Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:39 AM - Re: low suction mystery (Scottmain2003@aol.com)
2. 07:51 AM - Re: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) (MASON CHEVAILLIER)
3. 09:52 AM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (Donnie Rose)
4. 10:26 AM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (yourtcfg@aol.com)
5. 11:22 AM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (Donnie Rose)
6. 02:37 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (lloyd silverman)
7. 02:54 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (Tom Fisher)
8. 07:25 PM - Re: Hydraulic Failures (yourtcfg@aol.com)
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| Subject: | Re: low suction mystery |
I had similar experience with my L-26. I isolated each segment of the
plumbing and tested one by one and eventually found the culprit. the hard line
from the inside upper left of the right engine nacelle that goes through
the bulkhead and connects to another hard line just to the right of the oil
cover had chaffed through and had a fairly large hole allowing ambient air
to enter there. I had to take the inspection covers off that area on the
wing upper panel to repair the hole and then all worked fine. a vacuum cleaner
connected to the hose at the pump made enough of a suction noise at the
hole to find the problem. Probably been that way for years as the pressure
controller was cranked all the way in in an attempt to compensate for the
bleed problem.
hope that helps
scott
In a message dated 9/1/2009 11:09:10 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com writes:
Gary,
Have you tested the pump alone by connecting a hose directly to the pump
with the remainder of the system not in the loop?
Moe
N680RR
680Fp
From: _Gary Moshluk_ (mailto:gmosh@charter.net)
Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 6:26 PM
Subject: Commander-List: low suction mystery
To all Commander aficionados,
Having an issue with low suction specifically when running the left engine
alone. The right engine system is operating normally without the left
engine running producing about 4.2 Hg of suction. The left engine alone will
only produce 2.2 to 2.3 Hg max even at higher RPM settings.
I have a straight 560 fitted with dual wet suction pumps. The engine
driven vac pumps are piped to bulkhead fittings on each firewall into the
nacelle. The bulkhead fitting is connected to the regulator (via hose and
clamps). The regulator is "T"'d for attaching the low vacuum switch and
check valve, thence to the hardline forward to the instrument panel.
Ostensibly the dual check valves protect the operating vacuum source from an open
leak on the opposite side
When I rebuilt the instrument panel I relocated the engine gages,
centering them over/above the throttle pedestal to allow for a panel mounted radio
stack AND I added an artificial horizon, DG (airspeed and altimeter) to the
co-pilot side.
Harry Merrit sent me a used vacuum pump and regulator; both of which I
installed today. Best I can get off the left side vacuum pump is 2.2 HG of
suction. The regulator adjustments so far have had a negligible effect on
the suction pressure. I had thought up until today the problem resided with
the (engine driven) pump and/or regulator ahead of the check valve in the
left nacelle but the pump and regulator still won't get me the required
suction off the left side.
Anyone out there with a theory as to what I should be looking for?
Gary (c.s "Blaster")
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) |
tf=2C sorry. gmc lost mine in july.
From: tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca
Subject: Commander-List: Want to purchase a 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
There is a change all right.
C-GISS (680FLP (Mr.RPM)) is no more=2C total hydraulic failure in the starb
oard brake line=2C landed by the numbers without flaps=2C brakes or steerin
g=2C ended up careening across a ditch which bent the main spar and tore of
f the right main landing gear and skidded to a stop on the right side of th
e belly.
My insurance company will be offering it up for sale "where is=2C as is".
Does anyone know of a 680FLP (Mr.RPM) available for sale?
Tom Fisher
formally C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Friday=2C September 04=2C 2009 9:47 AM
Subject: Commander-List: TCFG Directory
Hi TCFG members=2C
We're working on this year's Membership and Vendor Directory and would appr
eciate it if you would let us know of any changes to your personal informat
ion or additions/changes to the Vendor listing.
Looking forward to the Fly-In. What a special treat to have Hoover attend
our awards Banquet. See ya in a couple of weeks.
~jb
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Failures |
Hi John, pulling that breaker is not in my POH but it makes sense.=0AIs the
idea to push it in and leave after TO for the duration or-in-just prio
r to landing?=0A=0A-=0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____
___________________________=0AFrom: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>=0ATo:
commander-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, September 6, 2009 7:09:40 PM
=0ASubject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures=0A=0A=0AHi all,=0A-=0A
I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a
hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker
on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no h
ydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear han
dle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and
thought I-could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck...
.ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to
land knowing the nose wasn't locked down.=0A-=0ASince I had no hydraulic
s for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long (10,000 foot?) run
way. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted awhile down
the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That big Comman
der tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control. I finally
lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled the nos
e onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently colla
psed at about-10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a b
ell crank, and some rivets.=0A-=0AI guess it's true what they say, "fly t
he airplane all the way until it stops".=0A-=0AIncidentally, I probably c
ould have done the same landing in less than half the length. I actually ha
d to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me enough speed to ro
ll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing a 9000-foot wh
eelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully.=0A-=0A/John=0A-=0AP
S: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final"
thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under an
y circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear un
locked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expens
ive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at
75 knots...=0A-=0A-=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: ow
ner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server
@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com=0ASent: Sunday, September 06,
2009 2:29 PM=0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Commander-List:
Hydraulic Failures=0A=0A=0AHI KIDS=0A=0AI thought I might share with you s
ome real world experience regarding hyd failures.- Over my 30 years and w
ell over-2000 hours of Commander experience,- I have suffered three com
plete-hydraulicfailures.- All in FAT nacelled Commanders.- It would b
e good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems of FLAT a
nd FAT nacelled airplanes.- The FAT nacelles do not have an electric-hy
d aux pump.- They share the same basic system including the reservoir, bu
t instead of an electric-aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the sta
nd pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump.- The FLAT nacelled airplanes ha
ve an electric pump.- There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is inten
ded to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency.- The e
ngine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from the standpipe.- The
re is a fitting in-the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only-th
e aux pump.- The trouble with that system is the
aux pump is operated by a pressure switch.- So, if a leak occurs, the en
gine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid overboard.- When the last
of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dump
ing the last of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer-
the airplane.- The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for th
e engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in th
e floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used t
o build pressure.--Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emer
gency-fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it.=0AMy fir
st failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B.- I had completed a no
rmal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals
simply went- to the floor.- I was slow to react but did finally break t
he code and switched the floor-valve and as the end of the runway approac
hed, I feverishly pumped the handle.- The airplane stopped with only the
nose wheel off the end!!- I learned an important lesson that day.- ALWA
YS check the hyd gauge-AND press on the brakes on short final (more later
).- A hard line in the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the
fluid overboard.=0AFailure number two was about ten years ago in my current
Commander 680E,-N222JS.- I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1
) when I noticed the gear was not extending as usual.- A quick glance at
the pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure.- I elected to fly ac
ross he river to Troutdale Or (TLD).- Grove field is only 2200 feet long
-for landing.- The gear extended and locked.- The flaps were of cours
e up.- I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer to dec
lare an emergency.- I-switched the valve in the floor and waited-to t
ouch down.--The landing was normal, if a little fast, and-as the nose
wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regul
ated the braking pressure.- I have found it nearly impossible, in the rea
l world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/stee
ring.- Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure.- It
worked very well and I was
able to taxi to parking with no trouble.- A flex line from the back side
of the firewall had-failed.=0AThe-last failure was only a couple-mon
ths ago in a 680-Commander destined for a A&P school.- Morris Kernick a
nd I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA for its last-gear down f
erry.- The airplane had only been flown-once in the last 25 years.- T
he hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry
permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not overly co
ncerned.- The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully.- Those old e
ngines ran great!- When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap h
andle fully down.- With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of
-the flap speed.- As I turned final, I did my-gauge and break check a
nd to my surprise, there was NO pressure.- The flaps I had called for nev
er extended and the brakes were flat.- I was committed to the landing and
tried the hand pump.- It worked, but since the flaps had been selected,
they-started down first, changing the
airplanes trim.-With touchdown only seconds away, I-decided the best s
alvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again wa
ited-for the mains to touch.- I had already pulled both throttles to fu
ll idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left.
- As the-nose touched-I-squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle.
- The airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop
and rolled to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare.- It
was only then I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself.
- Hence the swerving on landing.- With the-drag from the windmilling
-LH propeller and the RH feathered, there was significant adverse yaw.-
I was able to restart the RH engine and again, taxied to-parking using t
he hand pump.- Thought this might be of value to some of yo! u other Comm
ander drivers.- See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)- ;=0A=0A=0Ahref="http
://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Nav
igator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.mat
ronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matr
=========================0A
=0A=0A=0A
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Failures |
As soon as the first engine is started, pull the breaker and do no push in until
the next start.? It is not in the POH but should be.? We have been advocating
this for years and I have had two members call me to thank me.? They were able
to manage a complete hyd failure.? jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Donnie Rose <aquadiver99@yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 9:52 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi John, pulling that breaker is not in my POH but it makes sense.
Is the idea to push it in and leave after TO for the duration or?in?just prior
to landing?
?
Donnie Rose
205/492-8444
?
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 6, 2009 7:09:40 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi all,
?
I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard
line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on takeoff
(lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure
at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle down & getting
the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thought I?could
use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my
chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't
locked down.
?
Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long
(10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted
awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That
big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control.
I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled
the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently
collapsed at about?10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell
crank, and some rivets.
?
I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it stops".
?
Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half the
length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me
enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing
a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully.
?
/John
?
PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing?
In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circumstances,
even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked, dumping
it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive & life-threatening
than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 knots...
?
?
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
HI KIDS
?
I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures.?
