Commander-List Digest Archive

Sun 09/06/09


Total Messages Posted: 12



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:14 AM - Re: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) (8eastbaystreet.com Gilliam)
     2. 08:21 AM - Re: TCFG Directory (craig kennedy)
     3. 02:30 PM - Hydraulic Failures (yourtcfg@aol.com)
     4. 04:39 PM - Re: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) (nico css)
     5. 05:11 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (John Vormbaum)
     6. 06:22 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (nico css)
     7. 06:41 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (John Vormbaum)
     8. 06:53 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (Donnie Rose)
     9. 07:22 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (yourtcfg@aol.com)
    10. 08:43 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (John Vormbaum)
    11. 09:15 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (yourtcfg@aol.com)
    12. 09:59 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (John Vormbaum)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:14:42 AM PST US
    From: "8eastbaystreet.com Gilliam" <amg3636@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
    Nico=2C Thanks much=2C Would pumping the handle hav given you any help=2Cor did you do that? My understanding is the tank has a small amount of fluid that the pump can' t pump out and you have one chance to use it. However in your case it woul d probably have atomized anyway. Roland From: nico@cybersuperstore.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) Hi Roland=2C I took off from a rough strip and as I rotated the cabin was filled with a sweet smelling vapor making the cockpit almost immediately QBI=2C which for tunately cleared up quickly but a vapor continued to pour out from under th e instrument panel. The inside of the plane was covered in an oily substanc e=2C and as the hydraulic pressure dropped the wheels started drooping. I flew back=2C feathered the engines on short final=2C landed and sat like a passenger as the plane castored off the runway and came to a stop in the rough. It was the pressure gauge's tube that cracked and atomized the hydra ulic fluid into the cabin. I cannot remember whether grommets or supports w ere not installed that caused the pressure line to vibrate excessively and break but it may be worth your trouble to check that it is properly support ed. Hope this helps. Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 8eastbaystreet.com Gilliam Sent: Saturday=2C September 05=2C 2009 6:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) Nico=2C Can you elaborate on your incident with your 500? I have a 500 and would be interested to know the problem. Thanks in advance=2C Roland Gilliam > From: tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) > Date: Sat=2C 5 Sep 2009 17:54:16 -0700 > p.bc.ca> > > Thanks Nico=2C I will be unable to attend Carson city especially now! > Tom. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Friday=2C September 04=2C 2009 10:25 PM > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) > > > > <nico@cybersuperstore.com> > > > > Hi Tom. > > > > Sorry about the loss. This is the second one you lost=2C right? The fir st > > was > > a lot more traumatic if I remember correctly. > > However=2C I had a similar situation in my 500=2C but=2C fortunately=2C there were > > very wide "side burns" on the runway and I managed to roll to a stop in > > the > > rough without any other damage than the broken hydraulic lines. > > > > Hope to see you in Carson City. > > > > Nico > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fis her > > Sent: Friday=2C September 04=2C 2009 5:30 PM > > To: commander-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) > > > > --> <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca> > > > > Thanks Buddy=2C I am old friends with the 680FLP but I should keep my m ind > > open to different models=2C I would like too peruse the data. > > > > Tom. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <budplaster@aol.com> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com> > > Sent: Friday=2C September 04=2C 2009 4:30 PM > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) > > > > > >> > >> I AM PREPARING TO SELL MY 685 WHICH MAY BE THE ONE WITH THE LOWEST > >> TIMES-----TT 2100 HRS=2C ENGINES 125 HRS. AND LOWEST PRICE...$200=2C00 0. > >> FIRM. > > > >> IF INTERESTED=2C I WILL SEND YOU A COMPLETE SPECIFICATION SHEET AND > >> PHOTOGRAPHS. > >> > >> BUDDY PLASTER > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca> > >> To: commander-list@matronics.com > >> Sent: Fri=2C Sep 4=2C 2009 1:33 pm > >> Subject: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) > >> > >> > >> > >> There is a change all right. > >> > >> > >> > >> C-GISS (680FLP (Mr.RPM)) is no more=2C total hydraulic failure in the > >> starboard brake line=2C landed by the numbers without flaps=2C brakes or > >> steering=2C ended up careening across a ditch which bent the main spar and > >> tore off the right main landing gear and skidded to a stop on the righ t > >> side of the belly. > >> > >> My insurance company will be offering it up for sale "where is=2C as i s". > >> > >> > >> > >> Does anyone know of a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) available for sale? > >> > >> > >> > >> Tom Fisher > >> > >> formally C-GISS > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> From: yourtcfg@aol.com > >> > >> To: commander-list@matronics.com > >> > >> Sent: Friday=2C September 04=2C 2009 9:47 AM > >> > >> Subject: Commander-List: TCFG Directory > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi TCFG members=2C > >> > >> > >> > >> We're working on this year's Membership and Vendor Directory and would > >> appreciate it if you would let us know of any changes to your personal > >> information or additions/changes to the Vendor listing. > >> > >> 0D > >> > >> Looking forward to the Fly-In. What a special treat to have Hoover att end > >> our awards Banquet. See ya in a couple of weeks. > >> > >> > >> ~jb > >> > >> > >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www. matro > >> nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.co m/c > >> > >> > >> > >> -Matt Dralle=2C List Admin. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _================= > > > Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you=92re up to on Facebook. Find out more. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you=92re up to on Facebook. http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL :ON:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009


