Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:17 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Chris)
2. 06:48 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Donald Falik)
3. 07:01 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Tom Fisher)
4. 07:22 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Tylor Hall)
5. 07:56 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Chris)
6. 08:44 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (yourtcfg@aol.com)
7. 08:47 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Tylor Hall)
8. 09:12 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Donald Falik)
9. 09:34 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Tylor Hall)
10. 10:35 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Chris)
11. 12:19 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Brock Lorber)
12. 12:52 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Tylor Hall)
13. 01:49 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Chris)
14. 03:08 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (nico css)
15. 03:33 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Tylor Hall)
16. 06:20 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (nico css)
17. 06:53 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (yourtcfg@aol.com)
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
Ray Mansfield wrote:
> In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of
> flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here?
Ray,
If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper
fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and
didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle
than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to
flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for
aluminum. This causes cracks to form.
You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas.
The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion. It
also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age.
You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues. During my
commander restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every
hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd suggest a very careful
inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the
nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps
are not loose or missing. If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to
old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking. Clean
the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting.
Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas where the lines are
chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas
immediately. It's all just part of being the care-taker of a complex
old airframe.
good luck,
chris
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
I can relate a similar issue with my 500S.- I had one line fail due to ch
afing in the baggage area.- Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in
the baggage compartment.- Shortly thereafter another line failed just be
yond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous r
epair.=0ADon=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Chris <
cschuerm@cox.net>=0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sun, November
15, 2009 9:15:52 AM=0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line
t>=0A=0ARay Mansfield wrote:=0A> In other words, is this going to be a prob
lem in the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have e
xperience here?=0A=0ARay,=0AIf the line failed right at the flare, it was p
robably due to improper fabrication.- I've seen many cases where someone
has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a differen
t flare angle than copper lines.- The tool you'll find at your local hard
ware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an ang
le for aluminum.- This causes cracks to form.=0AYou also mentioned that y
ou've been repairing corrosion in other areas.- The aluminum used for air
craft lines is fairly prone to corrosion.- It also "work hardens" from vi
bration and becomes more brittle with age.- You may simply be dealing wit
h aging aircraft issues.- During my commander restoration, we ended up ha
ving to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons
.- I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especia
lly the ones exposed in the nacelles.- Make sure they are well supported
and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing.- If the lines are allo
wed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigu
e cracking.- Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for co
rrosion pitting.- Even small pits lead to failure.- Look for any areas
where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and ad
dress those areas immediately.- It's all just part
of being the care-taker of a complex old airframe.=0A=0Agood luck,=0Achris
- - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
=========================0A
====================
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
In addition to the last failure two years before that the line entering
the baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff
point and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which dissolved
all the insulation on most of the wires. I had to replace almost all
the wires in the bundle. Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the
entire bundle in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected from
any other leaks that may occur in the future.
Tom
Formally C-GISS
680FLP (Mr.RPM)
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald Falik
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to
chafing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted
in the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just
beyond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a
previous repair.
Don
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: Chris <cschuerm@cox.net>
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
Ray Mansfield wrote:
> In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of
flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here?
Ray,
If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper
fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and
didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle
than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to
flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for
aluminum. This causes cracks to form.
You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other
areas. The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to
corrosion. It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more
brittle with age. You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues.
During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace
virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd
suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially
the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and
that the adel clamps are not loose or missing. If the lines are allowed
to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue
cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for
corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas
where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and
address those areas immediately. It's all just part of being the
care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP
www.homebuip;
&n==============
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
I am surprised to find out that the hydraulic lines in a aero commander
are aluminum. I would have thought that 1000psi to 3000psi lines would
be steel or SS. I manufacturer equipment that runs in this pressure
range and we always use SS 1/4" tubing and compression fittings.
It is easy to work, bends will with a tubing bender, would resist
corrosion and lots of other good features.
Would it be a big deal with the FAA to change to SS tubing?
I am not an A&P.
Tylor Hall
On Nov 15, 2009, at 7:32 AM, Donald Falik wrote:
> I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to
chafing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted
in the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just
beyond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a
previous repair.
> Don
>
> From: Chris <cschuerm@cox.net>
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
>
>
> Ray Mansfield wrote:
> > In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of
flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here?
>
> Ray,
> If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper
fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and
didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle
than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to
flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for
aluminum. This causes cracks to form.
> You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other
areas. The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to
corrosion. It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more
brittle with age. You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues.
