Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:24 AM - Re: Facebook page (Barry Collman)
2. 04:37 AM - Re: Commander photos (Barry Collman)
3. 05:05 AM - Re: Commander photo / video (Barry Collman)
4. 06:13 AM - Re: Commander photo / video (BobsV35B@aol.com)
5. 08:23 AM - Re: Commander photo / video (Keith S. Gordon)
6. 08:43 AM - N6253X For Sale (Randy Dettmer, AIA)
7. 09:56 AM - Re: Commander photo / video (BobsV35B@aol.com)
8. 08:34 PM - Re: Commander photo / video (yourtcfg@aol.com)
9. 11:16 PM - Re: 2010 Flyin (Peter Bichier)
Message 1
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Hi Nico,
Grateful thanks for all your work on the Facebook page.
I've taken a relatively quick look and have added details of the "N" number,
Model, s/n and other items in the "Comments" box for some of them.
Others are not that easily identifiable though!
How about a separate links for photographs for each Model?
And perhaps, within each link, a further one for the brochures/adverts?
It would be 'fun' too, to put those unidentified examples in a separate link
to see how many can be positively identified!
It would give myself and Bert something to do during the cold, dark Winter
nights ;-)
Lastly, there's a link titled "Aero Commander Hawk, 810, 840 series".
Not sure what the "810" should be though.
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
cybersuperstore
Sent: 05 December 2010 04:50
Subject: Commander-List: Facebook page
Folks,
I added another bunch of photographs to the Aero Commander Facebook Page.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884
Click on the Like This button to be notified when new stuff goes up.
If you find anything out of place or duplicated, or have suggestions as how
to arrange things, I welcome suggestions.
Thanks
Nico
Message 2
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Subject: | Commander photos |
Hi Tom,
OK =93 grateful thanks.
If things progress towards getting this Commander airworthy again, then
no doubt all will be revealed via the paperwork submitted to the FAA.
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Fisher
Sent: 05 December 2010 21:25
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photos
The pressure system was entirely removed but as I no longer have the
logs I do not know when.
In addition to the 19" hole in the belly there is a 2' square hole cut
into the rear cabin bulkhead for some laser survey equipment it once had
installed.
The plane was bought by someone from the US, (I don't know if he wants
me to reveal his name at this point).
The plane is still sitting outside at the hanger I used without the
right prop, which I understand has been repaired.
The right gear strut is being held together by large straps until a new
one is put on, don't know the timing of it heading for the US.
I am hoping the new owner is going to buy the spare firewall forward 350
hour IO720 which is sitting in Florida and put it on the former GISS.
T...
----- Original Message -----
From: Barry Collman <mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk>
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander photos
Hi Tom,
Was the pressurization system completely removed from your 680FLP,
effectively converting it to a 680FL?
Or, was the system just not used after the camera installations were
made?
If the system was removed, can you recall the date?
I see that it has had N680JW Assigned by the US FAA as a valid Import
since March.
Any news on what=99s going to happen to it?
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom
Fisher
Sent: 04 December 2010 16:06
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photos
Formally FL"P"
Tom...
----- Original Message -----
From: BillLeff1@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 12:34 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photos
Oops, my mistake it is a Mr. RPM 680FLP
Bill Leff
Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless
-----Original message-----
From: Andrew & Bridget Watson <andrew.bridget@telus.net>
Sent: Fri, Dec 3, 2010 20:39:17 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photos
I thought Shrikes had eyebrow windows? Or did some earlier 500S models
come
out without them? Must be, if N560DR is a 500S.
I have 2 photos of Tom Fisher's late Commander, taken at the Abbotsford
Airshow in 2008 & 2009. The 2008 one is attached. I will send the 2009
one
in a separate e-mail.
Regards,
Andrew
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Bichier"
;
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:18 PM
Subject: Commander-List: Commander photos
> Hi Barry,
>
> I must admit it wasn't very clear to me either that you were looking
> for MORE Commander pictures; granted I'm relatively "new" to this
> group... but HEY it's not too late. So I'll start the ball rolling and
> all who are reading will follow how's that?
>
> First I have already shared the ones from my Dad's straight 560 #211
> (YV-T-ABE) I'm still looking for pictures of her when she was
> (YV-515P). If you two want those again, let me know.