Over my 30 years and well over?2000 hours of Commander experience,? I have
suffered three complete?hydraulic failures.? All in FAT nacelled Commanders.?
It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems
of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes.? The FAT nacelles do not have an electric?hyd
aux pump.? They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but
instead of an electric?aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe
in the reservoir and a hand pump.? The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric
pump.? There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a
small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency.? The engine driven pumps only
have access to the fluid from the standpipe.? There is a fitting in?the resiviour
below the standpipe that feeds only?the aux pump.? The trouble with that
system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure swi
tch.? So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid
overboard.? When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning
on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used
to stop and steer? the airplane.? The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same
standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that
a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump
is used to build pressure.??Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency?fluid
can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it.
My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B.? I had completed a normal
landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply
went? to the floor.? I was slow to react but did finally break the code and
switched the floor?valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly
pumped the handle.? The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!!?
I learned an important lesson that day.? ALWAYS check the hyd gauge?AND
press on the brakes on short final (more later).? A hard line in the belly of
the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.
Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,?N222JS.?
I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was
not extending as usual.? A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete
hyd failure.? I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD).? Grove
field is only 2200 feet long?for landing.? The gear extended and locked.?
The flaps were of course up.? I told the tower of my predicament but declined
their offer to declare an emergency.? I?switched the valve in the floor and waited?to
touch down.??The landing was normal, if a little fast, and?as the nose
wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated
the braking pressure.? I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world,
to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering.? Better
to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure.? It worked very well
and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble.? A
flex line from the back side of the firewall had?failed.
The?last failure was only a couple?months ago in a 680?Commander destined for a
A&P school.? Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA
for its last?gear down ferry.? The airplane had only been flown?once in the last
25 years.? The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was
on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not
overly concerned.? The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully.? Those old
engines ran great!? When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle
fully down.? With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of?the flap
speed.? As I turned final, I did my?gauge and break check and to my surprise,
there was NO pressure.? The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes
were flat.? I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump.? It
worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they?started down first, changing
the airplanes trim.?With touchdown only seconds aw
ay, I?decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes
only" and again waited?for the mains to touch.? I had already pulled both throttles
to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to
the left.? As the?nose touched?I?squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle.? The
airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled
to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare.? It was only then
I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself.? Hence the swerving
on landing.? With the?drag from the windmilling?LH propeller and the RH feathered,
there was significant adverse yaw.? I was able to restart the RH engine
and again, taxied to?parking using the hand pump.? Thought this might be of
value to some of yo! u other Commander drivers.? See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)?
;
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Failures |
By "next start" do you mean the second engine? And if so, does'nt that only
provide-protection from full hyd fluid loss for those few seconds? It se
ams the leak would occur-in a more stressfull scenario such as take off.
=0A=0A-=0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A__________________
______________=0AFrom: "yourtcfg@aol.com" <yourtcfg@aol.com>=0ATo: commande
r-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, September 7, 2009 12:25:08 PM=0ASubjec
t: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures=0A=0AAs soon as the first engine
is started, pull the breaker and do no push in until the next start.- It
is not in the POH but should be.- We have been advocating this for years
and I have had two members call me to thank me.- They were able to manage
a complete hyd failure.- jb=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: D
onnie Rose <aquadiver99@yahoo.com>=0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com=0ASen
t: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 9:52 am=0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failur
es=0A=0A=0AHi John, pulling that breaker is not in my POH but it makes sens
e.=0AIs the idea to push it in and leave after TO for the duration or-in
-just prior to landing?=0A=0A-=0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: John Vormbaum <john@vormb
aum.com>=0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sunday, September 6, 20
09 7:09:40 PM=0ASubject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures=0A=0A=0AHi
all,=0A-=0AI also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back
. I cracked a hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux
pump breaker on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard
...I had no hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error, after putting
the gear handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in t
he system and thought I-could use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegea
r. No luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all three wheels locked dow
n, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked down.=0A-=0ASince I had
no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long (10,0
00 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted
awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. Th
at big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional contr
ol. I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently se
ttled the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear
gently collapsed at about-10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosege
ar doors, a bell crank, and some rivets.=0A-=0AI guess it's true what the
y say, "fly the airplane all the way until it stops".=0A-=0AIncidentally,
I probably could have done the same landing in less than half the length.
I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me enoug
h speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing a
9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully.=0A-=0A/J
ohn=0A-=0APS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on
short final" thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop st
rike under any circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you had one
main gear unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine still seem
s less expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane off the runway
sideways at 75 knots...=0A-=0A-=0A=0A=0A______________________________
__=0AFrom: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commande
r-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com=0ASent: Sunday,
September 06, 2009 2:29 PM=0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Co
mmander-List: Hydraulic Failures=0A=0A=0AHI KIDS=0A=0AI thought I might sha
re with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures.- Over my 3
0 years and well over-2000 hours of Commander experience,- I have suffe
red three complete-hydraulicfailures.- All in FAT nacelled Commanders.
