Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:57 AM - Simply the Best (Deneal Schilmeister (MacbookPro))
2. 04:39 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BillLeff1@aol.com)
3. 05:19 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (cybersuperstore)
4. 05:59 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (Chris)
5. 07:25 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (Jack B. Mills)
6. 07:53 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (lloyd silverman)
7. 09:25 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BobsV35B@aol.com)
8. 09:42 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BobsV35B@aol.com)
9. 10:02 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (Keith S. Gordon)
10. 10:22 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (craig kennedy)
11. 10:41 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (Keith S. Gordon)
12. 10:48 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com)
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Subject: | Re: Now Operating LOP |
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's )
and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander
manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way
goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have
little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it,
Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that
the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to
justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done
every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every
operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a
failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran
lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am
still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I
do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did
occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power
settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the
time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has
convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The
way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were
available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down
about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was
good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by
Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each
cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge
you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't
attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of
pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process
before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes:
Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been
sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping
all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent
cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times.
A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt
engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI
folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have
the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is
going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet?
The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to
replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual
time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a
big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so
far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date!
Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will
see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
____________________________________
From: cybersuperstore <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new
desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail
server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my
laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I
am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them
back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk
around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't
thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw
this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen
747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
____________________________________
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a
year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt
engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all
the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining
issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the
annual get together.
Craig
_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List)
_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
===================================
t
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
====================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ====================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Now Operating LOP |
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the
cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder
separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good
TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but
theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with
GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat"
on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin
to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming
down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BillLeff1@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's )
and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander
manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way
goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have
little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it,
Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that
the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify
the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done
every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know
every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was
a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran
lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am
still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do
have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did
occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power
settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at
the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years
has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution.
The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were
available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down
about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it
was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss
Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each
cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I
urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't
attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of
pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the
process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes:
Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting
out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all
the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork
access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip
to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are
running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and
they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM
CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on
pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea
of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace
the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time
with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big
help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far
has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a
lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more
action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
_____
From: cybersuperstore <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new
desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the
mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on
my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year
ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting
them back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk
around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't
thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw
this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen
747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig
kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a
year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt
engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the
problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues
and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the
annual get together.
Craig
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
t
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
===================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
===================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
===================================
t
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic
s.com/Navigator?Commander-List
===================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
===================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Now Operating LOP |
BillLeff1@aol.com wrote:
> As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for
> it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
Can you elaborate on that statement Bill? Given that LOP results in
lower temps and pressures, I can't see where the extra material comes
into play.
thanks
chris
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Now Operating LOP |
Nico,
Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which
squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty
well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been
on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a
difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or
air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port
configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate
from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head
temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower.
I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel
dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of
horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I
simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self.
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
From: cybersuperstore
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the
cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder
separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a
good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but
theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP
with GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more
meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the
gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the
temperatures not coming down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BillLeff1@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's
) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the
Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that
operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that
fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for
it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said
that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough
to justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done
every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know
every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That
was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We
never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and
am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but
I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of
peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did
occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low
power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed
no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the
last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have
good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern
engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the
airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side
with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by
Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each
cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done
so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If
you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with
a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a
believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes:
Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been
sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double
clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out
those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a
couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon
drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the
injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540.
Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI
dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in
the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50
degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to
replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues.
Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor
plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed
that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in
Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to
work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for
sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: cybersuperstore <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a
new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails
because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages
were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from
more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the
trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am
at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to
walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which
I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on.
Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain
that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig
kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored
for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running
again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a
great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to
tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure.
Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics.
comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========t
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=============
=======================ms.m
atronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com===========
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n========================
============
===========t
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=============
=======================ms.m
atronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com===========
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n========================
============
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics.
comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Now Operating LOP |
HI BILL, FUEL TO AIR MIXTURE IS IDEAL FOR COMBUSTION AT 15 TO 1 (FOUND
AT ROP). ONCE YOU GO LOP YOU WOULD HAVE TO ADD THROTLE TO GET THE SAME
ENGINE POWER AS ROP BECAUSE YOU ARE BELOW THE IDEAL IS A 15 TO 1 AIR TO
FUEL RATIO AT ROP.I DON'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD SAVE FUEL USING THE SAME
POWER (PERFORMANCE.THEREFORE .AIR SPEED ) LOP VS ROP.