>
> Here are two pictures of 1962 500A-B #1251-76 N37CK and 1968 500S
> #1817-23 N590DR taken both at St John's International Airport (VI22)
> taken 10 March 2010. I tried to get closer, but the guard at the gate
> told me since I was not embarking on a plane at the civilian side I
> had no business in there... So I parked the car as close as I could
> from the gate and took a picture from the roof of my rental (I can
> still see the guard waving at me asking WTF?)
>
> Doesn't seem that N37CK is going any where... where as N590DR had just
> landed (you can see the shows of the pilot if you look closely).
>
> Let me know when you receive them Sir. Always a pleasure to hear yours
> and everyone else's Commander stories,
>
> Peter
>
> PS. I am working on your other request as well.
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
>
>
=C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9E
_____
g(=93=C5-=C3=93M=C3=93Gq=C2=A2z=C3=81=C2=AE
www.aeroelectric.com
www.buildersbooks.com
www.homebuilthelp.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com
href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
href=
<http://www.matronics.com/chref=%22http:/www.matronics.com/Navigator?Co
mmander-List%22%3ehttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List>
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.
com/Navigator?Commander-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
Message 3
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Subject: | Commander photo / video |
Hi again Bob,
Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore
have no reference material here that would be of any help.
However, within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many
aspects of aviation and there is an online Forum called
=9CAB-IX=9D (Air-Britain Information Exchange).
People can ask questions they are unable to resolve themselves and the
vast majority of them get answered by other people who have the required
knowledge or expertise.
I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President
Eisenhower had a Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal.
One guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he
has available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and
Flying magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by
the President.
Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, doesn=99t remember
seeing any reference to Eisenhower using a Twin Bonanza in Beech
histories, literature or newsletters.
He did add though that the USAF did actually have at least one example
of the L-23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", had
extended floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955,
project ended 19Dec56.
This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza" 1998.
As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited Weston Executive
Airport, just outside Dublin, in June of 2008. On being accompanied
around the hangars my colleagues and I were shown a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC
, c/n AF258, Built 1952, formerly N9541Z and 51-11701A. She was named
Southern Comfort and carried USAF under the port wing. We were told
that this aircraft had been used at some time by President Eisenhower,
and whilst I cannot vouch for the authenticity of this story, we
accepted the comment at face value at the time.=9D
To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI first came across
this claim online and it accompanied a photo for sale of G-BSZC. They
claimed that it belonged "to ex-president Eisenhower and flown by Paul
Tibbet [sic Tibbets] of Enola Gay WWII." I'm not sure if the claim is
that Eisenhower flew in it while it was in service with SAC in the USAF
and he was President (1953-1961) or that he owned it as a civilian (he
retired to a farm in Gettysburg, PA & died in Mar69). According to FAA
files he didn't own it. Perhaps the USAF log book shows he flew in it,
that would be great if that could be confirmed.=9D
So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel sure that
one was not set aside for his permanent use.
The Commanders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific
purpose.
My feeling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used
and the Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air
Transport Group, 1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A
sister unit, the 1299th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew
the President=99s aides, Secret Service personnel and foreign
dignitaries.
However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, we in
Air-Britain would like to know more.
Does anybody have a copy of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward,
"Beechcraft Twin Bonanza", from 1998.)
Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book would highlight
that fact?
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: 05 December 2010 21:47
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video
Good Evening Barry,
My betting knowledge is no better than yours. I am not even certain of
the time frame. The one thing that I will bet on is that the T-Bone was
used by Eisenhower before the Aero Commander and that the T-Bone was
dumped in favor of the Aero Commander when Mamie skinned her shin. And
that was definitely after he was inaugurated
I received that information not only from Beechcraft sources, but from
Army aviators of the era. I do believe there was some argument between
the services as to how Army aviation functions were to be handled. I
also know that after Ike's election and before he was inaugurated, he
was allowed to visit Korea with Harry Truman's blessing to get a
personal view of how things were going. That would have been in the late
fall of 1952. While there, he was assigned a T-Bone and a pilot to fly
him around the country.
Of that, there is no doubt.
Rumor has it that Ike did fly the airplane from the left seat on
occasion. He held a civilian pilots license at that time and was current
in the single engine Bonanza. I think we can all agree that the T-Bone
is one of the most gentle airplanes ever. There is no way for me to
substantiate whether or not Ike flew the T-Bone from the left seat as
all official sources would certainly have denied that fact if it did
occur.
