Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:31 AM - Re: Twin & Turbine Article (BobsV35B@aol.com)
2. 06:20 AM - Re: Twin & Turbine Article (Jim Janaitis)
3. 06:31 AM - Re: Twin & Turbine Article (cybersuperstore)
4. 06:25 PM - Re: Re: Twin & Turbine Article (William J Hamilton)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Twin & Turbine Article |
Good Morning Bill,
If I may expand on your comments just a bit:
We should designate whether we are discussing Fahrenheit or Celsius
temperatures.
The absolutely hottest and most potentially harmful place to operate any
normal conforming piston engine is around fifty to sixty degrees Fahrenheit
rich of peak EGT.
That is also the point where the engine will develop the most power
possible given the amount of air being pumped through it. If it is normally
aspirated and being operated above sixty-five to seventy-five percent power, it
should be run at least 100 degrees Fahrenheit richer than peak EGT.
Preferably one hundred and fifty.
If you want to get the most power possible out of every drop of fuel being
used, you must operate on the lean side of peak somewhere between twenty
and eighty degrees Fahrenheit. Twenty degrees works for power settings around
fifty per cent and eighty lean of peak works well for supercharged engines
that can be operated as high as eighty per cent power. The absolute worst
place to operate a normally aspirated engine is fifty rich of peak at a
power above sixty-five percent.
Below sixty-five percent power you can't hurt the engine with the mixture
control.
All temperatures in Fahrenheit of course!<G>
All of the above assumes balanced fuel flow to each of those little engines
that are connected to the same crankshaft.
Does that agree with your thinking?
It IS what I was taught in Ada at the Advanced Pilot Seminars. <G>
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/28/2010 12:36:37 A.M. Central Standard Time,
wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au writes:
--> Commander-List message posted by: William J Hamilton
<wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
Folks,
Read the article, made me more than a little envious.
However, there was one quite disturbing "recommendation" in using the JPI
to run the engines 20 degrees on the rich side of peak EGT, a recipe for
maximizing the chance of detonation. If you want to run rich of peak, make it
more like 40+ colder.
If the engines had a set of GAMI injectors, you would be able to run on
the lean side of peak EGT. Another furphie ( an Australian expression --- a
bit like a factual Murphie --- but that ain't where the word came from) is
that minimum fuel flow is at peak EGT ---- not if you are running lean of
peak, it isn't.
I also notice another bit of disinformation in another article about
in-flight icing, repeating "old wives tales" about the temperature range for
icing, we have known better for the last 40 or so years.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
> Bichier, Peter <Peter.Bichier@utoledo.edu> wrote:
>
> Commanders,
>
> Dianne White (Twin & Turbine editor) kindly shared the article with me:
>
> Follow this link to the e-edition!
>
> http://digital.turn-page.com/issue/20532
>
> Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!
>
> Peter Bichier
> Lake Erie Center (Univeristy of Toledo)
> Department of Environmental Sciences
> (419) 530-8384
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Barry
> Collman
> Sent: Mon 12/27/2010 10:22 AM
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article
>
> Hello Randy,
>
> I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of mine
> who
> owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published.
>
> I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to be
> sent to him by the publishers.
>
> Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for
> 2011.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Barry
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Twin & Turbine Article |
Jim Janaitis-----------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "cybersuperstore" [nico@cybersuperstore.com]
Sent: 12/27/2010 08:47 AM PST
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article
Hi Barry,
Would it be presumptuous to hope that the Commander list's members would get
an advance copy of the book when it goes on sale?
Nico
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Barry
Collman
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 7:22 AM
Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article
Hello Randy,
I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of mine who
owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published.
I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to be
sent to him by the publishers.
Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for 2011.
Best Regards,
Barry
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy
Dettmer, AIA
Sent: 27 December 2010 14:38
Subject: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article
Great article in the latest "Twin & Turbine" magazine about the Shrike
Commander (Cover article). Also kudos to Barry Coleman for a mention of his
upcoming book about Commanders. Nice going Barry. Happy New Year
everyone..!!
Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB
680F / N6253X
Dettmer Architecture
663 Hill Street
San Luis Obispo, CA 93405
805 541 4864 / Fax 805 541 4865
www.dettmerarchitecture.com
Message 3
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| Subject: | Twin & Turbine Article |
That resonates with what I was taught. But, that was in Africa, so you never
know. :-D
_____
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
BobsV35B@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 3:27 AM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article
Good Morning Bill,
If I may expand on your comments just a bit:
We should designate whether we are discussing Fahrenheit or Celsius
temperatures.
The absolutely hottest and most potentially harmful place to operate any
normal conforming piston engine is around fifty to sixty degrees Fahrenheit
rich of peak EGT.
That is also the point where the engine will develop the most power possible
given the amount of air being pumped through it. If it is normally aspirated
and being operated above sixty-five to seventy-five percent power, it should
be run at least 100 degrees Fahrenheit richer than peak EGT. Preferably one
hundred and fifty.
If you want to get the most power possible out of every drop of fuel being
used, you must operate on the lean side of peak somewhere between twenty and
eighty degrees Fahrenheit. Twenty degrees works for power settings around
fifty per cent and eighty lean of peak works well for supercharged engines
that can be operated as high as eighty per cent power. The absolute worst
place to operate a normally aspirated engine is fifty rich of peak at a
power above sixty-five percent.
Below sixty-five percent power you can't hurt the engine with the mixture
control.
All temperatures in Fahrenheit of course!<G>
All of the above assumes balanced fuel flow to each of those little engines
that are connected to the same crankshaft.
Does that agree with your thinking?
It IS what I was taught in Ada at the Advanced Pilot Seminars. <G>
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
In a message dated 12/28/2010 12:36:37 A.M. Central Standard Time,
wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au writes:
<wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
Folks,
Read the article, made me more than a little envious.
However, there was one quite disturbing "recommendation" in using the JPI to
run the engines 20 degrees on the rich side of peak EGT, a recipe for
maximizing the chance of detonation. If you want to run rich of peak, make
it more like 40+ colder.
If the engines had a set of GAMI injectors, you would be able to run on the
lean side of peak EGT. Another furphie ( an Australian expression --- a bit
like a factual Murphie --- but that ain't where the word came from) is that
minimum fuel flow is at peak EGT ---- not if you are running lean of peak,
it isn't.
I also notice another bit of disinformation in another article about
in-flight icing, repeating "old wives tales" about the temperature range for
icing, we have known better for the last 40 or so years.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
> Bichier, Peter <Peter.Bichier@utoledo.edu> wrote:
>
> Commanders,
>
> Dianne White (Twin & Turbine editor) kindly shared the article with me:
>
> Follow this link to the e-edition!
>
> http://digital.turn-page.com/issue/20532
>
> Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!
>
> Peter Bichier
> Lake Erie Center (Univeristy of Toledo)
> Department of Environmental Sciences
> (419) 530-8384
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Barry
> Collman
> Sent: Mon 12/27/2010 10:22 AM
> To: commander-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article
>
> Hello Randy,
>
> I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of mine
> who
> owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published.
>
> I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to be
> sent to him by the publishers.
>
> Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for
> 2011.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Barry
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Twin & Turbine Article |
Old Bob,
I agree with you entirely.
I have been operating IO-540 Lycoming lean of peak since the 1960's, using 6 point
temp. probes on all exhaust pipes, the relatively recent availability of calibrated
injectors (GAMI) improves the efficiency even further.
Factory "recommendations" have varied over the years, but I still have the Lycoming
(not Piper) engine handbook for the first IO-540 we ever had, in a 260C Comanche,
and the lean of peak recommendations were clear and simple.
Quite apart from the fuel savings ( there are equal HP point either side of the
peak HP point of the power curve) lean of peak running left us with (then) 1500h
TBO cylinders that were so little worn that it was often possible to just
deglaze, without boring oversize. As you mentioned, running on the air cold side
of peak EGT means the mixture is too week for detonation.
