---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/11/10: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:35 AM - Re: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires (Barry Collman) 2. 06:42 AM - Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report (yourtcfg@aol.com) 3. 07:36 AM - Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report (Frits Abbing) 4. 08:00 AM - Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report (Barry Collman) 5. 10:00 AM - Commander Spotting KGRR (Keith S. Gordon) 6. 12:17 PM - Re: Commander Spotting KGRR (Barry Collman) 7. 12:26 PM - Re: Commander Spotting KGRR (Keith S. Gordon) 8. 12:43 PM - Re: Commander Spotting KGRR (Barry Collman) 9. 12:44 PM - Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report (Barry Collman) 10. 03:08 PM - Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report (Keith S. Gordon) 11. 03:23 PM - Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report (Barry Collman) 12. 03:41 PM - Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factors << (Keith S. Gordon) 13. 04:02 PM - Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factors << (BobsV35B@aol.com) 14. 04:51 PM - Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factors << (Keith S. Gordon) 15. 07:55 PM - Re: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires (lloyd silverman) 16. 08:06 PM - Re: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factors << (yourtcfg@aol.com) 17. 09:17 PM - Re: Facebook page (cybersuperstore) 18. 09:53 PM - Re: Facebook page (Gary Wilson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:35:15 AM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires Hi Lloyd, Well, it=99s not definite that =98your=99 680 is the one that ended up with the Colombian Navy, as per the photo. It=99s just that of those Commanders that I know of in Colombia, but don=99t know the aircraft=99s serial number, the shot of the Navy one is the only 680 that I know of. There could well be others that I=99m not aware of. For instance, some military serials have been reported, but the Model hasn=99t been. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd silverman Sent: 11 December 2010 04:07 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires Barry, I rec'd them all .Great pix. I have no idea when it go the nose job. Will send tale of how it got into the Colombian navy while I'm still listed as one of the owners by UNCLE SAM (F.A.A.). Many thanks for your great work. I never thought id see pix of n6851S again. Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:45 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires Hi Lloyd, I sent an email to you yesterday with some attached files. I presume it got to you OK? Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd silverman Sent: 10 December 2010 03:21 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires barry, my direct email address is LLOYDSSS11@MSN.COM Thanks for your great work. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:15 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires Hi Lloyd, Its bones should indeed be in Colombia and I see that you were a joint owner of N6851S sometime before it went to Colombia. I=99m going to email you an .xls file showing what I have on its history and will certainly look forward to learning =9Ca long story=9D! Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd silverman Sent: 09 December 2010 01:32 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires BARRY, SEE WHAT INFO YOU HAVE ON A 680 N6851S. I'LL EMAIL A LONG STORY,HOWEVER IT'S BONES SHOULD BE IN COLOMBIA.THANKS,LLOYD (500B N6290X). ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:39 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires Hi Stan, Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are South of the border! So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger to keyboard. I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX. I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition. No engines and, as you noted, no rudder. I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have, but in the meantime you can see a shot of it on www.myaviation.net, taken on 01May08. However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10, reveals that it's been moved and has been moved just outside the airport perimeter in order to take part in a mock accident to test the response of emergency procedures. Very Best Regards, Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of swperk@earthlink.net Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39 Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires Hi Barry, You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also appreciate all of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a Twin Commander I saw yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos Aires. Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a while, but I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite where the airline terminal is. My information is a bit vague because I could get no closer than a half a mile or so to it. Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what appeared to be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to fuselage distance. The plane is beige with light blue striping, and is missing (at least) the rudder. I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a window seat on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as we passed the Commander. I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few photos to you when I get home next week. They're a little blurry, since I took them through several layers of plexiglas while moving at 120 knots or so, but maybe you will find them useful. BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've been to about six airports here in my travels and, other than a few corporate-style jets, I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2. All for p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link Free title=http://www.aeroelectric.com/ sp; * The Builder's Bookstore http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _============= www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com title=http://www.buildersbooks.com/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com title=http://www.buildersbooks.com/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c title=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report From: yourtcfg@aol.com HI PETER...The airplane was being flown, in instrument conditions, by a pa ir (father & son) of non instrument rated pilots, without a flight plan. They