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1. 09:49 PM - Re: Re: Trace Engines LP (BillLeff1@aol.com)
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| Subject: | Re: Trace Engines LP |
Yes that was me!
Bill leff
In a message dated 4/8/2010 11:48:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
tylorhall@mac.com writes:
Bill,
I would hope it would keep running?
:)
Did I see a video of you landing on a road in Wi?
David,
Thank you for joining our merry group. You have a lot more detailed
information than I could relate.
I have always enjoyed listening to Dick talk about the engine development
.
I know total weight was a big thing with make it all work.
The Thunder engine was just a start. The Orinda took it to the next step
that was Certified . It appears that the Trace is a whole another highe
r
level. I do not know or totally understand all the changes, but it sound
s
like real progress.
We love hearing about any new developments.
Bill, what would 750HP Trace do to your T-6? Would it become a T-7.5?
Tylor Hall
On Apr 8, 2010, at 8:29 PM, _BillLeff1@aol.com_ (mailto:BillLeff1@aol.com)
wrote:
Hey guys, I flew the first test flights of the Orenda 685, yea that is me
in the video. I thought is was extremely smooth. There was a problem at
idle but I understand that was fixed. It was a problem in fuel metering.
The
biggest problem on the first flight was it had too much cooling!
Best of luck to Trace Engines. Anything can stand improvement but, I thin
g
they had a great engine to start with. By the way, my 600HP Pratt &
Whiteny weighs 885 lbs. Think what a light weight Trace "Orenda" would do
on my
T-6!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/8/2010 1:50:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
_david@traceengines.com_ (mailto:david@traceengines.com) writes:
(mailto:david@traceengines.com) >
I have enjoyed reading you forum. I have some input to add to clear up
some inaccuracies I have read. This is not only from TRACE=C3=A2=82=AC
=84=A2s point of
view but as an engine guy as well.
1.)TRACE builds an FAA fully certified 600HP, water cooled engine. We
have a 750HP engine that that is in validation testing with electronic fu
el
injection and ignition. We are not really competing with X-Cat products,
though we can build custom engines to the right application.
2.)Specs on the 685 Commander that was converted to Orenda engines can be
found at _www.mrrpm.com_ (http://www.mrrpm.com/) There is rate of clim
b
and true air speed information that shows excellent performance. I know
Dick very well and these are actual numbers.
3.) =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93Profound vibration issues=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D
are unfounded. The engine has been
designed with a unique firing order to reduce torsional vibration as much
as
possible. The firing order is not similar to any automotive firing
order. The balance spec for the entire rotating system (crank, con rods
and
pistons) is far more precise than an automotive application to again mini
mize
any vibration.
4.)Higher engine RPM is not ideal as it effect propeller selection. The
TRACE engine runs 4400rpm at the crank at full power, which translates in
to
2057rpm at the prop flange on the reduction gearbox. This allows large
range of propeller usage. The largest prop we use a 106=C3=A2=82=AC
=C2=9D three bladed
McCauley.
5.)Weight on any system is of concern. TRACE has several programs in
development and weight is always a consideration along with proper balanc
e.
One is the use of MT composite pros which weigh in at 45lbs compared to
a
standard prop at 120lbs. Positioning of the accessories is also crucial.
6.)Cylinder liners are not an issue. The key is the installation and
making sure the steel cylinder liners are set in the aluminum block all
the
way. TRACE has a robust process that verifies that is done prior to fina
l
deck height machining. The steel sleeves are cooled in liquid nitrogen
and
installed into the aluminum block which is heated in a furnace. The slee
ves
are then retained in position while they cool to prevent any movement.
The end result is an interference fit that does not allow movement. Thes
e
liners can be bored to 0.010=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D, 0.020=C3=A2=82=AC=C2
=9D or 0.030=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D at overhauls if
required.
7.) =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93=C3=A2=82=AC=C2it was never going to be ch
eap, compared to a good old Lycoming
or Continental=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D New technology
is never cheaper especially when it
is a vast improvement over air cooled engines. The performance isn=C3=A2
=82=AC=84=A2t
even comparable with TRACE building 600hp engines and developing a same
cubic
inch engine that produces 750hp. There are great advantages in new
technology such as the accessory gear box and reduction gear box which ar
e
serious advancements in engineering specifically for aviation. Essential
ly you
get piston powered operating costs with turbine performance. You don=C3
=A2=82=AC=84=A2t
get that with either Lycoming or Continental.
8.) A 350 Chevy is a robust engine for a hot rod but not for an aircraft.
The reasoning for this is simple. The duty or load cycle of the engine
is what drives how robust the engine design has to be. A 350 Chevy
operates typically at about 30% of max horsepower its capable of producin
g when
driving around town or the highway. In aviation, an engine typically run
s
75% to 100%, which creates more horsepower and corresponds directly to le
ad
generation for example. The cooling capability (volumetric flowrate) of
a
typical 350 is tripled with the TRACE engine. The cooling scheme is als
o
much different with the coolant coming into each cylinder head and flowin
g
evenly through the block, ultimately being pumped out at the center of th
e
engine on both sides. This cooling scheme on a TRACE engine is unique to
our engine and the high output nature of aviation use. It is a far super
ior
thermally balanced system that automotive use. As I stated before, TRACE
has an intensely tighter balance specification on all rotating components
and unique firing order, so torsional vibration won=C3=A2=82=AC=84
=A2t be an issue. The
high loading on the engine also results in higher stress on engine
components. TRACE has six bolt main caps, where the best automotive engi
nes
typically has four bolt main caps. Overall the precision of machined com
ponents
for aviation use is also more tightly tolerance and controlled which
produces a better overall system as a whole. Considering all of these
factors it=C3=A2
=82=AC=84=A2s not really a surprise that all of this innovation and
detail to
quality results in a higher price than automotive engines when there is
so much
more that goes into a TRACE engine. We won=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t even
mention the liability
insurance related to aviation component and aviation production.
I think I covered most the issues brought up in these postings. If you
have any questions, feel free to contact me with any specific issues or
interest you. TRACE is interested in closing an STC for Commanders. I
can be
reached at _david@traceengines.com_ (mailto:david@traceengines.com)
Thanks,
David Czarnecki
Chief Operating Officer
TRACE Engines, L.P.
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