---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/03/10: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:04 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BillLeff1@aol.com) 2. 10:09 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BillLeff1@aol.com) 3. 10:12 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BillLeff1@aol.com) 4. 10:25 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BillLeff1@aol.com) 5. 10:47 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BillLeff1@aol.com) 6. 10:47 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BillLeff1@aol.com) 7. 10:47 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (BillLeff1@aol.com) 8. 10:49 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (Keith S. Gordon) 9. 11:26 PM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (John Vormbaum) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:04:01 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, the Radial engine heads are beefier. By the way, an IGSO-540-B1A uses a single fuel injector in the supercharger housing. The individual lines going to the cylinders are primer lines. It is impossible to put GAMI injectors on that engine. Lycoming has had a tradition of cracking cyl heads on many models. The same engine on the Queen Air ( IGSO-540-A1A ) uses a Bendix fuel servo but still uses a single injector. The problem is BMEP because of the low compression and high manifold pressures. There is no way to monitor BMEP on this engine. Bill Leff In a message dated 4/21/2010 8:20:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nico@cybersuperstore.com writes: Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ____________________________________ From: cybersuperstore Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List =================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com =================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== =================================== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List =================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com =================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:44 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP 75% power on a IGSO is not recommended. However as you indicated above 75% 150-200 rich is mandatory. On the IGO 540 I use 50 deg rich, on the IGSO I use 100 deg, rich. Bill Leff In a message dated 4/22/2010 12:25:41 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: Good Evening Bill, I guess if you have that much experience with your engines and are happy with what you have there is no need to change. And I agree, operating at high power and Peak EGT is rarely a good idea. If that is what the Commander folks recommend, I am surprised. Fifty rich of peak EGT is about the hottest spot you could operate. Personally, if I wanted to use seventy-five percent power or more, I would run more like 150 to 200 rich of peak EGT. Once again, all of this assumes good distribution, if the distribution is poor 150 to 200 rich is the better compromise, but it ain't good! However, any engine can be operated lean of peak if it has well balanced fuel distribution. There are limits and there are conditions. There is absolutely nothing about a Pratt and Whitney or a Curtiss Wright that makes them capable of lean operations other than they have the means to get an even distribution of fuel to each cylinder. I have not ran any of the large geared Lycomings for many years, but they told us then and tell us now that we can't hurt the engine with the mixture control, so I always felt comfortable experimenting. When I found that I had good distribution, I would often run on the lean side of best power. If the power available was adequate for my needs, it not only saved fuel, but the engines ran cooler and cleaner just like those Curtiss Wright engineers said they would. Same thing goes for any engine. There is no magic and this information is not new. Lindbergh used it and it worked well for him. What is wrong with running cleaner and cooler? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 4/21/2010 6:40:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time, BillLeff1@aol.com writes: Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35B@aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ____________________________________ From: cybersuperstore Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ==================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ==================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==================================== =================================== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ==================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ==================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==================================== =================================== t href ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ==================================== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ==================================== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ==================================== (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:12:54 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey Gordon, I am at Simcom at Westwind school. Yes, I an going to be flying one of those things again. My instructor is flying N300TC! Imagine that!!!!!!!!!! Bill In a message dated 4/22/2010 1:02:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cloudcraft@aol.com writes: Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP. When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs. They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas. The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP. Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Mills Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: _cybersuperstore_ (mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com) Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: _owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com) [_mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?) ] On Behalf Of _BillLeff1@aol.com_ (mailto:BillLeff1@aol.com) Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _BobsV35B@aol.com_ (mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com) writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, _white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com_ (mailto:white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com) writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ____________________________________ From: cybersuperstore <_nico@cybersuperstore.com_ (mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com) > Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: _owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com) [_mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?) ] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== t href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) =================================== ms.matronics.com/">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) =================================== tp://_www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== =================================== t href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) =================================== ms.matronics.com/">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) =================================== tp://_www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) href="_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) ">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) href="_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/c_ (http://www.matronics.com/c) =================================== ator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List =================================== ttp://forums.matronics.com =================================== ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:41 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Forgot, you are right, we had better gas back then. If you follow the Commander POH you will be running at peek. Lycoming does show LOP operation. THEY ALSO SELL CYLINDERS!!!!!!!!!! lOTS OF THEM. You guys can argue and theorize all you want. But from a maintenance shop point of view. Run rich or carry cylinders with you! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/22/2010 1:02:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cloudcraft@aol.com writes: Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP. When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs. They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas. The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP. Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Mills Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: _cybersuperstore_ (mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com) Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: _owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com) [_mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?) ] On Behalf Of _BillLeff1@aol.com_ (mailto:BillLeff1@aol.com) Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _BobsV35B@aol.com_ (mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com) writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, _white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com_ (mailto:white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com) writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ____________________________________ From: cybersuperstore <_nico@cybersuperstore.com_ (mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com) > Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: _owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com) [_mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?) ] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== t href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) =================================== ms.matronics.com/">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) =================================== tp://_www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== =================================== t href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) =================================== ms.matronics.com/">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) =================================== tp://_www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) href="_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) ">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) href="_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/c_ (http://www.matronics.com/c) =================================== ator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List =================================== ttp://forums.matronics.com =================================== ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:18 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey, Ken, While I am not a fan of LOP operations, If there is an engine and installation it might work on it would be the 500B/U/S. With proper baffling, those engines run so cool heat is not a problem. That is why Bob Hoover could cut his engines at full power and then restart them and immediately go back to full power for his air show. He rarely had to change cylinders. They just never got hot enough to crack. However, those airplanes need all the power they can get. LOP may cause a power loss that is un acceptable reduction of speed. Wonder how John Towner operates his flock (30+ aircraft) ? He has to squeeze every nickel out of his aircraft because his livelihood depends on it. Does he prefer to spend money on fuel or engines? Bill Leff In a message dated 4/22/2010 9:15:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, KenWHyde@aol.com writes: Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's?? Thanks, Ken (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:18 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Yup, 25-50 deg is too lean. IGSO's require 100 deg. Bill Leff In a message dated 4/22/2010 1:23:18 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes: Interesting information by everyone. While I have detailed info for my IGO-540's, available by cylinder, for EGT, CHT, Fuel flow, and servo/distributor flow rate, the left can run LOP but the right can't without running rough. Why? I have err'd on the side of caution by just running ROP by 25 to 50 degrees as the fuel is MUCH cheaper than 2 more $$$$$$$ overhauls. Failures to date have been valve centric, but a surprising amount of heat damage in the pins, head, and heads was also noted. I like the idea, but I'd like to hit TBO and the big geared LYC's seem to dislike the method... I don't have a dog in the hunt regarding the the proven LOP methodology, but betting my money has proven to be more than I can afford! Craig ____________________________________ From: Keith S. Gordon Sent: Wed, April 21, 2010 10:00:21 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP. When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs. They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas. The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP. Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Mills Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: _cybersuperstore_ (mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com) Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: _owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com) [_mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?) ] On Behalf Of _BillLeff1@aol.com_ (mailto:BillLeff1@aol.com) Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _BobsV35B@aol.com_ (mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com) writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, _white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com_ (mailto:white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com) writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ____________________________________ From: cybersuperstore <_nico@cybersuperstore.com_ (mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com) > Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: _owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com) [_mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?) ] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) _http://forums.matronics.com/_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== t href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) =================================== _ms.matronics.com/_ (http://ms.matronics.com/) ">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) =================================== tp://_www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== =================================== t href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) =================================== ms.matronics.com/">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) =================================== tp://_www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) href="_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) ">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) href="_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/c_ (http://www.matronics.com/c) =================================== ator?Commander-List">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) =================================== ttp://forums.matronics.com =================================== ibution">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:34 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Forgot, you are right, we had better gas back then. If you follow the Commander POH you will be running at peek. Lycoming does show LOP operation. THEY ALSO SELL CYLINDERS!!!!!!!!!! lOTS OF THEM. You guys can argue and theorize all you want. But from a maintenance shop point of view. Run rich or carry cylinders with you! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/22/2010 1:02:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cloudcraft@aol.com writes: Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewhere in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when running LoP. When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Air Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs. They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensate for low lead AvGas. The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of premature engine removal when running LoP. Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's something to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Mills Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some other imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: _cybersuperstore_ (mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com) Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but theoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: _owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com) [_mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?) ] On Behalf Of _BillLeff1@aol.com_ (mailto:BillLeff1@aol.com) Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it, Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, _BobsV35B@aol.com_ (mailto:BobsV35B@aol.com) writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, _white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com_ (mailto:white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com) writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig ____________________________________ From: cybersuperstore <_nico@cybersuperstore.com_ (mailto:nico@cybersuperstore.com) > Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, which I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be sure. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico ____________________________________ From: _owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com) [_mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com_ (mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com?) ] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annual get together. Craig _http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) _http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) _http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== t href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) =================================== ms.matronics.com/">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) =================================== tp://_www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== =================================== t href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) =================================== ms.matronics.com/">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) =================================== tp://_www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) =================================== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ">_http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List_ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) href="_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) ">_http://forums.matronics.com_ (http://forums.matronics.com/) href="_http://www.matronics.com/contribution_ (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ">_http://www.matronics.com/c_ (http://www.matronics.com/c) =================================== ator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List =================================== ttp://forums.matronics.com =================================== ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP From: "Keith S. Gordon" Hey Gordon, I am at Simcom at Westwind school. Yes, I an going to be flyin g one of those things again. My instructor is flying N300TC! Imagine that !!!!!!!!!! Gadzooks! It's a small world (but I'd hate to have to paint it). On topic, I'm doing an R.O.N. at Fresno, California (KFAT) and have been reminiscing about how this was where I did my first dual cross-country in 1974 ... the it was one of the points of my solo long cross country ... and then as an instructor, I brought my students here for their first dua l X-C (it's 100.5 nm from Watsonville!) and then I started flying in here as a freight dog in an AeroCommander 680E in about 1978. And when I got to Pago Pago in 1994, there was that very same 680E, in Int er Island Air colors. Now we need to examine why our careers are built upon out of production ai rplanes. Maybe it's because the out of production airplanes are so good .... Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Mon, May 3, 2010 10:10 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey Gordon, I am at Simcom at Westwind school. Yes, I an going to be flyin g one of those things again. My instructor is flying N300TC! Imagine that !!!!!!!!!! Bill In a message dated 4/22/2010 1:02:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cloudcraf t@aol.com writes: Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somew here in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycom ing IGSO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves wh en running LoP. When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name), owner of Suburban Ai r Freight, for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997), we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs. They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compe nsate for low lead AvGas. The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lu bricated the valve guides, which Jay said was their greatest cause of pr emature engine removal when running LoP. Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far differen t than the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's so mething to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Mills Sent: Wed, Apr 21, 2010 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico, Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squi rts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomized and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on al l four engines that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cylinder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixtur e is different due to valve job, intake port configuration, or some othe r imbalance in the air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of running LOP, as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does cut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered th is out back in the '80s when running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich, made a lot of horsepower and consum ed mountains of parts. When money was tight I simply ran it so lean tha t it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: cybersuperstore Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the cheap side of peak, I still wonder, if one could manage each cylinder separately such as with GAMI's, whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested, but th eoretically, what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat" on the radial cylinders, that there is more aluminum above the gu dgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat, right? But are the temperatur es not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander- list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys, I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Comma nder manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that way goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have little trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations, the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it , Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justify the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done every overhaul. Also, with the exception of about 200 hours I have know every operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown, That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, BobsV35 B@aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig, My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old, but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EGT. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasionally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power settings and we did not have good instrumentation, but I observ ed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over th e last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution befor e modern engine analyzers were available was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down about ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness, I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert, but I did attend a course taught by Curtiss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer, but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cylinder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so, I urge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person, take the home study version, but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove, Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time, whit e_rhino_ps@yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sorting out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After doubl e clamping all the connector tubes, thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dolla r a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engines are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI folks and they have never don e a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT moni tor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is going on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? The idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issue s. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The do nor plane has been a big help with parts and bits. My pals have not iced that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! Not a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 74 7H up for sale, but so far, it's all looky-loos.... Craig From: cybersuperstore Sent: Sat, April 17, 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a ne w desktop this past week. So, I am going through all the emails beca use the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10,000+ messages from more than a year ago. I am taking the opportunity to clean som e of the trash out and sorting them back into their respected folder s while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to wa lk around to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H, whic h I didn't thing anything of except to gawk into the windows and mov e on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before, but cannot be su re. Craig, is she still under your command? Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-comman der-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang, Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H, stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris , TX ), is running again with rebuilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting all the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for the annua l get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ======================== =========== ator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ttp://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:26:03 PM PST US Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP From: John Vormbaum Hi Bill, I've had many conversations with John about how he runs his airplanes. I recall that he is a fan of LOP operations. He averages several hundred hours beyond TBO for all his engines, and saves gas money in the process. His airplanes seem to run very well and he's never mentioned an undue number of replacement cylinders. Incidentally, my "old" engine, which is at TBO, has always run beautifully LOP. My "new" engine, which was mid-time, never did...and a couple of years ago, after a decade running it ROP, it broke a ring, burned up a jug, and cracked the case, leading to an OH. My B model is turbonormalized and I cruise at 75% power. I'm a big fan of LOP operations, as the happy-lean engine seems to support. I'll be getting GAMIs for both engines soon. The IGSO-540 series may not be a candidate for LOP due to its fuel delivery method and higher stress condition, but the IO-540 direct drive engines seem custom made for it. Cheers, John sent by my DROID. Please pardon any typos. On May 3, 2010 10:59 PM, wrote: Hey, Ken, While I am not a fan of LOP operations, If there is an engine and installation it might work on it would be the 500B/U/S. With proper baffling, those engines run so cool heat is not a problem. That is why Bob Hoover could cut his engines at full power and then restart them and immediately go back to full power for his air show. He rarely had to change cylinders. They just never got hot enough to crack. However, those airplanes need all the power they can get. LOP may cause a power loss that is un acceptable reduction of speed. Wonder how John Towner operates his flock (30+ aircraft) ? He has to squeeze every nickel out of his aircraft because his livelihood depends on it. Does he prefer to spend money on fuel or engines? Bill Leff In a message dated 4/22/2010 9:15:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, KenWHyde@aol.com writes: Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's?? Thanks, Ken > > =================================== > t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Lis... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.