    Message 2


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    Time: 08:21:41 AM PST US
    From: craig kennedy <white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: TCFG Directory
    JB, Current details: Craig Kennedy 3905 State St, 7-266 Santa Barbara, CA 93105 805 231-3236 N747H ________________________________ From: "yourtcfg@aol.com" <yourtcfg@aol.com> Sent: Friday, September 4, 2009 9:47:53 AM Subject: Commander-List: TCFG Directory Hi TCFG members, We're working on this year's Membership and Vendor Directory and would appreciate it if you would let us know of any changes to your personal information or additions/changes to the Vendor listing. Looking forward to the Fly-In. What a special treat to have Hoover attend our awards Banquet. See ya in a couple of weeks. ~jb


    Message 3


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    Time: 02:30:01 PM PST US
    Subject: Hydraulic Failures
    From: yourtcfg@aol.com
    HI KIDS ? I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures.? Over my 30 years and well over?2000 hours of Commander experience,? I have suffered three complete?hydraulic failures.? All in FAT nacelled Commanders.? It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes.? The FAT nacelles do not have an electric?hyd aux pump.? They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric?aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump.? The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump.? There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency.? The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from the standpipe.? There is a fitting in?the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only?the aux pump.? The trouble with that system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure swi tch.? So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid overboard.? When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer? the airplane.? The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure.??Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency?fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it. My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B.? I had completed a normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply went? to the floor.? I was slow to react but did finally break the code and switched the floor?valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly pumped the handle.? The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!!? I learned an important lesson that day.? ALWAYS check the hyd gauge?AND press on the brakes on short final (more later).? A hard line in the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard. Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,?N222JS.? I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was not extending as usual.? A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure.? I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD).? Grove field is only 2200 feet long?for landing.? The gear extended and locked.? The flaps were of course up.? I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency.? I?switched the valve in the floor and waited?to touch down.??The landing was normal, if a little fast, and?as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure.? I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering.? Better to depress the brakes and build the needed pressure.? It worked very well and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble.? A flex line from the back side of the firewall had?failed. The?last failure was only a couple?months ago in a 680?Commander destined for a A&P school.? Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA for its last?gear down ferry.? The airplane had only been flown?once in the last 25 years.? The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not overly concerned.? The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully.? Those old engines ran great!? When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down.? With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of?the flap speed.? As I turned final, I did my?gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure.? The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat.? I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump.? It worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they?started down first, changing the airplanes trim.?With touchdown only seconds aw ay, I?decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited?for the mains to touch.? I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left.? As the?nose touched?I?squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle.? The airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare.? It was only then I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself.? Hence the swerving on landing.? With the?drag from the windmilling?LH propeller and the RH feathered, there was significant adverse yaw.? I was able to restart the RH engine and again, taxied to?parking using the hand pump.? Thought this might be of value to some of you other Commander drivers.? See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)?


