
fly-in (I hope!!)&nb sp; ;
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Failures |
It had a happy ending, so hey, you did good.? How is your new engine??? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:28 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi Jimbob,
?
Believe me, the vision of that spring was in my head after I tried to cycle the
gear again. All I could think was, "stupid, stupid, stupid." I KNEW that the
gear would lock if I just LEFT THE HANDLE ALONE after putting it in the down position
the first time. Of course, I got impatient and jumped at the lever when
I saw a bit of pressure come back into the system. Once I hit the gear lever
the second time, I'd shot my one chance at having the gear go down via spring/gravity....no
chance it'll go back over center, right?
?
Nothing like a $7,000 repair bill to remind you of the one dumb thing you did during
the event. There's a good chance that if I had just left the lever where
it was, the nosegear would have locked and it would have been an uneventful landing,
even without flaps, brakes or steering. I guarantee I'll do it differently
next time!
?
/J
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Great story John..
That brings up another great point.? The landing gear should extend without hyd
pressure.? The main gear uses bungee chords to assist them.? These are easy to
check visually and should be replaced every couple years if the airplane is
hangared, every year if it sits outside.??The nose gear is another story.? The
nose gear is extended by spring located in the RH inspection door, just ahead
of where the rudder pedals live.? These need?inspected and lubricated every year,?more
often?if the airplane is parked out.? To inspect them, one must get
on your knees. get a strong light and look forward and up through the aforementioned
inspection panel.? I have seen one that had corroded, stuck and was completely
broken in half!!? These are often overlooked by mechanics.? Also, your
mechanic should do an emergency extension each annual.? This is done?on jacks,
with the gear up and locked.? Then,&nbs p;by?bleeding the hyd pressure to zero
by running the flaps?up and down.? It takes awhile
!? Next, place the gear handle down.? All the gear should go down and lock with
some gusto.? If any are "sleepy", investigate.? There are several grease fittings
so make certain they are all properly greased.? jb?????
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:30 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I somehow missed it
:-).
?
/J
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing
?
John,
Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart.
Nico
?
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi all,
?
I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard
line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on takeoff
(lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure
at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle down & getting
the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thought I?could
use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my
chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't
locked down.
?
Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long
(10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted
awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That
big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control.
I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled
the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently
collapsed at about?10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell
crank, and some rivets.
?
I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it stops".
?
Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half the
length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me
enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing
a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully.
?
/John
?
PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing?
In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circumstances,
even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked, dumping
it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive & life-threatening
than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 knots...
?
?
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
HI KIDS
?
I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures.?
Over my 30 years and well over?2000 hours of Commander experience,? I have
suffered three complete?hydraulic failures.? All in FAT nacelled Commanders.?
It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems
of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes.? The FAT nacelles do not have an electric?hyd
aux pump.? They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but
instead of an electric?aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe
in the reservoir and a hand pump.? The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric
pump.? There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a
small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency.? The engine driven pumps only
have access to the fluid from the standpipe.? There is a fitting in?the resiviour
below the standpipe that feeds only?the aux pump.? The trouble with that
system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure swi
tch.? So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid
overboard.? When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning
on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used
to stop and steer? the airplane.? The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same
standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that
a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump
is used to build pressure.??Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency?fluid
can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it.
My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B.? I had completed a normal
landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply
went? to the floor.? I was slow to react but did finally break the code and
switched the floor?valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly
pumped the handle.? The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!!?
I learned an important lesson that day.? ALWAYS check the hyd gauge?AND
press on the brakes on short final (more later).? A hard line in the belly of
the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.
Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,?N222JS.?
I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was
not extending as usual.? A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete
hyd failure.? I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD).? Grove
field is only 2200 feet long?for landing.? The gear extended and locked.?
The flaps were of course up.? I told the tower of my predicament but declined
their offer to declare an emergency.? I?switched the valve in the floor and waited?to
touch down.??The landing was normal, if a little fast, and?as the nose
wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated
the braking pressure.? I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world,
to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering.? Better
to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure.? It worked very well
and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble.? A
flex line from the back side of the firewall had?failed.
The?last failure was only a couple?months ago in a 680?Commander destined for a
A&P school.? Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA
for its last?gear down ferry.? The airplane had only been flown?once in the last
25 years.? The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was
on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not
overly concerned.? The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully.? Those old
engines ran great!? When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle
fully down.? With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of?the flap
speed.? As I turned final, I did my?gauge and break check and to my surprise,
there was NO pressure.? The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes
were flat.? I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump.? It
worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they?started down first, changing
the airplanes trim.?With touchdown only seconds aw
ay, I?decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes
only" and again waited?for the mains to touch.? I had already pulled both throttles
to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to
the left.? As the?nose touched?I?squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle.? The
airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled
to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare.? It was only then
I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself.? Hence the swerving
on landing.? With the?drag from the windmilling?LH propeller and the RH feathered,
there was significant adverse yaw.? I was able to restart the RH engine
and again, taxied to?parking using the hand pump.? Thought this might be of
value to some of yo! ! u other Commander drivers.? See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)&nb
sp; ;
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Subject: | Hydraulic Failures |
Haha thanks....the engine looks good. The airplane has been together for a
while but I haven't had time to test fly yet. I'm going to do that this
week. I'm sure it'll be in good shape for the fly-in.
