---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/21/10: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:57 AM - Simply the Best (Deneal Schilmeister (MacbookPro)) 2. 04:39 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BillLeff1@aol.com) 3. 05:19 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (cybersuperstore) 4. 05:59 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (Chris) 5. 07:25 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (Jack B. Mills) 6. 07:53 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (lloyd silverman) 7. 09:25 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BobsV35B@aol.com) 8. 09:42 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BobsV35B@aol.com) 9. 10:02 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (Keith S. Gordon) 10. 10:22 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (craig kennedy) 11. 10:41 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (Keith S. Gordon) 12. 10:48 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:57:24 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Simply the Best From: "Deneal Schilmeister (MacbookPro)" ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:39:54 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ____________________________________ From: cybersuperstore Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ==================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ==================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==================================== (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:45 PM PST US From: "cybersuperstore" Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig _____ From: cybersuperstore Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List =================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com =================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== =================================== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Commander-List =================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com =================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:56 PM PST US From: Chris Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP BillLeff1@aol.com wrote: > As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for > it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. Can you elaborate on that statement Bill? Given that LOP results in lower temps and pressures, I can't see where the extra material comes into play. thanks chris ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:07 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Mills" Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: cybersuperstore Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: cybersuperstore To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ===========t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List============= =======================ms.m atronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com=========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n======================== ============ ===========t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List============= =======================ms.m atronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com=========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n======================== ============ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:24 PM PST US From: "lloyd silverman" Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP HI BILL, FUEL TO AIR MIXTURE IS IDEAL FOR COMBUSTION AT 15 TO 1 (FOUND AT ROP). ONCE YOU GO LOP YOU WOULD HAVE TO ADD THROTLE TO GET THE SAME ENGINE POWER AS ROP BECAUSE YOU ARE BELOW THE IDEAL IS A 15 TO 1 AIR TO FUEL RATIO AT ROP.I DON'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD SAVE FUEL USING THE SAME POWER (PERFORMANCE.THEREFORE .AIR SPEED ) LOP VS ROP. THERE ARE OTHER ENGINE LIFE CONSIDERATONS. I HOPE I HAV'NT CONFUSED ALL THE MANY HERESAY REASONS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A CENTURY, . LLOYD ----- Original Message ----- From: cybersuperstore To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: cybersuperstore To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ------------------------------------------------------------------------- - From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ===========t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List============= =======================ms.m atronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com=========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n======================== ============ ===========t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List============= =======================ms.m atronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com=========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n======================== ============ http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:21 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Good Evening Bill, I guess if you have that much experience with your engines and are happy with what you have there is no need to change. And I agree, operating at high power and Peak EGT is rarely a good idea. If that is what the Commander folks recommend, I am surprised. Fifty rich of peak EGT is about the hottest spot you could operate. Personally, if I wanted to use seventy-five percent power or more, I would run more like 150 to 200 rich of peak EGT. Once again, all of this assumes good distribution, if the distribution is poor 150 to 200 rich is the better compromise, but it ain't good! However, any engine can be operated lean of peak if it has well balanced fuel distribution. There are limits and there are conditions. There is absolutely nothing about a Pratt and Whitney or a Curtiss Wright that makes them capable of lean operations other than they have the means to get an even distribution of fuel to each cylinder. I have not ran any of the large geared Lycomings for many years, but they told us then and tell us now that we can't hurt the engine with the mixture control, so I always felt comfortable experimenting. When I found that I had good distribution, I would often run on the lean side of best power. If the power available was adequate for my needs, it not only saved fuel, but the engines ran cooler and cleaner just like those Curtiss Wright engineers said they would. Same thing goes for any engine. There is no magic and this information is not new. Lindbergh used it and it worked well for him. What is wrong with running cleaner and cooler? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/21/2010 6:40:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time, BillLeff1@aol.com writes: Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ____________________________________ From: cybersuperstore Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ==================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ==================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==================================== =================================== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ==================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ==================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==================================== (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:54 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Good Evening Lloyd, The 15 (Some folks say 16) to one ratio is the stoichiometric mixture, No excess air and no excess fuel. If we run richer than stoichiometric, that is by definition on the rich side, If we run leaner than stoichiometric, that is, by definition on the lean side. You will get the same speed at the same horsepower if you are rich of peak EGT or lean of peak EGT. As you state, it will require more manifold pressure to get the same horsepower LOP as ROP so in that case you are correct. However, It is possible under many conditions to get that same horsepower at a different BSFC. The key to economical operation is to be able to operate at or very close to Best BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) Best BSFC is where all of the fuel that is being supplied has plenty of air to combine with and there is extra air to be heated and provide more power per pound of fuel.If we want to get the most power we can for each molecule of oxygen available, we need to throw enough fuel at the fire such that every last little bit of air gets burned. That is called Best Power. At best power, we are burning a lot more fuel per horsepower than we would be if we were running on the lean side of best power. For most modern light plane engines, best BSFC occurs somewhere between twenty degrees Fahrenheit lean of Peak EGT and eighty Degrees lean of peak EGT, The higher powers require the greatest amount lean, but the engine may not be able to provide that power due to cooling needs, At power settings of 65 per cent or so, best BSFC is close to thirty degrees F lean of peak EGT. There is no one size fits all answer. You have to decide what it is you want from the engine. If you wish to use high horsepower (above 65 to 70 percent power, you need to throw a LOT of fuel on the fire or the engine will get hot. There are exceptions, but that is good ball park starting point. As Always, It All Depends. Life is NOT simple. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/21/2010 9:56:41 P.M. Central Daylight Time, LLOYDSSS11@msn.com writes: HI BILL, FUEL TO AIR MIXTURE IS IDEAL FOR COMBUSTION AT 15 TO 1 (FOUND AT ROP). ONCE YOU GO LOP YOU WOULD HAVE TO ADD THROTLE TO GET THE SAME ENGINE POWER AS ROP BECAUSE YOU ARE BELOW THE IDEAL IS A 15 TO 1 AIR TO FUEL RATIO AT ROP.I DON'T BELIEVE YOU WOULD SAVE FUEL USING THE SAME POWER (PERFORMANCE.THEREFORE .AIR SPEED ) LOP VS ROP. THERE ARE OTHER ENGINE LIFE CONSIDERATONS. I HOPE I HAV'NT CONFUSED ALL THE MANY HERESAY REASONS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR A CENTURY, . LLOYD ----- Original Message ----- From: _cybersuperstore_ (mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com) Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 8:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP From: "Keith S. Gordon" Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewh ere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when ru nning LoP. When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we di scussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs. They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compens ate for low lead AvGas. The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubr icated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premat ure engine removal when running LoP. Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's somet hing to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of gr een colored AvGas. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Mills Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirt s directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomi zed and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT fro m cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is diffe rent due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: cybersuperstore Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder sep arately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretic ally, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more mea t" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP ha ve little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said tha t the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to jus tify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done ev ery overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know ever y operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ra n lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@ aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occ asionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no ha rm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last six ty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good dis tribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Cur tiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cyl inder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If yo u can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believ er in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_ rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns ou t those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gal lon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IG O-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to re place the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Com manders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to wo rk but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sa le, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig From: cybersuperstore Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from mo re than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certai n that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-comm ander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored fo r over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again wi th rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a gr eat job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more da ys to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:56 PM PST US From: craig kennedy Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info for my IGO-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and servo/distributor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't without running rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by just running ROP by 25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2 more $$$$$$$ overhauls. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. I like the idea, but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared LYC's seem to dislike the method... I don't have a dog in the hunt regarding the the proven LOP methodology, but betting my money has proven to be more than I can afford! Craig ________________________________ From: Keith S. Gordon Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 10:00:21 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP. When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs. They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas. The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP. Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Mills Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: cybersuperstore Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ________________________________ From:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: > >> >Good Morning Craig, > >> > >> >My experience with > any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side > of peak EGT. >> > >> >Back when I was > flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those > engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not > have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further > knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that > LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good > distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a > power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on > the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate > LOP. >> > >> >I am certainly no > engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in > the spring of 1954. >> > >> >They made the same > points that are now presented by the GAMI > folks. >> > >> >I am a believer, but > you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the > proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the > seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home > study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there > twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! > ) >> > >> >Happy > Skies, >> > >> >Old > Bob >> >AKA >> >Bob > Siegfried >> >BrookeridgeAir Park >> >Downers > Grove, Illinois >> >Stearman > N3977A >> > >> >> >In a message dated > 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com > writes: >>> >>>> >>>> >>Sure is >> Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting >> out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all >> the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent >> cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of >> times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon >> drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the >> injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a >> IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and >> the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has >> anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running >> them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! >> >>>>Annual coming late summer so >> I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that >> should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is >> the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and >> bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the >> best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot >> of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more >> action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all >> looky-loos.... >> >>>>Craig >>>> >> ________________________________ >>From:cybersuperstore >> >>To: commander-list@matronics.com >>Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 >> PM >>Subject: RE: >> Commander-List: Re: Commanders >>>> >>I lost my Outlook >> on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. >> So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data >> that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started >> downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the >> opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their >> respected folders while I am at it. >> >>Yesterday I stopped >> over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk >> around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't >> thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw >> this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen >> 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. >> >>Craig, is she still >> under your command? >> >>Thanks >> >>Nico >> >> >>>> >> ________________________________ >>From:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy >>Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 >> AM >>To: commander-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Commander-List: Re: >> Commanders >> >>>> >>Hello >> gang, >> >>>>Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, >> stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt >> engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job >> getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to >> tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and >> adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get >> together. >> >>>>Craig >> >> >> >>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >>http://forums.matronics.com/ >>http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>=================================== >>t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >>=================================== >>ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com >>=================================== >>tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >>=================================== >> > > >=================================== >t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List >=================================== >ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com >=================================== >tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >=================================== > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c =================================== ator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List =================================== ttp://forums.matronics.com =================================== ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:16 PM PST US Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP From: "Keith S. Gordon" Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. You're not doing partial power take-offs, are you? That can cause some of the damage you're describing by not allowing the enrichening schedule of the fuel flow at high throttle settings. Or, if you're pushing the levers all the way up, the fuel scheduling for high power settings may no t be set and you're running too lean at take-off. It's already been mentioned in this thread that you may have valve problem s on the side that has to run RoP. I should probable sit here with my mouth shut and sit on my hands ... I've been operating Garrett 731 engines so long that I've forgotten just about everything I ever knew about piston engines. It's nice to have someone else pay for the operating cost of an engine controlled by a computer. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: craig kennedy Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 10:18 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info for my IG O-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and servo/distrib utor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't without running rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by just running ROP by 25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2 more $$$$$$$ overhaul s. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. I like the idea , but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared LYC's seem to dislike the met hod... I don't have a dog in the hunt regarding the the proven LOP method ology, but betting my money has proven to be more than I can afford! Craig From: Keith S. Gordon Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 10:00:21 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewh ere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when ru nning LoP. When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we di scussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs. They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compens ate for low lead AvGas. The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubr icated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premat ure engine removal when running LoP. Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's somet hing to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of gr een colored AvGas. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Mills Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirt s directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomi zed and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT fro m cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is diffe rent due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: cybersuperstore Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder sep arately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretic ally, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more mea t" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP ha ve little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said tha t the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to jus tify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done ev ery overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know ever y operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ra n lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@ aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occ asionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no ha rm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last six ty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good dis tribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Cur tiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cyl inder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If yo u can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believ er in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_ rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns ou t those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gal lon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IG O-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to re place the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Com manders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to wo rk but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sa le, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig From: cybersuperstore Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from mo re than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certai n that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-comm ander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored fo r over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again wi th rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a gr eat job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more da ys to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com/ http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ======================== =========== ator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ttp://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP From: white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com Nope. Full power. Full rich. Just watch CHT to keep it below 400. I fly in southern CA so I watch temp s closely. Craig Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: "Keith S. Gordon" Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.