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:39:51 PM PST US
    From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
    Subject: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
    Roland, I cannot remember exactly but my recollection is that I used the pump to make sure that the gear is down and locked. It didn't feel as if it did anything and I slowed down to about 80 kts when the gear dropped into place. Why I feathered the props was perhaps the most questionable action I took but I feared a gear collapse regardless of three greens, which was perhaps not that smart. I had a 6,500' runway with a slight uphill and having kept the engines going I could have used asymmetric power to keep the plane on the runway. I didn't want to run off the end of the runway which was a concern I remember. Anyway, it turned out OK. Food for a lot of reflection, though. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 8eastbaystreet.com Gilliam Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:59 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) Nico, Thanks much, Would pumping the handle hav given you any help,or did you do that? My understanding is the tank has a small amount of fluid that the pump can't pump out and you have one chance to use it. However in your case it would probably have atomized anyway. Roland _____ From: nico@cybersuperstore.com Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) Hi Roland, I took off from a rough strip and as I rotated the cabin was filled with a sweet smelling vapor making the cockpit almost immediately QBI, which fortunately cleared up quickly but a vapor continued to pour out from under the instrument panel. The inside of the plane was covered in an oily substance, and as the hydraulic pressure dropped the wheels started drooping. I flew back, feathered the engines on short final, landed and sat like a passenger as the plane castored off the runway and came to a stop in the rough. It was the pressure gauge's tube that cracked and atomized the hydraulic fluid into the cabin. I cannot remember whether grommets or supports were not installed that caused the pressure line to vibrate excessively and break but it may be worth your trouble to check that it is properly supported. Hope this helps. Thanks Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of 8eastbaystreet.com Gilliam Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 6:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) Nico, Can you elaborate on your incident with your 500? I have a 500 and would be interested to know the problem. Thanks in advance, Roland Gilliam > From: tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) > Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:54:16 -0700 > <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca> > > Thanks Nico, I will be unable to attend Carson city especially now! > Tom. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com> > To: <commander-list@matronics.com> > Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 10:25 PM > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) > > > > <nico@cybersuperstore.com> > > > > Hi Tom. > > > > Sorry about the loss. This is the second one you lost, right? The first > > was > > a lot more traumatic if I remember correctly. > > However, I had a similar situation in my 500, but, fortunately, there were > > very wide "side burns" on the runway and I managed to roll to a stop in > > the > > rough without any other damage than the broken hydraulic lines. > > > > Hope to see you in Carson City. > > > > Nico > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher > > Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 5:30 PM > > To: commander-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) > > > > --> <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca> > > > > Thanks Buddy, I am old friends with the 680FLP but I should keep my mind > > open to different models, I would like too peruse the data. > > > > Tom. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <budplaster@aol.com> > > To: <commander-list@matronics.com> > > Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 4:30 PM > > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) > > > > > >> > >> I AM PREPARING TO SELL MY 685 WHICH MAY BE THE ONE WITH THE LOWEST > >> TIMES-----TT 2100 HRS, ENGINES 125 HRS. AND LOWEST PRICE...$200,000. > >> FIRM. > > > >> IF INTERESTED, I WILL SEND YOU A COMPLETE SPECIFICATION SHEET AND > >> PHOTOGRAPHS. > >> > >> BUDDY PLASTER > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca> > >> To: commander-list@matronics.com > >> Sent: Fri, Sep 4, 2009 1:33 pm > >> Subject: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) > >> > >> > >> > >> There is a change all right. > >> > >> > >> > >> C-GISS (680FLP (Mr.RPM)) is no more, total hydraulic failure in the > >> starboard brake line, landed by the numbers without flaps, brakes or > >> steering, ended up careening across a ditch which bent the main spar and > >> tore off the right main landing gear and skidded to a stop on the right > >> side of the belly. > >> > >> My insurance company will be offering it up for sale "where is, as is". > >> > >> > >> > >> Does anyone know of a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) available for sale? > >> > >> > >> > >> Tom Fisher > >> > >> formally C-GISS > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> > >> From: yourtcfg@aol.com > >> > >> To: commander-list@matronics.com > >> > >> Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 9:47 AM > >> > >> Subject: Commander-List: TCFG Directory > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi TCFG members, > >> > >> > >> > >> We're working on this year's Membership and Vendor Directory and would > >> appreciate it if you would let us know of any changes to your personal > >> information or additions/changes to the Vendor listing. > >> > >> 0D > >> > >> Looking forward to the Fly-In. What a special treat to have Hoover attend > >> our awards Banquet. See ya in a couple of weeks. > >> > >> > >> ~jb > >> > >> > >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro > >> nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > >> > >> > >> > >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _================= > > > _____ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you're up to on Facebook. Find <http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:O N:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009> out more. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ronics.com ww.matronics.com/contribution _____ Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you're up to on Facebook. Find out more. <http://windowslive.com/Campaign/SocialNetworking?ocid=PID23285::T:WLMTAGL:O N:WL:en-US:SI_SB_facebook:082009>


    Message 5


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    Time: 05:11:27 PM PST US
    From: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
    Subject: Hydraulic Failures
    Hi all, I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thought I could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down. Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently collapsed at about 10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell crank, and some rivets. I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it stops". Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully. /John PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 knots... _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures HI KIDS I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures. Over my 30 years and well over 2000 hours of Commander experience, I have suffered three complete hydraulic failures. All in FAT nacelled Commanders. It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes. The FAT nacelles do not have an electric hyd aux pump. They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump. The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump. There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency. The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from the standpipe. There is a fitting in the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only the aux pump. The trouble with that system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure switch. So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid overboard. When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer the airplane. The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure. Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it. My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B. I had completed a normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply went to the floor. I was slow to react but did finally break the code and switched the floor valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly pumped the handle. The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!! I learned an important lesson that day. ALWAYS check the hyd gauge AND press on the brakes on short final (more later). A hard line in the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard. Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E, N222JS. I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was not extending as usual. A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure. I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD). Grove field is only 2200 feet long for landing. The gear extended and locked. The flaps were of course up. I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency. I switched the valve in the floor and waited to touch down. The landing was normal, if a little fast, and as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure. I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering. Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure. It worked very well and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble. A flex line from the back side of the firewall had failed. The last failure was only a couple months ago in a 680 Commander destined for a A&P school. Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA for its last gear down ferry. The airplane had only been flown once in the last 25 years. The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not overly concerned. The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully. Those old engines ran great! When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down. With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of the flap speed. As I turned final, I did my gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure. The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat. I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump. It worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they started down first, changing the airplanes trim. With touchdown only seconds away, I decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited for the mains to touch. I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left. As the nose touched I squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle. The airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare. It was only then I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself. Hence the swerving on landing. With the drag from the windmilling LH propeller and the RH feathered, there was significant adverse yaw. I was able to restart the RH engine and again, taxied to parking using the hand pump. Thought this might be of value to some of yo! u other Commander drivers. See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!) ;


