---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/15/09: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:17 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Chris) 2. 06:48 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Donald Falik) 3. 07:01 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Tom Fisher) 4. 07:22 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Tylor Hall) 5. 07:56 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Chris) 6. 08:44 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (yourtcfg@aol.com) 7. 08:47 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Tylor Hall) 8. 09:12 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Donald Falik) 9. 09:34 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Tylor Hall) 10. 10:35 AM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Chris) 11. 12:19 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Brock Lorber) 12. 12:52 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Tylor Hall) 13. 01:49 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Chris) 14. 03:08 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (nico css) 15. 03:33 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (Tylor Hall) 16. 06:20 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (nico css) 17. 06:53 PM - Re: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems (yourtcfg@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:18 AM PST US From: Chris Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Ray Mansfield wrote: > In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of > flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here? Ray, If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum. This causes cracks to form. You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas. The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion. It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age. You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues. During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing. If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas immediately. It's all just part of being the care-taker of a complex old airframe. good luck, chris ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:56 AM PST US From: Donald Falik Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems I can relate a similar issue with my 500S.- I had one line fail due to ch afing in the baggage area.- Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment.- Shortly thereafter another line failed just be yond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous r epair.=0ADon=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Chris < cschuerm@cox.net>=0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM=0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line t>=0A=0ARay Mansfield wrote:=0A> In other words, is this going to be a prob lem in the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have e xperience here?=0A=0ARay,=0AIf the line failed right at the flare, it was p robably due to improper fabrication.- I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a differen t flare angle than copper lines.- The tool you'll find at your local hard ware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an ang le for aluminum.- This causes cracks to form.=0AYou also mentioned that y ou've been repairing corrosion in other areas.- The aluminum used for air craft lines is fairly prone to corrosion.- It also "work hardens" from vi bration and becomes more brittle with age.- You may simply be dealing wit h aging aircraft issues.- During my commander restoration, we ended up ha ving to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons .- I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especia lly the ones exposed in the nacelles.- Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing.- If the lines are allo wed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigu e cracking.- Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for co rrosion pitting.- Even small pits lead to failure.- Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and ad dress those areas immediately.- It's all just part of being the care-taker of a complex old airframe.=0A=0Agood luck,=0Achris - - - - - - - - - - - - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. =========================0A ==================== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:02 AM PST US From: "Tom Fisher" Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems In addition to the last failure two years before that the line entering the baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which dissolved all the insulation on most of the wires. I had to replace almost all the wires in the bundle. Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that may occur in the future. Tom Formally C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM) ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Falik To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to chafing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just beyond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair. Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: Chris To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Ray Mansfield wrote: > In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here? Ray, If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum. This causes cracks to form. You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas. The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion. It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age. You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues. During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing. If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas immediately. It's all just part of being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP www.homebuip; &n============== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:06 AM PST US From: Tylor Hall Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems I am surprised to find out that the hydraulic lines in a aero commander are aluminum. I would have thought that 1000psi to 3000psi lines would be steel or SS. I manufacturer equipment that runs in this pressure range and we always use SS 1/4" tubing and compression fittings. It is easy to work, bends will with a tubing bender, would resist corrosion and lots of other good features. Would it be a big deal with the FAA to change to SS tubing? I am not an A&P. Tylor Hall On Nov 15, 2009, at 7:32 AM, Donald Falik wrote: > I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to chafing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just beyond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair. > Don > > From: Chris > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems > > > Ray Mansfield wrote: > > In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here? > > Ray, > If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum. This causes cracks to form. > You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas. The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion. It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age. You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues. During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing. If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas immediately. It's all just part of being the care-talectricwww.