THERE ARE OTHER ENGINE LIFE CONSIDERATONS.
I HOPE I HAV'NT CONFUSED ALL THE MANY HERESAY REASONS THAT HAVE BEEN
AROUND FOR A CENTURY, .
LLOYD
----- Original Message -----
From: cybersuperstore<mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to
the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each
cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would
sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI
suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from
working well LOP with GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more
meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the
gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the
temperatures not coming down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BillLeff1@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2
560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the
Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that
operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that
fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for
it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said
that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough
to justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has
done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have
know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown,
That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO.
We never ran lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it
and am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old,
but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side
of peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did
occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low
power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed
no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the
last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have
good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern
engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the
airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side
with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by
Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each
cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done
so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If
you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with
a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a
believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes:
Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend.
Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After
double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped.
Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after
being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5
dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial
in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a
IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and
the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has
anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running
them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need
to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues.
Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor
plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed
that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in
Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to
work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for
sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
From: cybersuperstore <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a
new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails
because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages
were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from
more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the
trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am
at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to
walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which
I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on.
Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain
that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig
kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H,
stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is
running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest
did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more
days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and
adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together.
Craig
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Commander-List>http://forums.matronics.com<http://forums.matr
onics.com/>http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com
/contribution>
===========t
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=============
=======================ms.m
atronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com===========
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n========================
============
===========t
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat
ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List=============
=======================ms.m
atronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com===========
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio
n========================
============
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics.
comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Commander-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 7
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|
Subject: | Re: Now Operating LOP |
Good Evening Bill,
I guess if you have that much experience with your engines and are happy
with what you have there is no need to change.
And I agree, operating at high power and Peak EGT is rarely a good idea. If
that is what the Commander folks recommend, I am surprised. Fifty rich
of peak EGT is about the hottest spot you could operate.
Personally, if I wanted to use seventy-five percent power or more, I would
run more like 150 to 200 rich of peak EGT. Once again, all of this assumes
good distribution, if the distribution is poor 150 to 200 rich is the
better compromise, but it ain't good!
However, any engine can be operated lean of peak if it has well balanced
fuel distribution. There are limits and there are conditions. There is
absolutely nothing about a Pratt and Whitney or a Curtiss Wright that makes
them capable of lean operations other than they have the means to get an even
distribution of fuel to each cylinder.
I have not ran any of the large geared Lycomings for many years, but they
told us then and tell us now that we can't hurt the engine with the mixture
control, so I always felt comfortable experimenting. When I found that I
had good distribution, I would often run on the lean side of best power. If
the power available was adequate for my needs, it not only saved fuel, but
the engines ran cooler and cleaner just like those Curtiss Wright engineers
said they would. Same thing goes for any engine. There is no magic and this
information is not new. Lindbergh used it and it worked well for him.
What is wrong with running cleaner and cooler?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/21/2010 6:40:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
BillLeff1@aol.com writes:
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's )
and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander
manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way
goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have
little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it,
Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said
that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to
justify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done
every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every
operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a
failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran
lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and
am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I
do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak
EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did
occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power
settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the
time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has
convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The
way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were
available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down
about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it
was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by
Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each
cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge
you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't
attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of
pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process
before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes:
Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been
sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping
all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent
cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times.
A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt
engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI
folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have
the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is
going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet?
The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to
replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual
time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a
big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane
so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date!
Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will
see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
____________________________________
From: cybersuperstore <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new
desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail
server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my
laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I
am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them
back into their respected folders while I am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk
around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't
thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw
this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen
747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
____________________________________
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a
year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt
engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all
the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining
issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the
annual get together.