There was also considerable discussion that the main reason the
Columbine was a Connie instead of a DC-6 as was Harry's airplane (The
Independence) is because Rusty Draper had flown Eisenhower in a Connie
when Ike was a five star General.
There was considerable rumor that Ike often flew the Connie from the
left seat. Once again, you can be sure that all officialdom would keep
that rather quiet.
If you were a General Of The Armies and an avid aviator, don't you think
you might try the left seat occasionally? <G>
Flying magazine had an article in the early sixties written by a
military pilot who claimed to have checked out Ike in a Stearman during
his stint on MacArther's staff in the Philippines prior to WWII.. Said
it wasn't quite in compliance with Army regulations, but that Ike
handled the Stearman very well and flew it solo often.
Lots of rumors out there, but I would say there is a very high
probability that some of them are true.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/5/2010 2:16:47 P.M. Central Standard Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
Hi Bob,
No, the Army would not have flown Ike in one of the 520=99s.
I've not heard that Ike used a D 50 before!
All the references I've seen quote the Commander as being the first
twin-engine aircraft considered safe enough for Presidential use.
The D-50 was designated as the L-23 for the US Army. Did the USAF
actually have any?
I ask because, in those days, I think US Army aviation was controlled by
the USAF and I think all Presidential flights were carried out by the
USAF.
But then, my knowledge of matters military is not too good (the back of
a postage stamp scenario).
Best Regards,
Barry
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Commander photo / video |
Good Morning Barry,
While I am confident that the story about Ike using a T-Bone to fly around
Korea is accurate and that he used one to fly to Camp David is accurate,
I
doubt very much if any individual airplane was assigned to the operation.
Chances are it was a routine Army airplane. As I said before, I heard th
e
story from Army pilots, not Air Force personnel. The Army had a whole pas
sel
of T-Bones! <G>
When Mamie skinned her shin, the decision was made to get the Aero
Commander to eliminate the climb up those original "steps on a stick".
Beech even
redesigned the access to the D50 because of it, but the damage was done.
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the
D50 than anyone else I ever met.
I am fairly familiar with Twin Beech history and I am confident that there
was never a Twin Beech specifically assigned to Ike. I would imagine that
he did fly in one every now and then. It was hard to be in the Army duri
ng
WWII without getting in a DC-3 or a Twin Beech on occasion. He also flew
in
various liaison aircraft whenever it was appropriate to do so.
I also doubt that Paul Tibbets would have done any flying with Ike. Rusty
Draper was his pilot during WWII and he chose him to fly the Columbine as
well. If anyone would have done any flying for Ike after he left the
presidency, it would have been Rusty.
The only airplanes he was assigned with which I am familiar were the
Connie he used as General Of The Armies and the Columbine he used as Pres
ident.
I have tried to locate the serial number of the Bonanza he used to commute
between his home at Gettysburg and Teterboro when he was President of
Columbia University, but have never found any proof of his ownership. It
is
quite possible that the Bonanza was a leased aircraft and he only used it
for a
very short time.
We have a small amount of D50 material at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum
and I will try to see what might be there next time I get to Tullahoma.
I have discussed the Eisenhower use of a T-Bone in Korea and the initial
use of a T-Bone for use to get to Camp David with several Beechcraft old
timers when I attended schools or sales events at the factory.
However, I know of no written documentation of the Mamie incident.
I am absolutely confident it occurred and that Ike did use a T-Bone for
at
least the first flying trip to Camp David.
By the way. Are you familiar with the use Colonel Robert R McCormick made
of an Aero Commander to commute from Wheaton, Illinois, to Chicago's Meigs
Field to work every day?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:05:38 A.M. Central Standard Time,
barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
Hi again Bob,
Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore
have no
reference material here that would be of any help.
However, within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many
aspects of aviation and there is an online Forum called =9CAB-IX
=9D (Air-Britain
Information Exchange).
People can ask questions they are unable to resolve themselves and the
vast majority of them get answered by other people who have the required
knowledge or expertise.
I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President Eisenhower
had a Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal.
One guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he
has available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and
Flying magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by
the
President.
Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, doesn=99t remember see
ing any
reference to Eisenhower using a Twin Bonanza in Beech histories, literatu
re
or newsletters.
He did add though that the USAF did actually have at least one example of
the L-23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", had
extended floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955, proj
ect
ended 19Dec56.
This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza" 1998.