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP www.homebuip; &n============= = > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:40 AM PST US From: Chris Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Tylor Hall wrote: > I am surprised to find out that the hydraulic lines in a aero > commander are aluminum. I would have thought that 1000psi to 3000psi > lines would be steel or SS. I think I just detected Old Bob cringe at the thought of adding a couple hundred pounds of weight to an airplane :-) Stainless and carbon steel are both occasionally used, but aluminum is typical for light GA aircraft. Converting a Commander to all stainless lines would add an enormous amount of weight. chris ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:01 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems From: yourtcfg@aol.com The "hard lines" in all the Commanders are becoming the number one hyd iss ue. Inspect all of them and dont kid yourself. If they have any corrosio n, change them out. ALSO!!You landed with no brakes or steering and pulled it off, good on you ! It is not necessary do that. PLEASE, PLEASE EVERYONE, LISTEN UP. AS SO ON AS THE ENGINS ARE RUNNING PULL THE AUX HYD CIRCUIT BREAKER. DOING THIS ASSURES THAT THERE WILL BE ENOUGH FLUID FOR BRAKES AND STEERING. PLEASE, LETS STOP BEING STUBBORN ABOUT THIS BEFORE ANOTHER AIRPLANE IS LOST!! Th anks and good job with the landing!! jb -----Original Message----- From: Ray Mansfield Sent: Sat, Nov 14, 2009 5:42 pm Subject: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Hello, Had a small hydraulic line in the left wheel well break a while back. Had to land with no brakes, flaps, or steering. Got that fixed. Flew plane to the A&P location for an annual. Test flight after the annual, hydraul ic leak in either the up or down line to the right main gear, actual line hasn't been isolated yet. My question...both hydraulic lines, on differe nt side of the plane (comletely different lines also) have broken within 2 hours of flying time. Is there any hydraulic line history or trend for Commanders whereby hydraulic lines start to fail at the same time. In ot her words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of flight or ne xt years of flight. Does anyone have experience here? Had to have new engine mounts and wastegates replaced during the annual. Paul Gendron in Ft Lauderdale, FL did a good job with the work. Corrosi on on the mounts and manual wastegates were out of shape and quite thin at the elbows. Plane has been down over 4 months and now this hydraulic li ne problem. Ray Mansfield N91ES 850-217-5185 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:18 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems From: Tylor Hall We save a whole bunch when we go to modern electronics. SS tubing is not that heavy. I will go look it up. There is a question. How much tubing is in a Twin Commander? How much tubing can we remove when the oil pressure and fuel pressure lines come out and are replace with electrical remote sensors? Tylor Hall On Nov 15, 2009, at 8:55 AM, Chris wrote: > > Tylor Hall wrote: >> I am surprised to find out that the hydraulic lines in a aero commander are aluminum. I would have thought that 1000psi to 3000psi lines would be steel or SS. > > I think I just detected Old Bob cringe at the thought of adding a couple hundred pounds of weight to an airplane :-) > Stainless and carbon steel are both occasionally used, but aluminum is typical for light GA aircraft. Converting a Commander to all stainless lines would add an enormous amount of weight. > chris > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:37 AM PST US From: Donald Falik Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol.- The failure of the line in the baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole at the po int that it was chafing against an adjacent line.- The second failure sho rtly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing root and just d umped the fluid outside along the fuselage.- That was the one due to an i mproper flare.- The mechanic showed it to me.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________ ___________________=0AFrom: Tom Fisher =0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM=0A Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems=0A=0A=0AIn a ddition to the last failure two years before that the line entering the bag gage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pis sed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle-which dissolved all the insul ation on most of the wires.- I had to replace almost all the wires in the bundle.- Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in a-Skydrol proof-sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that may occur in the future.=0A-=0ATom=0AFormally C-GISS=0A680FLP (Mr.RP M)=0A----- Original Message ----- =0A>From: Donald Falik =0A>To: commander- list@matronics.com =0A>Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems=0A>=0A>=0A>I can rela te a similar issue with my 500S.- I had one line fail due to chafing in t he baggage area.- Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in the bagga ge compartment.- Shortly thereafter another line failed just beyond the r epaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair.=0A> Don=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Chris =0A>To: commander-list@matronics.com=0A>Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line p t>=0A>=0A>Ray Mansfield wrote:=0A>> In other words, is this going to be a p roblem in the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone hav e experience here?=0A>=0A>Ray,=0A>If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper fabrication.- I've seen many cases where so meone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a di fferent flare angle than copper lines.- The tool you'll find at your loca l hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum.- This causes cracks to form.=0A>You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas.- The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion.- It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age.- You may simply be deal ing with aging aircraft issues.- During my commander restoration, we ende d up having to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons.- I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles.- Make sure they are well sup ported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing.- If the lines a re allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking.- Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting.- Even small pits lead to failure.- Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas immediately.- It's all just part of being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP www.homebuip; - - - - - - - - - - &n====== ==========0A>=0A>=0A>=0A> >href="http://www.buildersboo ks.com">www.buildersbooks.com >href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.ho mebuilthelp.com >href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www. matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">h ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matro nics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>href="http://www == ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:34:35 AM PST US From: Tylor Hall Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. per foot. 300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty weight. :) Tylor Hall On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote: > Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol. The failure of the line in the baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole at the point that it was chafing against an adjacent line. The second failure shortly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing root and just dumped the fluid outside along the fuselage. That was the one due to an improper flare. The mechanic showed it to me. > > From: Tom Fisher > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems > > In addition to the last failure two years before that the line entering the baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which dissolved all the insulation on most of the wires. I had to replace almost all the wires in the bundle. Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that may occur in the future. > > Tom > Formally C-GISS > 680FLP (Mr.RPM) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Donald Falik > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems > > I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to chafing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just beyond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair. > Don > > From: Chris > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM > Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems > > > Ray Mansfield wrote: > > In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here? > > Ray, > If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum. This causes cracks to form. > You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas. The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion. It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age. You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues. During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing. If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas immediately. It's all just part of being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP www.homebuip; &n============= = > > > > > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http ://forums.matronics.com > > www.aerow.buildersbooks.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.comhttp://www.matronronics.com/Navigator ?Commander-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://htt================ ======= > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:49 AM PST US From: Chris Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Tylor Hall wrote: > SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. > per foot. Tylor, Can you provide a reference for those numbers please? My materials quick reference guide shows that stainless tube is aprox. three times *heavier* than aluminum. chris ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:59 PM PST US Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems From: "Brock Lorber" Two charts that show up in a quick search: http://www.webcoindustries.com/tubing/stainless/weight.cfm http://www.airpartsinc.com/products/Aluminum-tubing-round-6061-t6.htm Apples to oranges, but similar OD and thickness (1/4" and .035) gives .028 lbs/ft for aluminum and .082 for stainless. -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Chris Sent: Sun 11/15/2009 10:34 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Tylor Hall wrote: > SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. > per foot. Tylor, Can you provide a reference for those numbers please? My materials quick reference guide shows that stainless tube is aprox. three times *heavier* than aluminum. chris ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:52:07 PM PST US From: Tylor Hall Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-01-153-scs.pdf 6061 is a medium strength alloy used for most general-purpose applications. it is more corrosion-resistant than 2024. It is also easier to weld than 2024. 2024 is a high-strength alloy most often used in aerospace applications. It has a yield strength that is roughly 10 percent higher and an ultimate strength of roughly 50 percent higher than 6061. I got this quote off Onlinemetals.com. I did not find a difference in the weight of 6061 VS 2024. Does any one have the right alloy? Looks like the 2024 is the aerospace version? Chris or JimBob, could an owner substitute SS for Alum? I buy it in 20' lengths. Tylor Hall > > Two charts that show up in a quick search: > > http://www.webcoindustries.com/tubing/stainless/weight.cfm > http://www.airpartsinc.com/products/Aluminum-tubing-round-6061-t6.htm > > Apples to oranges, but similar OD and thickness (1/4" and .035) gives .028 lbs/ft for aluminum and .082 for stainless. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Chris > Sent: Sun 11/15/2009 10:34 AM > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems > > > Tylor Hall wrote: >> SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. >> per foot. > > Tylor, > Can you provide a reference for those numbers please? My materials > quick reference guide shows that stainless tube is aprox. three times > *heavier* than aluminum. > > chris > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:48 PM PST US From: Chris Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Tylor Hall wrote: > > I did not find a difference in the weight of 6061 VS 2024. Does any > one have the right alloy? Looks like the 2024 is the aerospace > version? Chris or JimBob, could an owner substitute SS for Alum? Tylor, A lot of my books are still packed in boxes from moving so I don't have much definitive information available. I checked AC43.13 and it doesn't mention anything about substitution. Actually, the version I have doesn't mention stainless at all although I know there is an aircraft approved 316L SS tube. There are several different alloys used for alum. 3003-0 is used for low pressure applications (mainly instrument stuff). 