---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/22/10: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 11:20 AM - Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer) (Peter Bichier) 2. 12:43 PM - Re: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer) (Keith S. Gordon) 3. 12:56 PM - Re: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer) (Cate Chagnot) 4. 01:43 PM - Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander 560 (Marcos Della) 5. 01:54 PM - Re: Re: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer) (White_rhino_ps) 6. 01:55 PM - Re: Re: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer) (Brock Lorber) 7. 02:49 PM - (Jim Addington) 8. 03:51 PM - Re: (Steele, Bob) 9. 04:14 PM - Re: (Jim Addington) 10. 07:06 PM - Re: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander 560 (Jack B. Mills) 11. 08:01 PM - Re: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander 560 (Donnie Rose) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 11:20:45 AM PST US From: Peter Bichier Subject: Commander-List: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer) Have you guys heard of this one? a beautiful 560E that use to belong to Delaware Police, sold and crashed... Here is NTSB's report: NTSB Identification: ERA10LA457 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Tuesday, August 31, 2010 in Jacksonville, FL Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 560E, registration: N175SP Injuries: 2 Uninjured. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed. On August 31, 2010, about 0815 eastern daylight time, an Aero Commander 560E, N175SP (previously registered as N6SP), was substantially damaged during a forced landing, after experiencing a loss of engine power during the initial climb after takeoff from the Herlong Airport (HEG), Jacksonville, Florida. The certificated private pilot and a certificated flight instructor (CFI) were not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan had been filed for the flight destined for Craig Municipal Airport (CRG), also located in Jacksonville, Florida. The personal flight was conducted under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. During an interview, the pilot reported that he purchased the airplane on June 19, 2010. The airplane was previously owned by the Delaware State Police, and had not been flown for over 1 year. On July 23, 2010, after maintenance which included an annual inspection, the pilot took delivery of the airplane in Delaware, and flew it to HEG. The purpose of the accident flight was to fly to CRG for avionics related maintenance. The pilot performed a preflight inspection, which included checking the fuel tanks for water contamination, prior to the flight. The pilot and CFI, who the pilot considered a safety pilot per insurance requirements, departed without incident. The airplane was in a climb between 1,500 and 2,000 feet, when the left engine quit. The pilot successfully feathered the engine; however, shortly thereafter, the right engine began to "sputter" and also quit. The pilot was unable to restore engine power in either engine, and performed a forced landing to Interstate I-10. During the landing, the airplane struck trees, which resulted in substantial damage to both wings and the fuselage. The CFI reported that he assumed control of the airplane immediately after the left engine failed. He secured the left engine and subsequently maneuvered the airplane for the forced landing. While on approach, he observed power lines which necessitated lowering the airplane's nose, and increased the touchdown airspeed. During the landing roll, the airplane's right tire departed the paved surface, and the airplane veered into trees, toward a fence. The airplane was subsequently removed from the accident site for further examination to be conducted under the supervision of a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector, at a later date. The pilot further reported that the airplane had been operated for about 20 hours since it was purchased, and was last flown on August 11, 2010. At that time, fuel was added to the airplane which brought the total fuel on board to approximately 80 gallons in the main fuel tanks, and 20 gallons in the auxiliary fuel tanks. The pilot reported 250 hours of total flight experience, which included about 90 hours in multiengine airplanes. His most recent application for an FAA third-class medical certificate was issued on September 15, 2009. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:20 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer) From: "Keith S. Gordon" Very likely fuel contamination but we can't rule out pilot error. Were the fuel selectors set to the outboard tanks? A 680E crashed in Lakeland, FL, about 13 or 14 years ago because of that -- fuel selectors set on the outboard tanks for take-off. On top of that , the pilot was unfamiliar with the Aero Commander and had just finished up instrument training in a Beech Dutchess which added to the mishandling / confusion of the aircraft's systems and operating procedures. How experienced in make/model and Aero Commanders, in general were the pil ot and the safety pilot? That's all part of the mix. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. FAASTeam NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: Peter Bichier Sent: Wed, Dec 22, 2010 11:15 am Subject: Commander-List: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer) Have you guys heard of this one? a beautiful 560E that use to belong to Delaware Police, sold and crashed.. .. Here is NTSB's report: NTSB Identification: ERA10LA457 14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation Accident occurred Tuesday, August 31, 2010 in Jacksonville, FL Aircraft: AERO COMMANDER 560E, registration: N175SP Injuries: 2 Uninjured. This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors . Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has be en completed. On August 31, 2010, about 0815 eastern daylight time, an Aero Commander 56 0E, N175SP (previously registered as N6SP), was substantially damaged duri ng a forced landing, after experiencing a loss of engine power during the initial climb after takeoff from the Herlong Airport (HEG), Jacksonville, Florida. The certificated private pilot and a certificated flight instruc tor (CFI) were not injured. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan had been filed for the flight destined for Craig Municipal Airport (CRG), also located in Jacksonville, Florida. The personal flight was conducted under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. During an interview, the pilot reported that he purchased the airplane on June 19, 2010. The airplane was previously owned by the Delaware State Po lice, and had not been flown for over 1 year. On July 23, 2010, after main tenance which included an annual inspection, the pilot took delivery of th e airplane in Delaware, and flew it to HEG. The purpose of the accident flight was to fly to CRG for avionics related maintenance. The pilot performed a preflight inspection, which included checking the fuel tanks for water contamination, prior to the flight. The pilot and CFI, who the pilot considered a safety pilot per insurance requ irements, departed without incident. The airplane was in a climb between 1,500 and 2,000 feet, when the left engine quit. The pilot successfully feathered the engine; however, shortly thereafter, the right engine began to "sputter" and also quit. The pilot was unable to restore engine power in either engine, and performed a forced landing to Interstate I-10. Duri ng the landing, the airplane struck trees, which resulted in substantial damage to both wings and the fuselage. The CFI reported that he assumed control of the airplane immediately after the left engine failed. He secured the left engine and subsequently maneu vered the airplane for the forced landing. While on approach, he observed power lines which necessitated lowering the airplane's nose, and increase d the touchdown airspeed. During the landing roll, the airplane's right ti re departed the paved surface, and the airplane veered into trees, toward a fence. The airplane was subsequently removed from the accident site for further examination to be conducted under the supervision of a Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector, at a later date. The pilot further reported that the airplane had been operated for about 20 hours since it was purchased, and was last flown on August 11, 2010. At that time, fuel was added to the airplane which brought the total fuel on board to approximately 80 gallons in the main fuel tanks, and 20 gallo ns in the auxiliary fuel tanks. The pilot reported 250 hours of total flight experience, which included ab out 90 hours in multiengine airplanes. His most recent application for an FAA third-class medical certificate was issued on September 15, 2009. ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:18 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer) From: "Cate Chagnot" Makes me wonder who was actually PIC, the pilot/owner or the CFI? It seems that the CFI took over when the left engine quit and then dealt with the right engine failure and landing. I'm sure both were working hard at doing everything they could but who gets the credit for the landing? Cate N4278S -------- Cate N4278S 680E Skywagon N180PK Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324152#324152 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:58 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander 560 From: Marcos Della Hi folks, I've been looking for this for awhile just to get an idea of what the original wiring in my commander was supposed to look like. Probably 40-50% of the wiring has been "upgraded/replaced/modified" however much of the older braided wiring is still in place and connecting to things that few of the A/Ps around here can readily identify. At least for function we can figure much out, but not necessary where the wires go from there. Since this is a restoration project, I'm not in any time rush, but would like to get a handle on much of the wiring (and the removal of much of the older unused wiring) while the plane is in pieces... Marcos P.S. This is for an Aero Commander 560 (GO-480 engines). ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:54:39 PM PST US From: White_rhino_ps Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer) If you check the Jacksonville News on that day, they had a number of color pictures posted. >From my iPhone 4! On Dec 22, 2010, at 12:54 PM, "Cate Chagnot" wrote: > > Makes me wonder who was actually PIC, the pilot/owner or the CFI? It seems that the CFI took over when the left engine quit and then dealt with the right engine failure and landing. I'm sure both were working hard at doing everything they could but who gets the credit for the landing? > > Cate > N4278S > > -------- > Cate > > N4278S 680E > Skywagon N180PK > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324152#324152 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:55:53 PM PST US From: Brock Lorber Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Another fuel contamination case? (from this past summer) I can't believe the CFI would admit to taking the controls. The only benefit to being a CFI is to log PIC/approaches/landings without officially doing a darn thing but enjoying the scenery. :-) Emergency expectations are part of my portion of the pre-flight brief: "You are the pilot-in-command. In case of emergency, you will remain the pilot-in-command. At no time will I take the controls unless you request it, and then we will do a positive exchange of controls. You say, 'you have the controls.' I will respond, 'I have the controls,' and shake the stick." Of course, I'm always available to assist and/or nudge in the right direction. ;-) Cate Chagnot wrote: > > Makes me wonder who was actually PIC, the pilot/owner or the CFI? It seems that the CFI took over when the left engine quit and then dealt with the right engine failure and landing. I'm sure both were working hard at doing everything they could but who gets the credit for the landing? > > Cate > N4278S > > -------- > Cate > > N4278S 680E > Skywagon N180PK > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=324152#324152 > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:10 PM PST US From: "Jim Addington" Subject: Commander-List: Does any one have or know where I can find a copy of the FAA vs. Mr. Claus. It is where the FAA inspector is going to give Santa a big violation. He can not find where he has a medical much less an IFR ticket and he is sure that the spar in the slay is not strong enough to carry all those toys. He knows that one red light is not legal for night and he also knows that flying one night a year does not meet the rules for IFR. It has a lot more. Jim N444BD ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:16 PM PST US Subject: RE: Commander-List: From: "Steele, Bob" Not the one you are looking for - but still funny! Santa and the FAA > Santa Claus, like all pilots, gets regular visits from > the Federal Aviation Administration, and it was shortly before Christmas > when the FAA examiner arrived. > In preparation, Santa had the elves wash the sled and > bathe all the reindeer. Santa got out his logbook and made sure all his > paperwork was in order. > The examiner walked slowly around the sled. He checked > the reindeer harnesses, the landing gear, and Rudolph's nose. He > painstakingly reviewed Santa's weight and balance calculations for the > sled's enormous payload. > Finally, they were ready for the checkride. Santa got in > and fastened his seatbelt and shoulder harness, and checked the compass. > Then the examiner hopped in carrying, to Santa's surprise, a shotgun. > "What's that for?" asked Santa incredulously. > The examiner winked and said, "I'm not supposed to tell > you this, but you're gonna lose an engine on takeoff." -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Addington Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 5:46 PM Subject: Commander-List: Does any one have or know where I can find a copy of the FAA vs. Mr. Claus. It is where the FAA inspector is going to give Santa a big violation. He can not find where he has a medical much less an IFR ticket and he is sure that the spar in the slay is not strong enough to carry all those toys. He knows that one red light is not legal for night and he also knows that flying one night a year does not meet the rules for IFR. It has a lot more. Jim N444BD ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:14:26 PM PST US From: "Jim Addington" Subject: RE: Commander-List: There was another one on the FAA and the STC pencil. Jim N444BD -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steele, Bob Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 5:10 PM Subject: RE: Commander-List: Not the one you are looking for - but still funny! Santa and the FAA > Santa Claus, like all pilots, gets regular visits from > the Federal Aviation Administration, and it was shortly before Christmas > when the FAA examiner arrived. > In preparation, Santa had the elves wash the sled and > bathe all the reindeer. Santa got out his logbook and made sure all his > paperwork was in order. > The examiner walked slowly around the sled. He checked > the reindeer harnesses, the landing gear, and Rudolph's