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:22:33 PM PST US
    From: "nico css" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
    Subject: Hydraulic Failures
    what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing John, Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Hi all, I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thought I could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down. Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently collapsed at about 10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell crank, and some rivets. I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it stops". Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully. /John PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 knots... _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures HI KIDS I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures. Over my 30 years and well over 2000 hours of Commander experience, I have suffered three complete hydraulic failures. All in FAT nacelled Commanders. It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes. The FAT nacelles do not have an electric hyd aux pump. They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump. The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump. There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency. The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from the standpipe. There is a fitting in the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only the aux pump. The trouble with that system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure switch. So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid overboard. When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer the airplane. The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure. Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it. My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B. I had completed a normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply went to the floor. I was slow to react but did finally break the code and switched the floor valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly pumped the handle. The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!! I learned an important lesson that day. ALWAYS check the hyd gauge AND press on the brakes on short final (more later). A hard line in the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard. Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E, N222JS. I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was not extending as usual. A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure. I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD). Grove field is only 2200 feet long for landing. The gear extended and locked. The flaps were of course up. I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency. I switched the valve in the floor and waited to touch down. The landing was normal, if a little fast, and as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure. I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering. Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure. It worked very well and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble. A flex line from the back side of the firewall had failed. The last failure was only a couple months ago in a 680 Commander destined for a A&P school. Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA for its last gear down ferry. The airplane had only been flown once in the last 25 years. The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not overly concerned. The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully. Those old engines ran great! When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down. With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of the flap speed. As I turned final, I did my gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure. The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat. I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump. It worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they started down first, changing the airplanes trim. With touchdown only seconds away, I decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited for the mains to touch. I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left. As the nose touched I squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle. The airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare. It was only then I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself. Hence the swerving on landing. With the drag from the windmilling LH propeller and the RH feathered, there was significant adverse yaw. I was able to restart the RH engine and again, taxied to parking using the hand pump. Thought this might be of value to some of yo! u other Commander drivers. See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!) ; href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:41:59 PM PST US
    From: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
    Subject: Hydraulic Failures
    Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I somehow missed it :-). /J _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing John, Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Hi all, I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thought I could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down. Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently collapsed at about 10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell crank, and some rivets. I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it stops". Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully. /John PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 knots... _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures HI KIDS I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures. Over my 30 years and well over 2000 hours of Commander experience, I have suffered three complete hydraulic failures. All in FAT nacelled Commanders. It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes. The FAT nacelles do not have an electric hyd aux pump. They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump. The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump. There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency. The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from the standpipe. There is a fitting in the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only the aux pump. The trouble with that system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure switch. So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid overboard. When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer the airplane. The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure. Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it. My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B. I had completed a normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply went to the floor. I was slow to react but did finally break the code and switched the floor valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly pumped the handle. The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!! I learned an important lesson that day. ALWAYS check the hyd gauge AND press on the brakes on short final (more later). A hard line in the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard. Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E, N222JS. I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was not extending as usual. A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure. I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD). Grove field is only 2200 feet long for landing. The gear extended and locked. The flaps were of course up. I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency. I switched the valve in the floor and waited to touch down. The landing was normal, if a little fast, and as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure. I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering. Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure. It worked very well and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble. A flex line from the back side of the firewall had failed. The last failure was only a couple months ago in a 680 Commander destined for a A&P school. Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA for its last gear down ferry. The airplane had only been flown once in the last 25 years. The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not overly concerned. The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully. Those old engines ran great! When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down. With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of the flap speed. As I turned final, I did my gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure. The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat. I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump. It worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they started down first, changing the airplanes trim. With touchdown only seconds away, I decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited for the mains to touch. I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left. As the nose touched I squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle. The airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare. It was only then I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself. Hence the swerving on landing. With the drag from the windmilling LH propeller and the RH feathered, there was significant adverse yaw. I was able to restart the RH engine and again, taxied to parking using the hand pump. Thought this might be of value to some of yo! u other Commander drivers. See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!) ; href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:53:11 PM PST US
    From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Hydraulic Failures
    Agreed John=0A-=0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________ ______________________=0AFrom: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>=0ATo: comm ander-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, September 6, 2009 7:09:40 PM=0ASub ject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures=0A=0A=0AHi all,=0A-=0AI also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on ta keoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraul ic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle do wn & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thoug ht I-could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down.=0A-=0ASince I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted awhile down the ru nway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That big Commander ta il/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently collapsed a t about-10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell cr ank, and some rivets.=0A-=0AI guess it's true what they say, "fly the air plane all the way until it stops".=0A-=0AIncidentally, I probably could h ave done the same landing in less than half the length. I actually had to r oll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me enough speed to roll thr ough the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully.=0A-=0A/John=0A-=0APS: Nic o, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circ umstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked , dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 kno ts...=0A-=0A-=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: owner-co mmander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matro nics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com=0ASent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM=0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Commander-List: Hydra ulic Failures=0A=0A=0AHI KIDS=0A=0AI thought I might share with you some re al world experience regarding hyd failures.- Over my 30 years and well ov er-2000 hours of Commander experience,- I have suffered three complete -hydraulicfailures.- All in FAT nacelled Commanders.- It would be goo d to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems of FLAT and FA T nacelled airplanes.- The FAT nacelles do not have an electric-hyd aux pump.- They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but ins tead of an electric-aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pi pe in the reservoir and a hand pump.- The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump.- There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended t o isolate a small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency.- The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from the standpipe.- There is a fitting in-the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only-the aux pump.- The trouble with that system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure switch.- So, if a leak occurs, the en gine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid overboard.- When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dump ing the last of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer- the airplane.- The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for th e engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in th e floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used t o build pressure.--Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emer gency-fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it.=0AMy fir st failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B.- I had completed a no rmal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply went- to the floor.- I was slow to react but did finally break t he code and switched the floor-valve and as the end of the runway approac hed, I feverishly pumped the handle.- The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!!- I learned an important lesson that day.- ALWA YS check the hyd gauge-AND press on the brakes on short final (more later ).- A hard line in the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.=0AFailure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,-N222JS.- I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1 ) when I noticed the gear was not extending as usual.- A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure.- I elected to fly ac ross he river to Troutdale Or (TLD).- Grove field is only 2200 feet long -for landing.- The gear extended and locked.- The flaps were of cours e up.- I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer to dec lare an emergency.- I-switched the valve in the floor and waited-to t ouch down.--The landing was normal, if a little fast, and-as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regul ated the braking pressure.- I have found it nearly impossible, in the rea l world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/stee ring.- Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure.- It worked very well and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble.- A flex line from the back side of the firewall had-failed.=0AThe-last failure was only a couple-mon ths ago in a 680-Commander destined for a A&P school.- Morris Kernick a nd I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA for its last-gear down f erry.- The airplane had only been flown-once in the last 25 years.- T he hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not overly co ncerned.- The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully.- Those old e ngines ran great!- When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap h andle fully down.- With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of -the flap speed.- As I turned final, I did my-gauge and break check a nd to my surprise, there was NO pressure.- The flaps I had called for nev er extended and the brakes were flat.- I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump.- It worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they-started down first, changing the airplanes trim.-With touchdown only seconds away, I-decided the best s alvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again wa ited-for the mains to touch.- I had already pulled both throttles to fu ll idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left. - As the-nose touched-I-squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle. - The airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare.- It was only then I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself. - Hence the swerving on landing.- With the-drag from the windmilling -LH propeller and the RH feathered, there was significant adverse yaw.- I was able to restart the RH engine and again, taxied to-parking using t he hand pump.- Thought this might be of value to some of yo! u other Comm ander drivers.- See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)- ;=0A=0A=0Ahref="http ://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Nav igator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.mat ronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matr =========================0A =0A=0A=0A


