---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/01/11: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:54 AM - Re: Single engine procedures. (Cate Chagnot) 2. 07:23 AM - Re: Re: Single engine procedures. (BobsV35B@aol.com) 3. 04:53 PM - Re: Re: Single engine procedures. (Jim Addington) 4. 10:19 PM - Re: Single engine procedures. (BillLeff1@aol.com) 5. 11:02 PM - Official Commander-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 6. 11:03 PM - Official Commander-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:05 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Single engine procedures. From: "Cate Chagnot" Hi Adam, I hope you're getting your multi ticket in something other than your plane since the training is hard on those geared engines. My 680E won't unfeather unless the engine's running. You have to restart using the same procedure you'd use on the ground. It's usually not a big deal once you've gotten the plane set up and stabilized for single engine flight. In a real engine out situation you'll not be thinking about unfeathering it anyway but just flying the plane... Mixture, props, throttle, flaps, gear! Identify, verify, feather. Fly the plane! -------- Cate N4278S 680E Skywagon N180PK Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335752#335752 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:23:41 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Single engine procedures. Good Morning All, If one who's Commander experience is ancient may comment, I would like to mention the one shot feathering method that was on the very first Aero Commando I ever flew. It had a T handle on each side of the cockpit up near the pilots head. Pull on the left one and the left prop feathered. Pull on the one above the copilots head and the right one feathered. It was just a cable, not an Arhends control. no way to unfeather at all. Most of the later props could be unfeathered, but need oil pressure to do so. Consequently you need to get some oil pressure to unfeather the prop. One way to do that is to start the engine in the normal manner. Another way, and the one I like the best, is to equip the airplane with unfeathering oil pressure accumulators. When the engine is running, the oil pump pushes oil into the accumulator via a one way check valve. To unfeather the prop, you actuate a lever (usually the propellor governor control lever on the power quadrant) which releases the stored oil into the prop dome and unfeathers the prop. I am aware of at least two types of accumulators. One is a cylinder that has a piston that floats between the engine oil pressure and a preloaded air charge. Another type accumulator is a two halved sphere which has a rubber diaphragm between the two halves. Air pressure preload is on one side and the oil pressure on the other. Both types work quite well. I particularly like to have accumulators on airplanes used for training. They can be expensive and if you never need them, why carry the weight? Personally, I am willing to carry the extra weight so that I can quickly unfearther if I ever feather the wrong one. Those of you who do not make as many mistakes as I do not need that crutch. Happy Skies, Old Bob AKA Bob Siegfried Way back When, a Commander Pilot In a message dated 4/1/2011 7:54:58 A.M. Central Daylight Time, cchagnot@ultimateair.com writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: "Cate Chagnot" Hi Adam, I hope you're getting your multi ticket in something other than your plane since the training is hard on those geared engines. My 680E won't unfeather unless the engine's running. You have to restart using the same procedure you'd use on the ground. It's usually not a big deal once you've gotten the plane set up and stabilized for single engine flight. In a real engine out situation you'll not be thinking about unfeathering it anyway but just flying the plane... Mixture, props, throttle, flaps, gear! Identify, verify, feather. Fly the plane! -------- Cate N4278S 680E Skywagon N180PK Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335752#335752 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:37 PM PST US From: "Jim Addington" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Single engine procedures. The biggest thing is RUDDER, RUDDER, RUDDER, aileron will kill you in a heart beat. Jim Addington -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cate Chagnot Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 7:51 AM Subject: Commander-List: Re: Single engine procedures. Hi Adam, I hope you're getting your multi ticket in something other than your plane since the training is hard on those geared engines. My 680E won't unfeather unless the engine's running. You have to restart using the same procedure you'd use on the ground. It's usually not a big deal once you've gotten the plane set up and stabilized for single engine flight. In a real engine out situation you'll not be thinking about unfeathering it anyway but just flying the plane... Mixture, props, throttle, flaps, gear! Identify, verify, feather. Fly the plane! -------- Cate N4278S 680E Skywagon N180PK Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335752#335752 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:19:58 PM PST US From: BillLeff1@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Single engine procedures. Adam, I have been instructing in Commanders of all models for 40 years and it is currently one of the things that I still do for a living. This includes 520s. There are several things you need to know. First of all the engines on your 520 (the GO-435) is not