As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited Weston Executive Airport
, just
outside Dublin, in June of 2008. On being accompanied around the hangars
my
colleagues and I were shown a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC , c/n AF258, Built 1952,
formerly N9541Z and 51-11701A. She was named Southern Comfort and carried
USAF under the port wing. We were told that this aircraft had been used
at
some time by President Eisenhower, and whilst I cannot vouch for the
authenticity of this story, we accepted the comment at face value at the
time.=9D
To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI first came across thi
s claim
online and it accompanied a photo for sale of G-BSZC. They claimed that
it
belonged "to ex-president Eisenhower and flown by Paul Tibbet [sic Tibbet
s]
of Enola Gay WWII." I'm not sure if the claim is that Eisenhower flew in
it
while it was in service with SAC in the USAF and he was President
(1953-1961) or that he owned it as a civilian (he retired to a farm in Ge
ttysburg,
PA & died in Mar69). According to FAA files he didn't own it. Perhaps the
USAF log book shows he flew in it, that would be great if that could be
confirmed.=9D
So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel sure that one
was not set aside for his permanent use.
The Commanders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific
purpose.
My feeling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used
and the
Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air Transport
Group, 1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A sister unit,
the
1299th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew the President
=99s aides,
Secret Service personnel and foreign dignitaries.
However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, we in
Air-Britain would like to know more.
Does anybody have a copy of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward,
"Beechcraft Twin Bonanza", from 1998.)
Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book would highlight that
fact?
Best Regards,
Barry
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Commander photo / video |
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the
D50 than anyone else I ever met.
Old Bob,
Sometimes bad news travels slowly. I wasn't aware that Dick Ward had gone
West. In the early days (as in 1996) of the Twin Commander Flight Group
he and I spoke many times and shared resources that the two brands -- Bee
ch and Aero Commander -- had in common. At one time we discussed a joint
fly-in event so T-Bone and bathtub nacelled Commander owners could show
the engine, prop, parts and service providers our fleet numbers.
We had a most friendly rivalry and I'm sorry to learn I won't be jousting
with him any longer over why the Aero Commander was soooooo much better
than the T-Bone.
Best to you -- and thank you for dropping in with your wit and wisdom ever
y now and then.
Keith S. Gordon
aka Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 6:11 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video
Good Morning Barry,
While I am confident that the story about Ike using a T-Bone to fly around
Korea is accurate and that he used one to fly to Camp David is accurate,
I doubt very much if any individual airplane was assigned to the operatio
n. Chances are it was a routine Army airplane. As I said before, I heard
the story from Army pilots, not Air Force personnel. The Army had a whole
passel of T-Bones! <G>
When Mamie skinned her shin, the decision was made to get the Aero Command
er to eliminate the climb up those original "steps on a stick". Beech eve
n redesigned the access to the D50 because of it, but the damage was done
.
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the
D50 than anyone else I ever met.
I am fairly familiar with Twin Beech history and I am confident that there
was never a Twin Beech specifically assigned to Ike. I would imagine that
he did fly in one every now and then. It was hard to be in the Army duri
ng WWII without getting in a DC-3 or a Twin Beech on occasion. He also fle
w in various liaison aircraft whenever it was appropriate to do so.
I also doubt that Paul Tibbets would have done any flying with Ike. Rusty
Draper was his pilot during WWII and he chose him to fly the Columbine as
well. If anyone would have done any flying for Ike after he left the pres
idency, it would have been Rusty.
The only airplanes he was assigned with which I am familiar were the Conni
e he used as General Of The Armies and the Columbine he used as President.
I have tried to locate the serial number of the Bonanza he used to commute
between his home at Gettysburg and Teterboro when he was President of Col
umbia University, but have never found any proof of his ownership. It is
quite possible that the Bonanza was a leased aircraft and he only used it
for a very short time.
We have a small amount of D50 material at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum
and I will try to see what might be there next time I get to Tullahoma.
I have discussed the Eisenhower use of a T-Bone in Korea and the initial
use of a T-Bone for use to get to Camp David with several Beechcraft old
timers when I attended schools or sales events at the factory.
However, I know of no written documentation of the Mamie incident.
I am absolutely confident it occurred and that Ike did use a T-Bone for at
least the first flying trip to Camp David.
