---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/08/10: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:49 AM - Re: Trace Engines LP (TRACE) 2. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: Trace Engines LP (Don Girod) 3. 01:12 PM - Re: Re: Trace Engines LP (nico css) 4. 07:39 PM - Re: Re: Trace Engines LP (BillLeff1@aol.com) 5. 08:48 PM - Re: Re: Trace Engines LP (Tylor Hall) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:50 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP From: "TRACE" I have enjoyed reading you forum. I have some input to add to clear up some inaccuracies I have read. This is not only from TRACEs point of view but as an engine guy as well. 1.)TRACE builds an FAA fully certified 600HP, water cooled engine. We have a 750HP engine that that is in validation testing with electronic fuel injection and ignition. We are not really competing with X-Cat products, though we can build custom engines to the right application. 2.)Specs on the 685 Commander that was converted to Orenda engines can be found at www.mrrpm.com There is rate of climb and true air speed information that shows excellent performance. I know Dick very well and these are actual numbers. 3.) Profound vibration issues are unfounded. The engine has been designed with a unique firing order to reduce torsional vibration as much as possible. The firing order is not similar to any automotive firing order. The balance spec for the entire rotating system (crank, con rods and pistons) is far more precise than an automotive application to again minimize any vibration. 4.)Higher engine RPM is not ideal as it effect propeller selection. The TRACE engine runs 4400rpm at the crank at full power, which translates into 2057rpm at the prop flange on the reduction gearbox. This allows large range of propeller usage. The largest prop we use a 106 three bladed McCauley. 5.)Weight on any system is of concern. TRACE has several programs in development and weight is always a consideration along with proper balance. One is the use of MT composite pros which weigh in at 45lbs compared to a standard prop at 120lbs. Positioning of the accessories is also crucial. 6.)Cylinder liners are not an issue. The key is the installation and making sure the steel cylinder liners are set in the aluminum block all the way. TRACE has a robust process that verifies that is done prior to final deck height machining. The steel sleeves are cooled in liquid nitrogen and installed into the aluminum block which is heated in a furnace. The sleeves are then retained in position while they cool to prevent any movement. The end result is an interference fit that does not allow movement. These liners can be bored to 0.010, 0.020 or 0.030 at overhauls if required. 7.) it was never going to be cheap, compared to a good old Lycoming or Continental New technology is never cheaper especially when it is a vast improvement over air cooled engines. The performance isnt even comparable with TRACE building 600hp engines and developing a same cubic inch engine that produces 750hp. There are great advantages in new technology such as the accessory gear box and reduction gear box which are serious advancements in engineering specifically for aviation. Essentially you get piston powered operating costs with turbine performance. You dont get that with either Lycoming or Continental. 8.) A 350 Chevy is a robust engine for a hot rod but not for an aircraft. The reasoning for this is simple. The duty or load cycle of the engine is what drives how robust the engine design has to be. A 350 Chevy operates typically at about 30% of max horsepower its capable of producing when driving around town or the highway. In aviation, an engine typically runs 75% to 100%, which creates more horsepower and corresponds directly to lead generation for example. The cooling capability (volumetric flowrate) of a typical 350 is tripled with the TRACE engine. The cooling scheme is also much different with the coolant coming into each cylinder head and flowing evenly through the block, ultimately being pumped out at the center of the engine on both sides. This cooling scheme on a TRACE engine is unique to our engine and the high output nature of aviation use. It is a far superior thermally balanced system that automotive use. As I stated before, TRACE has an intensely tighter balance specification on all rotating components and unique firing order, so torsional vibration wont be an issue. The high loading on the engine also results in higher stress on engine components. TRACE has six bolt main caps, where the best automotive engines typically has four bolt main caps. Overall the precision of machined components for aviation use is also more tightly tolerance and controlled which produces a better overall system as a whole. Considering all of these factors its not really a surprise that all of this innovation and detail to quality results in a higher price than automotive engines when there is so much more that goes into a TRACE engine. We wont even mention the liability insurance related to aviation component and aviation production. I think I covered most the issues brought up in these postings. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me with any specific issues or interest you. TRACE is interested in closing an STC for Commanders. I can be reached at david@traceengines.com Thanks, David Czarnecki Chief Operating Officer TRACE Engines, L.P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293524#293524 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:58 AM PST US From: "Don Girod" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP Thanks for the article David, I enjoyed the learning experience. Don -------------------------------------------------- From: "TRACE" Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 1:49 PM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP > > I have enjoyed reading you forum. I have some input to add to clear up > some inaccuracies I have read. This is not only from TRACE?Ts point of > view but as an engine guy as well. > > 1.)TRACE builds an FAA fully certified 600HP, water cooled engine. We > have a 750HP engine that that is in validation testing with electronic > fuel injection and ignition. We are not really competing with X-Cat > products, though we can build custom engines to the right application. > > 2.)Specs on the 685 Commander that was converted to Orenda engines can be > found at www.mrrpm.com There is rate of climb and true air speed > information that shows excellent performance. I know Dick very well and > these are actual numbers. > > 3.) ?oProfound vibration issues? are unfounded. The engine has been > designed with a unique firing order to reduce torsional vibration as much > as possible. The firing order is not similar to any automotive firing > order. The balance spec for the entire rotating system (crank, con rods > and pistons) is far more precise than an automotive application to again > minimize any vibration. > > 4.)Higher engine RPM is not ideal as it effect propeller selection. The > TRACE engine runs 4400rpm at the crank at full power, which translates > into 2057rpm at the prop flange on the reduction gearbox. This allows > large range of propeller usage. The largest prop we use a 106? three > bladed McCauley. > > 5.)Weight on any system is of concern. TRACE has several programs in > development and weight is always a consideration along with proper > balance. One is the use of MT composite pros which weigh in at 45lbs > compared to a standard prop at 120lbs. Positioning of the accessories is > also crucial. > > 6.)Cylinder liners are not an issue. The key is the installation and > making sure the steel cylinder liners are set in the aluminum block all > the way. TRACE has a robust process that verifies that is done prior to > final deck height machining. The steel sleeves are cooled in liquid > nitrogen and installed into the aluminum block which is heated in a > furnace. The sleeves are then retained in position while they cool to > prevent any movement. The end result is an interference fit that does not > allow movement. These liners can be bored to 0.010?, 0.020? or > 0.030? at overhauls if required. > > 7.) ?o?it was never going to be cheap, compared to a good old Lycoming > or Continental?? New technology is never cheaper especially when it > is a vast improvement over air cooled engines. The performance isn?Tt > even comparable with TRACE building 600hp engines and developing a same > cubic inch engine that produces 750hp. There are great advantages in new > technology such as the accessory gear box and reduction gear box which are > serious advancements in engineering specifically for aviation. > Essentially you get piston powered operating costs with turbine > performance. You don?Tt get that with either Lycoming or Continental. > > 8.) A 350 Chevy is a robust engine for a hot rod but not for an aircraft. > The reasoning for this is simple. The duty or load cycle of the engine > is what drives how robust the engine design has to be. A 350 Chevy > operates typically at about 30% of max horsepower its capable of producing > when driving around town or the highway. In aviation, an engine typically > runs 75% to 100%, which creates more horsepower and corresponds directly > to lead generation for example. The cooling capability (volumetric > flowrate) of a typical 350 is tripled with the TRACE engine. The cooling > scheme is also much different with the coolant coming into each cylinder > head and flowing evenly through the block, ultimately being pumped out at > the center of the engine on both sides. This cooling scheme on a TRACE > engine is unique to our engine and the high output nature of aviation use. > It is a far superior thermally balanced system that automotive use. As I > stated before, TRACE has an intensely ! > tighter balance specification on all rotating components and unique firing > order, so torsional vibration won?Tt be an issue. The high loading on > the engine also results in higher stress on engine components. TRACE has > six bolt main caps, where the best automotive engines typically has four > bolt main caps. Overall the precision of machined components for aviation > use is also more tightly tolerance and controlled which produces a better > overall system as a whole. Considering all of these factors it?Ts not > really a surprise that all of this innovation and detail to quality > results in a higher price than automotive engines when there is so much > more that goes into a TRACE engine. We won?Tt even mention the liability > insurance related to aviation component and aviation production. > I think I covered most the issues brought up in these postings. If you > have any questions, feel free to contact me with any specific issues or > interest you. TRACE is interested in closing an STC for Commanders. I > can be reached at david@traceengines.com > > Thanks, > David Czarnecki > Chief Operating Officer > TRACE Engines, L.P. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293524#293524 > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > 14:32:00 > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:14 PM PST US From: "nico css" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP Hi David: Thank you for that informative piece. It's not often that we get the man on the spot to give us the information from the source. However, now that we have you on the line, we are going to tap your brain a little bit, which is a privilege. There is something that still doesn't click well, which is the firing order thing. The older V8's had a firing order of 1 5 4 8 6 3 7 2, which, if you look closely, fires on alternate banks except 8 and 6. If, and that's the gray area which you may be able to fill in, firing 6 and 8 successively on the same bank is the culprit causing torsional vibration, how did Trace solve the problem without creating a new crank with different crank (throw) angles, which would involve new counterweight technology, and perhaps cause a whole host of other problems? Wouldn't a dynamic coupler, like Diamond is using with the new Mercedes diesels, fitted between the crank and the reduction box have been a more effective solution? Or is the new firing order also causing a longer TBO? Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TRACE Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP I have enjoyed reading you forum. I have some input to add to clear up some inaccuracies I have read. This is not only from TRACEs point of view but as an engine guy as well. 1.)TRACE builds an FAA fully certified 600HP, water cooled engine. We have a 750HP engine that that is in validation testing with electronic fuel injection and ignition. We are not really competing with X-Cat products, though we can build custom engines to the right application. 2.)Specs on the 685 Commander that was converted to Orenda engines can be found at www.mrrpm.com There is rate of climb and true air speed information that shows excellent performance. I know Dick very well and these are actual numbers. 3.) Profound vibration issues are unfounded. The engine has been designed with a unique firing order to reduce torsional vibration as much as possible. The firing order is not similar to any automotive firing order. The balance spec for the entire rotating system (crank, con rods and pistons) is far more precise than an automotive application to again minimize any vibration. 4.)Higher engine RPM is not ideal as it effect propeller selection. The TRACE engine runs 4400rpm at the crank at full power, which translates into 2057rpm at the prop flange on the reduction gearbox. This allows large range of propeller usage. The largest prop we use a 106 three bladed McCauley. 5.)Weight on any system is of concern. TRACE has several programs in development and weight is always a consideration along with proper balance. One is the use of MT composite pros which weigh in at 45lbs compared to a standard prop at 120lbs. Positioning of the accessories is also crucial. 6.)Cylinder liners are not an issue. The key is the installation and making sure the steel cylinder liners are set in the aluminum block all the way. TRACE has a robust process that verifies that is done prior to final deck height machining. The steel sleeves are cooled in liquid nitrogen and installed into the aluminum block which is heated in a furnace. The sleeves are then retained in position while they cool to prevent any movement. The end result is an interference fit that does not allow movement. These liners can be bored to 0.010, 0.020 or 0.030 at overhauls if required. 7.) it was never going to be cheap, compared to a good old Lycoming or Continental New technology is never cheaper especially when it is a vast improvement over air cooled engines. The performance isnt even comparable with TRACE building 600hp engines and developing a same cubic inch engine that produces 750hp. There are great advantages in new technology such as the accessory gear box and reduction gear box which are serious advancements in engineering specifically for aviation. Essentially you get piston powered operating costs with turbine performance. You dont get that with either Lycoming or Continental. 