- It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the sys
tems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes.- The FAT nacelles do not have an
electric-hyd aux pump.- They share the same basic system including the
reservoir, but instead of an electric-aux pump, they use a valve that is
olates the stand pipe in the reservoir and a hand pump.- The FLAT nacelle
d airplanes have an electric pump.- There is a standpipe in the reservoir
that is intended to isolate a small amount of fluid to be used in an emerg
ency.- The engine driven pumps only have access to the fluid from the sta
ndpipe.- There is a fitting in-the resiviour below the standpipe that f
eeds only-the aux pump.- The trouble with that system is the
aux pump is operated by a pressure switch.- So, if a leak occurs, the en
gine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid overboard.- When the last
of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dump
ing the last of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer-
the airplane.- The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for th
e engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in th
e floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used t
o build pressure.--Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emer
gency-fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it.=0AMy fir
st failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B.- I had completed a no
rmal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals
simply went- to the floor.- I was slow to react but did finally break t
he code and switched the floor-valve and as the end of the runway approac
hed, I feverishly pumped the handle.- The airplane stopped with only the
nose wheel off the end!!- I learned an important lesson that day.- ALWA
YS check the hyd gauge-AND press on the brakes on short final (more later
).- A hard line in the belly of the airplane had failed, pumping all the
fluid overboard.=0AFailure number two was about ten years ago in my current
Commander 680E,-N222JS.- I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1
) when I noticed the gear was not extending as usual.- A quick glance at
the pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure.- I elected to fly ac
ross he river to Troutdale Or (TLD).- Grove field is only 2200 feet long
-for landing.- The gear extended and locked.- The flaps were of cours
e up.- I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer to dec
lare an emergency.- I-switched the valve in the floor and waited-to t
ouch down.--The landing was normal, if a little fast, and-as the nose
wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regul
ated the braking pressure.- I have found it nearly impossible, in the rea
l world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/stee
ring.- Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure.- It
worked very well and I was
able to taxi to parking with no trouble.- A flex line from the back side
of the firewall had-failed.=0AThe-last failure was only a couple-mon
ths ago in a 680-Commander destined for a A&P school.- Morris Kernick a
nd I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA for its last-gear down f
erry.- The airplane had only been flown-once in the last 25 years.- T
he hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry
permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not overly co
ncerned.- The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully.- Those old e
ngines ran great!- When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap h
andle fully down.- With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of
-the flap speed.- As I turned final, I did my-gauge and break check a
nd to my surprise, there was NO pressure.- The flaps I had called for nev
er extended and the brakes were flat.- I was committed to the landing and
tried the hand pump.- It worked, but since the flaps had been selected,
they-started down first, changing the
airplanes trim.-With touchdown only seconds away, I-decided the best s
alvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes only" and again wa
ited-for the mains to touch.- I had already pulled both throttles to fu
ll idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to the left.
- As the-nose touched-I-squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle.
- The airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop
and rolled to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare.- It
was only then I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself.
- Hence the swerving on landing.- With the-drag from the windmilling
-LH propeller and the RH feathered, there was significant adverse yaw.-
I was able to restart the RH engine and again, taxied to-parking using t
he hand pump.- Thought this might be of value to some of yo! ! u other Co
mmander drivers.- See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)&nb sp; ;=0A=0A=0Ahref
="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics
.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com/">http://f
orums.matronics.com=0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http:/
====0A=0A=0A
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Failures |
RE: THE NOSE GEAR SPRING INSPECTIONDOOR, IS THIS OUTSIDE THE AIRCRAFT OR
INSIDE ABOVE THE RUDDER PEDALS. MINE HAS NEVER BEEN LUBED OR INSPECTED
AS FAR AS I KNOW. THANKS,LLOYD
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg@aol.com<mailto:yourtcfg@aol.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Great story John..
That brings up another great point. The landing gear should extend
without hyd pressure. The main gear uses bungee chords to assist them.
These are easy to check visually and should be replaced every couple
years if the airplane is hangared, every year if it sits outside. The
nose gear is another story. The nose gear is extended by spring located
in the RH inspection door, just ahead of where the rudder pedals live.
These need inspected and lubricated every year, more often if the
airplane is parked out. To inspect them, one must get on your knees.
get a strong light and look forward and up through the aforementioned
inspection panel. I have seen one that had corroded, stuck and was
completely broken in half!! These are often overlooked by mechanics.
Also, your mechanic should do an emergency extension each annual. This
is done on jacks, with the gear up and locked. Then,&nbs p;by bleeding
the hyd pressure to zero by running the flaps up and down. It takes
awhile! Next, place the gear handle down. All the gear should go down
and lock with some gusto. If any are "sleepy", investigate. There are
several grease fittings so make certain they are all properly greased.
jb
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:30 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I somehow
missed it :-).