By the way. Are you familiar with the use Colonel Robert R McCormick made
of an Aero Commander to commute from Wheaton, Illinois, to Chicago's Meig
s Field to work every day?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:05:38 A.M. Central Standard Time, barry.col
lman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
Hi again Bob,
Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore
have no reference material here that would be of any help.
However, within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many asp
ects of aviation and there is an online Forum called =9CAB-IX
=9D (Air-Britain Information Exchange).
People can ask questions they are unable to resolve themselves and the
vast majority of them get answered by other people who have the require
d knowledge or expertise.
I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President Eisenhowe
r had a Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal.
One guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he
has available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and
Flying magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by
the President.
Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, doesn=99t remember se
eing any reference to Eisenhower using a Twin Bonanza in Beech histories
, literature or newsletters.
He did add though that the USAF did actually have at least one example
of the L-23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", ha
d extended floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955,
project ended 19Dec56.
This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza" 1998.
As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited Weston Executive Airpor
t, just outside Dublin, in June of 2008. On being accompanied around the
hangars my colleagues and I were shown a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC , c/n AF25
8, Built 1952, formerly N9541Z and 51-11701A. She was named Southern Com
fort and carried USAF under the port wing. We were told that this aircr
aft had been used at some time by President Eisenhower, and whilst I can
not vouch for the authenticity of this story, we accepted the comment at
face value at the time.=9D
To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI first came across th
is claim online and it accompanied a photo for sale of G-BSZC. They clai
med that it belonged "to ex-president Eisenhower and flown by Paul Tibbet
[sic Tibbets] of Enola Gay WWII." I'm not sure if the claim is that Eis
enhower flew in it while it was in service with SAC in the USAF and he
was President (1953-1961) or that he owned it as a civilian (he retired
to a farm in Gettysburg, PA & died in Mar69). According to FAA files he
didn't own it. Perhaps the USAF log book shows he flew in it, that woul
d be great if that could be confirmed.=9D
So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel sure that on
e was not set aside for his permanent use.
The Commanders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific purpo
se.
My feeling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used
and the Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air
Transport Group, 1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A si
ster unit, the 1299th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew the
President=99s aides, Secret Service personnel and foreign digni
taries.
However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, we in Air-B
ritain would like to know more.
Does anybody have a copy of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward, "B
eechcraft Twin Bonanza", from 1998.)
Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book would highlight tha
t fact?
Best Regards,
Barry
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Message 6
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Fellow Commander Colleagues,
After 11 years of faithful service, I have decided to put N6253X up for
sale. Here are some quick specs:
1961 680F
Approx 4,000 hrs total time / 150 hours SMOH
Decent paint / good interior
Collins nav/coms, HSI, coupled GPS, C-3 Autopilot, etc.
Flown regularly - generally in very good shape
Asking $150,000.00
Pictures and more information to follow.
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680f / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Commander photo / video |
Good Morning Keith,
We lost Dick in 2008.
Miss him too.
And: ---- I like both machines! Flew them a lot back in the fifties and
sixties.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/6/2010 10:24:14 A.M. Central Standard Time,
cloudcraft@aol.com writes:
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the
D50 than anyone else I ever met.
Old Bob,
Sometimes bad news travels slowly. I wasn't aware that Dick Ward had gon
e
West. In the early days (as in 1996) of the Twin Commander Flight Group
he and I spoke many times and shared resources that the two brands -- Beec
h
and Aero Commander -- had in common. At one time we discussed a joint
fly-in event so T-Bone and bathtub nacelled Commander owners could show th
e
engine, prop, parts and service providers our fleet numbers.
We had a most friendly rivalry and I'm sorry to learn I won't be jousting
with him any longer over why the Aero Commander was soooooo much better
than the T-Bone.
Best to you -- and thank you for dropping in with your wit and wisdom
every now and then.
Keith S. Gordon
aka Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 6:11 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video
Good Morning Barry,
While I am confident that the story about Ike using a T-Bone to fly aroun
d
Korea is accurate and that he used one to fly to Camp David is accurate,
I
doubt very much if any individual airplane was assigned to the operation.
Chances are it was a routine Army airplane. As I said before, I heard th
e
story from Army pilots, not Air Force personnel. The Army had a whole
passel of T-Bones! <G>
When Mamie skinned her shin, the decision was made to get the Aero
Commander to eliminate the climb up those original "steps on a stick".
Beech even
redesigned the access to the D50 because of it, but the damage was done.