8.) A 350 Chevy is a robust engine for a hot rod but not for an aircraft. The reasoning for this is simple. The duty or load cycle of the engine is what drives how robust the engine design has to be. A 350 Chevy operates typically at about 30% of max horsepower its capable of producing when driving around town or the highway. In aviation, an engine typically runs 75% to 100%, which creates more horsepower and corresponds directly to lead generation for example. The cooling capability (volumetric flowrate) of a typical 350 is tripled with the TRACE engine. The cooling scheme is also much different with the coolant coming into each cylinder head and flowing evenly through the block, ultimately being pumped out at the center of the engine on both sides. This cooling scheme on a TRACE engine is unique to our engine and the high output nature of aviation use. It is a far superior thermally balanced system that automotive use. As I stated before, TRACE has an intensely ! tighter balance specification on all rotating components and unique firing order, so torsional vibration wont be an issue. The high loading on the engine also results in higher stress on engine components. TRACE has six bolt main caps, where the best automotive engines typically has four bolt main caps. Overall the precision of machined components for aviation use is also more tightly tolerance and controlled which produces a better overall system as a whole. Considering all of these factors its not really a surprise that all of this innovation and detail to quality results in a higher price than automotive engines when there is so much more that goes into a TRACE engine. We wont even mention the liability insurance related to aviation component and aviation production. I think I covered most the issues brought up in these postings. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me with any specific issues or interest you. TRACE is interested in closing an STC for Commanders. I can be reached at david@traceengines.com Thanks, David Czarnecki Chief Operating Officer TRACE Engines, L.P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293524#293524 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:37 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP SGV5IGd1eXMsIEkgZmxldyB0aGUgZmlyc3QgdGVzdCBmbGlnaHRzIG9mIHRoZSBPcmVuZGEgNjg1 LCB5ZWEgdGhhdCBpcyBtZSAgCmluIHRoZSB2aWRlby4gSSB0aG91Z2h0IGlzIHdhcyBleHRyZW1l bHkgc21vb3RoLiBUaGVyZSB3YXMgYSBwcm9ibGVtIGF0IGlkbGUgCmJ1dCAgSSB1bmRlcnN0YW5k IHRoYXQgd2FzIGZpeGVkLiBJdCB3YXMgYSBwcm9ibGVtIGluIGZ1ZWwgbWV0ZXJpbmcuICBUaGUg IApiaWdnZXN0IHByb2JsZW0gb24gdGhlIGZpcnN0IGZsaWdodCB3YXMgaXQgaGFkIHRvbyBtdWNo IGNvb2xpbmchCiAKQmVzdCBvZiBsdWNrIHRvIFRyYWNlIEVuZ2luZXMuIEFueXRoaW5nIGNhbiBz dGFuZCBpbXByb3ZlbWVudCBidXQsIEkgdGhpbmcgIAp0aGV5IGhhZCBhIGdyZWF0IGVuZ2luZSB0 byBzdGFydCB3aXRoLiBCeSB0aGUgd2F5LCBteSA2MDBIUCBQcmF0dCAmIFdoaXRlbnkgCiB3ZWln aHMgODg1IGxicy4gVGhpbmsgd2hhdCBhIGxpZ2h0IHdlaWdodCBUcmFjZSAiT3JlbmRhIiB3b3Vs 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b21tYW5kZXItTGlzdApfLT0KXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KXy09ICAgLSBNQVRST05JQ1MgV0VCIEZPUlVNUyAgLQpf LT0gU2FtZSBncmVhdCBjb250ZW50IGFsc28gYXZhaWxhYmxlIHZpYSB0aGUgV2ViICBGb3J1bXMh Cl8tPQpfLT0gICAtLT4gIGh0dHA6Ly9mb3J1bXMubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQpfLT0KXy09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KXy09 ICAgLSBMaXN0IENvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbiBXZWIgU2l0ZSAgLQpfLT0gIFRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgeW91 ciBnZW5lcm91cyBzdXBwb3J0IQpfLT0gICAgICAgIC1NYXR0IERyYWxsZSwgTGlzdCBBZG1pbi4K Xy09ICAgLS0+ICBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uCl8tPT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09CgoK Cg= ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:48:22 PM PST US From: Tylor Hall Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Trace Engines LP Bill, I would hope it would keep running? :) Did I see a video of you landing on a road in Wi? David, Thank you for joining our merry group. You have a lot more detailed information than I could relate. I have always enjoyed listening to Dick talk about the engine development. I know total weight was a big thing with make it all work. The Thunder engine was just a start. The Orinda took it to the next step that was Certified . It appears that the Trace is a whole another higher level. I do not know or totally understand all the changes, but it sounds like real progress. We love hearing about any new developments. Bill, what would 750HP Trace do to your T-6? Would it become a T-7.5? Tylor Hall On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:29 PM, BillLeff1@aol.com wrote: > Hey guys, I flew the first test flights of the Orenda 685, yea that is me in the video. I thought is was extremely smooth. There was a problem at idle but I understand that was fixed. It was a problem in fuel metering. The biggest problem on the first flight was it had too much cooling! > > Best of luck to Trace Engines. Anything can stand improvement but, I thing they had a great engine to start with. By the way, my 600HP Pratt & Whiteny weighs 885 lbs. Think what a light weight Trace "Orenda" would do on my T-6! > > Bill Leff > > In a message dated 4/8/2010 1:50:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, david@traceengines.com writes: > > I have enjoyed reading you forum. I have some input to add to clear up some inaccuracies I have read. This is not only from TRACE=C3=A2=82 =AC=84=A2s point of view but as an engine guy as well. > > 1.)TRACE builds an FAA fully certified 600HP, water cooled engine. We have a 750HP engine that that is in validation testing with electronic fuel injection and ignition. We are not really competing with X-Cat products, though we can build custom engines to the right application. > > 2.)Specs on the 685 Commander that was converted to Orenda engines can be found at www.mrrpm.com There is rate of climb and true air speed information