During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace
virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd
suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially
the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and
that the adel clamps are not loose or missing. If the lines are allowed
to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue
cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for
corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas
where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and
address those areas immediately. It's all just part of being the
care-talectricwww.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP
www.homebuip; &n=============
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
Tylor Hall wrote:
> I am surprised to find out that the hydraulic lines in a aero
> commander are aluminum. I would have thought that 1000psi to 3000psi
> lines would be steel or SS.
I think I just detected Old Bob cringe at the thought of adding a couple
hundred pounds of weight to an airplane :-)
Stainless and carbon steel are both occasionally used, but aluminum is
typical for light GA aircraft. Converting a Commander to all stainless
lines would add an enormous amount of weight.
chris
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
The "hard lines" in all the Commanders are becoming the number one hyd iss
ue. Inspect all of them and dont kid yourself. If they have any corrosio
n, change them out.
ALSO!!You landed with no brakes or steering and pulled it off, good on you
! It is not necessary do that. PLEASE, PLEASE EVERYONE, LISTEN UP. AS SO
ON AS THE ENGINS ARE RUNNING PULL THE AUX HYD CIRCUIT BREAKER. DOING THIS
ASSURES THAT THERE WILL BE ENOUGH FLUID FOR BRAKES AND STEERING. PLEASE,
LETS STOP BEING STUBBORN ABOUT THIS BEFORE ANOTHER AIRPLANE IS LOST!! Th
anks and good job with the landing!! jb
-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Mansfield <hcourier@cox.net>
Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 5:42 pm
Subject: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
Hello,
Had a small hydraulic line in the left wheel well break a while back. Had
to land with no brakes, flaps, or steering. Got that fixed. Flew plane
to the A&P location for an annual. Test flight after the annual, hydraul
ic leak in either the up or down line to the right main gear, actual line
hasn't been isolated yet. My question...both hydraulic lines, on differe
nt side of the plane (comletely different lines also) have broken within
2 hours of flying time. Is there any hydraulic line history or trend for
Commanders whereby hydraulic lines start to fail at the same time. In ot
her words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of flight or ne
xt years of flight. Does anyone have experience here?
Had to have new engine mounts and wastegates replaced during the annual.
Paul Gendron in Ft Lauderdale, FL did a good job with the work. Corrosi
on on the mounts and manual wastegates were out of shape and quite thin at
the elbows. Plane has been down over 4 months and now this hydraulic li
ne problem.
Ray Mansfield
N91ES
850-217-5185
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
We save a whole bunch when we go to modern electronics.
SS tubing is not that heavy. I will go look it up.
There is a question. How much tubing is in a Twin Commander?
How much tubing can we remove when the oil pressure and fuel pressure lines come
out and are replace with electrical remote sensors?
Tylor Hall
On Nov 15, 2009, at 8:55 AM, Chris wrote:
>
> Tylor Hall wrote:
>> I am surprised to find out that the hydraulic lines in a aero commander are
aluminum. I would have thought that 1000psi to 3000psi lines would be steel or
SS.
>
> I think I just detected Old Bob cringe at the thought of adding a couple hundred
pounds of weight to an airplane :-)
> Stainless and carbon steel are both occasionally used, but aluminum is typical
for light GA aircraft. Converting a Commander to all stainless lines would
add an enormous amount of weight.