/J
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From:
owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-commander-list-ser
ver@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-commander-
list-server@matronics.com?>] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing
John,
Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart.
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From:
owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-commander-list-ser
ver@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-commander-
list-server@matronics.com?>] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi all,
I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I
cracked a hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux
pump breaker on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything
overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error,
after putting the gear handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a
few PSI back in the system and thought I could use it to cycle the gear
& lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all
three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked
down.
Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose
Stockton's long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the
power back, and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held
off, under minimal power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than
sufficient for directional control. I finally lost full elevator
authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled the nose onto the
pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently collapsed at
about 10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell
crank, and some rivets.
I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until
it stops".
Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than
half the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the
nose up & give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the
runway...so I ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is
balanced beautifully.
/John
PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short
final" thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop
strike under any circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you
had one main gear unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine
still seems less expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane
off the runway sideways at 75 knots...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From:
owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-commander-list-ser
ver@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-commander-
list-server@matronics.com?>] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com<mailto:yourtcfg@aol.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
HI KIDS
I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding
hyd failures. Over my 30 years and well over 2000 hours of Commander
experience, I have suffered three complete hydraulic failures. All in
FAT nacelled Commanders. It would be good to spend a moment to discuss
the difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes. The
FAT nacelles do not have an electric hyd aux pump. They share the same
basic system including the reservoir, but instead of an electric aux
pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the reservoir and
a hand pump. The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric pump. There
is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a small
amount of fluid to be used in an emergency. The engine driven pumps
only have access to the fluid from the standpipe. There is a fitting in
the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only the aux pump. The
trouble with that system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure
switch. So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump
all the fluid overboard. When the last of the fluid is gone, the
pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last of the
fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer the airplane. The
FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the engine driven
pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in the floor of
the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is used to build
pressure. Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency
fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it.
My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B. I had
completed a normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to
brake, the pedals simply went to the floor. I was slow to react but
did finally break the code and switched the floor valve and as the end
of the runway approached, I feverishly pumped the handle. The airplane
stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!! I learned an important
lesson that day. ALWAYS check the hyd gauge AND press on the brakes on
short final (more later). A hard line in the belly of the airplane had
failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.
Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander
680E, N222JS. I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I
noticed the gear was not extending as usual. A quick glance at the
pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure. I elected to fly
across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD). Grove field is only 2200 feet
long for landing. The gear extended and locked. The flaps were of
course up. I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer
to declare an emergency. I switched the valve in the floor and waited
to touch down. The landing was normal, if a little fast, and as the
nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle
to regulated the braking pressure. I have found it nearly impossible,
in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate
the brakes/steering. Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded
pressure. It worked very well and I was able to taxi to parking with no
trouble. A flex line from the back side of the firewall had failed.
The last failure was only a couple months ago in a 680 Commander
destined for a A&P school. Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable
time preparing N87YA for its last gear down ferry. The airplane had
only been flown once in the last 25 years. The hyd system would only
indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear
would remain down and very locked, I was not overly concerned. The 2.5
hour flight was completely uneventfully. Those old engines ran great!
When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down.
With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of the flap speed.
As I turned final, I did my gauge and break check and to my surprise,
there was NO pressure. The flaps I had called for never extended and
the brakes were flat. I was committed to the landing and tried the hand
pump. It worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they started
down first, changing the airplanes trim. With touchdown only seconds
away, I decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I
selected "brakes only" and again waited for the mains to touch. I had
already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I flared the airplane
began to swerve sharply to the left. As the nose touched I squeezed the
brakes and pumped the hanle. The airplane used most of the runway
width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the centerline
with plenty of room to spare. It was only then I noticed that the RH
engine had quite and feathered itself. Hence the swerving on landing.
With the drag from the windmilling LH propeller and the RH feathered,
there was significant adverse yaw. I was able to restart the RH engine
and again, taxied to parking using the hand pump. Thought this might be
of value to some of yo! ! u other Commander drivers. See ya at the
fly-in (I hope!!)&nb sp; ;
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List<http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?C
ommander-List<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
href="http://forums.matronics.com<http://forums.matronics.com/>">http:/
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ntribution>">http://www.matronics.com/c<http://www.matronics.com/c>
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Failures |
What pushes the gear down is mainly (pun intended) the Nitrogen cylinder
on the outboard side of each gear.
I was advised that the bungees are a six month item.
Tom
formally C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: lloyd silverman
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
RE: THE NOSE GEAR SPRING INSPECTIONDOOR, IS THIS OUTSIDE THE AIRCRAFT
OR INSIDE ABOVE THE RUDDER PEDALS. MINE HAS NEVER BEEN LUBED OR
INSPECTED AS FAR AS I KNOW. THANKS,LLOYD
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg@aol.com
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Great story John..
That brings up another great point. The landing gear should extend
without hyd pressure. The main gear uses bungee chords to assist them.