/J
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
It had a happy ending, so hey, you did good. How is your new engine?? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:28 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi Jimbob,
Believe me, the vision of that spring was in my head after I tried to cycle
the gear again. All I could think was, "stupid, stupid, stupid." I KNEW that
the gear would lock if I just LEFT THE HANDLE ALONE after putting it in the
down position the first time. Of course, I got impatient and jumped at the
lever when I saw a bit of pressure come back into the system. Once I hit the
gear lever the second time, I'd shot my one chance at having the gear go
down via spring/gravity....no chance it'll go back over center, right?
Nothing like a $7,000 repair bill to remind you of the one dumb thing you
did during the event. There's a good chance that if I had just left the
lever where it was, the nosegear would have locked and it would have been an
uneventful landing, even without flaps, brakes or steering. I guarantee I'll
do it differently next time!
/J
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Great story John..
That brings up another great point. The landing gear should extend without
hyd pressure. The main gear uses bungee chords to assist them. These are
easy to check visually and should be replaced every couple years if the
airplane is hangared, every year if it sits outside. The nose gear is
another story. The nose gear is extended by spring located in the RH
inspection door, just ahead of where the rudder pedals live. These need
inspected and lubricated every year, more often if the airplane is parked
out. To inspect them, one must get on your knees. get a strong light and
look forward and up through the aforementioned inspection panel. I have
seen one that had corroded, stuck and was completely broken in half!! These
are often overlooked by mechanics. Also, your mechanic should do an
emergency extension each annual. This is done on jacks, with the gear up
and locked. Then,& ;nbs p;by bleeding the hyd pressure to zero by running
the flaps up and down. It takes awhile! Next, place the gear handle down.
All the gear should go down and lock with some gusto. If any are "sleepy",
investigate. There are several grease fittings so make certain they are all
properly greased. jb
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:30 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I somehow missed
it :-).
/J
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing
John,
Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart.
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of John
Vormbaum
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi all,
I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a
hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker
on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no
hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear
handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system
and thought I could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No
luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and
had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down.
Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's
long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back,
and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal
power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for
directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20
knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet
before the nosegear gently collapsed at about 10 knots. The only damage was
a pair of nosegear doors, a bell crank, and some rivets.
I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it
stops".
Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half
the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up &
give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I
ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced
beautifully.
/John
PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final"
thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any
circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear
unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less
expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway
sideways at 75 knots...
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
HI KIDS
I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd
failures. Over my 30 years and well over 2000 hours of Commander
experience, I have suffered three complete hydraulic failures. All in FAT
nacelled Commanders. It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the
difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes. The FAT
nacelles do not have an electric hyd aux pump. They share the same basic
system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric aux pump, they
use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump.
The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump. There is a standpipe in
the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used
in an emergency. The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from
the standpipe. There is a fitting in the resiviour below the standpipe that
feeds only the aux pump. The trouble with that system is the aux pump is
operated by a pressure switch. So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s)
will eventually pump all the fluid overboard. When the last of the fluid is
gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of
the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer the airplane. The
FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps,
but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be
selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure. Unlike
the electric system, there is no way the emergency fluid can be pumped
overboard without he pilot knowing it.
My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B. I had completed a
normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals
simply went to the floor. I was slow to react but did finally break the
code and switched the floor valve and as the end of the runway approached, I
feverishly pumped the handle. The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel
off the end!! I learned an important lesson that day. ALWAYS check the hyd
gauge AND press on the brakes on short final (more later). A hard line in
the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.
Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,
N222JS. I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the
gear was not extending as usual. A quick glance at the pressure gauge
confirmed a complete hyd failure. I elected to fly across he river to
Troutdale Or (TLD). Grove field is only 2200 feet long for landing. The
gear extended and locked. The flaps were of course up. I told the tower of
my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency. I switched
the valve in the floor and waited to touch down. The landing was normal, if
a little fast, and as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals
and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure. I have found it
nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in
advance to operate the brakes/steering. Better to depress the brakes and
build the ne eded pressure. It worked very well and I was able to taxi to
parking with no trouble. A flex line from the back side of the firewall had
failed.
The last failure was only a couple months ago in a 680 Commander destined
for a A&P school. Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time
preparing N87YA for its last gear down ferry. The airplane had only been
flown once in the last 25 years. The hyd system would only indicate about
700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down
and very locked, I was not overly concerned. The 2.5 hour flight was
completely uneventfully. Those old engines ran great! When I entered the
patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down. With the gear
extended. the airplane never flew out of the flap speed. As I turned final,
I did my gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure.
The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat. I was
committed to the landing and tried the hand pump. It worked, but since the
flaps had been selected, they started down first, changing the airplanes
trim. With touchdown only seconds away, I decided the best salvation was to
abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited for the
mains to touch. I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I
flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left. As the nose
touched I squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle. The airplane used most
of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the
centerline with plenty of room to spare. It was only then I noticed that
the RH engine had quite and feathered itself. Hence the swerving on
landing. With the drag from the windmilling LH propeller and the RH
feathered, there was significant adverse yaw. I was able to restart the RH
engine and again, taxied to parking using the hand pump. Thought this might
be of value to some of yo! ! ! u other Commander drivers. See ya at the
fly-in (I hope!!)& amp;nb sp; ;
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