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the
D50 than anyone else I ever met.
I am fairly familiar with Twin Beech history and I am confident that ther
e
was never a Twin Beech specifically assigned to Ike. I would imagine that
he did fly in one every now and then. It was hard to be in the Army duri
ng
WWII without getting in a DC-3 or a Twin Beech on occasion. He also flew
in various liaison aircraft whenever it was appropriate to do so.
I also doubt that Paul Tibbets would have done any flying with Ike. Rusty
Draper was his pilot during WWII and he chose him to fly the Columbine as
well. If anyone would have done any flying for Ike after he left the
presidency, it would have been Rusty.
The only airplanes he was assigned with which I am familiar were the
Connie he used as General Of The Armies and the Columbine he used as Pres
ident.
I have tried to locate the serial number of the Bonanza he used to commut
e
between his home at Gettysburg and Teterboro when he was President of
Columbia University, but have never found any proof of his ownership. It
is
quite possible that the Bonanza was a leased aircraft and he only used it
for
a very short time.
We have a small amount of D50 material at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum
and I will try to see what might be there next time I get to Tullahoma.
I have discussed the Eisenhower use of a T-Bone in Korea and the initial
use of a T-Bone for use to get to Camp David with several Beechcraft old
timers when I attended schools or sales events at the factory.
However, I know of no written documentation of the Mamie incident.
I am absolutely confident it occurred and that Ike did use a T-Bone for
at
least the first flying trip to Camp David.
By the way. Are you familiar with the use Colonel Robert R McCormick made
of an Aero Commander to commute from Wheaton, Illinois, to Chicago's Meigs
Field to work every day?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:05:38 A.M. Central Standard Time,
_barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk_ (mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk)
writes:
Hi again Bob,
Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore
have no
reference material here that would be of any help.
However, within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many
aspects of aviation and there is an online Forum called =9CAB-IX
=9D (Air-Britain
Information Exchange).
People can ask questions they are unable to resolve themselves and the
vast majority of them get answered by other people who have the required
knowledge or expertise.
I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President Eisenhower
had a Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal.
One guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he
has available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and
Flying magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by
the
President.
Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, doesn=99t remember see
ing any
reference to Eisenhower using a Twin Bonanza in Beech histories, literatu
re
or newsletters.
He did add though that the USAF did actually have at least one example of
the L-23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", had
extended floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955, proj
ect
ended 19Dec56.
This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza" 1998.
As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited Weston Executive Airport
, just
outside Dublin, in June of 2008. On being accompanied around the hangars
my
colleagues and I were shown a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC , c/n AF258, Built 1952,
formerly N9541Z and 51-11701A. She was named Southern Comfort and carried
USAF under the port wing. We were told that this aircraft had been used
at
some time by President Eisenhower, and whilst I cannot vouch for the
authenticity of this story, we accepted the comment at face value at the
time.=9D
To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI first came across thi
s claim
online and it accompanied a photo for sale of G-BSZC. They claimed that
it
belonged "to ex-president Eisenhower and flown by Paul Tibbet [sic Tibbet
s]
of Enola Gay WWII." I'm not sure if the claim is that Eisenhower flew in
it
while it was in service with SAC in the USAF and he was President
(1953-1961) or that he owned it as a civilian (he retired to a farm in Ge
ttysburg,
PA & died in Mar69). According to FAA files he didn't own it. Perhaps the
USAF log book shows he flew in it, that would be great if that could be
confirmed.=9D
So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel sure that one
was not set aside for his permanent use.
The Commanders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific purpos
e.
My feeling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used
and the
Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air Transport
Group, 1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A sister unit,
the
1299th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew the President
=99s aides,
Secret Service personnel and foreign dignitaries.
However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, we in
Air-Britain would like to know more.
Does anybody have a copy of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward,
"Beechcraft Twin Bonanza", from 1998.)
Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book would highlight that
fact?
Best Regards,
Barry
========================
===========
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========================
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============
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Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Commander photo / video |
I too Miss Dick. We often exchanged newsletter articles and he was a genu
ine Gentleman. Now, I have been reading with great interest so post regar
ding Ike and if he flew a T bone. Since none of us were there it is safe
to say that I doubt minds will be changed. However, I have in my possess
ion a great little book titled "The Flying White house" by Col.Ralph Alber
tazzie, an Air Force One pilot. The book chronicles the history of A.F.O.