had been in instrument condition for at least an hour. There was ice a strong possibility of ice and thunder storms in the vicinity. Ther e was also evidence of a possible lighting strike. In any case, it appear s the the pilot simply lost control and exceeded any reasonable design lim its. Sad. jb -----Original Message----- From: Peter Bichier Sent: Wed, Dec 8, 2010 5:44 pm Subject: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report do.Edu> I know you guys mentioned this accident before, here is the NTSB prelimina ry eport. What could have caused a section of the wing to break apart? is tha t a ase where the pilot was trying to control too much the plane? ie too much "hard and" on the yoke? Is that a case where avoiding some storms is a must even in a ommander? http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223&key=1 NTSB Identification: WPR10FA397 4 CFR Part 91: General Aviation ccident occurred Wednesday, August 11, 2010 in Burns, OR ircraft: AERO COMMANDER 500-B, registration: N500FV njuries: 2 Fatal. his is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any rrors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been ompleted. On August 11, 2010, about 0855 Pacific daylight time, an Aero Commander 50 0B, 500FV, impacted the terrain about 80 miles south of Burns, Oregon. The pri vate ilot and his passenger were killed, and the airplane sustained substantial amage. The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 visual flight rules (VFR ) light, which departed Redding Municipal Airport, Redding California, at an as f yet undetermined time, was en route to Pocatello, Idaho. The accident to ok lace in a area where thunderstorms, lightning, and rain were reported. No light plan had been filed, but the pilot was receiving radar flight follow ing rom Air Route Traffic Control (ARTC). According to witnesses in the area, the airplane could be heard overhead, but ould not be seen because of the solid overcast and the rain that was falli ng. he witnesses reported that the airplane sounded normal at first, but then the ounds coming from the engines became similar to those that they had heard from n "airplane doing aerobatics." Soon thereafter, the airplane was seen escending steeply out of the clouds with about one-third of the left wing issing. The airplane impacted the terrain in a near vertical attitude. The portion of the left wing that had separated was located about one-half mile rom the rest of the wreckage. The airplane has been recovered, and will un dergo urther inspection and analysis. -------- 60 Dreamer ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=322703#322703 ======================== =========== - -= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- -= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) - -= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on -= the Contribution link below to find out more about -= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided -= by: -= -= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com -= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com -= * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com - -= List Contribution Web Site: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution - -= Thank you for your generous support! - -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:43 AM PST US From: Frits Abbing Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report Hi Barry, Excellent comment on this pre report. However what are the design limits on the AC's. How many G's + or - with speeds? regards, Frits ________________________________ From: Barry Collman Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 1:51:02 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report Hi Peter, I'm not an accident investigator, so cannot comment in a definitive manner, of course! On the face of it, this seems to be a classic case of the aircraft exceeding the design stress limits. This could be because of excessive use of the controls, but other factors could be brought into play. The link you provided is "preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors". Therefore, it's best to wait for the definitive Report to be published by the NTSB. In the past, a 'big thing' has been made of such accidents in the press and led to the Commanders getting a bad reputation for in-flight breakups. However, virtually all the accident reports that I've seen end up with the expression "exceeded the design stress limits of the aircraft" or similar. Best Regards, Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Bichier Sent: 08 December 2010 23:45 Subject: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report --> I know you guys mentioned this accident before, here is the NTSB preliminary report. What could have caused a section of the wing to break apart? is that a case where the pilot was trying to control too much the plane? ie too much "hard hand" on the yoke? Is that a case where avoiding some storms is a must even in a Commander? http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223&key=1 NTSB Identification: WPR10FA397 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Wednesday, August 11, 2010 in Burns, OR Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 500-B, registration: N500FV Injuries: 2 Fatal. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On August 11, 2010, about 0855 Pacific daylight time, an Aero Commander 500B, N500FV, impacted the terrain about 80 miles south of Burns, Oregon. The private pilot and his passenger were killed, and the airplane sustained substantial damage. The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 visual flight rules (VFR) flight, which departed Redding Municipal Airport, Redding California, at an as of yet undetermined time, was en route to Pocatello, Idaho. The accident took place in a area where thunderstorms, lightning, and rain were reported. No flight plan had been filed, but the pilot was receiving radar flight following from Air Route Traffic Control (ARTC). According to witnesses in the area, the airplane could be heard overhead, but could not be seen because of the solid overcast and the rain that was falling. The witnesses reported that the airplane sounded normal at first, but then the sounds coming from the engines became similar to those that they had heard from an "airplane doing aerobatics." Soon thereafter, the airplane was seen descending steeply out of the clouds with about one-third of the left wing missing. The airplane impacted the terrain in a near vertical attitude. The portion of the left wing that had separated was located about