Craig
_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List)
_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/)
_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
===================================
t
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
====================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ====================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
===================================
t
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
====================================
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ====================================
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
====================================
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(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
Message 8
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|
Subject: | Re: Now Operating LOP |
Good Evening Lloyd,
The 15 (Some folks say 16) to one ratio is the stoichiometric mixture, No
excess air and no excess fuel.
If we run richer than stoichiometric, that is by definition on the rich
side, If we run leaner than stoichiometric, that is, by definition on the lean
side.
You will get the same speed at the same horsepower if you are rich of peak
EGT or lean of peak EGT. As you state, it will require more manifold
pressure to get the same horsepower LOP as ROP so in that case you are correct.
However, It is possible under many conditions to get that same horsepower
at a different BSFC. The key to economical operation is to be able to
operate at or very close to Best BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) Best BSFC
is where all of the fuel that is being supplied has plenty of air to
combine with and there is extra air to be heated and provide more power per
pound of fuel.If we want to get the most power we can for each molecule of
oxygen available, we need to throw enough fuel at the fire such that every last
little bit of air gets burned. That is called Best Power. At best power,
we are burning a lot more fuel per horsepower than we would be if we were
running on the lean side of best power.
For most modern light plane engines, best BSFC occurs somewhere between
twenty degrees Fahrenheit lean of Peak EGT and eighty Degrees lean of peak
EGT, The higher powers require the greatest amount lean, but the engine may
not be able to provide that power due to cooling needs, At power settings of
65 per cent or so, best BSFC is close to thirty degrees F lean of peak EGT.
There is no one size fits all answer. You have to decide what it is you
want from the engine. If you wish to use high horsepower (above 65 to 70
percent power, you need to throw a LOT of fuel on the fire or the engine will
get hot. There are exceptions, but that is good ball park starting point.
As Always, It All Depends. Life is NOT simple.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 4/21/2010 9:56:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
LLOYDSSS11@msn.com writes:
HI BILL, FUEL TO AIR MIXTURE IS IDEAL FOR COMBUSTION AT 15 TO 1 (FOUND AT
ROP). ONCE YOU GO LOP YOU WOULD HAVE TO ADD THROTLE TO GET THE SAME ENGINE
POWER AS ROP BECAUSE YOU ARE BELOW THE IDEAL IS A 15 TO 1 AIR TO FUEL RATIO
AT ROP.I DON'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD SAVE FUEL USING THE SAME POWER
(PERFORMANCE.THEREFORE .AIR SPEED ) LOP VS ROP.
THERE ARE OTHER ENGINE LIFE CONSIDERATONS.
I HOPE I HAV'NT CONFUSED ALL THE MANY HERESAY REASONS THAT HAVE BEEN
AROUND FOR A CENTURY, .
LLOYD
----- Original Message -----
From: _cybersuperstore_ (mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com)
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the
cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder
separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO.
I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically,
what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more
meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon
pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not
coming down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
Message 9
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|
Subject: | Re: Now Operating LOP |
Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewh
ere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming
IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when ru
nning LoP.
When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air
Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we di
scussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs.
They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compens
ate for low lead AvGas.
The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubr
icated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premat
ure engine removal when running LoP.
Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different
than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's somet
hing to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of gr
een colored AvGas.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack B. Mills <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Nico,
Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirt
s directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomi
zed and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four
engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT fro
m cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is diffe
rent due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance
in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of
running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course
does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the
'80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine
was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts.
When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its
self.
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
From: cybersuperstore
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the
cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder sep
arately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good
TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretic
ally, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more mea
t" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon
pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not
coming down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li
st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's )
and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander
manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that
way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP ha
ve little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it,
Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said tha
t the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to jus
tify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done ev
ery overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know ever
y operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a
failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ra
n lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and
am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@
aol.com writes:
Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but
I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of
peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occ
asionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power
settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no ha
rm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last six
ty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good dis
tribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine
analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane
could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no
roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Cur
tiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cyl
inder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so,
I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If yo
u can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a
group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believ
er in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_
rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes:
Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been
sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double
clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns ou
t those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used
a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gal
lon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the
injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IG
O-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and
the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has
anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running
them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to re
place the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues.
Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor
plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed
that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Com
manders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to wo
rk but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sa
le, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new
desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because
the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were
already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from mo
re than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the
trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I
am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk
around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I
didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on.
Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certai
n that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-comm
ander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored fo
r over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again wi
th rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a gr
eat job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more da
ys to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun
and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get
together.
Craig
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
===========
t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
========================
===========
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
========================
===========
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
===========
========================
===========
t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
========================
===========
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Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Now Operating LOP |
Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info
for my IGO-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and
servo/distributor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't
without running rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by
just running ROP by 25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2
more $$$$$$$ overhauls. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising
amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also
noted. I like the idea, but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared
LYC's seem to dislike the method... I don't have a dog in the hunt
regarding the the proven LOP methodology, but betting my money has
proven to be more than I can afford!
Craig
________________________________
From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com>
Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 10:00:21 PM
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in
the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540
operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP.
When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight,
for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how
they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs.
They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for
low lead AvGas.
The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated
the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine
removal when running LoP.
Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than
the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider
if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack B. Mills <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Nico,
Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector
nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is
pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on
all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a
difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air
fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or
some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl.
I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much
cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of
figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When
I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed
mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it
couldn't hurt its self.
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
From: cybersuperstore
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating
LOP
Hi
Bill,
As someone who hasn't
yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still
wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's,
whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be
practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines
from working well LOP with GAMI's?
I assume when you say
that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial
cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or
handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running
LOP?
Thanks
Nico
________________________________
From:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39
PM
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now
Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been
flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even
consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be
operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of
cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is
Cheep!
As far as LOP
operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are
not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks
at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and
induction system could not be improve enough to justify the
expense.
One of my 560F's has
over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with
the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It
has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and
the engine was near TBO. We never ran
lean.
Oddly enough I started
flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a
great airplane!
Bill
Leff
In a message dated
4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes:
>
>>
>Good Morning Craig,
>
>>
>
>>
>My experience with
> any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time
operating various engines on the lean side
> of peak EGT.
>>
>
>>
>Back when I was
> flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those
> engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not
> have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further
> knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that
> LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good
> distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a
> power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on
> the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate
> LOP.
>>
>
>>
>I am certainly no
> engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers
in
> the spring of 1954.
>>
>
>>
>They made the same
> points that are now presented by the GAMI
> folks.
>>
>
>>
>I am a believer, but
> you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the
> proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the
> seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home
> study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there
> twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born!
> <G>)
>>
>
>>
>Happy
> Skies,
>>
>
>>
>Old
> Bob
>>
>AKA
>>
>Bob
> Siegfried
>>
>BrookeridgeAir Park
>>
>Downers
> Grove, Illinois
>>
>Stearman
> N3977A
>>
>
>>
>>
>In a message dated
> 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com > writes:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>Sure is
>> Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting
>> out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all
>> the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent
>> cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of
>> times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon
>> drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the
>> injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a
>> IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and
>> the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has
>> anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running
>> them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
>>
>>>>Annual coming late summer so
>> I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that
>> should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is
>> the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and
>> bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the
>> best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot
>> of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more
>> action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all
>> looky-loos....
>>
>>>>Craig
>>>>
>>
________________________________
>>From:cybersuperstore
>> <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
>>To: commander-list@matronics.com
>>Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00
>> PM
>>Subject: RE:
>> Commander-List: Re: Commanders
>>>>
>>I lost my Outlook
>> on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week.
>> So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data
>> that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started
>> downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the
>> opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their
>> respected folders while I am at it.
>>
>>Yesterday I stopped
>> over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk
>> around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't
>> thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I
saw
>> this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen
>> 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
>>
>>Craig, is she still
>> under your command?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Nico
>>
>>
>>>>
>>
________________________________
>>From:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
>>Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45
>> AM
>>To: commander-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Commander-List: Re:
>> Commanders
>>
>>>>
>>Hello
>> gang,
>>
>>>>Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H,
>> stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is
running again with rebuilt
>> engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job
>> getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to
>> tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and
>> adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get
>> together.