5052-0 is medium pressure (hydraulic, fuel, oil). I think the high pressure apps used 2024-T3 (which is a typical alloy for aircraft structures and skin) For my two cents, I'd replace aluminum with aluminum. If you're in a corrosive environment, paint the tubes with zinc chromate. chris ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:16 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Tylor, Aluminum is 5 times heavier than SS? I guess wall-thickness will have something to do with it, right? Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:23 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. per foot. 300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty weight. :) Tylor Hall On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote: Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol. The failure of the line in the baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole at the point that it was chafing against an adjacent line. The second failure shortly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing root and just dumped the fluid outside along the fuselage. That was the one due to an improper flare. The mechanic showed it to me. _____ From: Tom Fisher Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems In addition to the last failure two years before that the line entering the baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which dissolved all the insulation on most of the wires. I had to replace almost all the wires in the bundle. Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that may occur in the future. Tom Formally C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM) ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Falik Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to chafing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just beyond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair. Don _____ From: Chris Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Ray Mansfield wrote: > In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here? Ray, If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum. This causes cracks to form. You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas. The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion. It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age. You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues. During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing. If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas immediately. It's all just part of being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP www.homebuip; &n============== href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.ma tronics.com www.aerow.buildersbooks.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.comhttp://www.matronronics.com/Navigator?Com mander-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://htt======================= color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:06 PM PST US From: Tylor Hall Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems NICO, NO, SS is twice the weight per foot as Aluminum. .080 VS .0453 Typo error. Tylor Hall On Nov 15, 2009, at 4:07 PM, nico css wrote: > Tylor, > Aluminum is 5 times heavier than SS? I guess wall-thickness will have something to do with it, right? > Nico > > > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall > Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:23 AM > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems > > SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. per foot. > 300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty weight. > :) > Tylor Hall > > On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote: > >> Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol. The failure of the line in the baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole at the point that it was chafing against an adjacent line. The second failure shortly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing root and just dumped the fluid outside along the fuselage. That was the one due to an improper flare. The mechanic showed it to me. >> >> From: Tom Fisher >> To: commander-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM >> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems >> >> In addition to the last failure two years before that the line entering the baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which dissolved all the insulation on most of the wires. I had to replace almost all the wires in the bundle. Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that may occur in the future. >> >> Tom >> Formally C-GISS >> 680FLP (Mr.RPM) >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Donald Falik >> To: commander-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM >> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems >> >> I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to chafing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just beyond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair. >> Don >> >> From: Chris >> To: commander-list@matronics.com >> Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM >> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems >> >> >> Ray Mansfield wrote: >> > In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here? >> >> Ray, >> If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum. This causes cracks to form. >> You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas. The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion. It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age. You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues. During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing. If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas immediately. It's all just part of being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP www.homebuip; &n============= = >> >> >> >> >> >> href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com >> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com >> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http ://forums.matronics.com >> >> www.aerow.buildersbooks.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.comhttp://www.matronronics.com/Navigator ?Commander-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://htt================ ======= >> >> >> >> color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">www.aeroelectric.com >> href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com >> href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com >> href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution >> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:10 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems OK, thanks, Tylor. _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems NICO, NO, SS is twice the weight per foot as Aluminum. .080 VS .0453 Typo error. Tylor Hall On Nov 15, 2009, at 4:07 PM, nico css wrote: Tylor, Aluminum is 5 times heavier than SS? I guess wall-thickness will have something to do with it, right? Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:23 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. per foot. 300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty weight. :) Tylor Hall On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote: Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol. The failure of the line in the baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole at the point that it was chafing against an adjacent line. The second failure shortly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing root and just dumped the fluid outside along the fuselage. That was the one due to an improper flare. The mechanic showed it to me. _____ From: Tom Fisher Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems In addition to the last failure two years before that the line entering the baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which dissolved all the insulation on most of the wires. I had to replace almost all the wires in the bundle. Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bundle in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected from any other leaks that may occur in the future. Tom Formally C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM) ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Falik Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to chafing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just beyond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair. Don _____ From: Chris Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Ray Mansfield wrote: > In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of flight or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here? Ray, If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper fabrication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum. This causes cracks to form. You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas. The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion. It also "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age. You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues. During my commander restoration, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing. If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotch bright and look for corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to something coming loose) and address those areas immediately. It's all just part of being the care-talectric www.aeroelttp://www.buildersbooks.com/" tHELP www.homebuip; &n============== href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com ">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com ">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Commander-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com ">http://forums.matronics.com www.aerow.buildersbooks.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.buildersbooks.comhttp://www.matronronics.com/Navigator?Com mander-List" rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://htt======================= color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contri bution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems From: yourtcfg@aol.com Aluminum is just fine as a replacement. After all original lasted 40+ yea rs!! -----Original Message----- From: nico css Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 3:07 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Tylor, Aluminum is 5 times heavier than SS? I guess wall-thickness will have some thing to do with it, right? Nico From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:23 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems SS 1/4" tubing is 0.08 lbs per foot, and Alum 1/4" tubing is 0.453 lb. per foot. 300 feet of tubing exchanged out would be 13.50 lb. added to the empty wei ght. :) Tylor Hall On Nov 15, 2009, at 10:12 AM, Donald Falik wrote: Thank goodness it wasn't Skydrol. The failure of the line in the baggage compartment was difficult to find because it was just a pin hole at the point that it was chafing against an adjacent line. The second failure shortly thereafter was out side of the compartment in the wing root and just dumped the fluid outside along the fuselage. That was the one due to an improper flare. The mechanic showed it to me. From: Tom Fisher Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 10:00:17 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems In addition to the last failure two years before that the line entering th e baggage compartment from the right wing root ruptured at a chaff point and pissed Skydrol all over the main wiring bundle which dissolved all th e insulation on most of the wires. I had to replace almost all the wires in the bundle. Once that was done and paid for I wrapped the entire bund le in a Skydrol proof sheath so they would be protected from any other lea ks that may occur in the future. Tom Formally C-GISS 680FLP (Mr.RPM) ----- Original Message ----- From: Donald Falik Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 6:32 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems I can relate a similar issue with my 500S. I had one line fail due to cha fing in the baggage area. Boy was that a mess when the fluid erupted in the baggage compartment. Shortly thereafter another line failed just bey ond the repaired one and it was due to an improper flare from a previous repair. Don From: Chris Sent: Sun, November 15, 2009 9:15:52 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC-680FLP Hydraulic line problems Ray Mansfield wrote: > In other words, is this going to be a problem in the next hours of fligh t or next years of flight. Does anyone have experience here? Ray, If the line failed right at the flare, it was probably due to improper fab rication. I've seen many cases where someone has made a line and didn't know that aircraft aluminum lines use a different flare angle than copper lines. The tool you'll find at your local hardware store to flare line ends is for copper only and makes too sharp an angle for aluminum. This causes cracks to form. You also mentioned that you've been repairing corrosion in other areas. The aluminum used for aircraft lines is fairly prone to corrosion. It al so "work hardens" from vibration and becomes more brittle with age. You may simply be dealing with aging aircraft issues. During my commander re storation, we ended up having to replace virtually every hard line in the airplane for these reasons. I'd suggest a very careful inspection of all your hard lines - especially the ones exposed in the nacelles. Make sure they are well supported and that the adel clamps are not loose or missing . If the lines are allowed to vibrate due to old, worn-out supports, that can lead to rapid fatigue cracking. Clean the lines carefully with scotc h bright and look for corrosion pitting. Even small pits lead to failure. Look for any areas where the lines are chaffing (usually due to somethin g coming loose) and address those areas immediately. 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