---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/06/10: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:24 AM - Re: Facebook page (Barry Collman) 2. 04:37 AM - Re: Commander photos (Barry Collman) 3. 05:05 AM - Re: Commander photo / video (Barry Collman) 4. 06:13 AM - Re: Commander photo / video (BobsV35B@aol.com) 5. 08:23 AM - Re: Commander photo / video (Keith S. Gordon) 6. 08:43 AM - N6253X For Sale (Randy Dettmer, AIA) 7. 09:56 AM - Re: Commander photo / video (BobsV35B@aol.com) 8. 08:34 PM - Re: Commander photo / video (yourtcfg@aol.com) 9. 11:16 PM - Re: 2010 Flyin (Peter Bichier) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:45 AM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Facebook page Hi Nico, Grateful thanks for all your work on the Facebook page. I've taken a relatively quick look and have added details of the "N" number, Model, s/n and other items in the "Comments" box for some of them. Others are not that easily identifiable though! How about a separate links for photographs for each Model? And perhaps, within each link, a further one for the brochures/adverts? It would be 'fun' too, to put those unidentified examples in a separate link to see how many can be positively identified! It would give myself and Bert something to do during the cold, dark Winter nights ;-) Lastly, there's a link titled "Aero Commander Hawk, 810, 840 series". Not sure what the "810" should be though. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of cybersuperstore Sent: 05 December 2010 04:50 Subject: Commander-List: Facebook page Folks, I added another bunch of photographs to the Aero Commander Facebook Page. http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884 Click on the Like This button to be notified when new stuff goes up. If you find anything out of place or duplicated, or have suggestions as how to arrange things, I welcome suggestions. Thanks Nico ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:07 AM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander photos Hi Tom, OK =93 grateful thanks. If things progress towards getting this Commander airworthy again, then no doubt all will be revealed via the paperwork submitted to the FAA. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: 05 December 2010 21:25 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photos The pressure system was entirely removed but as I no longer have the logs I do not know when. In addition to the 19" hole in the belly there is a 2' square hole cut into the rear cabin bulkhead for some laser survey equipment it once had installed. The plane was bought by someone from the US, (I don't know if he wants me to reveal his name at this point). The plane is still sitting outside at the hanger I used without the right prop, which I understand has been repaired. The right gear strut is being held together by large straps until a new one is put on, don't know the timing of it heading for the US. I am hoping the new owner is going to buy the spare firewall forward 350 hour IO720 which is sitting in Florida and put it on the former GISS. T... ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 12:21 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander photos Hi Tom, Was the pressurization system completely removed from your 680FLP, effectively converting it to a 680FL? Or, was the system just not used after the camera installations were made? If the system was removed, can you recall the date? I see that it has had N680JW Assigned by the US FAA as a valid Import since March. Any news on what=99s going to happen to it? Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: 04 December 2010 16:06 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photos Formally FL"P" Tom... ----- Original Message ----- From: BillLeff1@aol.com Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 12:34 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photos Oops, my mistake it is a Mr. RPM 680FLP Bill Leff Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: Andrew & Bridget Watson Sent: Fri, Dec 3, 2010 20:39:17 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photos I thought Shrikes had eyebrow windows? Or did some earlier 500S models come out without them? Must be, if N560DR is a 500S. I have 2 photos of Tom Fisher's late Commander, taken at the Abbotsford Airshow in 2008 & 2009. The 2008 one is attached. I will send the 2009 one in a separate e-mail. Regards, Andrew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Bichier" ; Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:18 PM Subject: Commander-List: Commander photos > Hi Barry, > > I must admit it wasn't very clear to me either that you were looking > for MORE Commander pictures; granted I'm relatively "new" to this > group... but HEY it's not too late. So I'll start the ball rolling and > all who are reading will follow how's that? > > First I have already shared the ones from my Dad's straight 560 #211 > (YV-T-ABE) I'm still looking for pictures of her when she was > (YV-515P). If you two want those again, let me know. > > Here are two pictures of 1962 500A-B #1251-76 N37CK and 1968 500S > #1817-23 N590DR taken both at St John's International Airport (VI22) > taken 10 March 2010. I tried to get closer, but the guard at the gate > told me since I was not embarking on a plane at the civilian side I > had no business in there... So I parked the car as close as I could > from the gate and took a picture from the roof of my rental (I can > still see the guard waving at me asking WTF?) > > Doesn't seem that N37CK is going any where... where as N590DR had just > landed (you can see the shows of the pilot if you look closely). > > Let me know when you receive them Sir. Always a pleasure to hear yours > and everyone else's Commander stories, > > Peter > > PS. I am working on your other request as well. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > > =C2=C2=B7=BA~=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9E _____ g(=93=C5-=C3=93M=C3=93Gq=C2=A2z=C3=81=C2=AE www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c href= "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:02 AM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander photo / video Hi again Bob, Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore have no reference material here that would be of any help. However, within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many aspects of aviation and there is an online Forum called =9CAB-IX=9D (Air-Britain Information Exchange). People can ask questions they are unable to resolve themselves and the vast majority of them get answered by other people who have the required knowledge or expertise. I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President Eisenhower had a Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal. One guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he has available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and Flying magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by the President. Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, doesn=99t remember seeing any reference to Eisenhower using a Twin Bonanza in Beech histories, literature or newsletters. He did add though that the USAF did actually have at least one example of the L-23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", had extended floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955, project ended 19Dec56. This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza" 1998. As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited Weston Executive Airport, just outside Dublin, in June of 2008. On being accompanied around the hangars my colleagues and I were shown a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC , c/n AF258, Built 1952, formerly N9541Z and 51-11701A. She was named Southern Comfort and carried USAF under the port wing. We were told that this aircraft had been used at some time by President Eisenhower, and whilst I cannot vouch for the authenticity of this story, we accepted the comment at face value at the time.=9D To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI first came across this claim online and it accompanied a photo for sale of G-BSZC. They claimed that it belonged "to ex-president Eisenhower and flown by Paul Tibbet [sic Tibbets] of Enola Gay WWII." I'm not sure if the claim is that Eisenhower flew in it while it was in service with SAC in the USAF and he was President (1953-1961) or that he owned it as a civilian (he retired to a farm in Gettysburg, PA & died in Mar69). According to FAA files he didn't own it. Perhaps the USAF log book shows he flew in it, that would be great if that could be confirmed.=9D So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel sure that one was not set aside for his permanent use. The Commanders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific purpose. My feeling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used and the Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air Transport Group, 1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A sister unit, the 1299th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew the President=99s aides, Secret Service personnel and foreign dignitaries. However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, we in Air-Britain would like to know more. Does anybody have a copy of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward, "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza", from 1998.) Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book would highlight that fact? Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: 05 December 2010 21:47 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video Good Evening Barry, My betting knowledge is no better than yours. I am not even certain of the time frame. The one thing that I will bet on is that the T-Bone was used by Eisenhower before the Aero Commander and that the T-Bone was dumped in favor of the Aero Commander when Mamie skinned her shin. And that was definitely after he was inaugurated I received that information not only from Beechcraft sources, but from Army aviators of the era. I do believe there was some argument between the services as to how Army aviation functions were to be handled. I also know that after Ike's election and before he was inaugurated, he was allowed to visit Korea with Harry Truman's blessing to get a personal view of how things were going. That would have been in the late fall of 1952. While there, he was assigned a T-Bone and a pilot to fly him around the country. Of that, there is no doubt. Rumor has it that Ike did fly the airplane from the left seat on occasion. He held a civilian pilots license at that time and was current in the single engine Bonanza. I think we can all agree that the T-Bone is one of the most gentle airplanes ever. There is no way for me to substantiate whether or not Ike flew the T-Bone from the left seat as all official sources would certainly have denied that fact if it did occur. There was also considerable discussion that the main reason the Columbine was a Connie instead of a DC-6 as was Harry's airplane (The Independence) is because Rusty Draper had flown Eisenhower in a Connie when Ike was a five star General. There was considerable rumor that Ike often flew the Connie from the left seat. Once again, you can be sure that all officialdom would keep that rather quiet. If you were a General Of The Armies and an avid aviator, don't you think you might try the left seat occasionally? Flying magazine had an article in the early sixties written by a military pilot who claimed to have checked out Ike in a Stearman during his stint on MacArther's staff in the Philippines prior to WWII.. Said it wasn't quite in compliance with Army regulations, but that Ike handled the Stearman very well and flew it solo often. Lots of rumors out there, but I would say there is a very high probability that some of them are true. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/5/2010 2:16:47 P.M. Central Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: Hi Bob, No, the Army would not have flown Ike in one of the 520=99s. I've not heard that Ike used a D 50 before! All the references I've seen quote the Commander as being the first twin-engine aircraft considered safe enough for Presidential use. The D-50 was designated as the L-23 for the US Army. Did the USAF actually have any? I ask because, in those days, I think US Army aviation was controlled by the USAF and I think all Presidential flights were carried out by the USAF. But then, my knowledge of matters military is not too good (the back of a postage stamp scenario). Best Regards, Barry ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:50 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video Good Morning Barry, While I am confident that the story about Ike using a T-Bone to fly around Korea is accurate and that he used one to fly to Camp David is accurate, I doubt very much if any individual airplane was assigned to the operation. Chances are it was a routine Army airplane. As I said before, I heard th e story from Army pilots, not Air Force personnel. The Army had a whole pas sel of T-Bones! When Mamie skinned her shin, the decision was made to get the Aero Commander to eliminate the climb up those original "steps on a stick". Beech even redesigned the access to the D50 because of it, but the damage was done. It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the D50 than anyone else I ever met. I am fairly familiar with Twin Beech history and I am confident that there was never a Twin Beech specifically assigned to Ike. I would imagine that he did fly in one every now and then. It was hard to be in the Army duri ng WWII without getting in a DC-3 or a Twin Beech on occasion. He also flew in various liaison aircraft whenever it was appropriate to do so. I also doubt that Paul Tibbets would have done any flying with Ike. Rusty Draper was his pilot during WWII and he chose him to fly the Columbine as well. If anyone would have done any flying for Ike after he left the presidency, it would have been Rusty. The only airplanes he was assigned with which I am familiar were the Connie he used as General Of The Armies and the Columbine he used as Pres ident. I have tried to locate the serial number of the Bonanza he used to commute between his home at Gettysburg and Teterboro when he was President of Columbia University, but have never found any proof of his ownership. It is quite possible that the Bonanza was a leased aircraft and he only used it for a very short time. We have a small amount of D50 material at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum and I will try to see what might be there next time I get to Tullahoma. I have discussed the Eisenhower use of a T-Bone in Korea and the initial use of a T-Bone for use to get to Camp David with several Beechcraft old timers when I attended schools or sales events at the factory. However, I know of no written documentation of the Mamie incident. I am absolutely confident it occurred and that Ike did use a T-Bone for at least the first flying trip to Camp David. By the way. Are you familiar with the use Colonel Robert R McCormick made of an Aero Commander to commute from Wheaton, Illinois, to Chicago's Meigs Field to work every day? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:05:38 A.M. Central Standard Time, barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk writes: Hi again Bob, Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore have no reference material here that would be of any help. However, within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many aspects of aviation and there is an online Forum called =9CAB-IX =9D (Air-Britain Information Exchange). People can ask questions they are unable to resolve themselves and the vast majority of them get answered by other people who have the required knowledge or expertise. I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President Eisenhower had a Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal. One guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he has available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and Flying magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by the President. Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, doesn=99t remember see ing any reference to Eisenhower using a Twin Bonanza in Beech histories, literatu re or newsletters. He did add though that the USAF did actually have at least one example of the L-23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", had extended floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955, proj ect ended 19Dec56. This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza" 1998. As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited Weston Executive Airport , just outside Dublin, in June of 2008. On being accompanied around the hangars my colleagues and I were shown a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC , c/n AF258, Built 1952, formerly N9541Z and 51-11701A. She was named Southern Comfort and carried USAF under the port wing. We were told that this aircraft had been used at some time by President Eisenhower, and whilst I cannot vouch for the authenticity of this story, we accepted the comment at face value at the time.=9D To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI first came across thi s claim online and it accompanied a photo for sale of G-BSZC. They claimed that it belonged "to ex-president Eisenhower and flown by Paul Tibbet [sic Tibbet s] of Enola Gay WWII." I'm not sure if the claim is that Eisenhower flew in it while it was in service with SAC in the USAF and he was President (1953-1961) or that he owned it as a civilian (he retired to a farm in Ge ttysburg, PA & died in Mar69). According to FAA files he didn't own it. Perhaps the USAF log book shows he flew in it, that would be great if that could be confirmed.