These are easy to check visually and should be replaced every couple
years if the airplane is hangared, every year if it sits outside. The
nose gear is another story. The nose gear is extended by spring located
in the RH inspection door, just ahead of where the rudder pedals live.
These need inspected and lubricated every year, more often if the
airplane is parked out. To inspect them, one must get on your knees.
get a strong light and look forward and up through the aforementioned
inspection panel. I have seen one that had corroded, stuck and was
completely broken in half!! These are often overlooked by mechanics.
Also, your mechanic should do an emergency extension each annual. This
is done on jacks, with the gear up and locked. Then,&nbs p;by bleeding
the hyd pressure to zero by running the flaps up and down. It takes
awhile! Next, place the gear handle down. All the gear should go down
and lock with some gusto. If any are "sleepy", investigate. There are
several grease fittings so make certain they are all properly greased.
jb
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:30 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I
somehow missed it :-).
/J
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing
John,
Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart.
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John
Vormbaum
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi all,
I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I
cracked a hard line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux
pump breaker on takeoff (lesson learned) so it pumped everything
overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure at all. To compound the error,
after putting the gear handle down & getting the mains locked, I got a
few PSI back in the system and thought I could use it to cycle the gear
& lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my chance to get all
three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't locked
down.
Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose
Stockton's long (10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the
power back, and coasted awhile down the runway with the nosegear held
off, under minimal power. That big Commander tail/rudder was more than
sufficient for directional control. I finally lost full elevator
authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled the nose onto the
pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently collapsed at
about 10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell
crank, and some rivets.
I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until
it stops".
Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less
than half the length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep
the nose up & give me enough speed to roll through the last half of the
runway...so I ended up doing a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is
balanced beautifully.
/John
PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short
final" thing? In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop
strike under any circumstances, even a straight belly landing. If you
had one main gear unlocked, dumping it on a prop & needing a new engine
still seems less expensive & life-threatening than sawing the airplane
off the runway sideways at 75 knots...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
HI KIDS
I thought I might share with you some real world experience
regarding hyd failures. Over my 30 years and well over 2000 hours of
Commander experience, I have suffered three complete hydraulic
failures. All in FAT nacelled Commanders. It would be good to spend a
moment to discuss the difference in the systems of FLAT and FAT nacelled
airplanes. The FAT nacelles do not have an electric hyd aux pump. They
share the same basic system including the reservoir, but instead of an
electric aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe in the
reservoir and a hand pump. The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric
pump. There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate
a small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency. The engine driven
pumps only have access to the fluid from the standpipe. There is a
fitting in the resiviour below the standpipe that feeds only the aux
pump. The trouble with that system is the aux pump is operated by a
pressure switch. So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will
eventually pump all the fluid overboard. When the last of the fluid is
gone, the pressure will drop, turning on the aux pump dumping the last
of the fluid that was intended to be used to stop and steer the
airplane. The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same standpipe for the
engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that a valve in
the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump is
used to build pressure. Unlike the electric system, there is no way the
emergency fluid can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it.
My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B. I had
completed a normal landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to
brake, the pedals simply went to the floor. I was slow to react but
did finally break the code and switched the floor valve and as the end
of the runway approached, I feverishly pumped the handle. The airplane
stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!! I learned an important
lesson that day. ALWAYS check the hyd gauge AND press on the brakes on
short final (more later). A hard line in the belly of the airplane had
failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.
Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander
680E, N222JS. I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I
noticed the gear was not extending as usual. A quick glance at the
pressure gauge confirmed a complete hyd failure. I elected to fly
across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD). Grove field is only 2200 feet
long for landing. The gear extended and locked. The flaps were of
course up. I told the tower of my predicament but declined their offer
to declare an emergency. I switched the valve in the floor and waited
to touch down. The landing was normal, if a little fast, and as the
nose wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle
to regulated the braking pressure. I have found it nearly impossible,
in the real world, to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate
the brakes/steering. Better to depress the brakes and build the ne eded
pressure. It worked very well and I was able to taxi to parking with no
trouble. A flex line from the back side of the firewall had failed.
The last failure was only a couple months ago in a 680 Commander
destined for a A&P school. Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable
time preparing N87YA for its last gear down ferry. The airplane had
only been flown once in the last 25 years. The hyd system would only
indicate about 700psi, but since it was on a ferry permit and the gear
would remain down and very locked, I was not overly concerned. The 2.5
hour flight was completely uneventfully. Those old engines ran great!
When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle fully down.
With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of the flap speed.
As I turned final, I did my gauge and break check and to my surprise,
there was NO pressure. The flaps I had called for never extended and
the brakes were flat. I was committed to the landing and tried the hand
pump. It worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they started
down first, changing the airplanes trim. With touchdown only seconds
away, I decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I
selected "brakes only" and again waited for the mains to touch. I had
already pulled both throttles to full idle and as I flared the airplane
began to swerve sharply to the left. As the nose touched I squeezed the
brakes and pumped the hanle. The airplane used most of the runway
width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled to a stop on the centerline
with plenty of room to spare. It was only then I noticed that the RH
engine had quite and feathered itself. Hence the swerving on landing.