nose. He > painstakingly reviewed Santa's weight and balance calculations for the > sled's enormous payload. > Finally, they were ready for the checkride. Santa got in > and fastened his seatbelt and shoulder harness, and checked the compass. > Then the examiner hopped in carrying, to Santa's surprise, a shotgun. > "What's that for?" asked Santa incredulously. > The examiner winked and said, "I'm not supposed to tell > you this, but you're gonna lose an engine on takeoff." -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Addington Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 5:46 PM Subject: Commander-List: Does any one have or know where I can find a copy of the FAA vs. Mr. Claus. It is where the FAA inspector is going to give Santa a big violation. He can not find where he has a medical much less an IFR ticket and he is sure that the spar in the slay is not strong enough to carry all those toys. He knows that one red light is not legal for night and he also knows that flying one night a year does not meet the rules for IFR. It has a lot more. Jim N444BD ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:17 PM PST US From: "Jack B. Mills" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander 560 Hi Marcos, Good luck on this one. Several years ago we removed 42 pounds of unused wire and cannon plugs in my 680Fp. The problem with using the original wiring diagram is that the maintenance manual that you can get probably does not relate to your particular aircraft. We had to literally trace down each wire. Be careful, as some wiring will effect more than one instrument (for instance wiring from an old auto pilot that was removed twenty years ago may effect the elevator trim tab and HIS when the wiring from it is removed). Moe From: Marcos Della Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: Commander-List: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander 560 Hi folks, I've been looking for this for awhile just to get an idea of what the original wiring in my commander was supposed to look like. Probably 40-50% of the wiring has been "upgraded/replaced/modified" however much of the older braided wiring is still in place and connecting to things that few of the A/Ps around here can readily identify. At least for function we can figure much out, but not necessary where the wires go from there. Since this is a restoration project, I'm not in any time rush, but would like to get a handle on much of the wiring (and the removal of much of the older unused wiring) while the plane is in pieces... Marcos P.S. This is for an Aero Commander 560 (GO-480 engines). ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:02 PM PST US From: Donnie Rose Subject: Re: Commander-List: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero Commander 560 and then what wiring replaces it?=0A-=0ADonnie Rose =0A205/492-8444=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Jack B. Mills =0ATo: commander-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, Decem ber 22, 2010 10:04:28 PM=0ASubject: Re: Commander-List: Looking for a wirin g diagram/manual for an Aero =0ACommander 560=0A=0A=0AHi Marcos,=0A-=0AGo od luck on this one.- Several years ago we removed 42 pounds of unused wi re =0Aand cannon plugs in my 680Fp.- The problem with using the original wiring =0Adiagram is that the maintenance manual that you can get probably does not relate =0Ato your particular aircraft.- We had to literally trac e down each wire.- Be =0Acareful, as some wiring will effect more than on e instrument (for instance =0Awiring from an old auto pilot that was remove d twenty years ago may effect the =0Aelevator trim tab and HIS when the wir ing from it is removed).=0A-=0AMoe=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: Marcos Della =0ASent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 1:41 PM=0ATo: commander-list =0ASubject: Comm ander-List: Looking for a wiring diagram/manual for an Aero =0ACommander 56 0=0AHi folks, I've been looking for this for awhile just to get an idea of what the =0Aoriginal wiring in my commander was supposed to look like.- P robably 40-50% of =0Athe wiring has been "upgraded/replaced/modified" howev er much of the older =0Abraided wiring is still in place and connecting to things that few of the A/Ps =0Aaround here can readily identify.- At leas t for function we can figure much out, =0Abut not necessary where the wires go from there.- Since this is a restoration =0Aproject, I'm not in any t ime rush, but would like to get a handle on much of the =0Awiring (and the removal of much of the older unused wiring) while the plane is =0Ain pieces ...=0A=0AMarcos=0A=0AP.S. This is for an Aero Commander 560 (GO-480 engines ).=0A=0A href="http://www.aeroelectric.com">www.aeroelectric.com =0Ahref ="http://www.buildersbooks.com">www.buildersbooks.com =0Ahref="http://w ww.homebuilthelp.com">www.homebuilthelp.com =0Ahref="http://www.matronics .com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-L isthref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A =0A -======================== ======= =0A=0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.