It is a great book, well written and factual. The author has no allegia
nce to any airplane (except maybe the Boeing 707).
There are a few pages devoted to the history of the Aero Commander, and...
..... the T bone! I wish I could type faster, I would love to share all
that is written on the subject, but will need to share only paraphrased
excerpts. So, here we go. "Not generally know is that Eke had several ot
her presidential aircraft- each of them them a speedy twin propeller L-26
Aero Commander" "The light, little planes were already popular with mili
tary brass for short distance flights" When Ike acquired his farm near Ge
ttysburg, it took only a few trip to convince him a faster way of getting
there had to be found" "The secret service was worried about the safety
of small aircraft for presidential use, they would not let the president
fly in any airplane with less than four engines" "But Ike was insistant
and, there had to be a faster way" "I know ther are small aircraft that
can do the trick" Ike told James Rowley "I know you have reservations,
so find a model that suits us both" "After months of test flying, and st
udy, the secret service and the FAA selected the AERO COMMANDER as the mos
t suitable aircraft" "On Mat 23 1955 an order was placed but to ease Ikes
impatience, a demonstrator, N2724B was leased to the Whiter House" "And
so on June 3 1955, a president cf the United States flew for the first ti
me in light aircraft" "With two pilots and Rowley accompaning Ike, they
made the seventy two mike trip in twenty three minutes" "The AERO COMMAN
DER landed on the sod runway at Gettysburg followed closely by another AER
O COMMANDER with three more secret service agents, plus several Beechcraft
L-23, Twin Bonnanzas with a delegation of reporters to record the histori
c airlift" So, you see, the government did in fact believe that Twin Bona
nazas were safe enough for THE PRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After his heart atta
ck in July of 1956, a bed was installed in Ikes AERO COMMANDER so he could
still travel to the farm, a feat impossible in a Bone. There is much mor
e information about the AERO COMMANDER and there presidential use includin
g the fact that even today's 747 are painted in a very simallr paint schem
e. There is mention of him flying a Stearman, but NO mention of him EVER
flying re even being allowed to ride in a Twin Bonanza While he was clea
rly around both types, the Commander was his airplane of choice. sorry
BTW, I think Bones are great airplanes too!!!!
;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 9:52 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video
Good Morning Keith,
We lost Dick in 2008.
Miss him too.
And: ---- I like both machines! Flew them a lot back in the fifties and
sixties.
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/6/2010 10:24:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, cloudcra
ft@aol.com writes:
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the
D50 than anyone else I ever met.
Old Bob,
Sometimes bad news travels slowly. I wasn't aware that Dick Ward had gone
West. In the early days (as in 1996) of the Twin Commander Flight Group
he and I spoke many times and shared resources that the two brands -- Bee
ch and Aero Commander -- had in common. At one time we discussed a joint
fly-in event so T-Bone and bathtub nacelled Commander owners could show
the engine, prop, parts and service providers our fleet numbers.
We had a most friendly rivalry and I'm sorry to learn I won't be jousting
with him any longer over why the Aero Commander was soooooo much better
than the T-Bone.
Best to you -- and thank you for dropping in with your wit and wisdom ever
y now and then.
Keith S. Gordon
aka Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
NBAA Access Committee
Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep
Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep
-----Original Message-----
From: BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 6:11 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video
Good Morning Barry,
While I am confident that the story about Ike using a T-Bone to fly around
Korea is accurate and that he used one to fly to Camp David is accurate,
I doubt very much if any individual airplane was assigned to the operatio
n. Chances are it was a routine Army airplane. As I said before, I heard
the story from Army pilots, not Air Force personnel. The Army had a whole
passel of T-Bones! <G>
When Mamie skinned her shin, the decision was made to get the Aero Command
er to eliminate the climb up those original "steps on a stick". Beech eve
n redesigned the access to the D50 because of it, but the damage was done
.
It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the
D50 than anyone else I ever met.
I am fairly familiar with Twin Beech history and I am confident that there
was never a Twin Beech specifically assigned to Ike. I would imagine that
he did fly in one every now and then. It was hard to be in the Army duri
ng WWII without getting in a DC-3 or a Twin Beech on occasion. He also fle
w in various liaison aircraft whenever it was appropriate to do so.
I also doubt that Paul Tibbets would have done any flying with Ike. Rusty
Draper was his pilot during WWII and he chose him to fly the Columbine as
well. If anyone would have done any flying for Ike after he left the pres
idency, it would have been Rusty.
