---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/04/10: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:38 AM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (Bill Hamilton) 2. 05:38 AM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com) 3. 07:16 AM - Re: Was : Re: Now Operating LOP (Roland Gilliam) 4. 10:47 AM - FW: A great lady dies (Jim Addington) 5. 05:39 PM - VIBRATION (lloyd silverman) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:18 AM PST US From: "Bill Hamilton" Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Folks, I certainly concur about the IO-540. Although in Pipers, not Commanders, and before GAMI, we operated a 260B Comanche and two Aztec, all fitted with EGT on all cylinders, and ran LOP based on the hottest cylinder. We also ran "Low RPM/High boost. We regularly obtained around 3000h TBO, after a top at 1000h, which eliminated burning valve seats. The fuel saving are quite dramatic, for the same HP output, the cruise altitudes usually meant that about 65% was all that was available. The difference between "high rpm/low boost" and running ROP, and the reverse plus LOP was the difference between a fuel flow in cruise of about 12.5 US GPH per engine v. about 9 US GPH. For an engine like the IO-540, even the oil looked different at a 50h oil/filter change, with LOP the oil was not a black goo, but closer to the original colour of fresh oil. By definition, running ROP or LOP is cooler than peak EGT, but as test cell and real world experience has shown, to maximise the chance of detonation, run a mixture about 50 degrees ROP. There are some amazing old wife's tales about LOP, particularly from A&Ps. We have even had the rubbish turn up, down here in AU, from the ATSB and as Coroner's Courts evidence. One smarter than the average Coroner decided that the only way to sort out the old wife's tales was to take his court to GAMI, and commission actual test cell verification. This completely disproved claims made in an ATSB report about a particular very controversial fatal. This really upset the "lean to rough running, the rich until it smooths out" brigade, who have no idea how variable the actual cylinder by cylinder distribution is in an engine that only has "standard" injectors. For any engine that can benefit from GAMIs, fitting them and a multi-point EGT, and running LOP is a very positive investment in ensuring long and reliable minimum cost life. To tear down an LOP operated IO-540 at 2000h, and find that the first run barrels are within limits to just deglaze and fit new rings helps make for a minimum cost overhaul. Regards, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:21 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill, I've had many conversations with John about how he runs his airplanes. I recall that he is a fan of LOP operations. He averages several hundred hours beyond TBO for all his engines, and saves gas money in the process. His airplanes seem to run very well and he's never mentioned an undue number of replacement cylinders. Incidentally, my "old" engine, which is at TBO, has always run beautifully LOP. My "new" engine, which was mid-time, never did...and a couple of years ago, after a decade running it ROP, it broke a ring, burned up a jug, and cracked the case, leading to an OH. My B model is turbonormalized and I cruise at 75% power. I'm a big fan of LOP operations, as the happy-lean engine seems to support. I'll be getting GAMIs for both engines soon. The IGSO-540 series may not be a candidate for LOP due to its fuel delivery method and higher stress condition, but the IO-540 direct drive engines seem custom made for it. Cheers, John sent by my DROID. Please pardon any typos. On May 3, 2010 10:59 PM, wrote: Hey, Ken, While I am not a fan of LOP operations, If there is an engine and installation it might work on it would be the 500B/U/S. With proper baffling, those engines run so cool heat is not a problem. That is why Bob Hoover could cut his engines at full power and then restart them and immediately go back to full power for his air show. He rarely had to change cylinders. They just never got hot enough to crack. However, those airplanes need all the power they can get. LOP may cause a power loss that is un acceptable reduction of speed. Wonder how John Towner operates his flock (30+ aircraft) ? He has to squeeze every nickel out of his aircraft because his livelihood depends on it. Does he prefer to spend money on fuel or engines? Bill Leff In a message dated 4/22/2010 9:15:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, KenWHyde@aol.com writes: Know this is about the IGSO540 & IGO540 but what are the thoughts of LOP on the narrow deck IO540's?? Thanks, Ken > > ========== > t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Lis... nt> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:22 AM PST US Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP From: white_rhino_ps@yahoo.com Bill, Do you use 50 ROP on coolest or hotest cylinder? Are you using CHT or EGT? Craig Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T -----Original Message----- From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:24 AM PST US From: Roland Gilliam Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Bill=2C What is your opnion as to mixture on my straight 500 with O540's?? Roland Gilliam AC 6291B From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Forgot=2C you are right=2C we had better gas back then. If you follow the C ommander POH you will be running at peek. Lycoming does show LOP operation. THEY ALSO SELL CYLINDERS!!!!!!!!!! lOTS OF THEM. You guys can argue and th eorize all you want. But from a maintenance shop point of view. Run rich or carry cylinders with you! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/22/2010 1:02:45 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time=2C cloudcra ft@aol.com writes: Lycoming definitely advocated running the IGSO-540 Lean of Peak -- somewher e in the diaspora of Commander stuff in my garage I have an old Lycoming IG SO-540 operator's manual that shows the temperature-drop curves when runnin g LoP. When I was interviewing Jay (forgot his last name)=2C owner of Suburban Air Freight=2C for an article in an early Flight Group News (circa 1997)=2C we discussed how they operated their fleet of AC-680-FLs. They ran Rich of Peak -- not because of engine cooling: It was to compensa te for low lead AvGas. The engine was designed around a high lead content fuel and that lead lubri cated the valve guides=2C which Jay said was their greatest cause of premat ure engine removal when running LoP. Here we have an argument for running RoP based on something far different t han the engine temperature / heat dissipation controversy. That's somethin g to consider if you're running the older engines born in the era of green colored AvGas. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. -----Original Message----- From: Jack B. Mills Sent: Wed=2C Apr 21=2C 2010 7:22 pm Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Nico=2C Due to the fact that the IGSO540 has only one injector nozzle which squirts directly into the supercharger impeller the mixture is pretty well atomize d and even from cylinder to cylinder (at least it has been on all four engi nes that have been in my plane). If there is a difference in EGT from cyli nder is is most likely because the flow or air fuel mixture is different du e to valve job=2C intake port configuration=2C or some other imbalance in t he air fuel mixture flow rate from cyl. to cyl. I am a huge fan of runnin g LOP=2C as the cylinder head temps are much cooler. This of course does c ut down on the horsepower. I sort of figgered this out back in the '80s wh en running my top fuel dragster. When I had some money the engine was run rich=2C made a lot of horsepower and consumed mountains of parts. When mon ey was tight I simply ran it so lean that it couldn't hurt its self. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp From: cybersuperstore Sent: Wednesday=2C April 21=2C 2010 5:14 PM Subject: RE: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hi Bill=2C As someone who hasn't yet come to terms with pulling the mixtures to the ch eap side of peak=2C I still wonder=2C if one could manage each cylinder sep arately such as with GAMI's=2C whether the IGSO-540's would sustain a good TBO. I realize it might not be practical as GAMI suggested=2C but theoretic ally=2C what would prevent these engines from working well LOP with GAMI's? I assume when you say that the Wright and P&W engines have "a lot more meat " on the radial cylinders=2C that there is more aluminum above the gudgeon pin to dissipate or handle the heat=2C right? But are the temperatures not coming down when running LOP? Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday=2C April 21=2C 2010 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Was : Re: Commander-List: Now Operating LOP Hey guys=2C I have been flying IGSO-540's and IGO-540's ( I own 2 560F's ) and I would not even consider operating LOP. If you fly per the Commander manual you will be operating at peek. Everyone I know that operates that wa y goes through a lot of cylinders. The operators that fly 50-100 ROP have l ittle trouble. Fuel is Cheep! As far as LOP operations=2C the P&W and Wright engines are designed for it =2C Lycomings are not. There is a lot more meat on the radial cylinders. I spoke with the folks at GAMI about injectors for the 560F. They said that the IGO-540 fuel and induction system could not be improve enough to justi fy the expense. One of my 560F's has over 7000 hours on it and the same person has done eve ry overhaul. Also=2C with the exception of about 200 hours I have know ever y operator of the aircraft. It has had one in flight shutdown=2C That was a failed valve in the #1 cylinder and the engine was near TBO. We never ran lean. Oddly enough I started flying this 560F in 1971. In 1994 I bought it and am still flying it. What a great airplane! Bill Leff In a message dated 4/18/2010 8:31:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time=2C BobsV35B @aol.com writes: Good Morning Craig=2C My experience with any Aero Commander is now over fifty years old=2C but I do have a LOT of time operating various engines on the lean side of peak