=9D So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel sure that one was not set aside for his permanent use. The Commanders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific purpose. My feeling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used and the Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air Transport Group, 1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A sister unit, the 1299th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew the President =99s aides, Secret Service personnel and foreign dignitaries. However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, we in Air-Britain would like to know more. Does anybody have a copy of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward, "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza", from 1998.) Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book would highlight that fact? Best Regards, Barry ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video From: "Keith S. Gordon" It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the D50 than anyone else I ever met. Old Bob, Sometimes bad news travels slowly. I wasn't aware that Dick Ward had gone West. In the early days (as in 1996) of the Twin Commander Flight Group he and I spoke many times and shared resources that the two brands -- Bee ch and Aero Commander -- had in common. At one time we discussed a joint fly-in event so T-Bone and bathtub nacelled Commander owners could show the engine, prop, parts and service providers our fleet numbers. We had a most friendly rivalry and I'm sorry to learn I won't be jousting with him any longer over why the Aero Commander was soooooo much better than the T-Bone. Best to you -- and thank you for dropping in with your wit and wisdom ever y now and then. Keith S. Gordon aka Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 6:11 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video Good Morning Barry, While I am confident that the story about Ike using a T-Bone to fly around Korea is accurate and that he used one to fly to Camp David is accurate, I doubt very much if any individual airplane was assigned to the operatio n. Chances are it was a routine Army airplane. As I said before, I heard the story from Army pilots, not Air Force personnel. The Army had a whole passel of T-Bones! When Mamie skinned her shin, the decision was made to get the Aero Command er to eliminate the climb up those original "steps on a stick". Beech eve n redesigned the access to the D50 because of it, but the damage was done .. It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the D50 than anyone else I ever met. I am fairly familiar with Twin Beech history and I am confident that there was never a Twin Beech specifically assigned to Ike. I would imagine that he did fly in one every now and then. It was hard to be in the Army duri ng WWII without getting in a DC-3 or a Twin Beech on occasion. He also fle w in various liaison aircraft whenever it was appropriate to do so. I also doubt that Paul Tibbets would have done any flying with Ike. Rusty Draper was his pilot during WWII and he chose him to fly the Columbine as well. If anyone would have done any flying for Ike after he left the pres idency, it would have been Rusty. The only airplanes he was assigned with which I am familiar were the Conni e he used as General Of The Armies and the Columbine he used as President. I have tried to locate the serial number of the Bonanza he used to commute between his home at Gettysburg and Teterboro when he was President of Col umbia University, but have never found any proof of his ownership. It is quite possible that the Bonanza was a leased aircraft and he only used it for a very short time. We have a small amount of D50 material at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum and I will try to see what might be there next time I get to Tullahoma. I have discussed the Eisenhower use of a T-Bone in Korea and the initial use of a T-Bone for use to get to Camp David with several Beechcraft old timers when I attended schools or sales events at the factory. However, I know of no written documentation of the Mamie incident. I am absolutely confident it occurred and that Ike did use a T-Bone for at least the first flying trip to Camp David. By the way. Are you familiar with the use Colonel Robert R McCormick made of an Aero Commander to commute from Wheaton, Illinois, to Chicago's Meig s Field to work every day? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:05:38 A.M. Central Standard Time, barry.col lman@air-britain.co.uk writes: Hi again Bob, Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore have no reference material here that would be of any help. However, within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many asp ects of aviation and there is an online Forum called =9CAB-IX =9D (Air-Britain Information Exchange). People can ask questions they are unable to resolve themselves and the vast majority of them get answered by other people who have the require d knowledge or expertise. I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President Eisenhowe r had a Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal. One guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he has available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and Flying magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by the President. Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, doesn=99t remember se eing any reference to Eisenhower using a Twin Bonanza in Beech histories , literature or newsletters. He did add though that the USAF did actually have at least one example of the L-23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", ha d extended floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955, project ended 19Dec56. This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza" 1998. As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited Weston Executive Airpor t, just outside Dublin, in June of 2008. On being accompanied around the hangars my colleagues and I were shown a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC , c/n AF25 8, Built 1952, formerly N9541Z and 51-11701A. She was named Southern Com fort and carried USAF under the port wing. We were told that this aircr aft had been used at some time by President Eisenhower, and whilst I can not vouch for the authenticity of this story, we accepted the comment at face value at the time.=9D To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI first came across th is claim online and it accompanied a photo for sale of G-BSZC. They clai med that it belonged "to ex-president Eisenhower and flown by Paul Tibbet [sic Tibbets] of Enola Gay WWII." I'm not sure if the claim is that Eis enhower flew in it while it was in service with SAC in the USAF and he was President (1953-1961) or that he owned it as a civilian (he retired to a farm in Gettysburg, PA & died in Mar69). According to FAA files he didn't own it. Perhaps the USAF log book shows he flew in it, that woul d be great if that could be confirmed.=9D So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel sure that on e was not set aside for his permanent use. The Commanders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific purpo se. My feeling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used and the Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air Transport Group, 1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A si ster unit, the 1299th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew the President=99s aides, Secret Service personnel and foreign digni taries. However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, we in Air-B ritain would like to know more. Does anybody have a copy of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward, "B eechcraft Twin Bonanza", from 1998.) Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book would highlight tha t fact? Best Regards, Barry ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:11 AM PST US From: "Randy Dettmer, AIA" Subject: Commander-List: N6253X For Sale Fellow Commander Colleagues, After 11 years of faithful service, I have decided to put N6253X up for sale. Here are some quick specs: 1961 680F Approx 4,000 hrs total time / 150 hours SMOH Decent paint / good interior Collins nav/coms, HSI, coupled GPS, C-3 Autopilot, etc. Flown regularly - generally in very good shape Asking $150,000.00 Pictures and more information to follow. Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB 680f / N6253X Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:56:51 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video Good Morning Keith, We lost Dick in 2008. Miss him too. And: ---- I like both machines! Flew them a lot back in the fifties and sixties. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/6/2010 10:24:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, cloudcraft@aol.com writes: It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the D50 than anyone else I ever met. Old Bob, Sometimes bad news travels slowly. I wasn't aware that Dick Ward had gon e West. In the early days (as in 1996) of the Twin Commander Flight Group he and I spoke many times and shared resources that the two brands -- Beec h and Aero Commander -- had in common. At one time we discussed a joint fly-in event so T-Bone and bathtub nacelled Commander owners could show th e engine, prop, parts and service providers our fleet numbers. We had a most friendly rivalry and I'm sorry to learn I won't be jousting with him any longer over why the Aero Commander was soooooo much better than the T-Bone. Best to you -- and thank you for dropping in with your wit and wisdom every now and then. Keith S. Gordon aka Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 6:11 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video Good Morning Barry, While I am confident that the story about Ike using a T-Bone to fly aroun d Korea is accurate and that he used one to fly to Camp David is accurate, I doubt very much if any individual airplane was assigned to the operation. Chances are it was a routine Army airplane. As I said before, I heard th e story from Army pilots, not Air Force personnel. The Army had a whole passel of T-Bones! When Mamie skinned her shin, the decision was made to get the Aero Commander to eliminate the climb up those original "steps on a stick". Beech even redesigned the access to the D50 because of it, but the damage was done. It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the D50 than anyone else I ever met. I am fairly familiar with Twin Beech history and I am confident that ther e was never a Twin Beech specifically assigned to Ike. I would imagine that he did fly in one every now and then. It was hard to be in the Army duri ng WWII without getting in a DC-3 or a Twin Beech on occasion. He also flew in various liaison aircraft whenever it was appropriate to do so. I also doubt that Paul Tibbets would have done any flying with Ike. Rusty Draper was his pilot during WWII and he chose him to fly the Columbine as well. If anyone would have done any flying for Ike after he left the presidency, it would have been Rusty. The only airplanes he was assigned with which I am familiar were the Connie he used as General Of The Armies and the Columbine he used as Pres ident. I have tried to locate the serial number of the Bonanza he used to commut e between his home at Gettysburg and Teterboro when he was President of