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:22:16 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Hydraulic Failures
    From: yourtcfg@aol.com
    Great story John.. That brings up another great point.? The landing gear should extend without hyd pressure.? The main gear uses bungee chords to assist them.? These are easy to check visually and should be replaced every couple years if the airplane is hangared, every year if it sits outside.??The nose gear is another story.? The nose gear is extended by spring located in the RH inspection door, just ahead of where the rudder pedals live.? These need?inspected and lubricated every year,?more often?if the airplane is parked out.? To inspect them, one must get on your knees. get a strong light and look forward and up through the aforementioned inspection panel.? I have seen one that had corroded, stuck and was completely broken in half!!? These are often overlooked by mechanics.? Also, your mechanic should do an emergency extension each annual.? This is done?on jacks, with the gear up and locked.? Then,?by?bleeding the hyd pressure to zero by running the flaps?up and down.? It takes awhile!? Nex t, place the gear handle down.? All the gear should go down and lock with some gusto.? If any are "sleepy", investigate.? There are several grease fittings so make certain they are all properly greased.? jb????? -----Original Message----- From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:30 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I somehow missed it :-). ? /J From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing ? John, Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart. Nico ? From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Hi all, ? I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thought I?could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down. ? Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently collapsed at about?10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell crank, and some rivets. ? I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it stops". ? Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully. ? /John ? PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 knots... ? ? From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures HI KIDS ? I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures.? Over my 30 years and well over?2000 hours of Commander experience,? I have suffered three complete?hydraulic failures.? All in FAT nacelled Commanders.? It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes.? The FAT nacelles do not have an electric?hyd aux pump.? They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric?aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump.? The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump.? There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency.? The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from the standpipe.? There is a fitting in?the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only?the aux pump.? The trouble with that system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure swi tch.? So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid overboard.? When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer? the airplane.? The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure.??Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency?fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it. My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B.? I had completed a normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply went? to the floor.? I was slow to react but did finally break the code and switched the floor?valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly pumped the handle.? The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!!? I learned an important lesson that day.? ALWAYS check the hyd gauge?AND press on the brakes on short final (more later).? A hard line in the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard. Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,?N222JS.? I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was not extending as usual.? A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure.? I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD).? Grove field is only 2200 feet long?for landing.? The gear extended and locked.? The flaps were of course up.? I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency.? I?switched the valve in the floor and waited?to touch down.??The landing was normal, if a little fast, and?as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure.? I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering.? Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure.? It worked very well and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble.? A flex line from the back side of the firewall had?failed. The?last failure was only a couple?months ago in a 680?Commander destined for a A&P school.? Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA for its last?gear down ferry.? The airplane had only been flown?once in the last 25 years.? The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not overly concerned.? The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully.? Those old engines ran great!? When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down.? With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of?the flap speed.? As I turned final, I did my?gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure.? The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat.? I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump.? It worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they?started down first, changing the airplanes trim.?With touchdown only seconds aw ay, I?decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited?for the mains to touch.? I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left.? As the?nose touched?I?squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle.? The airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare.? It was only then I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself.? Hence the swerving on landing.? With the?drag from the windmilling?LH propeller and the RH feathered, there was significant adverse yaw.? I was able to restart the RH engine and again, taxied to?parking using the hand pump.? Thought this might be of value to some of yo! u other Commander drivers.? See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)? ; href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 10