that shows excellent performance. I know Dick very well and these are actual numbers. > > 3.) =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Profound vibration issues=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D are unfounded. The engine has been designed with a unique firing order to reduce torsional vibration as much as possible. The firing order is not similar to any automotive firing order. The balance spec for the entire rotating system (crank, con rods and pistons) is far more precise than an automotive application to again minimize any vibration. > > 4.)Higher engine RPM is not ideal as it effect propeller selection. The TRACE engine runs 4400rpm at the crank at full power, which translates into 2057rpm at the prop flange on the reduction gearbox. This allows large range of propeller usage. The largest prop we use a 106=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D three bladed McCauley. > > 5.)Weight on any system is of concern. TRACE has several programs in development and weight is always a consideration along with proper balance. One is the use of MT composite pros which weigh in at 45lbs compared to a standard prop at 120lbs. Positioning of the accessories is also crucial. > > 6.)Cylinder liners are not an issue. The key is the installation and making sure the steel cylinder liners are set in the aluminum block all the way. TRACE has a robust process that verifies that is done prior to final deck height machining. The steel sleeves are cooled in liquid nitrogen and installed into the aluminum block which is heated in a furnace. The sleeves are then retained in position while they cool to prevent any movement. The end result is an interference fit that does not allow movement. These liners can be bored to 0.010=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D , 0.020=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D or 0.030=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D at overhauls if required. > > 7.) =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93=C3=A2=82=AC=C2it was never going to be cheap, compared to a good old Lycoming or Continental=C3=A2=82=AC=C2 =C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D New technology is never cheaper especially when it is a vast improvement over air cooled engines. The performance isn=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t even comparable with TRACE building 600hp engines and developing a same cubic inch engine that produces 750hp. There are great advantages in new technology such as the accessory gear box and reduction gear box which are serious advancements in engineering specifically for aviation. Essentially you get piston powered operating costs with turbine performance. You don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t get that with either Lycoming or Continental. > > 8.) A 350 Chevy is a robust engine for a hot rod but not for an aircraft. The reasoning for this is simple. The duty or load cycle of the engine is what drives how robust the engine design has to be. A 350 Chevy operates typically at about 30% of max horsepower its capable of producing when driving around town or the highway. In aviation, an engine typically runs 75% to 100%, which creates more horsepower and corresponds directly to lead generation for example. The cooling capability (volumetric flowrate) of a typical 350 is tripled with the TRACE engine. The cooling scheme is also much different with the coolant coming into each cylinder head and flowing evenly through the block, ultimately being pumped out at the center of the engine on both sides. This cooling scheme on a TRACE engine is unique to our engine and the high output nature of aviation use. It is a far superior thermally balanced system that automotive use. As I stated before, TRACE has an intensely tighter balance specification on all rotating components and unique firing order, so torsional vibration won=C3=A2=82 =AC=84=A2t be an issue. The high loading on the engine also results in higher stress on engine components. TRACE has six bolt main caps, where the best automotive engines typically has four bolt main caps. Overall the precision of machined components for aviation use is also more tightly tolerance and controlled which produces a better overall system as a whole. Considering all of these factors it=C3=A2=82=AC =84=A2s not really a surprise that all of this innovation and detail to quality results in a higher price than automotive engines when there is so much more that goes into a TRACE engine. We won=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 t even mention the liability insurance related to aviation component and aviation production. > I think I covered most the issues brought up in these postings. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me with any specific issues or interest you. TRACE is interested in closing an STC for Commanders. I can be reached at david@traceengines.com > > Thanks, > David Czarnecki > Chief Operating Officer > TRACE Engines, L.P. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=293524#293524===== ================ ======================= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======================= - List Contribution Web Site sp; > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.