> chris
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol.- The failure of the line in the baggage
compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole at the po
int that it was chafing against an adjacent line.- The second failure sho
rtly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing root and just d
umped the fluid outside along the fuselage.- That was the one due to an i
mproper flare.- The mechanic showed it to me.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________
___________________=0AFrom: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>=0ATo:
commander-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM=0A
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems=0A=0A=0AIn a
ddition to the last failure two years before that the line entering the bag
gage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pis
sed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle-which dissolved all the insul
ation on most of the wires.- I had to replace almost all the wires in the
bundle.- Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in
a-Skydrol proof-sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks
that may occur in the future.=0A-=0ATom=0AFormally C-GISS=0A680FLP (Mr.RP
M)=0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>From: Donald Falik =0A>To: commander-
list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM=0A>Subject:
Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems=0A>=0A>=0A>I can rela
te a similar issue with my 500S.- I had one line fail due to chafing in t
he baggage area.- Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in the bagga
ge compartment.- Shortly thereafter another line failed just beyond the r
epaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair.=0A>
Don=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Chris <cschu
erm@cox.net>=0A>To: commander-list@matronics.com=0A>Sent: Sun, November 15,
2009 9:15:52 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line p
t>=0A>=0A>Ray Mansfield wrote:=0A>> In other words, is this going to be a p
roblem in the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone hav
e experience here?=0A>=0A>Ray,=0A>If the line failed right at the flare, it
was probably due to improper fabrication.- I've seen many cases where so
meone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a di
fferent flare angle than copper lines.- The tool you'll find at your loca
l hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp
an angle for aluminum.- This causes cracks to form.=0A>You also mentioned
that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas.- The aluminum used
for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion.- It also "work hardens"
from vibration and becomes more brittle with age.- You may simply be deal
ing with aging aircraft issues.- During my commander restoration, we ende
d up having to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these
reasons.- I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines -
especially the ones exposed in the nacelles.- Make sure they are well sup
ported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing.- If the lines a
re allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid
fatigue cracking.- Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look
for corrosion pitting.- Even small pits lead to failure.- Look for any
areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose)
and address those areas immediately.- It's all just part
of being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP
www.homebuip; - - - - - - - - - - &n======
==========0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> >href="http://www.buildersboo
ks.com">www.buildersbooks.com >href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.ho
mebuilthelp.com >href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.
matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">h
ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matro
nics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>href="http://www
==
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb.
per foot.
300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty
weight.
:)
Tylor Hall
On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote:
> Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol. The failure of the line in the
baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole
at the point that it was chafing against an adjacent line. The second
failure shortly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing
root and just dumped the fluid outside along the fuselage. That was the
one due to an improper flare. The mechanic showed it to me.
>
> From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
>
> In addition to the last failure two years before that the line
entering the baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a
chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which
dissolved all the insulation on most of the wires. I had to replace
almost all the wires in the bundle. Once that was done and paid for I
wrapped the entire bundle in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be
protected from any other leaks that may occur in the future.
>
> Tom
> Formally C-GISS
> 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Donald Falik
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
>
> I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to
chafing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted
in the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just
beyond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a
previous repair.
> Don
>
> From: Chris <cschuerm@cox.net>
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
>
>
> Ray Mansfield wrote:
> > In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of
flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here?
>
> Ray,
> If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper
fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and
didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle
than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to
flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for
aluminum. This causes cracks to form.
> You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other
areas. The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to
corrosion. It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more
brittle with age. You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues.
During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace
virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd
suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially
the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and
that the adel clamps are not loose or missing. If the lines are allowed
to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue
cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for
corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas
where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and
address those areas immediately. It's all just part of being the
care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP
www.homebuip; &n=============
=
>
>
>
>
>
> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http
://forums.matronics.com
>
> www.aerow.buildersbooks.com/" rel=nofollow
target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.comhttp://www.matronronics.com/Navigator
?Commander-List" rel=nofollow
target=_blank>http://htt================
=======
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
Tylor Hall wrote:
> SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb.
> per foot.
Tylor,
Can you provide a reference for those numbers please? My materials
quick reference guide shows that stainless tube is aprox. three times
*heavier* than aluminum.
chris
Message 11
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Subject: | AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
Two charts that show up in a quick search:
http://www.webcoindustries.com/tubing/stainless/weight.cfm
http://www.airpartsinc.com/products/Aluminum-tubing-round-6061-t6.htm
Apples to oranges, but similar OD and thickness (1/4" and .035) gives
.028 lbs/ft for aluminum and .082 for stainless.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Chris
Sent: Sun 11/15/2009 10:34 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
Tylor Hall wrote:
> SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb.
> per foot.
Tylor,
Can you provide a reference for those numbers please? My materials
quick reference guide shows that stainless tube is aprox. three times
*heavier* than aluminum.
chris
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-01-153-scs.pdf
6061 is a medium strength alloy used for most general-purpose applications. it
is more corrosion-resistant than 2024. It is also easier to weld than 2024.
2024 is a high-strength alloy most often used in aerospace applications. It has
a yield strength that is roughly 10 percent higher and an ultimate strength of
roughly 50 percent higher than 6061.
I got this quote off Onlinemetals.com. I did not find a difference in the weight
of 6061 VS 2024. Does any one have the right alloy? Looks like the 2024 is
the aerospace version? Chris or JimBob, could an owner substitute SS for Alum?
I buy it in 20' lengths.