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    Time: 08:43:43 PM PST US
    From: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
    Subject: Hydraulic Failures
    Hi Jimbob, Believe me, the vision of that spring was in my head after I tried to cycle the gear again. All I could think was, "stupid, stupid, stupid." I KNEW that the gear would lock if I just LEFT THE HANDLE ALONE after putting it in the down position the first time. Of course, I got impatient and jumped at the lever when I saw a bit of pressure come back into the system. Once I hit the gear lever the second time, I'd shot my one chance at having the gear go down via spring/gravity....no chance it'll go back over center, right? Nothing like a $7,000 repair bill to remind you of the one dumb thing you did during the event. There's a good chance that if I had just left the lever where it was, the nosegear would have locked and it would have been an uneventful landing, even without flaps, brakes or steering. I guarantee I'll do it differently next time! /J _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 7:16 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Great story John.. That brings up another great point. The landing gear should extend without hyd pressure. The main gear uses bungee chords to assist them. These are easy to check visually and should be replaced every couple years if the airplane is hangared, every year if it sits outside. The nose gear is another story. The nose gear is extended by spring located in the RH inspection door, just ahead of where the rudder pedals live. These need inspected and lubricated every year, more often if the airplane is parked out. To inspect them, one must get on your knees. get a strong light and look forward and up through the aforementioned inspection panel. I have seen one that had corroded, stuck and was completely broken in half!! These are often overlooked by mechanics. Also, your mechanic should do an emergency extension each annual. This is done on jacks, with the gear up and locked. Then,&nbs p;by bleeding the hyd pressure to zero by running the flaps up and down. It takes awhile! Next, place the gear handle down. All the gear should go down and lock with some gusto. If any are "sleepy", investigate. There are several grease fittings so make certain they are all properly greased. jb -----Original Message----- From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:30 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I somehow missed it :-). /J _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing John, Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Hi all, I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thought I could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down. Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently collapsed at about 10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell crank, and some rivets. I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it stops". Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully. /John PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 knots... _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures HI KIDS I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures. Over my 30 years and well over 2000 hours of Commander experience, I have suffered three complete hydraulic failures. All in FAT nacelled Commanders. It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes. The FAT nacelles do not have an electric hyd aux pump. They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump. The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump. There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency. The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from the standpipe. There is a fitting in the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only the aux pump. The trouble with that system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure switch. So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid overboard. When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer the airplane. The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure. Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it. My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B. I had completed a normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply went to the floor. I was slow to react but did finally break the code and switched the floor valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly pumped the handle. The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!! I learned an important lesson that day. ALWAYS check the hyd gauge AND press on the brakes on short final (more later). A hard line in the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard. Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E, N222JS. I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was not extending as usual. A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure. I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD). Grove field is only 2200 feet long for landing. The gear extended and locked. The flaps were of course up. I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency. I switched the valve in the floor and waited to touch down. The landing was normal, if a little fast, and as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure. I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering. Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure. It worked very well and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble. A flex line from the back side of the firewall had failed. The last failure was only a couple months ago in a 680 Commander destined for a A&P school. Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA for its last gear down ferry. The airplane had only been flown once in the last 25 years. The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not overly concerned. The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully. Those old engines ran great! When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down. With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of the flap speed. As I turned final, I did my gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure. The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat. I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump. It worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they started down first, changing the airplanes trim. With touchdown only seconds away, I decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited for the mains to touch. I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left. As the nose touched I squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle. The airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare. It was only then I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself. Hence the swerving on landing. With the drag from the windmilling LH propeller and the RH feathered, there was significant adverse yaw. I was able to restart the RH engine and again, taxied to parking using the hand pump. Thought this might be of value to some of yo! ! u other Commander drivers. See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)&nb sp; ; href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> ">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> ">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> ">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:15:39 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Hydraulic Failures
    From: yourtcfg@aol.com