one-half mile from the rest of the wreckage. The airplane has been recovered, and will undergo further inspection and analysis. -------- 560 Dreamer ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:04 AM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: RE: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report Hi Fritz, N500FV was a Model 500A, but was converted to a 500B in December 1964. Both the 500A and 500B have a Flight Load Factor of 3.80 G's positive, but I've not found a Negative G figure published anywhere. For the 500A, those converted to a Colemill "Super 300", the figure is slightly reduced, to 3.60 G. For the other "Speedline" nacelle Models, the Flight Load Factor figures are: 500U & 500S: 4.40 G positive, 1.76 G negative 560F: 3.47 G positive, 1.76 G negative 680F & 680F(P): 3.43 G positive, no negative figure known 680FL: 3.40 G positive, 1.36 G negative 680FLP: 3.40 G positive, no negative figure known The 685 is slightly different, with figures of 3.36 & 1.35 with flaps up and 2.00 and 0.00 with flaps down. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frits Abbing Sent: 11 December 2010 15:31 Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report Hi Barry, Excellent comment on this pre report. However what are the design limits on the AC's. How many G's + or - with speeds? regards, Frits _____ From: Barry Collman Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 1:51:02 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report Hi Peter, I'm not an accident investigator, so cannot comment in a definitive manner, of course! On the face of it, this seems to be a classic case of the aircraft exceeding the design stress limits. This could be because of excessive use of the controls, but other factors could be brought into play. The link you provided is "preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors". Therefore, it's best to wait for the definitive Report to be published by the NTSB. In the past, a 'big thing' has been made of such accidents in the press and led to the Commanders getting a bad reputation for in-flight breakups. However, virtually all the accident reports that I've seen end up with the expression "exceeded the design stress limits of the aircraft" or similar. Best Regards, Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Bichier Sent: 08 December 2010 23:45 Subject: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report --> I know you guys mentioned this accident before, here is the NTSB preliminary report. What could have caused a section of the wing to break apart? is that a case where the pilot was trying to control too much the plane? ie too much "hard hand" on the yoke? Is that a case where avoiding some storms is a must even in a Commander? http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223 &key=1 NTSB Identification: WPR10FA397 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Wednesday, August 11, 2010 in Burns, OR Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 500-B, registration: N500FV Injuries: 2 Fatal. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On August 11, 2010, about 0855 Pacific daylight time, an Aero Commander 500B, N500FV, impacted the terrain about 80 miles south of Burns, Oregon. The private pilot and his passenger were killed, and the airplane sustained substantial damage. The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 visual flight rules (VFR) flight, which departed Redding Municipal Airport, Redding California, at an as of yet undetermined time, was en route to Pocatello, Idaho. The accident took place in a area where thunderstorms, lightning, and rain were reported. No flight plan had been filed, but the pilot was receiving radar flight following from Air Route Traffic Control (ARTC). According to witnesses in the area, the airplane could be heard overhead, but could not be seen because of the solid overcast and the rain that was falling. The witnesses reported that the airplane sounded normal at first, but then the sounds coming from the engines became similar to those that they had heard from an ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:00:58 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR From: "Keith S. Gordon" Sir Barry, Since your recent post about the lack of Commander spotting going on, I've made it my early New Year's resolution to improve that area of my life. This pair of John Towner's fleet were spotted in Grand Rapids, Michicgan (KGRR) yesterday while I was on a short stand-by. I did not have my camera with me and took these with my Garmin 550t GPS I use for geocaching -- so the close-ups of the data plates are not of the quality I would have wanted. Featured on these two 500Bs are TKS anti-ice systems for wing and tail and my favorite scheme for fuel vent anti-icing. N261ER Keith S. Gordon Wing Commander Gordon (next best thing to fly in not an Aero Commander) Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:10 PM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR Hi Keith, I'm really grateful to you for the shots of two of John's Commanders, especially the s/n plates as I'm trying to build up a collection of these in order to get the Manufacturer's Aircraft Association's 6-digit s/n plate numbers. Photography using a Garmin 550t GPS? What on earth will be next I ask!?! Really great to hear from you again. Very Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S. Gordon Sent: 11 December 2010 17:58 Subject: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR Sir Barry, Since your recent post about the lack of Commander spotting going on, I've made it my early New Year's resolution to improve that area of my life. This pair of John Towner's fleet were spotted in Grand Rapids, Michicgan (KGRR) yesterday while I was on a short stand-by. I did not have my camera with me and took these with my Garmin 550t GPS I use for geocaching -- so the close-ups of the data plates are not of the quality I would have wanted. Featured on these two 500Bs are TKS anti-ice systems for wing and tail and my favorite scheme for fuel vent anti-icing. N477CC.JPG N477CC fueselage.JPG N477CC data plate.JPG N477CC bragging rights.JPG N261ER N261ER fuselage.JPG N261ER data plate.JPG TKS wing Fuel Vent Anti Ice.JPG Keith S. Gordon Wing Commander Gordon (next best thing to fly in not an Aero Commander) N770FG KGRR.JPG Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:26:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR From: "Keith S. Gordon" Photography using a Garmin 550t GPS? What on earth will be next I ask!?! I know. It's getting ridiculous. Cameras are built into everything