---------------------------------------------------------- Commander-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/05/15: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:05 AM - Re: Hello World (William J Hamilton) 2. 07:24 AM - Re: Hello World (Glenn Hancock) 3. 10:55 AM - Commander-List Hello World (BobsV35B@aol.com) 4. 11:30 AM - Re: Commander-List Hello World (Chris) 5. 11:43 AM - Re: Hello World (K.S.Gordon) 6. 03:36 PM - Re: Commander-List Hello World (BobsV35B@aol.com) 7. 03:38 PM - Re: Hello World (Richard) 8. 03:40 PM - Re: Commander-List Hello World (BobsV35B@aol.com) 9. 03:48 PM - Re: Hello World (Keith S. Gordon) 10. 04:10 PM - AC680F Info (Keith S. Gordon) 11. 05:10 PM - Re: Commander-List Hello World (Chris) 12. 05:12 PM - Re: AC680F Info (Michael Orth) 13. 06:00 PM - Re: Commander-List Hello World (BobsV35B@aol.com) 14. 06:45 PM - Re: AC680F Info (Glenn Hancock) 15. 07:55 PM - Re: Hello World (William J Hamilton) 16. 08:06 PM - Re: Hello World (William J Hamilton) 17. 08:07 PM - Re: Hello World (Keith S. Gordon) 18. 09:14 PM - Re: AC680F Info (William Boelte) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:55 AM PST US From: "William J Hamilton" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but look up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web site, or give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team who run engine operation training, and they have plenty of solid documentation. Or just Google John Deakin. You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine monitor, this is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already fitted. With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far running LOP. =9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM characteristics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane auto lean, 130 octane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that corresponds to that specification,(also known as Normal and Rich if the engine is Wright). Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and Lycoming for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT the reason this seat material is used. You would have to have some very very old cylinders for it to be a problem. None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you will not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell is 86 octane. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders. I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right stuff. A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip sticks built in. You'll find the GALLON markings there. You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out. I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal. The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe. No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the time, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was available. You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if they're still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds fuel control support for your engines. Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that was when there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the 100/130 avgas of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication, so run ROP. More, later, but I have to run. K.S.Gordon Sent on the Fly =F0=9F=8C=90 -------- Original message -------- From: Glenn Hancock Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin Commander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking. Since you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine problems, are there any replacements available for the 680F(p) that would allow getting away from the geared engines or possibly going to Turbine? Hoping I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these rebuilt and just making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I can't put an engine on. Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T? Thanks, Glenn On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA wrote: Hi Glenn I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See responses below. Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB 680F / N6253X logoRED-126x38@72dpi Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World So a few question: 1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests? I was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say that. For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have had no problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems. 2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same basic stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I do the following: Check static port port side, check hinges of elevators, look at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main tank sump (access door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake lines & pads, pull/adjust bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables, etc, check flap hinges & aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank sump, check bungee, open outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the same on the port side. Be sure to check pressure in the gear blow down gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi. 3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says nothing about this. 4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine? I run the engines ROP, just to be safe. 5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curious of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on this. I start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2 inches at a time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach at 100 knots, with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull back to idle until touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props. 6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown? There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are stretched when the mixture levers are in the idle position, and eventually become fatigued. 7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks? How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn't give any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main tank, with fuel port on top of wing between starboard engine and fuselage. Fill last few gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks. Two outboard tanks outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately. I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a better source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start flying them? Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30 inches, 2600rpm, 190 knots true. Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere else so figured I'd try.. :-) Have a good weekend. Glenn On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico. Glenn On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there. hopefully will figure it out. Glenn On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote: Welcome Glenn. I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly before his passing. Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas ! Cheers, Richard From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last month from twin cessna convention. Glenn On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote: Glenn If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs. Bob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills. If I can help in any way, let me know. It is a very special plane. Call me. Tylor Hall tylorhall@mac.com First Fueling Systems, Inc. 401 Monte Alto PL NE Albuquerque, NM 87123 505-400-8373 Cell 505-247-3001 www.firstfueling.com On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining your ranks soon. Glenn Hancock http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:47 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World From: Glenn Hancock Bill, Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're talking about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it was different. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane but the fact that the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you can't run auto gas in high output engines is that fact alone. I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer is not No right off the bat.. :-) Glenn On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton < wjrhamilton@optusnet.com.au> wrote: > Glenn, > > Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but > look up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web sit e, or give > the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team who run engine > operation training, and they have plenty of solid documentation. > > Or just Google John Deakin. > > You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine monitor, > this is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already fitted. > > > With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is > still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far > running LOP. > > > =9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM characteri stics for 100LL > are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane auto lean, 130 octane auto ri ch > (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that corresponds to that specification,(also > known as Normal and Rich if the engine is Wright). > > Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and > Lycoming for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT t he > reason this seat material is used. You would have to have some very very > old cylinders for it to be a problem. > > > None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you > will not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell i s > 86 octane. > > > Cheers, > > Bill Hamilton > > > *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *K.S.Gordon > *Sent:* Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM > *To:* commander-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World > > > Glenn, > > > Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders. > > > I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right > stuff. > > > A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip sticks > built in. You'll find the GALLON markings there. > > > You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out. > I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal. > > > The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe. > > > No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the > time, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was > available. > > > You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if > they're still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds fuel > control support for your engines. > > > Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that was > when there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the 100/130 avg as > of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication, so run ROP. > > > More, later, but I have to run. > > > K.S.Gordon > > Sent on the Fly =F0=9F=8C=90 > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Glenn Hancock > Date: 04/07/2015 09:56 (GMT-08:00) > To: commander-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World > > Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin > Commander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking. Sin ce > you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine problems, > are there any replacements available for the 680F(p) that would allow > getting away from the geared engines or possibly going to Turbine? Hopin g > I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these rebuilt and just > making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I can't put an engine on .. > > > Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T? > > > Thanks, > > > Glenn > > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA > wrote: > > Hi Glenn > > I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate > my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See respons es > below. > > > Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB > > 680F / N6253X > > > [image: logoRED-126x38@72dpi] > > > *Dettmer Architecture* > > *663 Hill Street* > > *San Luis Obispo, CA 93405* > > *805 541 4864 <805%20541%204864> / fax 805 541 4865 <805%20541%204865>* > > *www.dettmerarchitecture.com * > > > *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Hancock > *Sent:* Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM > *To:* commander-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World > > > So a few question: > > > 1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests? I > was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say that. > For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have had no > problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems. > > > 2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main > things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same bas ic > stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I do the > following: Check static port port side, check hinges of elevators, look > at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main tank sump (access > door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake lines & pads, pull/adju st > bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables, etc, check flap hinges & > aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank sump, check bungee, open > outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for oil, wires, cables, etc, lo ok > into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab magnetos to assure anchorage, > check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the same on the port side. Be sur e > to check pressure in the gear blow down gauge in wheel well. Should be > around 200 psi. > > > 3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine > nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine > but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says > nothing about this. > > > 4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper > process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine? I run > the engines ROP, just to be safe. > > > 5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand > these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curiou s > of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on this. I > start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2 inches at a > time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach at 100 knots, > with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull back to idle un til > touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props. > > > 6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown? > There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are stretched when the > mixture levers are in the idle position, and eventually become fatigued. > > > 7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill > one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks? > How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn' t > give any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main tank, with fue l port > on top of wing between starboard engine and fuselage. Fill last few > gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks. Two outboard tanks > outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately. > > > I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit > of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a bette r > source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start > flying them? > > > Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and > fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30 in ches, > 2600rpm, 190 knots true. > > > Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere els e > so figured I'd try.. :-) > > > Have a good weekend. > > > Glenn > > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: > > Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend > this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out > there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the > flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico. > > > Glenn > > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: > > Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while > replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to > reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there. > > > hopefully will figure it out. > > > Glenn > > > On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote: > > Welcome Glenn. > > > I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly > before his passing. > > Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas ! > > > Cheers, > > Richard > > > *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [ > mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > ] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Hancock > *Sent:* Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM > *To:* commander-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World > > > Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last > month from twin cessna convention. > > > Glenn > > On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote: > > Glenn > > > If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you > could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs. > > > Bob > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [ > mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com > ] *On Behalf Of *Tylor Hall > *Sent:* Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM > *To:* Commander list > *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: Hello World > > > Glenn, > > I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills. > > If I can help in any way, let me know. > > It is a very special plane. > > Call me. > > > Tylor Hall > > tylorhall@mac.com > > First Fueling Systems, Inc. > > 401 Monte Alto PL NE > > Albuquerque, NM 87123 > > 505-400-8373 Cell > > 505-247-3001 > > www.firstfueling.com > > > On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote: > > > > Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow > to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes > awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how > active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining > your ranks soon. > > Glenn Hancock > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List * > > *http://forums.matronics.com * > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution * > > > *" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List * > > *tp://forums.matronics.com * > > *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution * > > > -- > --glenn hancock > > > You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you > down to their level and beat you with experience. > > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List * > > *http://forums.matronics.com * > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution * > > > *" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List * > > *tp://forums.matronics.com * > > *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution * > > > -- > --glenn hancock > > > You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you > down to their level and beat you with experience. > > > -- > > --glenn hancock > > > You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you > down to their level and beat you with experience. > > > -- > > --glenn hancock > > > You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you > down to their level and beat you with experience. > > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List * > > *http://forums.matronics.com * > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution * > > > -- > > --glenn hancock > > > You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you > down to their level and beat you with experience. > > -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:55:56 AM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Commander-List: Commander-List Hello World Good Afternoon Glenn, Glad to hear that you have attended the Advanced Pilots Seminar taught by John, George, and Walter. As you will recall, there is a lot of information fed very rapidly, but the big thing we all need to learn is that all gasoline engines work the same way and they can all be run LOP if set up correctly. Leaner is cooler and cleaner! That is true whether it is a one long lawnmower or an 18 cylinder Wright Turbo Compound R-3350. Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 7/5/2015 12:19:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time, glennh@gmail.com writes: ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:30:47 AM PST US From: Chris Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander-List Hello World Howdy OB! I never have had an opportunity to disagree with you, so I'll at least come up with a humorous counterpoint... For at least one engine, hotter is better! :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OogKurx66vY Chris Schuermann BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Good Afternoon Glenn, > Glad to hear that you have attended the Advanced Pilots Seminar taught > by John, George, and Walter. As you will recall, there is a lot of > information fed very rapidly, but the big thing we all need to learn > is that all gasoline engines work the same way and they can all be run > LOP if set up correctly. > Leaner is cooler and cleaner! > That is true whether it is a one long lawnmower or an 18 cylinder > Wright Turbo Compound R-3350. > Happy Skies, > Old Bob ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:43:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World From: "K.S.Gordon" CiAgICAKR2VudGxlbWVuLApUaGlzIGlzIGEgd2VsbCB3b3JuIHRyYWlsLgpUbyBiZSBjbGVhciwg SSBkbyBhZHZvY2F0ZSBMT1AgZm9yIHRoZSBJR1NPLTU0MCAoYW5kIG90aGVycykgYW5kIHNvbWV3 aGVyZSBoYXZlIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5hbCBMeWNvbWluZyBlbmdpbmUgb3BlcmF0aW5nIGhhbmRib29r IGdyYXBoIHRvIHNob3cgaG93IGFkdmFudGFnZW91cyB0aGUgY3lsaW5kZXIgaGVhZCB0ZW1wZXJh dHVyZSBkcm9wIGlzLgpNeSByZWNvbW1lbmRhdGlvbiBmb3IgUk9QIGNvbWVzIGZyb20gU3VidXJi YW4gQWlybGluZXMgd2hvIHVzZWQgdG8gcnVuIGEgZmxlZXQgb2YgNjgwRkwgaW4gbmlnaHRseSBm 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cnF1ZSwgTk0gODcxMjM1MDUtNDAwLTgzNzMgQ2VsbDUwNS0yNDctMzAwMXd3dy5maXJzdGZ1ZWxp bmcuY29twqDCoMKgwqBPbiBK ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:36:48 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander-List Hello World Ya got me Chris! Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 7/5/2015 1:31:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cschuerm@cox.net writes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OogKurx66vY ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:58 PM PST US From: "Richard" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hello World Greetings Wing Commander Gordon. I agree with all you have said. My personal experiences on this very same aircraft, having spent many hours flying with Moe. Twice we wrecked cylinders. Both the rear ones and unfortunately absolute bastards to change. My personal feelings and watching the experiences of many of my mates. Fuel is cheaper than cylinders. Glenn learn how to operate the engines from someone who owns one. Geared Supercharged are like nothing you have ever experienced. Roll up the throttles slowly. Pull them back even slower. You really have to think about planning your descents. As Keith says NEVER put the props back into fine on approach and landing. Never use the props to slow you down. Never close the throttles. The engines need to be making power ALL the time. Never let the props drive the engines. Flying these things is easy. Except the geared ones. Its all about operating the engines. I have a nerve that runs from my throttle hand to my brain, then through my butt and finally ends in my wallet. It is very easy to blow these things up. People who generally have no idea or experience will tell you all sorts of horror stories. Treat them right and you will have the sweetest, smoothest power you have ever experienced. There is a wealth of knowledge in this group. Use it. Cheers, Richard From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon Sent: Monday, 6 July 2015 4:43 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Gentlemen, This is a well worn trail. To be clear, I do advocate LOP for the IGSO-540 (and others) and somewhere have the original Lycoming engine operating handbook graph to show how advantageous the cylinder head temperature drop is. My recommendation for ROP comes from Suburban Airlines who used to run a fleet of 680FL in nightly freight operations. When I flew a 680FL to Pago Pago to start Inter Island Air, I stole one of Suburban Air's mechanics to be my Director of Maintenance. He related their fleet wide experience of lack of valve guide lubrication that they attributed to lower lead content fuel than what the engine was designed for. Keep in mind this engine was designed in the late 1940s and put in production in the early 1950s. There's the info. Use it as you will. As a personal operator you probably won't put enough hours on the engines to feel the difference, other than fuel cost, between ROP and LOP. The GAMI guys have done a lot to fix some of the bad mythology most if us were raised on. Keep in mind the IGSO-540 has single point fuel injection at the super charger. It is a very unique engine and was only installed on the AeroCommander 680-F series. (A version did go on the BE80 QueenAir; Beech had to meet the market challenge of the 680F series.) I hesitate to teach flying via email, but ... One more tip for you, Glenn, transitioning from your direct drive engines to the IGSO-540: On final approach do not move the props to high RPM. Leave those levers at your cruise setting all -- the way to touch down. If you find you need to go around or miss the approach, you have enough power moving the throttle to low cruise power to start the maneuver, then increase RPM to a climb value, flowed by smooth throttle application to climb power if needed. The name of the game is to keep the gear box loaded from the engine side at all times. That advice will offend everyone who got their multi engine rating in a Duchess last week. K.S.Gordon Sent on the Fly =F0=9F=8C=90 -------- Original message -------- From: Glenn Hancock Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Bill, Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're talking about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it was different. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane but the fact that the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you can't run auto gas in high output engines is that fact alone. I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer is not No right off the bat.. :-) Glenn On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton wrote: Glenn, Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but look up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web site, or give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team who run engine operation training, and they have plenty of solid documentation. Or just Google John Deakin. You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine monitor, this is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already fitted. With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far running LOP. =9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM characteristics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane auto lean, 130 octane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that corresponds to that specification,(also known as Normal and Rich if the engine is Wright). Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and Lycoming for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT the reason this seat material is used. You would have to have some very very old cylinders for it to be a problem. None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you will not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell is 86 octane. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders. I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right stuff. A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip sticks built in. You'll find the GALLON markings there. You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out. I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal. The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe. No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the time, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was available. You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if they're still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds fuel control support for your engines. Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that was when there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the 100/130 avgas of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication, so run ROP. More, later, but I have to run. K.S.Gordon Sent on the Fly =F0=9F=8C=90 -------- Original message -------- From: Glenn Hancock Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin Commander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking. Since you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine problems, are there any replacements available for the 680F(p) that would allow getting away from the geared engines or possibly going to Turbine? Hoping I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these rebuilt and just making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I can't put an engine on. Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T? Thanks, Glenn On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA wrote: Hi Glenn I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See responses below. Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB 680F / N6253X logoRED-126x38@72dpi Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World So a few question: 1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests? I was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say that. For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have had no problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems. 2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same basic stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I do the following: Check static port port side, check hinges of elevators, look at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main tank sump (access door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake lines & pads, pull/adjust bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables, etc, check flap hinges & aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank sump, check bungee, open outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the same on the port side. Be sure to check pressure in the gear blow down gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi. 3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says nothing about this. 4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine? I run the engines ROP, just to be safe. 5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curious of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on this. I start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2 inches at a time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach at 100 knots, with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull back to idle until touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props. 6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown? There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are stretched when the mixture levers are in the idle position, and eventually become fatigued. 7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks? How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn't give any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main tank, with fuel port on top of wing between starboard engine and fuselage. Fill last few gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks. Two outboard tanks outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately. I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a better source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start flying them? Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30 inches, 2600rpm, 190 knots true. Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere else so figured I'd try.. :-) Have a good weekend. Glenn On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico. Glenn On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there. hopefully will figure it out. Glenn On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote: Welcome Glenn. I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly before his passing. Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas ! Cheers, Richard From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last month from twin cessna convention. Glenn On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote: Glenn If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs. Bob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills. If I can help in any way, let me know. It is a very special plane. Call me. Tylor Hall tylorhall@mac.com First Fueling Systems, Inc. 401 Monte Alto PL NE Albuquerque, NM 87123 505-400-8373 Cell 505-247-3001 www.firstfueling.com On J ~, _____ g=D3=93 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:48 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander-List Hello World PS I guess I should have limited my comment as applying to four stroke Otto Cycle engines. Any better that way? Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 7/5/2015 1:31:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cschuerm@cox.net writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris Howdy OB! I never have had an opportunity to disagree with you, so I'll at least come up with a humorous counterpoint... For at least one engine, hotter is better! :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OogKurx66vY Chris Schuermann ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:24 PM PST US From: "Keith S. Gordon" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Greetings Wing Commander Gordon. I agree with all you have said. Thanks, Mate! After the past 17 years exclusively in Falcon Jets, I've lost a lot of the knowledge I had, living in and with Commanders since 1978. Once in a while some of the ideas come back to me, I share it, and then wor ry if I've just broadcast a bunch of dung. Best, "Wing Commander Gordon" Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. KHND RNAV Lead FAASTeam, Las Vegas NBAA Access Committee, Past Chairman Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: Richard Sent: Sun, Jul 5, 2015 3:39 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hello World Greetings Wing Commander Gordon. I agree with all you have said. My personal experiences on this very same aircraft, having spent many hours flying with Moe. Twice we wrecked cylinders. Both the rear ones and unfortunately absolute b astards to change. My personal feelings and watching the experiences of many of my mates. Fuel is cheaper than cylinders. Glenn learn how to operate the engines from someone who owns one. Geared Su percharged are like nothing you have ever experienced. Roll up the throttles slowly. Pull them back even slower. You really have t o think about planning your descents. As Keith says NEVER put the props back into fine on approach and landing. N ever use the props to slow you down. Never close the throttles. The engines need to be making power ALL the time . Never let the props drive the engines. Flying these things is easy. Except the geared ones. Its all about operatin g the engines. I have a nerve that runs from my throttle hand to my brain, then through my butt and finally ends in my wallet. It is very easy to blow these things u p. People who generally have no idea or experience will tell you all sorts of horror stories. Treat them right and you will have the sweetest, smoothest power you have ever experienced. There is a wealth of knowledge in this group. Use it. Cheers, Richard From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon Sent: Monday, 6 July 2015 4:43 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Gentlemen, This is a well worn trail. To be clear, I do advocate LOP for the IGSO-540 (and others) and somewhere have the original Lycoming engine operating handbook graph to show how adva ntageous the cylinder head temperature drop is. My recommendation for ROP comes from Suburban Airlines who used to run a fl eet of 680FL in nightly freight operations. When I flew a 680FL to Pago Pago to start Inter Island Air, I stole one of Suburban Air's mechanics to be my Director of Maintenance. He related their fleet wide experience of lack of valve guide lubrication t hat they attributed to lower lead content fuel than what the engine was des igned for. Keep in mind this engine was designed in the late 1940s and put in production in the early 1950s. There's the info. Use it as you will. As a personal operator you probably won't put enough hours on the engines to feel the difference, other than fu el cost, between ROP and LOP. The GAMI guys have done a lot to fix some of the bad mythology most if us w ere raised on. Keep in mind the IGSO-540 has single point fuel injection a t the super charger. It is a very unique engine and was only installed on the AeroCommander 680- F series. (A version did go on the BE80 QueenAir; Beech had to meet the m arket challenge of the 680F series.) I hesitate to teach flying via email, but ... One more tip for you, Glenn, transitioning from your direct drive engines t o the IGSO-540: On final approach do not move the props to high RPM. Leave those levers at your cruise setting all -- the way to touch down. If you find you need to go around or miss the approach, you have enough pow er moving the throttle to low cruise power to start the maneuver, then incr ease RPM to a climb value, flowed by smooth throttle application to climb p ower if needed. The name of the game is to keep the gear box loaded from the engine side at all times. That advice will offend everyone who got their multi engine rating in a Duc hess last week. K.S.Gordon Sent on the Fly \uD83C\uDF10 -------- Original message -------- From: Glenn Hancock Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Bill, Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're talking about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it was differe nt. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane but the fact tha t the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you can't run auto gas in high output engines is that fact alone. I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer is not No right off the bat.. :-) Glenn On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton wrote: Glenn, Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but lo ok up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web site, o r give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team who run engi ne operation training, and they have plenty of solid documentation. Or just Google John Deakin. You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine monitor, t his is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already fitted. With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far running L OP. =9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM characterist ics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane auto lean, 130 oc tane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that corresponds to that specif ication,(also known as Normal and Rich if the engine is Wright). Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and Lycom ing for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT the reas on this seat material is used. You would have to have some very very old cy linders for it to be a problem. None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you wil l not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell is 86 octane. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders. I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right st uff. A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip sticks b uilt in. You'll find the GALLON markings there. You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out. I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal. The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe. No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the time , there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was availa ble. You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if they' re still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds fuel contro l support for your engines. Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that was w hen there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the 100/130 avgas of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication, so run ROP. More, later, but I have to run. K.S.Gordon Sent on the Fly \uD83C\uDF10 -------- Original message -------- From: Glenn Hancock Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin Comm ander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking. Since you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine problems, are t here any replacements available for the 680F(p) that would allow getting aw ay from the geared engines or possibly going to Turbine? Hoping I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these rebuilt and just making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I can't put an engine on. Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T? Thanks, Glenn On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA wrote: Hi Glenn I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See responses b elow. Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB 680F / N6253X Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World So a few question: 1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests? I w as taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say that. F or the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have had no pro blems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems. 2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main th ings you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same basic s tuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I do the fo llowing: Check static port port side, check hinges of elevators, look at r udder, check static port starboard side, drain main tank sump (access door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake lines & pads, pull/adjust bung ee, look into gear well for hoses, cables, etc, check flap hinges & aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank sump, check bungee, open outer engin e nacelle and inspect interior for oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engin e past prop for oil leaks, grab magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot t ube, check nose wheel, do the same on the port side. Be sure to check pres sure in the gear blow down gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi. 3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine but never ha d any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says nothing about this. 4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper p rocess for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine? I run the engines ROP, just to be safe. 5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand thes e geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curious of p roper technique because the manual again has zero info on this. I start do wn early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2 inches at a time and a djusting mixture in the descent. Final approach at 100 knots, with full fl aps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull back to idle until touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props. 6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown? There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are stretched when the mi xture levers are in the idle position, and eventually become fatigued. 7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill o ne tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks? Ho w many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn't gi ve any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main tank, with fuel po rt on top of wing between starboard engine and fuselage. Fill last few gal lons slowly because of baffles in the tanks. Two outboard tanks outboard o f the engines. Fill each tank separately. I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit o f information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a better s ource for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start fly ing them? Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and fuel /power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30 inches, 2600rpm, 190 knots true. Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere else so figured I'd try.. :-) Have a good weekend. Glenn On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend t his week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out th ere is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico. Glenn On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while r eplacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to resche dule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there. hopefully will figure it out. Glenn On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote: Welcome Glenn. I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly befo re his passing. Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas ! Cheers, Richard From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last mont h from twin cessna convention. Glenn On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote: Glenn If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you coul d make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs. Bob From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills. If I can help in any way, let me know. It is a very special plane. Call me. Tylor Hall tylorhall@mac.com First Fueling Systems, Inc. 401 Monte Alto PL NE Albuquerque, NM 87123 505-400-8373 Cell 505-247-3001 www.firstfueling.com On J ~, g=D3=93 ==== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:10:17 PM PST US From: "Keith S. Gordon" Subject: Commander-List: AC680F Info Glenn, This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well. Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation. This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that. I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model. Speeds are for a long-body model. If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm not in that business at this time. Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to your own conclusion. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:10:58 PM PST US From: Chris Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander-List Hello World It's a rare opportunity - I had to take it! Wishing you and your family well. I hope to have my bird back in the air in the next few months. I'd still like to drop in and visit. cheers, Chris BobsV35B@aol.com wrote: > Ya got me Chris! > Happy Skies, > Old Bob ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:07 PM PST US From: "Michael Orth" Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info >If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm not in that business at this time. This disclaimer is probably the most elegant I have ever seen. Congratulations! Michael ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From: Keith S. Gordon Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2015 4:09 PM Subject: Commander-List: AC680F Info Glenn, This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well. Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation. This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that. I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model. Speeds are for a long-body model. If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm not in that business at this time. Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to your own conclusion. Wing Commander Gordon Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 07/05/15 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:37 PM PST US From: BobsV35B@aol.com Subject: Re: Commander-List: Commander-List Hello World Love To See You! Please call first so I can tell you of our agreed operating procedures! 630 985-8502 (Land Line) 530 842-8627 (Mobile) LL22 Happy Skies, Old Bob In a message dated 7/5/2015 7:12:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time, cschuerm@cox.net writes: --> Commander-List message posted by: Chris It's a rare opportunity - I had to take it! Wishing you and your family well. I hope to have my bird back in the air in the next few months. I'd still like to drop in and visit. cheers, Chris ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:06 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info From: Glenn Hancock I didn't get a checklist or don't know how to download it. I'll keep looking but wanted to reply to a few of you as I've been out at the airport all day. I pretty much fly my 310 in the same way you're talking about flying the commander. I don't push the props forward until I'm almost down on the ground. I also don't jockey the throttles forward or back as my grandfather (who started me flying when I was 10) pretty much beat that into my head. One thing I do though is if I need to come down and don't want to add too much speed I'll pitch the props more and back off a little on the Manifold. I have every intention to learn how to properly fly the airplane and won't be bringing over bad habits that could cause problems. I want to learn every system as well as possible and learn all the necessary steps to keep the airplane flying as long as possible. I do fly LOP everywhere in the 310, mainly because the CHT stays a lot cooler there and I don't lose much airspeed in the process. Before I do this in the Commander though I will learn the systems and possible problems. If ROP works better I'm in agreement that gas is cheaper than cylinders, just like to know as much as possible for making a decision. I appreciate all of you tuning in as I was a bit afraid I was buying a plane that didn't have much support behind it. Its looking like there are enough of you out there to help me keep it going and that is refreshing. Yoda, as you guys call him, was nice enough to spend quite a bit of time talking to me and telling me everything to watch out for. I was trying to get him to do the pre-buy on it but he's been covered up and I had to get a shop in TN to go out there with me to get it done. I'm trying to learn as much as possible myself to make sure they look at all of the important parts. The main thing I'm concerned about is the left engine is literally sitting and emptying itself of oil. It hasn't been flown since last December as far as I can tell and it had made a puddle for the hour it sat on the ramp for me to look at it. I've been told it probably isn't anything major and the shop that does the annual seemed surprised to hear it was leaking as they said the engines were really tight when they saw them last. I am a little suspect though as I see oil all over the wings, gear and top of the wing on both engines, but this may be normal. Thanks to all of you for all the information. I am soaking it all in. Glenn On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 8:10 PM, Michael Orth wrote: > >*If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your > airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor > her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm > not in that business at this time.* > > This disclaimer is probably the most elegant I have ever seen. > Congratulations! > > Michael > ------------------------------ > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Keith S. Gordon > *Sent:* Sunday, July 5, 2015 4:09 PM > *To:* commander-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Commander-List: AC680F Info > > *Glenn,* > > *This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.* > > *Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all > movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.* > > *This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that. > I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all > Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model.* > > *Speeds are for a long-body model.* > > *If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your > airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor > her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm > not in that business at this time.* > > *Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the > aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be > educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to > your own conclusion.* > > > *Wing Commander Gordon* > Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. > > ------------------------------ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > > * > > > * > > -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:55:57 PM PST US From: "William J Hamilton" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, Pleased to hear you found these courses useful, it is re-teaching what those of us are old enough to remember was normal engine operating knowledge in the WW II through to the early =9860=99s. You should try and find a manufacturer=99s handbook for the engine, published back then, it may have the LOP info. It will certainly have rpm/boost curves that will be helpful, but are probably not in the AFM in as much detail. I have the greatest of respect for John Deakin and his efforts. Re. Octane, this is the determinant of the =9Cknock rating=9D of the fuel, and TEL indeed increases the octane rating. Interestingly, many of the base fuels now available to produce avgas have a higher =9Cnatural=9D octane rating, and need less TEL (or other additives) to produce the ASTM specification octane, whether it is =9Cresearch=9D or =9Cmotor=9D octane. A long time ago, now, back in my days as a university student, part of the engineering course was playing with a single cylinder test engine, with variable compression ratio, to determine the actual octane of a fuel sample, and playing around with additives, including varying TEL, and testing the results. Also, of course, testing with various fuel/air ratios. One thing we found was that oil companies were a bit naughty about advertised octane ratings for auto gas, the numbers had more to do with what the opposition were claiming in advertising than the test results we derived from a suitably calibrated test engine. RE. valve seats, despite much recent correspondence on web sites, years ago TEL also played a part in valve seat life, particularly exhaust valves, and from the (I would guess) early =9870s, there were major changes to valve seat material and valves in autos. Lead as lead naphthalate was also a common high pressure lubricant additive, for things like diffs. The old engine additive, Bardahl was essentially lead naphthalate. Interestingly, the loss of low octane aviation fuels and the widespread use of TEL created a problem with many old engines, if they had bronze cylinder heads, the TEL wrecked them very quickly. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:24 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Bill, Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're talking about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it was different. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane but the fact that the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you can't run auto gas in high output engines is that fact alone. I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer is not No right off the bat.. :-) Glenn On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton wrote: Glenn, Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but look up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web site, or give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team who run engine operation training, and they have plenty of solid documentation. Or just Google John Deakin. You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine monitor, this is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already fitted. With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far running LOP. =9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM characteristics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane auto lean, 130 octane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that corresponds to that specification,(also known as Normal and Rich if the engine is Wright). Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and Lycoming for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT the reason this seat material is used. You would have to have some very very old cylinders for it to be a problem. None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you will not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell is 86 octane. