---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/13/11: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:17 AM - Replacing seats.. (stratobee) 2. 08:10 AM - Re: Replacing seats.. (Moe Mills) 3. 04:17 PM - Re: Replacing seats.. (Chris) 4. 04:37 PM - Re: Replacing seats.. (stratobee) 5. 04:53 PM - Re: Replacing seats.. (Tylor Hall) 6. 05:36 PM - Re: Replacing seats.. (stratobee) 7. 07:13 PM - Re: Re: Replacing seats.. (yourtcfg@aol.com) 8. 07:16 PM - Re: Re: Replacing seats.. (Russell Legg) 9. 07:33 PM - Re: Re: Replacing seats.. (Brock Lorber) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:03 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Replacing seats.. From: "stratobee" Hi. One of my goals in the future is to lighten my aircraft and clean her up significantly. One of the things I want to do is to replace the seats for something better and lighter. The low backrest and the 50's midriff seat belt I would like to replace for a harness and something more snug and safe. So I was looking at these super light, ultra strong car racing seats. What are the legalities of bolting those onto the sliding frame of the seats in there now? Is this a modification I could do, or do seats have to be certified and all the rigmarole involved with that? 337? -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339742#339742 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:49 AM PST US From: Moe Mills Subject: RE: Commander-List: Replacing seats.. Adam=2C Looked around myself several years ago at the seat situation=2C and other t han new upholstry (from a legal standpoint) you are pretty much stuck with what you have=2C unless of course you want to go "Experimental" and then i nsurance is about impossible. Moe Mills N680RR 680F(p) > Subject: Commander-List: Replacing seats.. > From: adam@adamfrisch.com > Date: Fri=2C 13 May 2011 06:14:41 -0700 > To: commander-list@matronics.com > > > Hi. > > One of my goals in the future is to lighten my aircraft and clean her up significantly. > > One of the things I want to do is to replace the seats for something bett er and lighter. The low backrest and the 50's midriff seat belt I would lik e to replace for a harness and something more snug and safe. So I was looki ng at these super light=2C ultra strong car racing seats. What are the lega lities of bolting those onto the sliding frame of the seats in there now? > > Is this a modification I could do=2C or do seats have to be certified and all the rigmarole involved with that? 337? > > -------- > Adam > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339742#339742 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:17:35 PM PST US From: Chris Subject: Re: Commander-List: Replacing seats.. Moe Mills wrote: > > Looked around myself several years ago at the seat situation, and > other than new upholstry (from a legal standpoint) you are pretty > much stuck with what you have, unless of course you want to go > "Experimental" and then insurance is about impossible. Sorry, but you can't just "go experimental" on a certified aircraft. You can re license as "experimental R&D" or "experimental exhibition", but either effectively renders the aircraft useless for general operation. Both categories come with extreme operational limitations. Totally different thing than "experimental, amateur built" where you can do pretty much anything you want. chris ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:37:58 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Replacing seats.. From: "stratobee" How about getting a one-off STC? It's nuts that they would prohibit something that's much safer than the old seats that are in there now. -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339806#339806 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:58 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Replacing seats.. From: Tylor Hall Adam, Commander-aero.com has the cross the shoulder seat belts as a field approval. I have seen dual over shoulder seat belts in some aircraft like the 500B that are used by the forest service. That too may be a field approval and can be done. Recovering the seats with the new foam goes a long way to contort. Tylor Hall On May 13, 2011, at 5:15 PM, Chris wrote: > > Moe Mills wrote: >> >> Looked around myself several years ago at the seat situation, and other than new upholstry (from a legal standpoint) you are pretty much stuck with what you have, unless of course you want to go "Experimental" and then insurance is about impossible. > > Sorry, but you can't just "go experimental" on a certified aircraft. You can re license as "experimental R&D" or "experimental exhibition", but either effectively renders the aircraft useless for general operation. Both categories come with extreme operational limitations. Totally different thing than "experimental, amateur built" where you can do pretty much anything you want. > > chris > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:14 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Replacing seats.. From: "stratobee" Actually, it seems like the FAA have agreed that shoulder harnesses are a safety benefit and can be allowed as minor modification on aircrafts made before 1978. http://www.121five.com/admin/FeatureArticles/Owner%20Performed%20Aircraft%20Maintenance.pdf It states that as long as no alteration to the structure is done (drilling, welding) then it's OK. In my case the belts attach to the bottom seat structure itself and are not in any way attached to the airframe, so adding a harness using the same attachment points should be possible. That just leaves the seat. -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339810#339810 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:17 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Replacing seats.. From: yourtcfg@aol.com HI ADAM.Welome to the wonderful world of the FAA, where their motto "We're not happy, until your not happy" prevails. You will soon find out that the FAA is nothing about safety, they are all about control!! jb -----Original Message----- From: stratobee Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 5:33 pm Subject: Commander-List: Re: Replacing seats.. Actually, it seems like the FAA have agreed that shoulder harnesses are a safety enefit and can be allowed as minor modification on aircrafts made before 1978. http://www.121five.com/admin/FeatureArticles/Owner%20Performed%20Aircraft% 20Maintenance.pdf It states that as long as no alteration to the structure is done (drilling , elding) then it's OK. In my case the belts attach to the bottom seat struc ture tself and are not in any way attached to the airframe, so adding a harness sing the same attachment points should be possible. That just leaves the seat. -------- dam ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339810#339810 ======================== =========== -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== ======================== =========== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:57 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Replacing seats.. From: Russell Legg Hi Adam, Buddy Windham (lurking on this list), had some really nice mods carried out on the pilot seats in his 560E...higher backs etc etc. He may be able to recall what processes he went through to get those certified (I think through Commander Aero at Dayton). Captain Windham...? Cheers Russell On 14/05/2011, at 9:05 AM, stratobee wrote: > > How about getting a one-off STC? It's nuts that they would prohibit something that's much safer than the old seats that are in there now. > > -------- > Adam > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339806#339806 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:37 PM PST US From: Brock Lorber Subject: Re: Commander-List: Re: Replacing seats.. We got a field approval for 400CH (or whatever the new n-number is) for 4-point harnesses on the front two seats. They consisted of a lap-belt and a centrifugal lock on the shoulder belts that hid in the pocket on the seat back. Very comfortable, useable, and clean. Unfortunately, I don't have the manufacturer or any of the paperwork anymore. AFA the FAA rules preventing safety...shocking, isn't it? Brock stratobee wrote: > > Actually, it seems like the FAA have agreed that shoulder harnesses are a safety benefit and can be allowed as minor modification on aircrafts made before 1978. > > http://www.121five.com/admin/FeatureArticles/Owner%20Performed%20Aircraft%20Maintenance.pdf > > It states that as long as no alteration to the structure is done (drilling, welding) then it's OK. In my case the belts attach to the bottom seat structure itself and are not in any way attached to the airframe, so adding a harness using the same attachment points should be possible. > > That just leaves the seat. > > -------- > Adam > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=339810#339810 > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.