Tylor Hall
>
> Two charts that show up in a quick search:
>
> http://www.webcoindustries.com/tubing/stainless/weight.cfm
> http://www.airpartsinc.com/products/Aluminum-tubing-round-6061-t6.htm
>
> Apples to oranges, but similar OD and thickness (1/4" and .035) gives .028 lbs/ft
for aluminum and .082 for stainless.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Chris
> Sent: Sun 11/15/2009 10:34 AM
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
>
>
> Tylor Hall wrote:
>> SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb.
>> per foot.
>
> Tylor,
> Can you provide a reference for those numbers please? My materials
> quick reference guide shows that stainless tube is aprox. three times
> *heavier* than aluminum.
>
> chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <winmail.dat>
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
Tylor Hall wrote:
> <http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-01-153-scs.pdf>
> I did not find a difference in the weight of 6061 VS 2024. Does any
> one have the right alloy? Looks like the 2024 is the aerospace
> version? Chris or JimBob, could an owner substitute SS for Alum?
Tylor,
A lot of my books are still packed in boxes from moving so I don't have
much definitive information available. I checked AC43.13 and it doesn't
mention anything about substitution. Actually, the version I have
doesn't mention stainless at all although I know there is an aircraft
approved 316L SS tube.
There are several different alloys used for alum. 3003-0 is used for
low pressure applications (mainly instrument stuff). 5052-0 is medium
pressure (hydraulic, fuel, oil). I think the high pressure apps used
2024-T3 (which is a typical alloy for aircraft structures and skin)
For my two cents, I'd replace aluminum with aluminum. If you're in a
corrosive environment, paint the tubes with zinc chromate.
chris
Message 14
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Subject: | AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
Tylor,
Aluminum is 5 times heavier than SS? I guess wall-thickness will have
something to do with it, right?
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. per
foot.
300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty
weight.
:)
Tylor Hall
On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote:
Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol. The failure of the line in the baggage
compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole at the
point that it was chafing against an adjacent line. The second failure
shortly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing root and just
dumped the fluid outside along the fuselage. That was the one due to an
improper flare. The mechanic showed it to me.
_____
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
In addition to the last failure two years before that the line entering the
baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and
pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which dissolved all the
insulation on most of the wires. I had to replace almost all the wires in
the bundle. Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in
a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that
may occur in the future.
Tom
Formally C-GISS
680FLP (Mr.RPM)
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald Falik <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to
chafing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in
the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just beyond
the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair.
Don
_____
From: Chris <cschuerm@cox.net>
Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
Ray Mansfield wrote:
> In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of flight
or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here?
Ray,
If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper
fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't
know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper
lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to flare line ends
is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum. This causes
cracks to form.
You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas. The
aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion. It also
"work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age. You may
simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues. During my commander
restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the
airplane for these reasons. I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all
your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure
they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing.
If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can
lead to rapid fatigue cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch
bright and look for corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure.
Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something
coming loose) and address those areas immediately. It's all just part of
being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/> www.homebuip;
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/> &n==============
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
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bution
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s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
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Message 15
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
NICO,
NO, SS is twice the weight per foot as Aluminum. .080 VS .0453
Typo error.
Tylor Hall
On Nov 15, 2009, at 4:07 PM, nico css wrote:
> Tylor,
> Aluminum is 5 times heavier than SS? I guess wall-thickness will have
something to do with it, right?
> Nico
>
>
> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor
Hall
> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:23 AM
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
>
> SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb.
per foot.
> 300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty
weight.
> :)
> Tylor Hall
>
> On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote:
>
>> Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol. The failure of the line in the
baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole
at the point that it was chafing against an adjacent line. The second
failure shortly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing
root and just dumped the fluid outside along the fuselage. That was the
one due to an improper flare. The mechanic showed it to me.
>>
>> From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
>> To: commander-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM
>> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
>>
>> In addition to the last failure two years before that the line
entering the baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a
chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which
dissolved all the insulation on most of the wires. I had to replace
almost all the wires in the bundle. Once that was done and paid for I
wrapped the entire bundle in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be
protected from any other leaks that may occur in the future.
>>
>> Tom
>> Formally C-GISS
>> 680FLP (Mr.RPM)
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Donald Falik
>> To: commander-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
>>
>> I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due
to chafing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid
erupted in the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line
failed just beyond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare
from a previous repair.
