---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 07/01/11: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:04 AM - Re: Considering a 500S.... (Keith S. Gordon) 2. 07:17 AM - Re: Considering a 500S.... (Cate Chagnot) 3. 09:50 AM - Re: Considering a 500S.... (Andrew & Bridget Watson) 4. 10:06 AM - Re: Considering a 500S.... (stratobee) 5. 10:43 AM - Re: Considering a 500S.... (Jmgfallstrom) 6. 10:48 AM - Re: Re: Considering a 500S.... (Moe Mills) 7. 12:51 PM - Re: Considering a 500S.... (stratobee) 8. 11:02 PM - Official Commander-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 9. 11:04 PM - Official Commander-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Considering a 500S.... From: "Keith S. Gordon" Since the spiritual and erotic aspect of Commander ownership is being cove red so well, I'm going to take a different approach. You're obviously comparing the Commander to its competition. When doing so, ask the following questions: Which design has the best one engine inoperative handling? Which design allows access to ALL the fuel in an O.E.I. scenario? Which design's emergency gear extension procedure is the same as normal ge ar extension? Which design would you want to shoot an ILS in while doing an emergency ge ar extension? Which design has its C.G. move FORWARD (the safer C.G. shift) with fuel bu rn ? Oh - and don't be bamboozled by rate of climb with one engine inoperative. Note that they all have about the same O.E.I. climb gradient when you lo ok at R.O.C. at their respective Vyse. The only thing that is going to help any piston airplane with high and hot take-off performance is turbo normalization, boosting, or super charging. Nico's philosophy on high/hot departures is spot on. I will not speak to the cost of operation; it's nothing a sane man would do. They're all bloody expensive and all of the piston twins are looking at "aging aircraft" issues that level the playing field so go for handli ng qualities in normal and abnormal flight regimes. I've tossed some questions at you so you can, in turn, flip them on the sa lesmen trying to sell you other products. See what answers you get. I was an AeroStar demo pilot for a number of years (B.C. -- Before Command er) and I demo'd against Beech, Piper and Cessna products. I always won. It was after that stint that I worked backwards along the Ted Smith time line and came to understand his design philosophy through the Aero Comman der line. It's utterly unique in the world of production aircraft. Keith S. Gordon aka Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. FAASTeam Lead Rep, Las Vegas NBAA Access Committee Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: cybersuperstore Sent: Thu, Jun 30, 2011 10:46 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Considering a 500S.... ore.com> I operated my straight 500 out of Wonderboom in South Africa (FAWB) which is at 4100' ASL on a regular basis. I also owned a Twin Comanche on which I had an engine failure on takeoff which turned out to be a non-event, having flown a circuit and returned for landing. I never had an engine failure on the 500 , but I did check it's single engine capability at 7,000' during some single eng ine workouts and it held altitude with about 100 gals and two people on board. If loaded to the max at high-altitude airports, I'd fly it like a single with a bit of additional options using the live motor to extend my glide a little bit if needed, but otherwise you should be fine provided you stay current and fluent on the emergency procedures. You must be like a maestro and let your hands dance over the controls when there is no time to recite poetry, if you know what I mean. My dream ship has always been a Shrike and one day I'll be able to afford one provided it has turbo normalization. I flew a 680FP for a couple of hours and enjoyed it tremendously, however, it always felt like I married the wrong women longing for the Shrike, in spite of the 680's wild performance with the ge ared motors. I always imagine a Shrike with 350's and turbo's (Merlin?) and her shaking with raw power in a climb. My straight 500 had a vibration in the climb that ma de me believe that it's raw power that exudes through her body, but I knew it wa s something out of balance and if I imagined an additional 1,000 feet per mi nute to her climb like a not-so-homesick-angel she was. Oh, well. It was a glorious time, especially climbing out of a stratus lay er of fog into a very early morning climbout, seeing a sunrise that no other earth-bound soul could see. It made me feel special and it was as if I cou ld hear ZS-CLZ grown with pleasure knowing that her utmost effort gave me emm ense pleasure. She enjoyed it, too. Sigh. Nico -----Original Message----- From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ratherbflying Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 3:50 PM Subject: Commander-List: Considering a 500S.... --> I am considering a mid 70=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s 500S as my next aircraf t. It will be used purely for personal/family use=C3=A2=82=AC=C2no write offs. My =C3=A2 =82=AC=C5=93mission=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D is 1) Play (I enjoy flying!), and 2) regular trips of 229, 322, and 83nm. Field lengths are 5500 to 11,000ft and elevations from SL to 4415msl. I have several questions for the group: Conklin and de Decker states $521 per hour variable costs (does not includ e fixed costs) based upon 131 hours per year. Note: the fuel states $275.4 0 per hour which equals 45gph? What do you use for block fuel consumption if the 45 is not correct? Related to the aforementioned question, can anyone shed ligh t on what you experience for variable operating costs for a well maintained Shr ike in excellent condition? What is the market =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93energy=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D for a piston Twin Commander and specifically for a Shrike? I ask, since at some point down the road, it will be