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders. I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right stuff. A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip sticks built in. You'll find the GALLON markings there. You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out. I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal. The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe. No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the time, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was available. You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if they're still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds fuel control support for your engines. Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that was when there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the 100/130 avgas of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication, so run ROP. More, later, but I have to run. K.S.Gordon Sent on the Fly =F0=9F=8C=90 -------- Original message -------- From: Glenn Hancock Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin Commander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking. Since you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine problems, are there any replacements available for the 680F(p) that would allow getting away from the geared engines or possibly going to Turbine? Hoping I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these rebuilt and just making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I can't put an engine on. Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T? Thanks, Glenn On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA wrote: Hi Glenn I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See responses below. Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB 680F / N6253X logoRED-126x38@72dpi Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World So a few question: 1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests? I was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say that. For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have had no problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems. 2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same basic stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I do the following: Check static port port side, check hinges of elevators, look at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main tank sump (access door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake lines & pads, pull/adjust bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables, etc, check flap hinges & aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank sump, check bungee, open outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the same on the port side. Be sure to check pressure in the gear blow down gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi. 3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says nothing about this. 4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine? I run the engines ROP, just to be safe. 5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curious of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on this. I start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2 inches at a time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach at 100 knots, with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull back to idle until touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props. 6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown? There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are stretched when the mixture levers are in the idle position, and eventually become fatigued. 7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks? How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn't give any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main tank, with fuel port on top of wing between starboard engine and fuselage. Fill last few gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks. Two outboard tanks outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately. I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a better source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start flying them? Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30 inches, 2600rpm, 190 knots true. Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere else so figured I'd try.. :-) Have a good weekend. Glenn On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico. Glenn On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there. hopefully will figure it out. Glenn On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote: Welcome Glenn. I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly before his passing. Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas ! Cheers, Richard From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last month from twin cessna convention. Glenn On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote: Glenn If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs. Bob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills. If I can help in any way, let me know. It is a very special plane. Call me. Tylor Hall tylorhall@mac.com First Fueling Systems, Inc. 401 Monte Alto PL NE Albuquerque, NM 87123 505-400-8373 Cell 505-247-3001 www.firstfueling.com On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining your ranks soon. Glenn Hancock http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:54 PM PST US From: "William J Hamilton" Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hello World Folks, As a minor point (this might sound a bit the =9C the full anorak=9D) but this engine was also used in the Piaggio P-166C, as well as the Queenair 85. I have flown the engine in both the Queenair 85 and the =9Cbig Pig=9D as well as the 680FL. I can=99t agree more about the engine handling recommendations. Get the original manufacturer=99s engine manual. Fundamentally, if I can see your hand moving, you are opening or closing the throttle too fast. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S. Gordon Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Greetings Wing Commander Gordon. I agree with all you have said. Thanks, Mate! After the past 17 years exclusively in Falcon Jets, I've lost a lot of the knowledge I had, living in and with Commanders since 1978. Once in a while some of the ideas come back to me, I share it, and then worry if I've just broadcast a bunch of dung. Best, "Wing Commander Gordon" Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. KHND RNAV Lead FAASTeam, Las Vegas NBAA Access Committee, Past Chairman Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: Richard Sent: Sun, Jul 5, 2015 3:39 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hello World Greetings Wing Commander Gordon. I agree with all you have said. My personal experiences on this very same aircraft, having spent many hours flying with Moe. Twice we wrecked cylinders. Both the rear ones and unfortunately absolute bastards to change. My personal feelings and watching the experiences of many of my mates. Fuel is cheaper than cylinders. Glenn learn how to operate the engines from someone who owns one. Geared Supercharged are like nothing you have ever experienced. Roll up the throttles slowly. Pull them back even slower. You really have to think about planning your descents. As Keith says NEVER put the props back into fine on approach and landing. Never use the props to slow you down. Never close the throttles. The engines need to be making power ALL the time. Never let the props drive the engines. Flying these things is easy. Except the geared ones. Its all about operating the engines. I have a nerve that runs from my throttle hand to my brain, then through my butt and finally ends in my wallet. It is very easy to blow these things up. People who generally have no idea or experience will tell you all sorts of horror stories. Treat them right and you will have the sweetest, smoothest power you have ever experienced. There is a wealth of knowledge in this group. Use it. Cheers, Richard From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon Sent: Monday, 6 July 2015 4:43 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Gentlemen, This is a well worn trail. To be clear, I do advocate LOP for the IGSO-540 (and others) and somewhere have the original Lycoming engine operating handbook graph to show how advantageous the cylinder head temperature drop is. My recommendation for ROP comes from Suburban Airlines who used to run a fleet of 680FL in nightly freight operations. When I flew a 680FL to Pago Pago to start Inter Island Air, I stole one of Suburban Air's mechanics to be my Director of Maintenance. He related their fleet wide experience of lack of valve guide lubrication that they attributed to lower lead content fuel than what the engine was designed for. Keep in mind this engine was designed in the late 1940s and put in production in the early 1950s. There's the info. Use it as you will. As a personal operator you probably won't put enough hours on the engines to feel the difference, other than fuel cost, between ROP and LOP. The GAMI guys have done a lot to fix some of the bad mythology most if us were raised on. Keep in mind the IGSO-540 has single point fuel injection at the super charger. It is a very unique engine and was only installed on the AeroCommander 680-F series. (A version did go on the BE80 QueenAir; Beech had to meet the market challenge of the 680F series.) I hesitate to teach flying via email, but ... One more tip for you, Glenn, transitioning from your direct drive engines to the IGSO-540: On final approach do not move the props to high RPM. Leave those levers at your cruise setting all -- the way to touch down. If you find you need to go around or miss the approach, you have enough power moving the throttle to low cruise power to start the maneuver, then increase RPM to a climb value, flowed by smooth throttle application to climb power if needed. The name of the game is to keep the gear box loaded from the engine side at all times. That advice will offend everyone who got their multi engine rating in a Duchess last week. K.S.Gordon Sent on the Fly \uD83C\uDF10 -------- Original message -------- From: Glenn Hancock Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Bill, Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're talking about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it was different. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane but the fact that the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you can't run auto gas in high output engines is that fact alone. I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer is not No right off the bat.. :-) Glenn On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton wrote: Glenn, Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but look up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web site, or give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team who run engine operation training, and they have plenty of solid documentation. Or just Google John Deakin. You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine monitor, this is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already fitted. With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far running LOP. =9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM characteristics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane auto lean, 130 octane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that corresponds to that specification,(also known as Normal and Rich if the engine is Wright). Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and Lycoming for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT the reason this seat material is used. You would have to have some very very old cylinders for it to be a problem. None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you will not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell is 86 octane. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders. I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right stuff. A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip sticks built in. You'll find the GALLON markings there. You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out. I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal. The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe. No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the time, there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was available. You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if they're still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds fuel control support for your engines. Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that was when there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the 100/130 avgas of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication, so run ROP. More, later, but I have to run. K.S.Gordon Sent on the Fly \uD83C\uDF10 -------- Original message -------- From: Glenn Hancock Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin Commander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking. Since you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine problems, are there any replacements available for the 680F(p) that would allow getting away from the geared engines or possibly going to Turbine? Hoping I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these rebuilt and just making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I can't put an engine on. Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T? Thanks, Glenn On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA wrote: Hi Glenn I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See responses below. Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB 680F / N6253X Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World So a few question: 1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests? I was taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say that. For the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have had no problems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems. 2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main things you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same basic stuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I do the following: Check static port port side, check hinges of elevators, look at rudder, check static port starboard side, drain main tank sump (access door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake lines & pads, pull/adjust bungee, look into gear well for hoses, cables, etc, check flap hinges & aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank sump, check bungee, open outer engine nacelle and inspect interior for oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engine past prop for oil leaks, grab magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot tube, check nose wheel, do the same on the port side. Be sure to check pressure in the gear blow down gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi. 3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine but never had any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says nothing about this. 4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper process for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine? I run the engines ROP, just to be safe. 5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand these geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curious of proper technique because the manual again has zero info on this. I start down early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2 inches at a time and adjusting mixture in the descent. Final approach at 100 knots, with full flaps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull back to idle until touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props. 6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown? There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are stretched when the mixture levers are in the idle position, and eventually become fatigued. 7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill one tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks? How many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn't give any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main tank, with fuel port on top of wing between starboard engine and fuselage. Fill last few gallons slowly because of baffles in the tanks. Two outboard tanks outboard of the engines. Fill each tank separately. I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit of information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a better source for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start flying them? Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and fuel/power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30 inches, 2600rpm, 190 knots true. Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere else so figured I'd try.. :-) Have a good weekend. Glenn On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend this week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out there is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico. Glenn On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while replacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to reschedule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there. hopefully will figure it out. Glenn On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote: Welcome Glenn. I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly before his passing. Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas ! Cheers, Richard From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last month from twin cessna convention. Glenn On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote: Glenn If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you could make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs. Bob _____ From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills. If I can help in any way, let me know. It is a very special plane. Call me. Tylor Hall tylorhall@mac.com First Fueling Systems, Inc. 401 Monte Alto PL NE Albuquerque, NM 87123 505-400-8373 Cell 505-247-3001 www.firstfueling.com On J ~, _____ g=D3=93 -= --> http://forums.matron======= Forum - Navigator to browse List Un/Subscription, Browse, Chat, FAQ, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:00 PM PST US From: "Keith S. Gordon" Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World The old engine additive, Bardahl was essentially lead naphthalate. I've waited 50 years to find out what Bardahl was. Thank you, Bill Hamilt on! ~KG~ Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. KHND RNAV Lead FAASTeam, Las Vegas NBAA Access Committee, Chairman Las Vegas Airspace Users' Council, NBAA Rep Las Vegas RNAV Optimization Work Group, NBAA Rep Las Vegas Class B Redesign Committee, NBAA Rep -----Original Message----- From: William J Hamilton Sent: Sun, Jul 5, 2015 7:56 pm Subject: RE: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, Pleased to hear you found these courses useful, it is re-teaching what thos e of us are old enough to remember was normal engine operating knowledge in the WW II through to the early =9860=99s. You should try and find a manufacturer=99s handbook for the engine, p ublished back then, it may have the LOP info. It will certainly have rpm/bo ost curves that will be helpful, but are probably not in the AFM in as much detail. I have the greatest of respect for John Deakin and his efforts. Re. Octane, this is the determinant of the =9Cknock rating=9D o f the fuel, and TEL indeed increases the octane rating. Interestingly, many of the base fuels now available to produce avgas have a higher =9Cna tural=9D octane rating, and need less TEL (or other additives) to pro duce the ASTM specification octane, whether it is =9Cresearch =9D or =9Cmotor=9D octane. A long time ago, now, back in my days as a university student, part of the engineering course was playing with a single cylinder test engine, with var iable compression ratio, to determine the actual octane of a fuel sample, a nd playing around with additives, including varying TEL, and testing the re sults. Also, of course, testing with various fuel/air ratios. One thing we found was that oil companies were a bit naughty about advertis ed octane ratings for auto gas, the numbers had more to do with what the op position were claiming in advertising than the test results we derived from a suitably calibrated test engine. RE. valve seats, despite much recent correspondence on web sites, years ago TEL also played a part in valve seat life, particularly exhaust valves, a nd from the (I would guess) early =9870s, there were major changes to valve seat material and valves in autos. Lead as lead naphthalate was also a common high pressure lubricant additive , for things like diffs. The old engine additive, Bardahl was essentially l ead naphthalate. Interestingly, the loss of low octane aviation fuels and the widespread use of TEL created a problem with many old engines, if they had bronze cylinde r heads, the TEL wrecked them very quickly. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:24 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Bill, Thanks, I already run LOP and have been through the school you're talking about. Just wasn't sure about this particular engine and if it was differe nt. By the way, the deal with the 100LL is not the Octane but the fact tha t the lead helps to prevent detonation. The reason you can't run auto gas in high output engines is that fact alone. I'll do more research on it and see where I end up. At least the answer is not No right off the bat.. :-) Glenn On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 3:05 AM, William J Hamilton wrote: Glenn, Re. LOP operations, a lot of fuel and engine wear savings to be had, but lo ok up the guy, John Deakin, who run the Pelican=99s Perch web site, o r give the Gammijector guys a call to get the name of the team who run engi ne operation training, and they have plenty of solid documentation. Or just Google John Deakin. You do need multipoint CHT or EGT for each engine, and an engine monitor, t his is a good idea anyway, if the aircraft is not already fitted. With the greatest of respect to some of the views otherwise, there is still plenty of TEL (lead) in 100LL, that will not be a problem as far running L OP. =9C100LL=9D is good for the greenies, but the ASTM characterist ics for 100LL are the same as for 100/130, ie: 100 octane auto lean, 130 oc tane auto rich (P&W) or the fuel/air ration that corresponds to that specif ication,(also known as Normal and Rich if the engine is Wright). Indeed, the valve seats that have been fitted by both Continental and Lycom ing for years are suitable for unleaded fuel, although this is NOT the reas on this seat material is used. You would have to have some very very old cy linders for it to be a problem. None of the unleaded fuels are anything