    It had a happy ending, so hey, you did good.? How is your new engine??? jb -----Original Message----- From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:28 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Hi Jimbob, ? Believe me, the vision of that spring was in my head after I tried to cycle the gear again. All I could think was, "stupid, stupid, stupid." I KNEW that the gear would lock if I just LEFT THE HANDLE ALONE after putting it in the down position the first time. Of course, I got impatient and jumped at the lever when I saw a bit of pressure come back into the system. Once I hit the gear lever the second time, I'd shot my one chance at having the gear go down via spring/gravity....no chance it'll go back over center, right? ? Nothing like a $7,000 repair bill to remind you of the one dumb thing you did during the event. There's a good chance that if I had just left the lever where it was, the nosegear would have locked and it would have been an uneventful landing, even without flaps, brakes or steering. I guarantee I'll do it differently next time! ? /J From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 7:16 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Great story John.. That brings up another great point.? The landing gear should extend without hyd pressure.? The main gear uses bungee chords to assist them.? These are easy to check visually and should be replaced every couple years if the airplane is hangared, every year if it sits outside.??The nose gear is another story.? The nose gear is extended by spring located in the RH inspection door, just ahead of where the rudder pedals live.? These need?inspected and lubricated every year,?more often?if the airplane is parked out.? To inspect them, one must get on your knees. get a strong light and look forward and up through the aforementioned inspection panel.? I have seen one that had corroded, stuck and was completely broken in half!!? These are often overlooked by mechanics.? Also, your mechanic should do an emergency extension each annual.? This is done?on jacks, with the gear up and locked.? Then,&nbs p;by?bleeding the hyd pressure to zero by running the flaps?up and down.? It takes awhile !? Next, place the gear handle down.? All the gear should go down and lock with some gusto.? If any are "sleepy", investigate.? There are several grease fittings so make certain they are all properly greased.? jb????? -----Original Message----- From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:30 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I somehow missed it :-). ? /J From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing ? John, Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart. Nico ? From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Hi all, ? I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thought I?could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down. ? Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently collapsed at about?10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell crank, and some rivets. ? I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it stops". ? Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully. ? /John ? PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 knots... ? ? From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures HI KIDS ? I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures.? Over my 30 years and well over?2000 hours of Commander experience,? I have suffered three complete?hydraulic failures.? All in FAT nacelled Commanders.? It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes.? The FAT nacelles do not have an electric?hyd aux pump.? They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric?aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump.? The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump.? There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency.? The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from the standpipe.? There is a fitting in?the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only?the aux pump.? The trouble with that system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure swi tch.? So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid overboard.? When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer? the airplane.? The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure.??Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency?fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it. My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B.? I had completed a normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply went? to the floor.? I was slow to react but did finally break the code and switched the floor?valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly pumped the handle.? The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!!? I learned an important lesson that day.? ALWAYS check the hyd gauge?AND press on the brakes on short final (more later).? A hard line in the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard. Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,?N222JS.? I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was not extending as usual.? A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure.? I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD).? Grove field is only 2200 feet long?for landing.? The gear extended and locked.? The flaps were of course up.? I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency.? I?switched the valve in the floor and waited?to touch down.??The landing was normal, if a little fast, and?as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure.? I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering.? Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure.? It worked very well and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble.? A flex line from the back side of the firewall had?failed. The?last failure was only a couple?months ago in a 680?Commander destined for a A&P school.? Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA for its last?gear down ferry.? The airplane had only been flown?once in the last 25 years.? The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not overly concerned.? The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully.? Those old engines ran great!? When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down.? With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of?the flap speed.? As I turned final, I did my?gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure.? The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat.? I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump.? It worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they?started down first, changing the airplanes trim.?With touchdown only seconds aw ay, I?decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited?for the mains to touch.? I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left.? As the?nose touched?I?squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle.? The airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare.? It was only then I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself.? Hence the swerving on landing.? With the?drag from the windmilling?LH propeller and the RH feathered, there was significant adverse yaw.? I was able to restart the RH engine and again, taxied to?parking using the hand pump.? Thought this might be of value to some of yo! ! u other Commander drivers.? See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)&nb sp; ; href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c