>> Don
>>
>> From: Chris <cschuerm@cox.net>
>> To: commander-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
>>
>>
>> Ray Mansfield wrote:
>> > In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of
flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here?
>>
>> Ray,
>> If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to
improper fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a
line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare
angle than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware
store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle
for aluminum. This causes cracks to form.
>> You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other
areas. The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to
corrosion. It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more
brittle with age. You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues.
During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace
virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd
suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially
the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and
that the adel clamps are not loose or missing. If the lines are allowed
to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue
cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for
corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas
where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and
address those areas immediately. It's all just part of being the
care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP
www.homebuip; &n=============
=
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
>> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
>> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch
ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http
://forums.matronics.com
>>
>> www.aerow.buildersbooks.com/" rel=nofollow
target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.comhttp://www.matronronics.com/Navigator
?Commander-List" rel=nofollow
target=_blank>http://htt================
=======
>>
>>
>>
>> color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">www.aeroelectric.com
>> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
>> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
>>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co
ntribution
>>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
>> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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Subject: | AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
OK, thanks, Tylor.
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
NICO,
NO, SS is twice the weight per foot as Aluminum. .080 VS .0453
Typo error.
Tylor Hall
On Nov 15, 2009, at 4:07 PM, nico css wrote:
Tylor,
Aluminum is 5 times heavier than SS? I guess wall-thickness will have
something to do with it, right?
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. per
foot.
300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty
weight.
:)
Tylor Hall
On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote:
Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol. The failure of the line in the baggage
compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole at the
point that it was chafing against an adjacent line. The second failure
shortly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing root and just
dumped the fluid outside along the fuselage. That was the one due to an
improper flare. The mechanic showed it to me.
_____
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
In addition to the last failure two years before that the line entering the
baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and
pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which dissolved all the
insulation on most of the wires. I had to replace almost all the wires in
the bundle. Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in
a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that
may occur in the future.
Tom
Formally C-GISS
680FLP (Mr.RPM)
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald Falik <mailto:dfalik@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to
chafing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in
the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just beyond
the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair.
Don
_____
From: Chris <cschuerm@cox.net>
Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
Ray Mansfield wrote:
> In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of flight
or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here?
Ray,
If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper
fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't
know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper
lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to flare line ends
is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum. This causes
cracks to form.
You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas. The
aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion. It also
"work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age. You may
simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues. During my commander
restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the
airplane for these reasons. I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all
your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure
they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing.
If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can
lead to rapid fatigue cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch
bright and look for corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure.
Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something
coming loose) and address those areas immediately. It's all just part of
being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP
<http://www.aeroelectric.com/> www.homebuip;
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/> &n==============
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
<http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com <http://www.buildersbooks.com/>
">www.buildersbooks.com
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">www.homebuilthelp.com <http://www.homebuilthelp.com/>
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Subject: | Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems |
Aluminum is just fine as a replacement. After all original lasted 40+ yea
rs!!
-----Original Message-----
From: nico css <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 3:07 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
Tylor,
Aluminum is 5 times heavier than SS? I guess wall-thickness will have some
thing to do with it, right?
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li
st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. per
foot.
300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty wei
ght.
:)
Tylor Hall
On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote:
Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol. The failure of the line in the baggage
compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole at the
point that it was chafing against an adjacent line. The second failure
shortly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing root and
just dumped the fluid outside along the fuselage. That was the one due
to an improper flare. The mechanic showed it to me.
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
In addition to the last failure two years before that the line entering th
e baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point
and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which dissolved all th
e insulation on most of the wires. I had to replace almost all the wires
in the bundle. Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bund
le in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected from any other lea
ks that may occur in the future.
Tom
Formally C-GISS
680FLP (Mr.RPM)
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald Falik
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to cha
fing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in
the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just bey
ond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous
repair.
Don
From: Chris <cschuerm@cox.net>
Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems
Ray Mansfield wrote:
> In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of fligh
t or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here?
Ray,
If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper fab
rication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't
know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper
lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to flare line
ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum. This
causes cracks to form.
You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas.
The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion. It al
so "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age. You
may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues. During my commander re
storation, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the
airplane for these reasons. I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all
your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure
they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing
. If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that
can lead to rapid fatigue cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotc
h bright and look for corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure.
Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to somethin
g coming loose) and address those areas immediately. It's all just part
of being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP
www.homebuip; &n============
==
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
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ow target=_blank>http://htt===============
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