---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/13/10: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:26 AM - DC 10 (Dan Farmer) 2. 08:26 AM - Re: DC 10 (Keith S. Gordon) 3. 09:11 AM - Re: DC 10 (White_rhino_ps) 4. 09:36 AM - Re: DC 10 (Keith S. Gordon) 5. 10:16 AM - Re: DC 10 (dongirod) 6. 10:37 AM - Re: DC 10 (dongirod) 7. 11:22 AM - Class B speed (dongirod) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:30 AM PST US From: Dan Farmer Subject: Commander-List: DC 10 At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing, he said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that are not so. Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insight into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to the elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of ORD that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices on the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraft to roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S could retract. As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story. Most DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no 200k speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life that haveclean minimummaneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being one of them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As I recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on weight. dan farmer N6369U ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: DC 10 From: "Keith S. Gordon" As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story. I never worked for American Airlines and never flew the DC-10, but this sc enario is mentioned in every initial type rating training and recurrent I' ve been through since that crash when the question is asked about engine failure at a speed greater than V2: To pitch up to V2 speed or maintain current speed? The AA DC-10 crash at KORD is used as an example of why to maintain the gr eater speed. In this crash the captain did exactly what he was trained to do: pitch to V2 -- and the airplane rolled as Dan explained. In working the scenario in the simulator with the leading edge devices ret racted on one wing and extended on the other it was found that the aircraf t would have been controllable at V2 +. Not all jets have leading edge devices so there are also some (more) valid reasons to maintain your current speed after an engine failure airborne beyond V2 but those have to do with aerodynamics -- you know, L over D cu rves and all that complicated stuff. Since this is a Twin Commander email net I think it's important to point out we've been discussing heavy jets. An engine failure in a Twin Comma nder should be handled by maintaining Vyse or Vxse at the slowest. Keith S. Gordon Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: Dan Farmer Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:24 am Subject: Commander-List: DC 10 At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing , he said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that ar e not so. Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insig ht into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to the elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of ORD that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices on the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraf t to roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S cou ld retract. As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story. Most DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no 200k speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life that have clean minimum maneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being on e of them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As I recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on weight. dan farmer N6369U ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:12 AM PST US From: White_rhino_ps Subject: Re: Commander-List: DC 10 Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F? =46rom my iPhone 4! On Dec 13, 2010, at 8:20 AM, "Keith S. Gordon" wrote: > As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story. > > I never worked for American Airlines and never flew the DC-10, but this sc enario is mentioned in every initial type rating training and recurrent I've been through since that crash when the question is asked about engine failu re at a speed greater than V2: To pitch up to V2 speed or maintain current s peed? > > The AA DC-10 crash at KORD is used as an example of why to maintain the gr eater speed. In this crash the captain did exactly what he was trained to d o: pitch to V2 -- and the airplane rolled as Dan explained. > > In working the scenario in the simulator with the leading edge devices ret racted on one wing and extended on the other it was found that the aircraft w ould have been controllable at V2 +. > > Not all jets have leading edge devices so there are also some (more) valid reasons to maintain your current speed after an engine failure airborne bey ond V2 but those have to do with aerodynamics -- you know, L over D curves a nd all that complicated stuff. > > Since this is a Twin Commander email net I think it's important to point o ut we've been discussing heavy jets. An engine failure in a Twin Commander should be handled by maintaining Vyse or Vxse at the slowest. > > Keith S. Gordon > Wing Commander Gordon > > Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. > NBAA Access Committee > Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep > Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep > Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Farmer > To: commander-list-digest@matronics.com > Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:24 am > Subject: Commander-List: DC 10 > > > > > > > At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing , he > > > said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that ar e not > > > so. > > > > > > Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insig ht > > > into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in > > > Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to the > > > elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of O RD > > > that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft > > > taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices on > > > the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraf t to > > > roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge > > > devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S cou ld > > > retract. > > > As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story. Most > > > > > > DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no 200k > > > speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life t hat > > > have clean minimum maneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being on e of > > > them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get > > > permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As I > > > recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on > > > weight. > > > dan farmer > > > N6369U > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========================= > > > > > > > > > > > > "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com > > > m" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com > > > ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com > > > > > > "_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > > > > > > ========================= > > > > > > > > > t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > > > > ========================= > > > > > > ttp://forums.matronics.com > > > > ========================= > > > > > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:50 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: DC 10 From: "Keith S. Gordon" Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F? The very short answer is, "no." Sorry! ~KG~ -----Original Message----- From: White_rhino_ps Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 9:08 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: DC 10 Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F? >From my iPhone 4! On Dec 13, 2010, at 8:20 AM, "Keith S. Gordon" wrote: As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story. I never worked for American Airlines and never flew the DC-10, but this sc enario is mentioned in every initial type rating training and recurrent I' ve been through since that crash when the question is asked about engine failure at a speed greater than V2: To pitch up to V2 speed or maintain current speed? The AA DC-10 crash at KORD is used as an example of why to maintain the gr eater speed. In this crash the captain did exactly what he was trained to do: pitch to V2 -- and the airplane rolled as Dan explained. In working the scenario in the simulator with the leading edge devices ret racted on one wing and extended on the other it was found that the aircraf t would have been controllable at V2 +. Not all jets have leading edge devices so there are also some (more) valid reasons to maintain your current speed after an engine failure airborne beyond V2 but those have to do with aerodynamics -- you know, L over D cu rves and all that complicated stuff. Since this is a Twin Commander email net I think it's important to point out we've been discussing heavy jets. An engine failure in a Twin Comma nder should be handled by maintaining Vyse or Vxse at the slowest. Keith S. Gordon Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: Dan Farmer Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:24 am Subject: Commander-List: DC 10 At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing , he said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that ar e not so. Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insig ht into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to the elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of ORD that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices on the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraf t to roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S cou ld retract. As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story. Most DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no 200k speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life that have clean minimum maneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being on e of them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As I recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on weight. dan farmer N6369U ======================== =========== "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com m" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com "_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ======================== =========== t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ======================== =========== ttp://forums.matronics.com ======================== =========== =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3 D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:43 AM PST US From: "dongirod" Subject: Re: Commander-List: DC 10 I believe for my 560E, it is 90 knots with 110 knots as the best single engine climb speed. Don From: Keith S. Gordon Sent: Monday, December 13, 2010 12:26 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: DC 10 Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F? The very short answer is, "no." Sorry! ~KG~ -----Original Message----- From: White_rhino_ps Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 9:08 am Subject: Re: Commander-List: DC 10 Do you happen to know those speeds for a 560F? >From my iPhone 4! On Dec 13, 2010, at 8:20 AM, "Keith S. Gordon" wrote: As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story. I never worked for American Airlines and never flew the DC-10, but this scenario is mentioned in every initial type rating training and recurrent I've been through since that crash when the question is asked about engine failure at a speed greater than V2: To pitch up to V2 speed or maintain current speed? The AA DC-10 crash at KORD is used as an example of why to maintain the greater speed. In this crash the captain did exactly what he was trained to do: pitch to V2 -- and the airplane rolled as Dan explained. In working the scenario in the simulator with the leading edge devices retracted on one wing and extended on the other it was found that the aircraft would have been controllable at V2 +. Not all jets have leading edge devices so there are also some (more) valid reasons to maintain your current speed after an engine failure airborne beyond V2 but those have to do with aerodynamics -- you know, L over D curves and all that complicated stuff. Since this is a Twin Commander email net I think it's important to point out we've been discussing heavy jets. An engine failure in a Twin Commander should be handled by maintaining Vyse or Vxse at the slowest. Keith S. Gordon Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: Dan Farmer To: commander-list-digest@matronics.com Sent: Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:24 am Subject: Commander-List: DC 10 At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing, he said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that are not so. Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insight into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to the elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of ORD that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices on the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraft to roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S could retract. As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story. Most DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no 200k speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life that have clean minimum maneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being one of them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As I recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on weight. dan farmer N6369U "_blank">www.aeroelectric.com m" target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com ="_blank">www.homebuilthelp.com "_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution t" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D br> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:37:59 AM PST US From: "dongirod" Subject: Re: Commander-List: DC 10 Dan Never having flown the DC-10, I was not aware of the exemption. I remember in Eastern training in MIA, think it was B-727, and the pilot sped up to 250K after leaving MIA going to Nassau, to which the instructor asked him about a violation. He stated he was out of the TCA, but what he didn't realize was when he left MIA TCA he was in Nassau's TCA so he was never allow to go from 200K to 250 K. I do know that single engine fighters are exempt due to minimum engine start speeds. You stated there is no 200K speed restriction in the TCA? I was under the impression there was a speed restriction within 5 nm (I think) and below maybe 3,000 ft., is this not so or does it fall under you Ronald Reagan classification? Thanks for the info, learn something every day. Don Subject: Commander-List: DC 10 At the risk of falling into Ronald Reagan's classifications: paraphrasing, he said most people will not lie to you they just know so many things that are not so. Since I flew for American Airlines from 1977 to 2008 I have a little insight into the two DC 10 Accidents mention in this forum. There was a DC 10 in Detroit that survived a structural failure which crushed control cables to the elevator. I think this was in the early 70's. Then there was DC10 out of ORD that crashed on take off after the left engine separated from the aircraft taking out a lot of the hydraulic lines which let the leading edge devices on the left wing blow in. This caused the left wing to stall and the aircraft to roll. After this accident the FAA required lock outs on the leading edge devices (LED) so that the flaps had to be command up before the LED'S could retract. As to the DC 10 Capt not slowing down, I think it just makes a good story. Most DC10's make approaches and departures in Class B or old TCA's. There is no 200k speed limit in Class B airspace. I have flown three airplanes in my life that have clean minimum maneuvering speeds in excess of 250K, the DC10 being one of them, so there is an exemption to the speed limit. You do not have to get permission, ATC knows and they know you will be exceeding the limit. As I recall the clean min man of a DC10 is 280k and can be higher depending on weight. dan farmer N6369U ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:08 AM PST US From: "dongirod" Subject: Commander-List: Class B speed Dan Here is what I was looking for, contrary to Ronald Reagan; Lets have a look at 91.117 (b): "Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (...)" 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