resold. Is it a =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93cult=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D airplane with limited prosp ects for buyers? For a currently well maintained Shrike with no deferred maintenance, how reliable are the systems, i.e. hydraulics, the 290HP Lyc=C3=A2=82=AC =84=A2s or other? Can anyone share the experience of owning a 500 series vs. other light twi ns such as Baron or Seneca or other? Any issue with parts availability=C3=A2=82=AC=C2what happens if you encounter hangar rash on a tail, etc=C3=A2=82=AC=C2? A difficult question, but is there any way to compare the safety of the Sh rike or 500X with other light twins? Realizing that 80% of the time, =C3=A2 =82=AC=C5=93stupid pilot tricks=C3=A2=82=AC=C2=9D are usually the reason for accidents, is the Shrike or 500 better or worse than other light twins, i.e. say an engine failure on TO or are ther e any other areas where the plane will bite or where it is better than other lig ht twins? Any issues with flying out of higher elevation airports (mentioned above). My typical payload is 500 lbs of people and stuff. Any other thoughts...what you like most about the 500's? I realize I have asked a lot of questions, but answers to any or all quest ions is appreciated=C3=A2=82=AC=C2and thank you in advance! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344534#344534 ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ======================== =========== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:56 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Considering a 500S.... From: "Cate Chagnot" Are you beginning to see a pattern here? Owning an Aero Commander is definitely a cult...... ALL HAIL TED SMITH! :-) -------- Cate N4278S 680E Skywagon N180PK Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344573#344573 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:11 AM PST US From: "Andrew & Bridget Watson" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Considering a 500S.... I have not flown a Shrike let alone owned one, but offer this: what other business-class piston twin would you see this sort of both-engines-out performance in the hands of a master pilot? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZBcapxGHjE&feature=related There may be others, but I haven't seen any other pilot perform this sort of routine, and I haven't seen Bob Hoover perform his routine in any other business-class piston twin. You're right JG, there is no comparison, although I offer my opinion that comparing the Twin Commander to the Dak is a little unfair--to both aircraft. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jmgfallstrom To: commander-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 7:38 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Considering a 500S.... Dear RBF, As to any well maintained post 1958 500 piston Commander- For safety and forgiveness - for beauty and view - for cost and value in reference to the 4 former attributes mentioned herein - these aircraft should be selling for twice what the current market offers them up for - they are a religious experience to fly - and a blessing to land In re any comparable twin aircraft - with the exception of the Douglas DC-3 - none exist - jg -----Original Message----- From: ratherbflying To: commander-list Sent: Thu, Jun 30, 2011 6:53 pm Subject: Commander-List: Considering a 500S.... I am considering a mid 70=C3=A2=C2=C2=99s 500S as my next aircraft. It will be used purely for personal/family use=C3=A2=C2=C2no write offs. My =C3=A2=C2=C2=9Cmission=C3=A2=C2=C2=9D is 1) Play (I enjoy flying!), and 2) regular trips of 229, 322, and 83nm. Field lengths are 5500 to 11,000ft and elevations from SL to 4415msl. I have several questions for the group: Conklin and de Decker states $521 per hour variable costs (does not include fixed costs) based upon 131 hours per year. Note: the fuel states $275.40 per hour which equals 45gph? What do you use for block fuel consumption if the 45 is not correct? Related to the aforementioned question, can anyone shed light on what you experience for variable operating costs for a well maintained Shrike in excellent condition? What is the market =C3=A2=C2=C2=9Cenergy=C3=A2=C2=C2=9D for a piston Twin Commander and specifically for a Shrike? I ask, since at some point down the road, it will be resold. Is it a =C3=A2=C2=C2=9Ccult=C3=A2=C2=C2=9D airplane with limited prospects for buyers? For a currently well maintained Shrike with no deferred maintenance, how reliable are the systems, i.e. hydraulics, the 290HP Lyc=C3=A2=C2=C2=99s or other? Can anyone share the experience of owning a 500 series vs. other light twins such as Baron or Seneca or other? Any issue with parts availability=C3=A2=C2=C2what happens if you encounter hangar rash on a tail, etc=C3=A2=C2=C2? A difficult question, but is there any way to compare the safety of the Shrike or 500X with other light twins? Realizing that 80% of the time, =C3=A2=C2=C2=9Cstupid pilot tricks=C3=A2=C2=C2=9D are usually the reason for accidents, is the Shrike or 500 better or worse than other light twins, i.e. say an engine failure on TO or are there any other areas where the plane will bite or where it is better than other light twins? Any issues with flying out of higher elevation airports (mentioned above). My typical payload is 500 lbs of people and stuff. Any other thoughts...what you like most about the 500's? I realize I have asked a lot of questions, but answers to any or all questions is appreciated=C3=A2=C2=C2and thank you in advance! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344534#344534 " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List p://forums.matronics.com blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:28 AM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Considering a 500S.... From: "stratobee" I'm a brand new owner so have no advice to give, except maybe a general approach or philosophy to aircraft ownership: I only count the fuel and the oil as hourly costs. The rest aren't really a function of flying hours and are hard to quantify. The annual will cost pretty much the same if it's been sitting on the ramp for a year or if it's flown (give or take). Same with the insurance. As for the engine and or systems overhaul, I count them as costs that come with aircraft ownership - it's the price I pay to have a hobby. This way of thinking tricks me into thinking this is a rather affordable little endeavour (when we all know it's utter madness). At about $150/hr in fuel and oil doesn't sound so bad and all of a sudden that little trip to get a hamburger sounds quite affordable. If reality is to hard to bear, then be unrealistic! :D -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344596#344596 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:43:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Considering a 500S.... From: Jmgfallstrom My Dear Watson - During JFK's presidency he once hosted a dinner of the world's most accompl ished academics, scholars, Nobel winners, intelligentsia, scientists and ph ilosophers etc, etc - I do not remember now which formal dining room in the White house they were holding the dinner. After their meal which lasted several hours , and most interesting discours e one would presume, there was a moment of natural silence as they sipped t heir after dinner libations and smoked no doubt Cuban cigars - that JFK too k that moment of silence to observe to all of the guests attention the foll owing; I may be paraphrasing (but not by much) - JFK looked around the room as sai d " . . . I do not suppose that in the history of the the White House in g eneral and to this dining room specifically, has there ever been so much ra w intelligence, cerebral horsepower and genius in aggregate.' He then paused a moment, the room remained silent as they pondered his obse rvation. JFK then added: ". . . with perhaps the one exception as to when Thomas Jefferson dined ALONE." It was with this same spirit that I made the comparative statement with the Dakota and the Aero Commander 500 et al. All my best, JG -----Original Message----- From: Andrew & Bridget Watson Sent: Fri, Jul 1, 2011 12:50 pm Subject: Re: Commander-List: Considering a 500S.... I have not flown a Shrike let alone owned one, but offer this: what other b usiness-class piston twin would you see this sort of both-engines-out perfo rmance in the hands of a master pilot? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZB capxGHjE&feature=related There may be others, but I haven't seen any other pilot perform this sort o f routine, and I haven't seen Bob Hoover perform his routine in any other b usiness-class piston twin. You're right JG, there is no comparison, although I offer my opinion that c omparing the Twin Commander to the Dak is a little unfair--to both aircraft .. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jmgfallstrom Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2011 7:38 PM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Considering a 500S.... Dear RBF, As to any well maintained post 1958 500 piston Commander- For safety and fo rgiveness - for beauty and view - for cost and value in reference to the 4 former attributes mentioned herein - these aircraft should be selling for t wice what the current market offers them up for - they are a religious expe rience to fly - and a blessing to land In re any comparable twin aircraft - with the exception of the Douglas DC-3 - none exist - jg -----Original Message----- From: ratherbflying Sent: Thu, Jun 30, 2011 6:53 pm Subject: Commander-List: Considering a 500S.... om> I am considering a mid 70=C3=A2=C2=C2=99s 500S as my next aircraft. It will be used purely or personal/family use=C3=A2=C2=C2no write offs. My =C3=A2=C2=C2 =9Cmission=C3=A2=C2=C2=9D is 1) Play (I enjoy lying!), and 2) regular trips of 229, 322, and 83nm. Field lengths are 550 0 to 1,000ft and elevations from SL to 4415msl. I have several questions for the group: Conklin and de Decker states $521 per hour variable costs (does not include ixed costs) based upon 131 hours per year. Note: the fuel states $275.40 per our which equals 45gph? What do you use for block fuel consumption if the 4 5 is ot correct? Related to the aforementioned question, can anyone shed light on hat you experience for variable operating costs for a well maintained Shrik e in xcellent condition? What is the market =C3=A2=C2=C2=9Cenergy=C3=A2=C2=C2=9D for a piston Twin Commander and specifically for Shrike? I ask, since at some point down the road, it will be resold. Is it a =C2=C2=9Ccult=C3=A2=C2=C2=9D airplane with limited prospects for buye rs? For a currently well maintained Shrike with no deferred maintenance, how eliable are the systems, i.e. hydraulics, the 290HP Lyc=C3=A2=C2=C2=99s or other? Can anyone share the experience of owning a 500 series vs. other light twin s uch as Baron or Seneca or other? Any issue with parts availability=C3=A2=C2=C2what happens if you enco unter hangar rash on tail, etc=C3=A2=C2=C2? A difficult question, but is there any way to compare the safety of the Shr ike r 500X with other light twins? Realizing that 80% of the time, =C3=A2=C2 =C2=9Cstupid pilot ricks=C3=A2=C2=C2=9D are usually the reason for accidents, is the Shrike or 500 better or orse than other light twins, i.e. say an engine failure on TO or are there any ther areas where the plane will bite or where it is better than other light wins? Any issues with flying out of higher elevation airports (mentioned above). My ypical payload is 500 lbs of people and stuff. Any other thoughts...what you like most about the 500's? I realize I have asked a lot of questions, but answers to any or all questi ons s appreciated=C3=A2=C2=C2and thank you in advance! ead this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344534#344534 " target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ://forums.matronics.com lank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c -= - The Commander-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as List