Admittedly, we always ran with filter on both the hot and cold air, which helps
in dusty conditions. And we always ran high boost, low rpm, essentially full
throttle from takeoff, just winding the RPM back on climb, to give the % power
required, until TOD.
If and when I get the -500A back in the air, it will have GAMI and 6 point EGT
on the IO-470s (or maybe 520s, if I can manage it, $$$) and lean of peak will
be the order of the day.
Cheers,
Bill Hamilton
> BobsV35B@aol.com wrote:
>
> Good Morning Bill,
>
> If I may expand on your comments just a bit:
>
> We should designate whether we are discussing Fahrenheit or Celsius
> temperatures.
>
> The absolutely hottest and most potentially harmful place to operate any
>
> normal conforming piston engine is around fifty to sixty degrees
> Fahrenheit
> rich of peak EGT.
>
> That is also the point where the engine will develop the most power
> possible given the amount of air being pumped through it. If it is
> normally
> aspirated and being operated above sixty-five to seventy-five percent
> power, it
> should be run at least 100 degrees Fahrenheit richer than peak EGT.
> Preferably one hundred and fifty.
>
> If you want to get the most power possible out of every drop of fuel
> being
> used, you must operate on the lean side of peak somewhere between twenty
>
> and eighty degrees Fahrenheit. Twenty degrees works for power settings
> around
> fifty per cent and eighty lean of peak works well for supercharged
> engines
> that can be operated as high as eighty per cent power. The absolute
> worst
> place to operate a normally aspirated engine is fifty rich of peak at a
>
> power above sixty-five percent.
>
> Below sixty-five percent power you can't hurt the engine with the
> mixture
> control.
>
> All temperatures in Fahrenheit of course!<G>
>
> All of the above assumes balanced fuel flow to each of those little
> engines
> that are connected to the same crankshaft.
>
> Does that agree with your thinking?
>
> It IS what I was taught in Ada at the Advanced Pilot Seminars. <G>
>
> Happy Skies,
>
> Old Bob
>
>
> In a message dated 12/28/2010 12:36:37 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au writes:
>
> --> Commander-List message posted by: William J Hamilton
> <wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au>
>
> Folks,
> Read the article, made me more than a little envious.
> However, there was one quite disturbing "recommendation" in using the
> JPI
> to run the engines 20 degrees on the rich side of peak EGT, a recipe
> for
> maximizing the chance of detonation. If you want to run rich of peak,
> make it
> more like 40+ colder.
> If the engines had a set of GAMI injectors, you would be able to run on
>
> the lean side of peak EGT. Another furphie ( an Australian expression
> --- a
> bit like a factual Murphie --- but that ain't where the word came from)
> is
> that minimum fuel flow is at peak EGT ---- not if you are running lean
> of
> peak, it isn't.
> I also notice another bit of disinformation in another article about
> in-flight icing, repeating "old wives tales" about the temperature
> range for
> icing, we have known better for the last 40 or so years.
> Cheers,
> Bill Hamilton
>
>
>
> > Bichier, Peter <Peter.Bichier@utoledo.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Commanders,
> >
> > Dianne White (Twin & Turbine editor) kindly shared the article with
> me:
> >
> > Follow this link to the e-edition!
> >
> > http://digital.turn-page.com/issue/20532
> >
> > Merry Christmas & Happy New Year!
> >
> > Peter Bichier
> > Lake Erie Center (Univeristy of Toledo)
> > Department of Environmental Sciences
> > (419) 530-8384
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Barry
> > Collman
> > Sent: Mon 12/27/2010 10:22 AM
> > To: commander-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RE: Commander-List: Twin & Turbine Article
> >
> > Hello Randy,
> >
> > I haven't seen the article but I guess Chris Haag, a good friend of
> mine
> > who
> > owned the Shrike and is helping with the book, got that published.
> >
> > I'm hoping he'll forward a copy of the article, as one is supposed to
> be
> > sent to him by the publishers.
> >
> > Hope you all had an enjoyable Christmas and send very best wishes for
>
> > 2011.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Barry
> >
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