any more fragile than any other engine except for one thing. That is detuning of the counterweights. This is caused by letting the prop drive the engine when you are operating at low MP settings or make rapid throttle movements. _http://www.sacskyranch.com/detune.htm_ (http://www.sacskyranch.com/detune.htm) . These engines were used by many of the older air show (aerobatic pilots). Pilots such as the famous Art Scholl and _http://www.check-six.com/lib/Famous_Missing/Scholl.htm_ (http://www.check-six.com/lib/Famous_Missing/Scholl.htm) , Ed Mahler _http://www.eaa.org/apps/obituaries/MemorialWall2.aspx?ID=974_ (http://www.eaa.org/apps/obituaries/MemorialWall2.aspx?ID=974) and many others used these engines in their aerobatic aircraft for years. However proper operating procedures are essential. When simulating an engine failure or just doing an in flight shut down never retard the throttle to simulate the engine failure. CUT THE ENGINE BY MOVING THE MIXTURE TO THE CUT OFF POSITION. Do not retard the throttle to identify the engine. This my cause excessive loads on the connecting rods and detune the counterweights. _http://books.google.com/books?id=JEXnFqVTqJQC&pg=PA426&lpg=PA426&dq=lycoming+detuning&source=bl&ots=dQx8OYga4I&sig=NcRGTgKhhXnNCupxRvF67X2_nC4&hl=en&e i=FqGWTfqpKdCatwe0nrSBDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&sqi=2&ved=0 CE8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=lycoming%20detuning&f=false_ (http://books.google.com/books?id=JEXnFqVTqJQC&pg=PA426&lpg=PA426&dq=lycoming+detuning&source=bl&ots =dQx8OYga4I&sig=NcRGTgKhhXnNCupxRvF67X2_nC4&hl=en&ei=FqGWTfqpKdCatwe0nrSBDA& sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&sqi=2&ved=0CE8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=ly coming%20detuning&f=false) . Remember Dead foot Dead engine! Typically cylinder head temps are not an issue on the 520. However, do not cut engine to simulate an engine failure if the head temp is over 190 deg C. Rapid cooling may cause cracking of the cylinder heads. This is especially true in the GO-435. As far as flying the aircraft, maintaining directional control is paramount. Proper use of the rudder and ailerons is important. The best performance is with the aircraft banked 2-5 deg into the operating engine. This is what is called "zero slip angle". This requires proper coordination of both the rudder and ailerons. Turning into the dead engine is not a problem in any Commander but may slightly reduce performance. In the event the prop will not feather, MAINTAIN DIRECTIONAL CONTROL AND FLYING SPEED AT ALL COST. If necessary retard the operating engines throttle to maintain directional control and ( as my friend Bob Hoover says) fly the plane as far into the accident as possible. It is better to crash under control at a little higher speed than to stall and/or loose control. In fact the 520 will fly on one engine and maintain directional control with only aileron input but that is not the way it should be done. I found out that one the hard way one day doing single engine training with the rudder lock in place. That was a really stupid mistake but it did sell me on Commanders. My last advice is do not get your rating in your 520 if you do not have one. Use someone else's airplane. Then do the necessary training in your Commander to become proficient. Plan each take off assuming an engine is going to fail. Review what you are going to do and how you will do it. Have a plan on where you will go if you do have an engine failure during that take off. Last remember, these engines are 50+ years old. Treat them with respect and they will take care of you. Have fun flying your Commander! Bill Leff 560F N222WL and N303H The Commander is by far the best handling twin engine aircraft ever built. You need to look no further than Bob Hoover to see that. In a message dated 3/31/2011 6:34:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, adam@adamfrisch.com writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: "stratobee" Can someone walk me through the single engine procedures on the 520/560/680 with the geared engines? I seem to remember hearing that once feathered, they could not be unfeathered and subsequently not started. Is this correct? I want to get up to scratch theoretically on the 520's procedures so I don't screw up when and if the time comes. -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=335685#335685 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:02:37 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Commander-List: Official Commander-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Commander-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. 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Commander-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Commander-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. 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Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:52 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Commander-List: Official Commander-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Commander-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Commander-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Commander-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Commander-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Commander-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Commander-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Commander-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Commander-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.