>>
>>>>Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
>>http://forums.matronics.com/
>>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>===================================
>>t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
>>===================================
>>ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>>===================================
>>tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>===================================
>>
>
>
>===================================
>t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
>===================================
>ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
>===================================
>tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>===================================
>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
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===================================
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===================================
Message 11
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|
Subject: | Re: Now Operating LOP |
Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat
damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted.
You're not doing partial power take-offs, are you? That can cause some
of the damage you're describing by not allowing the enrichening schedule
of the fuel flow at high throttle settings. Or, if you're pushing the
levers all the way up, the fuel scheduling for high power settings may no
t be set and you're running too lean at take-off.
It's already been mentioned in this thread that you may have valve problem
s on the side that has to run RoP.
I should probable sit here with my mouth shut and sit on my hands ... I've
been operating Garrett 731 engines so long that I've forgotten just about
everything I ever knew about piston engines. It's nice to have someone
else pay for the operating cost of an engine controlled by a computer.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: craig kennedy <white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:18 pm
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info for my IG
O-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and servo/distrib
utor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't without running
rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by just running ROP by
25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2 more $$$$$$$ overhaul
s. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of
heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. I like the idea
, but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared LYC's seem to dislike the met
hod... I don't have a dog in the hunt regarding the the proven LOP method
ology, but betting my money has proven to be more than I can afford!
Craig
From: Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com>
Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 10:00:21 PM
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewh
ere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming
IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when ru
nning LoP.
When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air
Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we di
scussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs.
They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compens
ate for low lead AvGas.
The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubr
icated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premat
ure engine removal when running LoP.
Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different
than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's somet
hing to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of gr
een colored AvGas.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack B. Mills <moe-rosspistons@hotmail.com>
Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Nico,
Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirt
s directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomi
zed and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four
engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT fro
m cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is diffe
rent due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance
in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of
running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course
does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the
'80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine
was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts.
When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its
self.
Moe Mills
N680RR
680Fp
From: cybersuperstore
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hi Bill,
As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the
cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder sep
arately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good
TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretic
ally, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's?
I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more mea
t" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon
pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not
coming down when running LOP?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li
st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's )
and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander
manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that
way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP ha
ve little trouble. Fuel is Cheep!
As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it,
Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders.
I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said tha
t the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to jus
tify the expense.
One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done ev
ery overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know ever
y operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a
failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ra
n lean.
Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and
am still flying it. What a great airplane!
Bill Leff
In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@
aol.com writes:
Good Morning Craig,
My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but
I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of
peak EGT.
Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occ
asionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power
settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no ha
rm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last six
ty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good dis
tribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine
analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane
could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no
roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP.
I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Cur
tiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954.
They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks.
I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cyl
inder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so,
I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If yo
u can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a
group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believ
er in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! <G>)
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
AKA
Bob Siegfried
Brookeridge Air Park
Downers Grove, Illinois
Stearman N3977A
In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_
rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes:
Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been
sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double
clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns ou
t those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used
a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gal
lon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the
injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IG
O-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and
the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has
anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running
them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe!
Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to re
place the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues.
Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor
plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed
that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Com
manders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to wo
rk but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sa
le, but so far, it's all looky-loos....
Craig
From: cybersuperstore <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new
desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because
the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were
already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from mo
re than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the
trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I
am at it.
Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk
around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I
didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on.
Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certai
n that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure.
Craig, is she still under your command?
Thanks
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-comm
ander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM
Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders
Hello gang,
Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored fo
r over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again wi
th rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a gr
eat job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more da
ys to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun
and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get
together.
Craig
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com/
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
===========
t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
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===========
ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com
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===========
tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
========================
===========
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===========
t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
========================
===========
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Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Now Operating LOP |
Nope. Full power. Full rich. Just watch CHT to keep
it below 400. I fly in southern CA so I watch temp
s closely.
Craig
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
-----Original Message-----
From: "Keith S. Gordon" <cloudcraft@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP
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