Un/Subscription, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: - -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List - -======================== -= - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content also available via the Web Forums! - -= --> http://forums.matronics.com - -======================== -= - List Contribution Web Site - -= Thank you for your generous support! -= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. -= --> http://www.matronics.com/contribution -======================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:48:17 AM PST US From: Moe Mills Subject: RE: Commander-List: Re: Considering a 500S.... Adam=2C What is your fuel burn pe hour? How much are you paying for 100LL? Althou gh 100LL.com shows the average cost at $ 6.02 here in the southwest=2C I se em to pay closer to $ 5.50 at the places where I fly to. $ 150.00 pe r hour for fuel and oil seems real low. I realize that a 680Fp is the fuel hog of the piston commanders=2C however=2C my fuel costs are between $ 300 .00 and $ 375.00 per hour=2C depending on where I fill up at and operating coditions. Also=2C shouldn't set asides fro engine TBO=2C prop TBO=2C heat er TBO=2C wing spar inspections and other items with a set life be included as hourly costs? The more we fly=2C the sooner these big ticket costs pop up=2C however the fixed costs items such as insurance and hanger rent get less expensive per hour. Moe Mills N680RR 680Fp > Subject: Commander-List: Re: Considering a 500S.... > From: adam@adamfrisch.com > Date: Fri=2C 1 Jul 2011 10:04:05 -0700 > To: commander-list@matronics.com > > > I'm a brand new owner so have no advice to give=2C except maybe a general approach or philosophy to aircraft ownership: > > I only count the fuel and the oil as hourly costs. The rest aren't really a function of flying hours and are hard to quantify. The annual will cost pretty much the same if it's been sitting on the ramp for a year or if it's flown (give or take). Same with the insurance. As for the engine and or sy stems overhaul=2C I count them as costs that come with aircraft ownership - it's the price I pay to have a hobby. This way of thinking tricks me into thinking this is a rather affordable little endeavour (when we all know it' s utter madness). At about $150/hr in fuel and oil doesn't sound so bad and all of a sudden that little trip to get a hamburger sounds quite affordabl e. > > If reality is to hard to bear=2C then be unrealistic! :D > > -------- > Adam > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344596#344596 > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:54 PM PST US Subject: Commander-List: Re: Considering a 500S.... From: "stratobee" Moe, I've just finished a 17hr tour of the north west - my first real flying on my own - so have some fresh numbers. My fuel burn was around 29gph when I stayed low, but can be forced down to 23-25gph up high. It's a little tricky to gage as the tanks transfer fuel and most FBO guys don't have the time to spend 15 minutes refuelling them. It's easier when you can do it yourself, but even I sometimes had to give up on those last gallons. The above numbers are at 20-22" and 2500-2600 rpm, so pretty throttled back. She showed around 135-140kts here, so not bad considering. I know Bonanzas that burn that much! The posh FBO's always charge an arm and a leg, but I found Avgas for around $5.20/gal on this trip and according to my little Foreflight software, there were out-of-the-way strips with prices as low as $4.70. I'll try to hit those next time. Also, as a friend once put it - any airplane will be cheaper than a coke habit! :D -------- Adam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=344618#344618 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:02:45 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Commander-List: Official Commander-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Commander-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. 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This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "commander-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Commander-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Commander-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/commander-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Commander-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Commander-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Commander-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Commander-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Commander-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Commander-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Commander-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Commander-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Commander-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Commander-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Commander-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Commander ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Commander-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Commander-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Commander-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Commander-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Commander-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:04:30 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Commander-List: Official Commander-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Commander-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Commander-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Commander-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Commander-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Commander-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Commander-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Commander-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Commander-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.