The only airplanes he was assigned with which I am familiar were the Conni
e he used as General Of The Armies and the Columbine he used as President.
I have tried to locate the serial number of the Bonanza he used to commute
between his home at Gettysburg and Teterboro when he was President of Col
umbia University, but have never found any proof of his ownership. It is
quite possible that the Bonanza was a leased aircraft and he only used it
for a very short time.
We have a small amount of D50 material at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum
and I will try to see what might be there next time I get to Tullahoma.
I have discussed the Eisenhower use of a T-Bone in Korea and the initial
use of a T-Bone for use to get to Camp David with several Beechcraft old
timers when I attended schools or sales events at the factory.
However, I know of no written documentation of the Mamie incident.
I am absolutely confident it occurred and that Ike did use a T-Bone for at
least the first flying trip to Camp David.
By the way. Are you familiar with the use Colonel Robert R McCormick made
of an Aero Commander to commute from Wheaton, Illinois, to Chicago's Meig
s Field to work every day?
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:05:38 A.M. Central Standard Time, barry.col
lman@air-britain.co.uk writes:
Hi again Bob,
Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore
have no reference material here that would be of any help.
However, within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many aspec
ts of aviation and there is an online Forum called =9CAB-IX=9D
(Air-Britain Information Exchange).
People can ask questions they are unable to resolve themselves and the vas
t majority of them get answered by other people who have the required know
ledge or expertise.
I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President Eisenhower
had a Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal.
One guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he
has available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and Fly
ing magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by the
President.
Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, doesn=99t remember seei
ng any reference to Eisenhower using a Twin Bonanza in Beech histories, li
terature or newsletters.
He did add though that the USAF did actually have at least one example of
the L-23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", had ext
ended floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955, project
ended 19Dec56.
This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza" 1998.
As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited Weston Executive Airport,
just outside Dublin, in June of 2008. On being accompanied around the han
gars my colleagues and I were shown a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC , c/n AF258, Bui
lt 1952, formerly N9541Z and 51-11701A. She was named Southern Comfort and
carried USAF under the port wing. We were told that this aircraft had be
en used at some time by President Eisenhower, and whilst I cannot vouch fo
r the authenticity of this story, we accepted the comment at face value at
the time.=9D
To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI first came across this
claim online and it accompanied a photo for sale of G-BSZC. They claimed
that it belonged "to ex-president Eisenhower and flown by Paul Tibbet [si
c Tibbets] of Enola Gay WWII." I'm not sure if the claim is that Eisenhowe
r flew in it while it was in service with SAC in the USAF and he was Presi
dent (1953-1961) or that he owned it as a civilian (he retired to a farm
in Gettysburg, PA & died in Mar69). According to FAA files he didn't own
it. Perhaps the USAF log book shows he flew in it, that would be great if
that could be confirmed.=9D
So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel sure that one
was not set aside for his permanent use.
The Commanders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific purpose
.
My feeling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used an
d the Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air Trans
port Group, 1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A sister uni
t, the 1299th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew the President
=99s aides, Secret Service personnel and foreign dignitaries.
However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, we in Air-Bri
tain would like to know more.
Does anybody have a copy of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward, "Bee
chcraft Twin Bonanza", from 1998.)
Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book would highlight that
fact?
Best Regards,
Barry
========================
===========
ic.com">www.aeroelectric.com
w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com
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========================
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========================
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/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com
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p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
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Message 9
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Moe we missed you too, specially at the banquet! (I'm sure you recognized your
old "pick-up" Golden friend!
Hope 680RR is flying along straight (when not on the ground) and I'm sure we'll
see you again, hope your time also paid off... (I won't start a slippery slope
here)
Morris, hope you're also reading this since this link is mostly for you. For the
others, on every fly in we always have a "field trip."
In Oklahoma we went to see the "blue Goose" (AC prototype been restored with the
$ we contribute at the banquet).
In Carson City of course, there was Bob Hoover and do I have to say Reno?
In Hillsboro, it was a nice trip through Pinot Noir country to the Evergreen Aviation
Museum to see well another Goose; check it out!
http://picasaweb.google.com/YVABE560/EvergreenAirMuseum10?feat=directlink
Hasta luego,
P.
--------
560 Dreamer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322561#322561
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