now. Maybe that's good, but I have my concerns! Knowing you as I do, I made the data plates a priority. Too bad the light ing was so flat and dim in the gray overcast yesterday. My digital camera (that has a built in camera) is on the charger and will go into my flight bag for the next trip. Best, Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: Barry Collman Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 12:13 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR Hi Keith, I=99m really grateful to you for the shots of two of John=99s Commanders, especially the s/n plates as I=99m trying to build up a collection of these in order to get the Manufacturer=99s Aircraft Association=99s 6-digit s/n plate numbers. Photography using a Garmin 550t GPS? What on earth will be next I ask!?! Really great to hear from you again. Very Best Regards, Barry ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:32 PM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR Hi Keith, The quality of the s/n plates shots were OK! So long as I can read the aircraft s/n and the 6-digit number at the foot of the plate =93 that=99s all I need. Very Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S. Gordon Sent: 11 December 2010 20:24 Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR Photography using a Garmin 550t GPS? What on earth will be next I ask!?! I know. It's getting ridiculous. Cameras are built into everything now. Maybe that's good, but I have my concerns! Knowing you as I do, I made the data plates a priority. Too bad the lighting was so flat and dim in the gray overcast yesterday. My digital camera (that has a built in camera) is on the charger and will go into my flight bag for the next trip. Best, Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: Barry Collman Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 12:13 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Spotting KGRR Hi Keith, I=99m really grateful to you for the shots of two of John=99s Commanders, especially the s/n plates as I=99m trying to build up a collection of these in order to get the Manufacturer=99s Aircraft Association=99s 6-digit s/n plate numbers. Photography using a Garmin 550t GPS? What on earth will be next I ask!?! Really great to hear from you again. Very Best Regards, Barry www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:45 PM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: RE: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report Hello All, Out of interest, does anybody have the Flight Load Factor figures for comparable aircraft, or competitors, of these Commander Models? Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry Collman Sent: 11 December 2010 15:57 Subject: RE: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report Hi Fritz, N500FV was a Model 500A, but was converted to a 500B in December 1964. Both the 500A and 500B have a Flight Load Factor of 3.80 G's positive, but I've not found a Negative G figure published anywhere. For the 500A, those converted to a Colemill "Super 300", the figure is slightly reduced, to 3.60 G. For the other "Speedline" nacelle Models, the Flight Load Factor figures are: 500U & 500S: 4.40 G positive, 1.76 G negative 560F: 3.47 G positive, 1.76 G negative 680F & 680F(P): 3.43 G positive, no negative figure known 680FL: 3.40 G positive, 1.36 G negative 680FLP: 3.40 G positive, no negative figure known The 685 is slightly different, with figures of 3.36 & 1.35 with flaps up and 2.00 and 0.00 with flaps down. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frits Abbing Sent: 11 December 2010 15:31 Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report Hi Barry, Excellent comment on this pre report. However what are the design limits on the AC's. How many G's + or - with speeds? regards, Frits _____ From: Barry Collman Sent: Fri, December 10, 2010 1:51:02 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report Hi Peter, I'm not an accident investigator, so cannot comment in a definitive manner, of course! On the face of it, this seems to be a classic case of the aircraft exceeding the design stress limits. This could be because of excessive use of the controls, but other factors could be brought into play. The link you provided is "preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors". Therefore, it's best to wait for the definitive Report to be published by the NTSB. In the past, a 'big thing' has been made of such accidents in the press and led to the Commanders getting a bad reputation for in-flight breakups. However, virtually all the accident reports that I've seen end up with the expression "exceeded the design stress limits of the aircraft" or similar. Best Regards, Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Bichier Sent: 08 December 2010 23:45 Subject: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report --> I know you guys mentioned this accident before, here is the NTSB preliminary report. What could have caused a section of the wing to break apart? is that a case where the pilot was trying to control too much the plane? ie too much "hard hand" on the yoke? Is that a case where avoiding some storms is a must even in a Commander? http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id 100811X32223 &key=1 NTSB Identification: WPR10FA397 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Wednesday, August 11, 2010 in Burns, OR Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 500-B, registration: N500FV Injuries: 2 Fatal. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On August 11, 2010, about 0855 Pacific daylight time, an Aero Commander 500B, N500FV, impacted the terrain about 80 miles south of Burns, Oregon. The private pilot and his passenger were killed, and the airplane sustained substantial damage. The 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91 visual flight rules (VFR) flight, which departed Redding Municipal Airport, Redding California, at an as of yet undetermined time, was en route to Pocatello, Idaho. The accident took place in a area where thunderstorms, lightning, and rain were reported. No flight plan had been filed, but the pilot was receiving radar flight following from Air Route Traffic Control (ARTC). According to witnesses in the area, the airplane could be heard overhead, but could not be seen because of the solid overcast and the rain that was falling. The witnesses reported that the airplane sounded normal at first, but then the sounds coming from the engines became similar to those that they had heard from an www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report From: "Keith