With the drag from the windmilling LH propeller and the RH feathered,
there was significant adverse yaw. I was able to restart the RH engine
and again, taxied to parking using the hand pump. Thought this might be
of value to some of yo! ! u other Commander drivers. See ya at the
fly-in (I hope!!)&nb sp; ;
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
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ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Hydraulic Failures |
HI TOM
The nitrogen does assist the main gear extension on the twisty gear Commanders,
not so on the fat nacelle airplanes.? The nose gear is on its own on all models.?
The bungees and the spring finsh what gravity and nitrogen started and ensure
the the gear remains locked after?touchdown and at anytime there in no hyd
pressure present.? There is no official?TBO on the bungee's.? They should be
replaced on condition but, for sure Tom, sooner is better than later!!
?
The access panel to inspect the nose spring is located on the?fuselage skin RH
(Co-pilot) side?low? It is just ahead of the forward bulkhead that separates the
nose section from the cabin, just ahead of the rudder pedals.?
?
The circuit breaker should be pushed in only long enough to bring up the hyd pressure
so you have brakes to start the engines, then be?pulled and should remain
pulled until the next engine start.? I kinda answerd the last three posts at
once, hope nobody minds.? jb?
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Sent: Mon, Sep 7, 2009 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
What pushes the gear down is mainly (pun intended) the Nitrogen cylinder on the
outboard side of each gear.
I was advised that the bungees are a six month item.
Tom
formally C-GISS
----- Original Message -----
From: lloyd silverman
Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
RE: THE NOSE GEAR SPRING INSPECTIONDOOR, IS THIS OUTSIDE THE AIRCRAFT OR INSIDE
ABOVE THE RUDDER PEDALS. MINE HAS NEVER BEEN LUBED OR INSPECTED AS FAR AS I KNOW.
THANKS,LLOYD
----- Original Message -----
From: yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Great story John..
That brings up another great point.? The landing gear should extend without hyd
pressure.? The main gear uses bungee chords to assist them.? These are easy to
check visually and should be replaced every couple years if the airplane is
hangared, every year if it sits outside.??The nose gear is another story.? The
nose gear is extended by spring located in the RH inspection door, just ahead
of where the rudder pedals live.? These need?inspected and lubricated every year,?more
often?if the airplane is parked out.? To inspect them, one must get
on your knees. get a strong light and look forward and up through the aforementioned
inspection panel.? I have seen one that had corroded, stuck and was completely
broken in half!!? These are often overlooked by mechanics.? Also, your
mechanic should do an emergency extension each annual.? This is done?on jacks,
with the gear up and locked.? Then,&nbs p;by?bleeding the hyd pressure to zero
by running the flaps?up and down.? It takes awhile
!? Next, place the gear handle down.? All the gear should go down and lock with
some gusto.? If any are "sleepy", investigate.? There are several grease fittings
so make certain they are all properly greased.? jb?????
-----Original Message-----
From: John Vormbaum <john@vormbaum.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 6, 2009 6:30 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Oh I misread that then....I thought you had good reason and I somehow missed it
:-).
?
/J
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing
?
John,
Yup, I agree. As I said, it wasn't that smart.
Nico
?
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
Hi all,
?
I also had a complete hyd. failure in my 500B a few years back. I cracked a hard
line in the wing root, and had forgotten to pull the aux pump breaker on takeoff
(lesson learned) so it pumped everything overboard...I had no hydraulic pressure
at all. To compound the error, after putting the gear handle down & getting
the mains locked, I got a few PSI back in the system and thought I?could
use it to cycle the gear & lock the nosegear. No luck....ended up blowing my
chance to get all three wheels locked down, and had to land knowing the nose wasn't
locked down.
?
Since I had no hydraulics for steering, flaps or brakes, I chose Stockton's long
(10,000 foot?) runway. I landed on the mains, pulled the power back, and coasted
awhile down the runway with the nosegear held off, under minimal power. That
big Commander tail/rudder was more than sufficient for directional control.
I finally lost full elevator authority at about 20 knots, and gently settled
the nose onto the pavement. I rolled about 8 feet before the nosegear gently
collapsed at about?10 knots. The only damage was a pair of nosegear doors, a bell
crank, and some rivets.
?
I guess it's true what they say, "fly the airplane all the way until it stops".
?
Incidentally, I probably could have done the same landing in less than half the
length. I actually had to roll some throttle in to keep the nose up & give me
enough speed to roll through the last half of the runway...so I ended up doing
a 9000-foot wheelie. The airplane really is balanced beautifully.
?
/John
?
PS: Nico, I have to ask, what's with the "feather the props on short final" thing?