EG T. Back when I was flying early Aero Commanders and Twin Bonanzas I did occasi onally run those engines on the lean side. It was only at low power setting s and we did not have good instrumentation=2C but I observed no harm at the time. Further knowledge that I have acquired over the last sixty years has convinced me that LOP is the way to go IF you have good distribution. The way I checked for good distribution before modern engine analyzers were ava ilable was to lean for a power drop. If the airplane could be slowed down a bout ten MPH via running on the lean side with no roughness=2C I figured it was good enough to operate LOP. I am certainly no engine expert=2C but I did attend a course taught by Curt iss Wright engineers in the spring of 1954. They made the same points that are now presented by the GAMI folks. I am a believer=2C but you HAVE to find a method of assuring that each cyli nder is operating at the proper mixture. If you have not yet done so=2C I u rge you to attend one of the seminars held by folks from GAMI. If you can't attend in person=2C take the home study version=2C but going with a group of pilots is a lot more fun. (Been there twice and I was a believer in the process before the folks at GAMI were born! ) Happy Skies=2C Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Brookeridge Air Park Downers Grove=2C Illinois Stearman N3977A In a message dated 4/18/2010 12:37:23 A.M. Central Daylight Time=2C white_r hino_ps@yahoo.com writes: Sure is Nico. Just brought it up from San Diego last weekend. Been sortin g out leaky new fuel cells and the usual squawks. After double clamping all the connector tubes=2C thought I had it whipped. Turns out those 10 cent cork access hole gaskets were leaking after being used a couple of times. A trip to Napa finally stopped the 5 dollar a gallon drip!!! Rebuilt engin es are running well. Need to dial in the injectors. Talked to the GAMI fo lks and they have never done a IGO-540. Could be useful as I already have the GEM CHT/EGT monitor and the JPI dual fuel flow so I can see what is goi ng on pretty well. Has anyone in the gang had experience with this yet? T he idea of running them 50 degrees LOP makes me cringe! Annual coming late summer so I'm collecting the bits now. I need to replace the aux fuel valves and that should finish with those issues. Annual time with the nacelles down is the time for that! The donor plane has been a b ig help with parts and bits. My pals have noticed that the donor plane so far has been the best plane investment in Commanders I've made to date! N ot a lot of air time this year due to work but I'm hoping the fall will see more action. I put 747H up for sale=2C but so far=2C it's all looky-loos. ... Craig From: cybersuperstore Sent: Sat=2C April 17=2C 2010 8:03:00 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Commanders I lost my Outlook on my laptop and had to restore everything to a new deskt op this past week. So=2C I am going through all the emails because the mail server lost the data that told it which email messages were already on my laptop and started downloading 10=2C000+ messages from more than a year ago . I am taking the opportunity to clean some of the trash out and sorting th em back into their respected folders while I am at it. Yesterday I stopped over at Camarillo airport for a coffee and to walk arou nd to see if I see familiar planes. And there was N747H=2C which I didn't t hing anything of except to gawk into the windows and move on. Tonight I saw this message from almost a year ago. I am almost certain that I have seen 747H on the apron before=2C but cannot be sure. Craig=2C is she still under your command? Thanks Nico From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of craig kennedy Sent: Monday=2C July 06=2C 2009 10:45 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Commanders Hello gang=2C Just thought I would update the group that 560F N747H=2C stored for over a year in the middle of nowhere ( Paris =2C TX )=2C is running again with reb uilt engines and props. Richard Cam at Aeroquest did a great job getting a ll the problems sorted out. Just a few more days to tidy up the remaining issues and she should be up for fun and adventure. Maybe even a trip for t he annual get together. Craig http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matroni cs.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== ============t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navi gator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List= ==========ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.co m======================== ============tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">ht tp://www.matronics.com/contribution============= ======================= = ==========t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator? 