S. Gordon" Sir Barry, Try the Type Certificate Data Sheets: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/Framese t?OpenPageAZSi ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:39 PM PST US From: "Barry Collman" Subject: RE: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report Hi Keith, I looked at the FAA TCDS earlier on, but the Flight Load Factor figures aren't shown. If I remember correctly, the figures I have probably came from the Flight Manual for each Model. Very Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S. Gordon Sent: 11 December 2010 23:05 Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report Sir Barry, Try the Type Certificate Data Sheets: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/Frameset? OpenPageAZSi ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:42 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factors << From: "Keith S. Gordon" Sir Barry, Well, that link I sent for Type Certificate Data Sheets bombed. This should work: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgM akeModel.nsf/ If not, just go to FAA.GOV and search for "type certificate data" and you' ll get a page with results and a link to their library. This begs the question: "What is a comparable aircraft?" You'll probably find that Barons and Cessna 300 and 400 series aircraft will all share th e same design data: 3.8g positive -- and some may give a negative G value , some not. However, they're all driven by Part 23.337: Sec. 23.337 Limit maneuvering load factors. (a) The positive limit maneuvering load factor n may not be less than-- (1) 2.1+ for normal category airplanes, except that n need not be mo re than 3.8 nor may it be less than 2.5; (2) 4.4 for utility category airplanes; or (3) 6.0 for acrobatic category airplanes. (b) The negative limit maneuvering load factor may not be less than-- (1) 0.4 times the positive load factor for the normal and utility ca tegories; or (2) 0.5 times the positive load factor for the acrobatic category. (c) Maneuvering load factors lower than those specified in this section may be used if the airplane has design features that make it impossible to exceed these values in flight. A manufacturer may decide to exceed the load factor strengths but I don't know where to find that, other than their advertising because to certify they must comply with Part 23 and that's all the FAA is interested in. (An example is the Falcon 20 I fly. It's certified in the US as a Normal category turbine, Part 25 (large) airplane. However, it's an 8 G airfram e and a 24 psi pressure vessel. All it needs to state as limitations for the TDC in the US is 2.5 Gs and 8.7 psi.) Wing Commander Gordon ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:02:54 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factors << Good Evening Wing Commander Gordon, I looked in TCDSs but did not find any reference to the structural limits, just loading and speed restrictions. Incidentally, I don't think the Cessna 300 and 400 series or the Barons are in the same class as the Aero Commander. I think the best comparison aircraft would be the Beechcraft Twin Bonanza Model 50. My personal favorite of that fleet is the D50B. Wonder how those two (AC and T-Bone) would compare if over stressed? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/11/2010 5:45:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, cloudcraft@aol.com writes: Sir Barry, Well, that link I sent for Type Certificate Data Sheets bombed. This should work: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/ If not, just go to FAA.GOV and search for "type certificate data" and you'll get a page with results and a link to their library. This begs the question: "What is a comparable aircraft?" You'll probably find that Barons and Cessna 300 and 400 series aircraft will all share the same design data: 3.8g positive -- and some may give a negative G value, some not. However, they're all driven by Part 23.337: Sec. 23.337 Limit maneuvering load factors. (a) The positive limit maneuvering load factor n may not be less than-- (1) 2.1+ for normal category airplanes, except that n need not be more than 3.8 nor may it be less than 2.5; (2) 4.4 for utility category airplanes; or (3) 6.0 for acrobatic category airplanes. (b) The negative limit maneuvering load factor may not be less than-- (1) 0.4 times the positive load factor for the normal and utility categories; or (2) 0.5 times the positive load factor for the acrobatic category. (c) Maneuvering load factors lower than those specified in this section may be used if the airplane has design features that make it impossible to exceed these values in flight. A manufacturer may decide to exceed the load factor strengths but I don't know where to find that, other than their advertising because to certify they must comply with Part 23 and that's all the FAA is interested in. (An example is the Falcon 20 I fly. It's certified in the US as a Normal category turbine, Part 25 (large) airplane. However, it's an 8 G airframe and a 24 psi pressure vessel. All it needs to state as limitations for the TDC in the US is 2.5 Gs and 8.7 psi.) Wing Commander Gordon (http://www.aeroelectric.com/) (http://www.buildersbooks.com/) (http://www.homebuilthelp.com/) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:51:47 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factors << From: "Keith S. Gordon" I looked in TCDSs but did not find any reference to the structural limits, just loading and speed restrictions. Hello there, Old Bob, It's very subtle. I found the load limits in the TCDS under required plac ards. Not all a/c have placards about the load factors, so it's a hit or miss method. I think the AC-680 series and the T-Bones are a good side by side comparis on. The original question about load factors came from the NTSB incident report about a Commander coming apart in an area of T-storms flown by a non-instrument rated pilot in IMC. Given the weight and power of the aircraft in question, I gravitated towar ds the the BE-55/58 and CE300 series as being in a similar group. I proba bly did that because in the last millennium I was an AeroStar demo pilot and was always put to the task of selling that Ted Smith design against those Beech, Cessna and Piper products (and I just used to laugh at the Piper products until Piper bought AeroStar). It's an old habit, I guess. By the way, I never mentioned this to you but the first twin I never flew was Fes Parker's Excalibur T-Bone. One of the guys who bought it tossed me the keys (I was a flight instructor at Watsonville and that's where th e plane parked for a time) and told me to use if for my multi engine ratin g. I couldn't find an M.E.I. who knew anything about the airplane and the sca nt 5 page AFM in the airplane didn't inspire any of them to self check-out so they could give me dual. Too bad I didn't know about you or Dick Ward back in 1974. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 3:59 pm Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Facto rs << Good Evening Wing Commander Gordon, I looked in TCDSs but did not find any reference to the structural limits, just loading and speed restrictions. Incidentally, I don't think the Cessna 300 and 400 series or the Barons ar e in the same class as the Aero Commander. I think the best comparison air craft would be the Beechcraft Twin Bonanza Model 50. My personal favorite of that fleet is the D50B. Wonder how those two (AC and T-Bone) would compare if over stressed? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/11/2010 5:45:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, cloudcra ft@aol.com writes: Sir Barry, Well, that link I sent for Type Certificate Data Sheets bombed. This should work: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/r gMakeModel.nsf/ If not, just go to FAA.GOV and search for "type certificate data" and yo u'll get a page with results and a link to their library. This begs the question: "What is a comparable aircraft?" You'll prob ably find that Barons and Cessna 300 and 400 series aircraft will all sh are the same design data: 3.8g positive -- and some may give a negative G value, some not. However, they're all driven by Part 23.337: Sec. 23.337 Limit maneuvering load factors. (a) The positive limit maneuvering load factor n may not be less than-- (1) 2.1+ for normal category airplanes, except that n need not be more than 3.8 nor may it be less than 2.5; (2) 4.4 for utility category airplanes; or (3) 6.0 for acrobatic category airplanes. (b) The negative limit maneuvering load factor may not be less than-- (1) 0.4 times the positive load factor for the normal and utility catego ries; or (2) 0.5 times the positive load factor for the acrobatic category. (c) Maneuvering load factors lower than those specified in this section may be used if the airplane has design features that make it impossible to exceed these values in flight. A manufacturer may decide to exceed the load factor strengths but I don' t know where to find that, other than their advertising because to certi fy they must comply with Part 23 and that's all the FAA is interested in .. (An example is the Falcon 20 I fly. It's certified in the US as a Norma l category turbine, Part 25 (large) airplane. However, it's an 8 G airf rame and a 24 psi pressure vessel. All it needs to state as limitations for the TDC in the US is 2.5 Gs and 8.7 psi.) Wing Commander Gordon ======================== =========== ttp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com m/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com "http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:47 PM PST US From: "lloyd silverman" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires I UNDERSTAND. IT COULD BE... THANKS ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 7:28 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires Hi Lloyd, Well, it=99s not definite that =98your=99 680 is the one that ended up with the Colombian Navy, as per the photo. It=99s just that of those Commanders that I know of in Colombia, but don=99t know the aircraft=99s serial number, the shot of the Navy one is the only 680 that I know of. There could well be others that I=99m not aware of. For instance, some military serials have been reported, but the Model hasn=99t been. Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd silverman Sent: 11 December 2010 04:07 To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires Barry, I rec'd them all .Great pix. I have no idea when it go the nose job. Will send tale of how it got into the Colombian navy while I'm still listed as one of the owners by UNCLE SAM (F.A.A.). Many thanks for your great work. I never thought id see pix of n6851S again. Lloyd ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, December 10, 2010 8:45 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires Hi Lloyd, I sent an email to you yesterday with some attached files. I presume it got to you OK? Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd silverman Sent: 10 December 2010 03:21 To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires barry, my direct email address is LLOYDSSS11@MSN.COM Thanks for your great work. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 7:15 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires Hi Lloyd, Its bones should indeed be in Colombia and I see that you were a joint owner of N6851S sometime before it went to Colombia. I=99m going to email you an .xls file showing what I have on its history and will certainly look forward to learning =9Ca long story=9D! Best Regards, Barry From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of lloyd silverman Sent: 09 December 2010 01:32 To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires BARRY, SEE WHAT INFO YOU HAVE ON A 680 N6851S. I'LL EMAIL A LONG STORY,HOWEVER IT'S BONES SHOULD BE IN COLOMBIA.THANKS,LLOYD (500B N6290X). ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Collman To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2010 11:39 AM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires > Hi Stan, Such sightings are extremely helpful, especially when they are South of the border! So, grateful thanks for taking the time and trouble to put finger to keyboard. I think the one you saw is a 680V, s/n 1681-63, LV-OFX. I have 4 shots of it parked in derelict condition. No engines and, as you noted, no rudder. I'll await your shots in order to compare them with those I have, but in the meantime you can see a shot of it on www.myaviation.net, taken on 01May08. However, a later shot of it on airliners.net, taken on 09Mar10, reveals that it's been moved and has been moved just outside the airport perimeter in order to take part in a mock accident to test the response of emergency procedures. Very Best Regards, Barry -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of swperk@earthlink.net Sent: 08 December 2010 15:39 To: commander-list@matronics.com Subject: Commander-List: Commander Sighting in Buenos Aires swperk@earthlink.net Hi Barry, You may already know about this one, but just to show that I also appreciate all of the great work you do, I'd like to tell you about a Twin Commander I saw yesterday at the International Airport in