near 100/130 octane yet, so you wil l not be concerned. From memory, the one actually certified by Shell is 86 octane. Cheers, Bill Hamilton From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of K.S.Gordon Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2015 3:47 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, Welcome to the world of Aero Commanders. I've forgotten most of what I know, but luckily Randy gave you the right st uff. A little expansion: the oil tank caps aft of the nacelle have dip sticks b uilt in. You'll find the GALLON markings there. You'll also learn where your engines like to keep oil or blow it out. I've flown 680F, FL, FP and FLP and some like 3 3/4 gal. The 680T is a long body AC680FLP airframe. No, there is no engine rertrofit although people dream of this all the time , there are not enough air frames to support an STC if an engine was availa ble. You need to develop a relationship with Central Cylinder in Omaha, if they' re still in business. They're the engine, gearbox and Simmonds fuel contro l support for your engines. Lycoming advocates running LOP for cylinder temp and economy but that was w hen there was leaded avgas. Without the lead content of the 100/130 avgas of the prior century, you'll lack valve guide lubrication, so run ROP. More, later, but I have to run. K.S.Gordon Sent on the Fly \uD83C\uDF10 -------- Original message -------- From: Glenn Hancock Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Thanks for all the info. My manual and the check list I got from Twin Comm ander both say to run up to 3000RPM, which was why I was asking. Since you have the same engines though, if I end up with any engine problems, are t here any replacements available for the 680F(p) that would allow getting aw ay from the geared engines or possibly going to Turbine? Hoping I have no issues but have heard it's hard to get these rebuilt and just making sure I won't end up with an airframe that I can't put an engine on. Also, what is the difference between the airframes on a 680F and a 680T? Thanks, Glenn On Sat, Jul 4, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Randy Dettmer, AIA wrote: Hi Glenn I have a 680F, with the same engines. I will let you know how I operate my plane, which should be pretty much the same as the 680FP. See responses b elow. Randy Dettmer, AIA, NCARB 680F / N6253X Dettmer Architecture 663 Hill Street San Luis Obispo, CA 93405 805 541 4864 / fax 805 541 4865 www.dettmerarchitecture.com From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2015 7:56 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World So a few question: 1) Do you really run the engines up to 3000RPM during preflight tests? I w as taught to run up to 30000 rpm, however, the manual does not say that. F or the past 7 yrs or so, I do not run up to 3000 rpm, and I have had no pro blems. My run up is to 2200 rpm for mag check and systems. 2) Is there an actual preflight guide for 680FP's that explains the main th ings you should be looking for during preflight or is just the same basic s tuff as every other plane? Not aware of any pre-flight guide. I do the fo llowing: Check static port port side, check hinges of elevators, look at r udder, check static port starboard side, drain main tank sump (access door on side of fuselage under wing), check brake lines & pads, pull/adjust bung ee, look into gear well for hoses, cables, etc, check flap hinges & aileron hinges, drain port side outboard tank sump, check bungee, open outer engin e nacelle and inspect interior for oil, wires, cables, etc, look into engin e past prop for oil leaks, grab magnetos to assure anchorage, check pitot t ube, check nose wheel, do the same on the port side. Be sure to check pres sure in the gear blow down gauge in wheel well. Should be around 200 psi. 3) Where do you check the oil? Oil access panel on top of engine nacelle. Min 4 gallons per engine. I understand its a dry sump engine but never ha d any experience with them. Just curious as the manual says nothing about this. 4) Can you run the engines LOP and is there any information on the proper p rocess for this or is it pretty much same as every other engine? I run the engines ROP, just to be safe. 5) Is there any information on proper decent techniques? I understand thes e geared engines don't like being driven by the props but just curious of p roper technique because the manual again has zero info on this. I start do wn early for a 500 FPM descent, pulling back power 2 inches at a time and a djusting mixture in the descent. Final approach at 100 knots, with full fl aps, and about 15 inches. Don=99t pull back to idle until touchdown so not to drive the engines with the props. 6) Why do you leave the mixtures in the full rich setting after shutdown? There are springs in the Simmons fuel pumps which are stretched when the mi xture levers are in the idle position, and eventually become fatigued. 7) It mentions times for filling tanks but not process. Do you only fill o ne tank and all the others fill from it? Only fill the two left tanks? Ho w many tanks are there? Again, manual says to give it time but doesn't gi ve any real detail about it. Three tanks =93 main tank, with fuel po rt on top of wing between starboard engine and fuselage. Fill last few gal lons slowly because of baffles in the tanks. Two outboard tanks outboard o f the engines. Fill each tank separately. I purchased a new manual from Twin Commander people but it has a good bit o f information I'm used to seeing missing so not sure if there is a better s ource for this information or is it just stuff you learn when you start fly ing them? Another missing piece is cruise performance at different altitudes and fuel /power settings. I always cruise at around 70% power =93 30 inches, 2600rpm, 190 knots true. Sorry for all the questions but haven't been able to find it anywhere else so figured I'd try.. :-) Have a good weekend. Glenn On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Well, its official, going to try another trip next weekend and will spend t his week getting the 310 flying again. Disappointed but as it turns out th ere is a huge line of storms across GA that would have cancelled the flight anyway. I'll let you know when we get off for New Mexico. Glenn On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Well, I found a problem with my right alternator on the 310 tonight while r eplacing the fuel pump on the same engine. Looks like I'm having to resche dule or try to find a delta flight to get us out there. hopefully will figure it out. Glenn On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Richard wrote: Welcome Glenn. I too have spent many hours in this aircraft. Flew it with Moe shortly befo re his passing. Once you have flown Aero Commanders you will never go back to Cessnas ! Cheers, Richard From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Hancock Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 2:21 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Yes i will most likely make it there . Just came back from there last mont h from twin cessna convention. Glenn On Thursday, July 2, 2015, Steele, Bob wrote: Glenn If you decide to buy N680RR and join the TCFG it would be great if you coul d make it to the TCFG Fly-In this September in Colorado Springs. Bob From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tylor Hall Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 11:41 AM Subject: Re: Commander-List: Hello World Glenn, I live in Albuquerque, NM and have flown N680RR with Moe Mills. If I can help in any way, let me know. It is a very special plane. Call me. Tylor Hall tylorhall@mac.com First Fueling Systems, Inc. 401 Monte Alto PL NE Albuquerque, NM 87123 505-400-8373 Cell 505-247-3001 www.firstfueling.com On Jul 2, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Glenn Hancock wrote: Just wanted to introduce myself. I am traveling to New Mexico tomorrow to do a pre-buy on a Twin Commander 680Fp and hoping everything goes awesome and I can get it home to start the annual on it. Not sure how active this group is but wanted to say hello and I hope to be joining your ranks soon. Glenn Hancock http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you d own to their level and beat you with experience. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you d own to their level and beat you with experience. -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you d own to their level and beat you with experience. -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you d own to their level and beat you with experience. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you d own to their level and beat you with experience. -- --glenn hancock You can't win an argument with an ignorant person. They'll just drag you d own to their level and beat you with experience. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info From: William Boelte Keith, About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in the only r emaining Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth. The hydraulic pr essure switch developed a leak so that the electric hydraulic pump would hav e eventually run dry. I noticed the hydraulic pressure fluctuate between abo ut zero and 480 psi. I immediately pulled the Hyd. Pump CB and thought "Keit h said to pull this after take off". I had done it regularly with my own Com mander but had slipped into complacency. Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to make a n o flap landing and save what little may be there for one last desperate brak e attempt. As it turned out I was down to walking speed by the 6,000 ft turn off using just aerodynamic braking. Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic pressure l oss. It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I had to slow quite a bit and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and locked. The landing and roll out were uneventful. Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had brakes and nose wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X 200' runway and t hat huge AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the nose wheel up until abou t 30 kts. and the rudder made directional control easy. Kindest regards, Bill > On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon wrote: > > Glenn, > > This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well. > > Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all movem ent now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation. > > This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that. I'm p roviding this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all Commande rs and give you some operating ideas on your model. > > Speeds are for a long-body model. > > If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane o n top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her attorney ; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm not in that b usiness at this time. > > Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the aux h ydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be educational fo r you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to your own conclusi on. > > Wing Commander Gordon > > Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message commander-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Commander-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/commander-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/commander-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.