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Combine multiple calendars with H otmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid= PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:28 AM PST US From: "Jim Addington" Subject: Commander-List: FW: A great lady dies Subject: Fw: A great lady dies Rest in Peace, and thank you, Mrs. Pamela Murphy. Dennis McCarthy Los Angeles Times on April 15, 2010 October 7, 1923 - April 8, 2010 Pamela Murphy, widow of WWII hero and actor, Audie Murphy, died peacefully at her home on April 8, 2010. She is survived by sons, Terry and James. Pam established her own distinctive 30 year career working as a patient liaison at the Sepulveda VA Hospital, where she was much beloved. Services will be held at Forest Lawn (Hollywood Hills) on Friday April 16 at 2:30PM http://www.dailynews.com/portlet/article/html/imageDisplay.jsp?contentIte mRelationshipId=2961390 Pam Murphy, the widow of Audie Murphy, was involved in the Sepulveda VA hospital and care center over the course of 35 years, treating every veteran who visited the facility as if they were a VIP. Pam Murphy died last week at the age of 90. After Audie died, they all became her boys. Every last one of them. Any soldier or Marine who walked into the Sepulveda VA hospital and care center in the last 35 years got the VIP treatment from Pam Murphy. The widow of Audie Murphy =93 the most decorated soldier in World War II =93 would walk the hallways with her clipboard in hand making sure her boys got to see a specialist or doctor =94 STAT. If they didn't, watch out. Her boys weren't Medal of Honor recipients or movie stars like Audie, but that didn't matter to Pam. They had served their country. That was good enough for her. She never called a veteran by his first name. It was always "Mister." Respect came with the job. "Nobody could cut through VA red tape faster than Mrs. Murphy," said veteran Stephen Sherman, speaking for thousands of veterans she befriended over the years. "Many times I watched her march a veteran who had been waiting more than an hour right into the doctor's office. She was even reprimanded a few times, but it didn't matter to Mrs. Murphy. "Only her boys mattered. She was our angel." Last week, Sepulveda VA's angel for the last 35 years died peacefully in her sleep at age 90. "She was in bed watching the Laker game, took one last breath, and thatwas it," said Diane Ruiz, who also worked at the VA and cared for Pam in the last years of her life in her Canoga Park apartment. It was the same apartment Pam moved into soon after Audie died in a plane crash on Memorial Day weekend in 1971. Audie Murphy died broke, squandering million of dollars on gambling, bad investments, and yes, other women. "Even with the adultery and desertion at the end, he always remained my hero," Pam told me. She went from a comfortable ranch-style home in Van Nuys where she raised two sons to a small apartment - taking a clerk's job at the nearby VA to support herself and start paying off her faded movie star husband's debts. At first, no one knew who she was. Soon, though, word spread through the VA that the nice woman with the clipboard was Audie Murphy's widow. It was like saying Patton had just walked in the front door. Men with tears in their eyes walked up to her and gave her a hug. "Thank you," they said, over and over. The first couple of years, I think the hugs were more for Audie's memory as a war hero. The last 30 years, they were for Pam. She hated the spotlight. One year I asked her to be the focus of a Veteran's Day column for all the work she had done. Pam just shook her head no. "Honor them, not me," she said, pointing to a group of veterans down the hallway. "They're the ones who deserve it." The vets disagreed. Mrs. Murphy deserved the accolades, they said. Incredibly, in 2002, Pam's job was going to be eliminated in budget cuts. She was considered "excess staff." "I don't think helping cut down on veterans' complaints and showing them the respect they deserve, should be considered excess staff," she told me. Neither did the veterans. They went ballistic, holding a rally for her outside the VA gates. Pretty soon, word came down from the top of the VA. Pam Murphy was no longer considered "excess staff." She remained working full time at the VA until 2007 when she was 87. "The last time she was here was a couple of years ago for the conference we had for homeless veterans," said Becky James, coordinator of the VA's Veterans History Project. Pam wanted to see if there was anything she could do to help some more of her boys. Dennis McCarthy's column appears Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Sunday. About Audie Murphy > http://www.warfoto.com/AudieMurphy.htm = =EF=BB _____ . We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. The Professional version does not have this message. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:39 PM PST US From: "lloyd silverman" Subject: Commander-List: VIBRATION HARRY, DYNAMIC BALANCE OF THE 500B RT ENGINE DID THE TRICK. NOTE THERE WAS A DIFFERENTIAL IN THE AMOUNT OF GREASE IN EACH BLADE HUB WHICH CORRECTING HELPED. IVE GOT ONE MORE PROBLEM ON THE RIGHT SIDE WHICH IS A PUZZLE . THE FUEL FLOW METER INDICATES 150pct OF NORMAL FOR ANY GIVEN POWER SETTING. ITS NOT THE METER AS I SWOPED LEFT WITH RIGHT AND THE PROBLEM FOLLOWED TO THE LEFT FLOW METER. ANY IDEAS WILL BE APPRECIATED. 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