Buenos Aires. Don't get too excited, because it looks like it's been there for a while, but I saw it yesterday on the GA side of the airport, opposite where the airline terminal is. My information is a bit vague because I could get no closer than a half a mile or so to it. Anyway, it looks to me like a 680T, V, W, or 681, because of what appeared to be turbine-style exhausts and the shorter nacelle to fuselage distance. The plane is beige with light blue striping, and is missing (at least) the rudder. I took a few photos of it as we were taking off again, since I had a window seat on the correct side of the airliner and we rotated just as we passed the Commander. I'm still in Argentina, but will e-mail a few photos to you when I get home next week. They're a little blurry, since I took them through several layers of plexiglas while moving at 120 knots or so, but maybe you will find them useful. BTW, not much GA activity in Argentina, as far as I can tell. I've been to about six airports here in my travels and, other than a few corporate-style jets, I have seen only a Cessna 320 and an MU-2. All for p; -- Please Support Your Lists This Month (And Get the Annual link Free title=http://www.aeroelectric.com/ sp; * The Builder's Bookstore http://www.matronics.com/c Thank you for your generous ; -Matt Dralle, List nbsp; Features Chat, http://www.matnbsp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com _============= www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.ae roelectric.comtitle=http://www.buildersbo oks.com/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www. buildersbooks.comhref="http://www.homebu ilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ctitle=htt p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?C ommander-Listhref="h ttp://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.m atronics.com www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Listhttp://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.ae roelectric.comtitle=http://www.buildersbo oks.com/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www. buildersbooks.comhref="http://www.homebu ilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ctitle=htt p://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?C ommander-Listhref="h ttp://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.m atronics.com www.aeroelectric.comwww.buildersbooks.comwww.homebuilthelp.comhttp://www. matronics.com/contributionhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-Li sthttp://forums.matronics.com www.aeroelectric.com www.buildersbooks.com www.homebuilthelp.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factors << From: yourtcfg@aol.com HI KIDS.All STD category airplanes are certified to +3.8Gs and - 1.5, no matter who makes them. Utility category is +4.4, and aerobatic +6 -3. The first Commander certified as a utility airplane was the 500U (Utility ). The gross weight of a single engine airplane is set by the structural G load for the appropriate category. You often see an airplane certified in both categories at different gross weights. (lower weight for operatio ns in the utility category) Multi engine airplanes gross weight is set by a combination of structural G loading and single engine climb performance. That is why you see different gross weights for the same Commander airframe. For instance, a straight 680 ha s the same engines as the 680E but has a gross weight 500 pounds less than a 680E. The E has a greater wingspan giving it a better climb rate at gr oss weight on one engine. When the 680s were converted to an "E" at the factory, they received the gross weight increases even though there were no structural improvements, only the increased wing span. Hope that helps. jb -----Original Message----- From: Keith S. Gordon Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factor s << I looked in TCDSs but did not find any reference to the structural limits, just loading and speed restrictions. Hello there, Old Bob, It's very subtle. I found the load limits in the TCDS under required plac ards. Not all a/c have placards about the load factors, so it's a hit or miss method. I think the AC-680 series and the T-Bones are a good side by side comparis on. The original question about load factors came from the NTSB incident report about a Commander coming apart in an area of T-storms flown by a non-instrument rated pilot in IMC. Given the weight and power of the aircraft in question, I gravitated towar ds the the BE-55/58 and CE300 series as being in a similar group. I proba bly did that because in the last millennium I was an AeroStar demo pilot and was always put to the task of selling that Ted Smith design against those Beech, Cessna and Piper products (and I just used to laugh at the Piper products until Piper bought AeroStar). It's an old habit, I guess. By the way, I never mentioned this to you but the first twin I never flew was Fes Parker's Excalibur T-Bone. One of the guys who bought it tossed me the keys (I was a flight instructor at Watsonville and that's where th e plane parked for a time) and told me to use if for my multi engine ratin g. I couldn't find an M.E.I. who knew anything about the airplane and the sca nt 5 page AFM in the airplane didn't inspire any of them to self check-out so they could give me dual. Too bad I didn't know about you or Dick Ward back in 1974. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: BobsV35B@aol.com Sent: Sat, Dec 11, 2010 3:59 pm Subject: Re: Commander-List: N500FV NTSB preliminary report >> Load Factor s << Good Evening Wing Commander Gordon, I looked in TCDSs but did not find any reference to the structural limits, just loading and speed restrictions. Incidentally, I don't think the Cessna 300 and 400 series or the Barons ar e in the same class as the Aero Commander. I think the best comparison air craft would be the Beechcraft Twin Bonanza Model 50. My personal favorite of that fleet is the D50B. Wonder how those two (AC and T-Bone) would compare if over stressed? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 12/11/2010 5:45:08 P.M. Central Standard Time, cloudcra ft@aol.com writes: Sir Barry, Well, that link I sent for Type Certificate Data Sheets bombed. This should work: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgM akeModel.nsf/ If not, just go to FAA.GOV and search for "type certificate data" and you' ll get a page with results and a link to their library. This begs the question: "What is a comparable aircraft?" You'll probably find that Barons and Cessna 300 and 400 series aircraft will all share th e same design data: 3.8g positive -- and some may give a negative G value , some not. However, they're all driven by Part 23.337: Sec. 23.337 Limit maneuvering load factors. (a) The positive limit maneuvering load factor n may not be less than-- (1) 2.1+ for normal category airplanes, except that n need not be more tha n 3.8 nor may it be less than 2.5; (2) 4.4 for utility category airplanes; or (3) 6.0 for acrobatic category airplanes. (b) The negative limit maneuvering load factor may not be less than-- (1) 0.4 times the positive load factor for the normal and utility categori es; or (2) 0.5 times the positive load factor for the acrobatic category. (c) Maneuvering load factors lower than those specified in this section ma y be used if the airplane has design features that make it impossible to exceed these values in flight. A manufacturer may decide to exceed the load factor strengths but I don't know where to find that, other than their advertising because to certify they must comply with Part 23 and that's all the FAA is interested in. (An example is the Falcon 20 I fly. It's certified in the US as a Normal category turbine, Part 25 (large) airplane. However, it's an 8 G airfram e and a 24 psi pressure vessel. All it needs to state as limitations for the TDC in the US is 2.5 Gs and 8.7 psi.) Wing Commander Gordon ======================== =========== ttp://www.aeroelectric.com/">www.aeroelectric.com m/ href="http://www.buildersbooks.com/">www.buildersbooks.com "http://www.homebuilthelp.com/">www.homebuilthelp.com tp://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== t href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ms.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ic.com">www.aeroelectric.com w.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com thelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com bution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== ator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== tp://forums.matronics.com ======================== ======================== =========== - -= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- -= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) - -= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on -= the Contribution link below to find out more about -= this year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided -= by: -= -= * AeroElectric www.aeroelectric.com -= * The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com -= * HomebuiltHELP www.homebuilthelp.com - -= List Contribution Web Site: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution - -= Thank you for your generous support! - -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:19 PM PST US From: "cybersuperstore" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Facebook page Tom Do you have an email adres to which I can send it off the list? Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 2:21 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page I would like to change some of that story now that I am better informed but I understand that what is ever out there stays out there. T... ----- Original Message ----- From: cybersuperstore Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:49 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Facebook page Hi Tom. Yes, I made reference to the fact that you lost that particular bird in the ocean with some other precious things. I have the whole story and additional pictures somewhere and will eventually come across it. I'll add the registration to the pics. Thanks Nico _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page The green 500B was mine and you are missing the Canadian registration C-FBCR. I like the site. Tom... ----- Original Message ----- From: cybersuperstore Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 8:49 PM Subject: Commander-List: Facebook page Folks, I added another bunch of photographs to the Aero Commander Facebook Page. http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884 Click on the Like This button to be notified when new stuff goes up. If you find anything out of place or duplicated, or have suggestions as how to arrange things, I welcome suggestions. Thanks Nico href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com /Navigator?Commander-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:12 PM PST US From: Gary Wilson Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page Nice pussy lips Sent from my iPhone On Dec 12, 2010, at 12:13 AM, "cybersuperstore" w rote: > Tom > Do you have an email adres to which I can send it off the list? > Nico > > > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 2:21 PM > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page > > I would like to change some of that story now that I am better informed bu t I understand that what is ever out there stays out there. > T... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cybersuperstore > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:49 PM > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Facebook page > > Hi Tom. > Yes, I made reference to the fact that you lost that particular bird in th e ocean with some other precious things. I have the whole story and addition al pictures somewhere and will eventually come across it. I'll add the regis tration to the pics. > Thanks > Nico > > > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Fisher > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 1:29 PM > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Facebook page > > The green 500B was mine and you are missing the Canadian registration C-FB CR. > I like the site. > Tom... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cybersuperstore > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 8:49 PM > Subject: Commander-List: Facebook page > > Folks, > > I added another bunch of photographs to the Aero Commander Facebook Page. > > http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Aero-Commander/144424762275884 > > Click on the Like This button to be notified when new stuff goes up. > > If you find anything out of place or duplicated, or have suggestions as ho w to arrange things, I welcome suggestions. > > Thanks > > > Nico > > > > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Commander-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Commander-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Commander-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com > href="http://www.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ch ref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Commander-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.