In a Commander, you'd be hard pressed to have a prop strike under any circumstances,
even a straight belly landing. If you had one main gear unlocked, dumping
it on a prop & needing a new engine still seems less expensive & life-threatening
than sawing the airplane off the runway sideways at 75 knots...
?
?
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of yourtcfg@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 2:29 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Hydraulic Failures
HI KIDS
?
I thought I might share with you some real world experience regarding hyd failures.?
Over my 30 years and well over?2000 hours of Commander experience,? I have
suffered three complete?hydraulic failures.? All in FAT nacelled Commanders.?
It would be good to spend a moment to discuss the difference in the systems
of FLAT and FAT nacelled airplanes.? The FAT nacelles do not have an electric?hyd
aux pump.? They share the same basic system including the reservoir, but
instead of an electric?aux pump, they use a valve that isolates the stand pipe
in the reservoir and a hand pump.? The FLAT nacelled airplanes have an electric
pump.? There is a standpipe in the reservoir that is intended to isolate a
small amount of fluid to be used in an emergency.? The engine driven pumps only
have access to the fluid from the standpipe.? There is a fitting in?the resiviour
below the standpipe that feeds only?the aux pump.? The trouble with that
system is the aux pump is operated by a pressure swi
tch.? So, if a leak occurs, the engine pump(s) will eventually pump all the fluid
overboard.? When the last of the fluid is gone, the pressure will drop, turning
on the aux pump dumping the last of the fluid that was intended to be used
to stop and steer? the airplane.? The FAT nacelled airplanes have the same
standpipe for the engine driven pumps, but the emergency system requires that
a valve in the floor of the cabin be selected to "Brakes only" and a hand pump
is used to build pressure.??Unlike the electric system, there is no way the emergency?fluid
can be pumped overboard without he pilot knowing it.
My first failure at least 25 years ago in a 560A, N2649B.? I had completed a normal
landing at Caldwell Idaho (EUL) and as I started to brake, the pedals simply
went? to the floor.? I was slow to react but did finally break the code and
switched the floor?valve and as the end of the runway approached, I feverishly
pumped the handle.? The airplane stopped with only the nose wheel off the end!!?
I learned an important lesson that day.? ALWAYS check the hyd gauge?AND
press on the brakes on short final (more later).? A hard line in the belly of
the airplane had failed, pumping all the fluid overboard.
Failure number two was about ten years ago in my current Commander 680E,?N222JS.?
I had entered the pattern at Grove field (1W1) when I noticed the gear was
not extending as usual.? A quick glance at the pressure gauge confirmed a complete
hyd failure.? I elected to fly across he river to Troutdale Or (TLD).? Grove
field is only 2200 feet long?for landing.? The gear extended and locked.?
The flaps were of course up.? I told the tower of my predicament but declined
their offer to declare an emergency.? I?switched the valve in the floor and waited?to
touch down.??The landing was normal, if a little fast, and?as the nose
wheel touched I depressed the rudder pedals and pumped the handle to regulated
the braking pressure.? I have found it nearly impossible, in the real world,
to build sufficient pressure in advance to operate the brakes/steering.? Better
to depress the brakes and build the ne eded pressure.? It worked very well
and I was able to taxi to parking with no trouble.? A
flex line from the back side of the firewall had?failed.
The?last failure was only a couple?months ago in a 680?Commander destined for a
A&P school.? Morris Kernick and I had spent considerable time preparing N87YA
for its last?gear down ferry.? The airplane had only been flown?once in the last
25 years.? The hyd system would only indicate about 700psi, but since it was
on a ferry permit and the gear would remain down and very locked, I was not
overly concerned.? The 2.5 hour flight was completely uneventfully.? Those old
engines ran great!? When I entered the patter to land, I placed the flap handle
fully down.? With the gear extended. the airplane never flew out of?the flap
speed.? As I turned final, I did my?gauge and break check and to my surprise,
there was NO pressure.? The flaps I had called for never extended and the brakes
were flat.? I was committed to the landing and tried the hand pump.? It
worked, but since the flaps had been selected, they?started down first, changing
the airplanes trim.?With touchdown only seconds aw
ay, I?decided the best salvation was to abandon the flaps and I selected "brakes
only" and again waited?for the mains to touch.? I had already pulled both throttles
to full idle and as I flared the airplane began to swerve sharply to
the left.? As the?nose touched?I?squeezed the brakes and pumped the hanle.? The
airplane used most of the runway width, but stayed on the blacktop and rolled
to a stop on the centerline with plenty of room to spare.? It was only then
I noticed that the RH engine had quite and feathered itself.? Hence the swerving
on landing.? With the?drag from the windmilling?LH propeller and the RH feathered,
there was significant adverse yaw.? I was able to restart the RH engine
and again, taxied to?parking using the hand pump.? Thought this might be of
value to some of yo! ! u other Commander drivers.? See ya at the fly-in (I hope!!)&nb
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