    Message 12


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    Time: 09:59:39 PM PST US
    From: "John Vormbaum" <john@vormbaum.com>
    Subject: Hydraulic Failures
    Haha thanks....the engine looks good. The airplane has been together for a while but I haven't had time to test fly yet. I'm going to do that this week. I'm sure it'll be in good shape for the fly-in. /J _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 9:08 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures It had a happy ending, so hey, you did good. How is your new engine?? jb -----Original Message----- From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 8:28 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Hi Jimbob, Believe me, the vision of that spring was in my head after I tried to cycle the gear again. All I could think was, "stupid, stupid, stupid." I KNEW that the gear would lock if I just LEFT THE HANDLE ALONE after putting it in the down position the first time. Of course, I got impatient and jumped at the lever when I saw a bit of pressure come back into the system. Once I hit the gear lever the second time, I'd shot my one chance at having the gear go down via spring/gravity....no chance it'll go back over center, right? Nothing like a $7,000 repair bill to remind you of the one dumb thing you did during the event. There's a good chance that if I had just left the lever where it was, the nosegear would have locked and it would have been an uneventful landing, even without flaps, brakes or steering. I guarantee I'll do it differently next time! /J _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 7:16 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Great story John.. That brings up another great point. The landing gear should extend without hyd pressure. The main gear uses bungee chords to assist them. These are easy to check visually and should be replaced every couple years if the airplane is hangared, every year if it sits outside. The nose gear is another story. The nose gear is extended by spring located in the RH inspection door, just ahead of where the rudder pedals live. These need inspected and lubricated every year, more often if the airplane is parked out. To inspect them, one must get on your knees. get a strong light and look forward and up through the aforementioned inspection panel. I have seen one that had corroded, stuck and was completely broken in half!! These are often overlooked by mechanics. Also, your mechanic should do an emergency extension each annual. This is done on jacks, with the gear up and locked. Then,& ;nbs p;by bleeding the hyd pressure to zero by running the flaps up and down. It takes awhile! Next, place the gear handle down. All the gear should go down and lock with some gusto. If any are "sleepy", investigate. There are several grease fittings so make certain they are all properly greased. jb -----Original Message----- From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com> Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:30 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I somehow missed it :-). /J _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of nico css Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing John, Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart. Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures Hi all, I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thought I could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down. Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently collapsed at about 10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell crank, and some rivets. I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it stops". Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully. /John PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 knots... _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures HI KIDS I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures. Over my 30 years and well over 2000 hours of Commander experience, I have suffered three complete hydraulic failures. All in FAT nacelled Commanders. It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes. The FAT nacelles do not have an electric hyd aux pump. They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump. The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump. There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency. The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from the standpipe. There is a fitting in the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only the aux pump. The trouble with that system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure switch. So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid overboard. When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer the airplane. The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build pressure. Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it. My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B. I had completed a normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply went to the floor. I was slow to react but did finally break the code and switched the floor valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly pumped the handle. The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!! I learned an important lesson that day. ALWAYS check the hyd gauge AND press on the brakes on short final (more later). A hard line in the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard. Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E, N222JS. I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was not extending as usual. A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure. I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD). Grove field is only 2200 feet long for landing. The gear extended and locked. The flaps were of course up. I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer to declare an emergency. I switched the valve in the floor and waited to touch down. The landing was normal, if a little fast, and as the nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated the braking pressure. I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering. Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure. It worked very well and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble. A flex line from the back side of the firewall had failed. The last failure was only a couple months ago in a 680 Commander destined for a A&P school. Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA for its last gear down ferry. The airplane had only been flown once in the last 25 years. The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not overly concerned. The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully. Those old engines ran great! When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down. With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of the flap speed. As I turned final, I did my gauge and break check and to my surprise, there was NO pressure. The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes were flat. I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump. It worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they started down first, changing the airplanes trim. With touchdown only seconds away, I decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again waited for the mains to touch. I had already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left. As the nose touched I squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle. The airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare. It was only then I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself. Hence the swerving on landing. With the drag from the windmilling LH propeller and the RH feathered, there was significant adverse yaw. I was able to restart the RH engine and again, taxied to parking using the hand pump. Thought this might be of value to some of yo! ! ! u other Commander drivers. See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)& amp;nb sp; ; href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> ">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> ">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> ">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> ">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c




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