Columbia University, but have never found any proof of his ownership. It is quite possible that the Bonanza was a leased aircraft and he only used it for a very short time. We have a small amount of D50 material at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum and I will try to see what might be there next time I get to Tullahoma. I have discussed the Eisenhower use of a T-Bone in Korea and the initial use of a T-Bone for use to get to Camp David with several Beechcraft old timers when I attended schools or sales events at the factory. However, I know of no written documentation of the Mamie incident. I am absolutely confident it occurred and that Ike did use a T-Bone for at least the first flying trip to Camp David. By the way. Are you familiar with the use Colonel Robert R McCormick made of an Aero Commander to commute from Wheaton, Illinois, to Chicago's Meigs Field to work every day? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:05:38 A.M. Central Standard Time, _barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk_ (mailto:barry.collman@air-britain.co.uk) writes: Hi again Bob, Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore have no reference material here that would be of any help. However, within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many aspects of aviation and there is an online Forum called =9CAB-IX =9D (Air-Britain Information Exchange). People can ask questions they are unable to resolve themselves and the vast majority of them get answered by other people who have the required knowledge or expertise. I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President Eisenhower had a Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal. One guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he has available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and Flying magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by the President. Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, doesn=99t remember see ing any reference to Eisenhower using a Twin Bonanza in Beech histories, literatu re or newsletters. He did add though that the USAF did actually have at least one example of the L-23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", had extended floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955, proj ect ended 19Dec56. This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza" 1998. As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited Weston Executive Airport , just outside Dublin, in June of 2008. On being accompanied around the hangars my colleagues and I were shown a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC , c/n AF258, Built 1952, formerly N9541Z and 51-11701A. She was named Southern Comfort and carried USAF under the port wing. We were told that this aircraft had been used at some time by President Eisenhower, and whilst I cannot vouch for the authenticity of this story, we accepted the comment at face value at the time.=9D To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI first came across thi s claim online and it accompanied a photo for sale of G-BSZC. They claimed that it belonged "to ex-president Eisenhower and flown by Paul Tibbet [sic Tibbet s] of Enola Gay WWII." I'm not sure if the claim is that Eisenhower flew in it while it was in service with SAC in the USAF and he was President (1953-1961) or that he owned it as a civilian (he retired to a farm in Ge ttysburg, PA & died in Mar69). According to FAA files he didn't own it. Perhaps the USAF log book shows he flew in it, that would be great if that could be confirmed.=9D So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel sure that one was not set aside for his permanent use. The Commanders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific purpos e. My feeling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used and the Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air Transport Group, 1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A sister unit, the 1299th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew the President =99s aides, Secret Service personnel and foreign dignitaries. However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, we in Air-Britain would like to know more. Does anybody have a copy of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward, "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza", from 1998.) Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book would highlight that fact? Best Regards, Barry ======================== =========== ric.com">www.aeroelectric.com w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com ibution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== ator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ttp://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== ======================== ============ (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) ======================== ============ (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ======================== ============ ======================== ============ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video From: yourtcfg@aol.com I too Miss Dick. We often exchanged newsletter articles and he was a genu ine Gentleman. Now, I have been reading with great interest so post regar ding Ike and if he flew a T bone. Since none of us were there it is safe to say that I doubt minds will be changed. However, I have in my possess ion a great little book titled "The Flying White house" by Col.Ralph Alber tazzie, an Air Force One pilot. The book chronicles the history of A.F.O. It is a great book, well written and factual. The author has no allegia nce to any airplane (except maybe the Boeing 707). There are a few pages devoted to the history of the Aero Commander, and... ..... the T bone! I wish I could type faster, I would love to share all that is written on the subject, but will need to share only paraphrased excerpts. So, here we go. "Not generally know is that Eke had several ot her presidential aircraft- each of them them a speedy twin propeller L-26 Aero Commander" "The light, little planes were already popular with mili tary brass for short distance flights" When Ike acquired his farm near Ge ttysburg, it took only a few trip to convince him a faster way of getting there had to be found" "The secret service was worried about the safety of small aircraft for presidential use, they would not let the president fly in any airplane with less than four engines" "But Ike was insistant and, there had to be a faster way" "I know ther are small aircraft that can do the trick" Ike told James Rowley "I know you have reservations, so find a model that suits us both" "After months of test flying, and st udy, the secret service and the FAA selected the AERO COMMANDER as the mos t suitable aircraft" "On Mat 23 1955 an order was placed but to ease Ikes impatience, a demonstrator, N2724B was leased to the Whiter House" "And so on June 3 1955, a president cf the United States flew for the first ti me in light aircraft" "With two pilots and Rowley accompaning Ike, they made the seventy two mike trip in twenty three minutes" "The AERO COMMAN DER landed on the sod runway at Gettysburg followed closely by another AER O COMMANDER with three more secret service agents, plus several Beechcraft L-23, Twin Bonnanzas with a delegation of reporters to record the histori c airlift" So, you see, the government did in fact believe that Twin Bona nazas were safe enough for THE PRESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After his heart atta ck in July of 1956, a bed was installed in Ikes AERO COMMANDER so he could still travel to the farm, a feat impossible in a Bone. There is much mor e information about the AERO COMMANDER and there presidential use includin g the fact that even today's 747 are painted in a very simallr paint schem e. There is mention of him flying a Stearman, but NO mention of him EVER flying re even being allowed to ride in a Twin Bonanza While he was clea rly around both types, the Commander was his airplane of choice. sorry BTW, I think Bones are great airplanes too!!!! ;-) -----Original Message----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 9:52 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video Good Morning Keith, We lost Dick in 2008. Miss him too. And: ---- I like both machines! Flew them a lot back in the fifties and sixties. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/6/2010 10:24:14 A.M. Central Standard Time, cloudcra ft@aol.com writes: It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the D50 than anyone else I ever met. Old Bob, Sometimes bad news travels slowly. I wasn't aware that Dick Ward had gone West. In the early days (as in 1996) of the Twin Commander Flight Group he and I spoke many times and shared resources that the two brands -- Bee ch and Aero Commander -- had in common. At one time we discussed a joint fly-in event so T-Bone and bathtub nacelled Commander owners could show the engine, prop, parts and service providers our fleet numbers. We had a most friendly rivalry and I'm sorry to learn I won't be jousting with him any longer over why the Aero Commander was soooooo much better than the T-Bone. Best to you -- and thank you for dropping in with your wit and wisdom ever y now and then. Keith S. Gordon aka Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Mon, Dec 6, 2010 6:11 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander photo / video Good Morning Barry, While I am confident that the story about Ike using a T-Bone to fly around Korea is accurate and that he used one to fly to Camp David is accurate, I doubt very much if any individual airplane was assigned to the operatio n. Chances are it was a routine Army airplane. As I said before, I heard the story from Army pilots, not Air Force personnel. The Army had a whole passel of T-Bones! When Mamie skinned her shin, the decision was made to get the Aero Command er to eliminate the climb up those original "steps on a stick". Beech eve n redesigned the access to the D50 because of it, but the damage was done .. It is a shame that Dick Ward is no longer with us. He knew more about the D50 than anyone else I ever met. I am fairly familiar with Twin Beech history and I am confident that there was never a Twin Beech specifically assigned to Ike. I would imagine that he did fly in one every now and then. It was hard to be in the Army duri ng WWII without getting in a DC-3 or a Twin Beech on occasion. He also fle w in various liaison aircraft whenever it was appropriate to do so. I also doubt that Paul Tibbets would have done any flying with Ike. Rusty Draper was his pilot during WWII and he chose him to fly the Columbine as well. If anyone would have done any flying for Ike after he left the pres idency, it would have been Rusty. The only airplanes he was assigned with which I am familiar were the Conni e he used as General Of The Armies and the Columbine he used as President. I have tried to locate the serial number of the Bonanza he used to commute between his home at Gettysburg and Teterboro when he was President of Col umbia University, but have never found any proof of his ownership. It is quite possible that the Bonanza was a leased aircraft and he only used it for a very short time. We have a small amount of D50 material at the Beechcraft Heritage Museum and I will try to see what might be there next time I get to Tullahoma. I have discussed the Eisenhower use of a T-Bone in Korea and the initial use of a T-Bone for use to get to Camp David with several Beechcraft old timers when I attended schools or sales events at the factory. However, I know of no written documentation of the Mamie incident. I am absolutely confident it occurred and that Ike did use a T-Bone for at least the first flying trip to Camp David. By the way. Are you familiar with the use Colonel Robert R McCormick made of an Aero Commander to commute from Wheaton, Illinois, to Chicago's Meig s Field to work every day? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:05:38 A.M. Central Standard Time, barry.col lman@air-britain.co.uk writes: Hi again Bob, Well, I=99m certainly no expert on military aviation and therefore have no reference material here that would be of any help. However, within Air-Britain (Historians) we have Specialists in many aspec ts of aviation and there is an online Forum called =9CAB-IX=9D (Air-Britain Information Exchange). People can ask questions they are unable to resolve themselves and the vas t majority of them get answered by other people who have the required know ledge or expertise. I therefore posed a question yesterday as to whether President Eisenhower had a Beech D-50 (L-23) at his disposal. One guy replied that the only two items on Presidential aircraft that he has available (American Aviation Historical Society, Issue 2 1963 and Fly ing magazine, August 1990), make no mention of a Beech being used by the President. Another guy, our Specialist on the Beech 18, doesn=99t remember seei ng any reference to Eisenhower using a Twin Bonanza in Beech histories, li terature or newsletters. He did add though that the USAF did actually have at least one example of the L-23. Designated as an XL-23C, 55-3465 c/n CH-123 "Long Tom", had ext ended floating wing panels for an experimental project. Mfg 1955, project ended 19Dec56. This is from Dick Ward's book "Beechcraft Twin Bonanza" 1998. As an aside, another guy says =9CI visited Weston Executive Airport, just outside Dublin, in June of 2008. On being accompanied around the han gars my colleagues and I were shown a Beech C-45H, G-BSZC , c/n AF258, Bui lt 1952, formerly N9541Z and 51-11701A. She was named Southern Comfort and carried USAF under the port wing. We were told that this aircraft had be en used at some time by President Eisenhower, and whilst I cannot vouch fo r the authenticity of this story, we accepted the comment at face value at the time.=9D To this, our Beech 18 Specialist replied =9CI first came across this claim online and it accompanied a photo for sale of G-BSZC. They claimed that it belonged "to ex-president Eisenhower and flown by Paul Tibbet [si c Tibbets] of Enola Gay WWII." I'm not sure if the claim is that Eisenhowe r flew in it while it was in service with SAC in the USAF and he was Presi dent (1953-1961) or that he owned it as a civilian (he retired to a farm in Gettysburg, PA & died in Mar69). According to FAA files he didn't own it. Perhaps the USAF log book shows he flew in it, that would be great if that could be confirmed.=9D So, Ike could have flown in a Beech D-50 (L-23), but I feel sure that one was not set aside for his permanent use. The Commanders were, of course, and were ordered for this specific purpose .. My feeling is that Army aircraft simply wouldn=99t have been used an d the Commanders were operated by a unit within the USAF (1254th Air Trans port Group, 1298th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron. A sister uni t, the 1299th Air Transport (Special Missions) Squadron flew the President =99s aides, Secret Service personnel and foreign dignitaries. However, if your sources are adamant that an L-23 was used, we in Air-Bri tain would like to know more. Does anybody have a copy of the book mentioned earlier (By Dick Ward, "Bee chcraft Twin Bonanza", from 1998.) Surely, if Eisenhower had flown in an L-23, the book would highlight that fact? Best Regards, Barry ======================== =========== ic.com">www.aeroelectric.com w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== ator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== tp://forums.matronics.com ======================== ======================== =========== tp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com / href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com p://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== s.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== ======================== =========== - -= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- -= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) - -= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on -= the Contribution link below to find out more about -= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided -= by: -= -= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com -= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com -= * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com - -= List Contribution Web Site: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution - -= Thank you for your generous support! - -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:16:05 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: 2010 Flyin From: "Peter Bichier" Moe we missed you too, specially at the banquet! (I'm sure you recognized your old "pick-up" Golden friend! Hope 680RR is flying along straight (when not on the ground) and I'm sure we'll see you again, hope your time also paid off... (I won't start a slippery slope here) Morris, hope you're also reading this since this link is mostly for you. For the others, on every fly in we always have a "field trip." In Oklahoma we went to see the "blue Goose" (AC prototype been restored with the $ we contribute at the banquet). In Carson City of course, there was Bob Hoover and do I have to say Reno? In Hillsboro, it was a nice trip through Pinot Noir country to the Evergreen Aviation Museum to see well another Goose; check it out! http://picasaweb.google.com/YVABE560/EvergreenAirMuseum10?feat=directlink Hasta luego, P. -------- 560 Dreamer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322561#322561 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.