Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:31 AM - Re: Hello World (Glenn Hancock)
2. 06:18 AM - Re: Hello World (BobsV35B@aol.com)
3. 10:27 AM - Re: AC680F Info (Tom Fisher)
4. 12:06 PM - Re: AC680F Info (Keith S. Gordon)
5. 12:28 PM - Re: AC680F Info (Nick Martin)
6. 12:37 PM - Re: AC680F Info (Keith S. Gordon)
7. 12:55 PM - Re: AC680F Info (John Vormbaum)
8. 04:32 PM - Re: AC680F Info (Glenn Hancock)
9. 05:00 PM - Re: AC680F Info (Keith S. Gordon)
Message 1
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Message 2
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Good Morning Mister Kieth.S. Gordon
You wrote:
"Gentlemen,
This is a well worn trail.
To be clear, I do advocate LOP for the IGSO-540 (and others) and somewhere
have the original Lycoming engine operating handbook graph to show how
advantageous the cylinder head temperature drop is.
My recommendation for ROP comes from Suburban Airlines who used to run a
fleet of 680FL in nightly freight operations.
When I flew a 680FL to Pago Pago to start Inter Island Air, I stole one of
Suburban Air's mechanics to be my Director of Maintenance.
He related their fleet wide experience of lack of valve guide lubrication
that they attributed to lower lead content fuel than what the engine was
designed for. Keep in mind this engine was designed in the late 1940s and put
in production in the early 1950s.
There's the info. Use it as you will. As a personal operator you probably
won't put enough hours on the engines to feel the difference, other than
fuel cost, between ROP and LOP.
The GAMI guys have done a lot to fix some of the bad mythology most if us
were raised on. Keep in mind the IGSO-540 has single point fuel injection
at the super charger.
It is a very unique engine and was only installed on the AeroCommander
680-F series. (A version did go on the BE80 QueenAir; Beech had to meet the
market challenge of the 680F series.)
I hesitate to teach flying via email, but ...
One more tip for you, Glenn, transitioning from your direct drive engines
to the IGSO-540:
On final approach do not move the props to high RPM. Leave those levers
at your cruise setting all -- the way to touch down.
If you find you need to go around or miss the approach, you have enough
power moving the throttle to low cruise power to start the maneuver, then
increase RPM to a climb value, flowed by smooth throttle application to climb
power if needed.
The name of the game is to keep the gear box loaded from the engine side
at all times.
That advice will offend everyone who got their multi engine rating in a
Duchess last week.
K.S.Gordon"
Those words are obviously written from experience.
Wonderful data. My limited experience with the engine in question was
during the late 1950's.
I have never experienced the valve guide problem you mention. No doubt it
DID happen though my feeling is that further investigation would find that
the leaded fuel was not the needed fix!
Had to be something else. <G>
However, all of your operating techniques work great for everything from a
Continental 65 in a J-3 Cub to a Turbo Compound Wright 3350 in a Douglas
DC-7. Wish I had written them myself!
We still teach way too many old wives tales based on bad, though
effective, WWII expediency training.
Thank You!
Happy Skies,
Old Bob
(Active Flight instructor since 1949)
Message 3
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I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure and with no
flaps, brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end of the runway
it rolled off the side of the runway and traversed a ditch which finished
the plane for me.
Tom
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte <n55bz@cox.net> wrote:
> Keith,
>
> About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in the
> only remaining Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth. The
> hydraulic pressure switch developed a leak so that the electric hydraulic
> pump would have eventually run dry. I noticed the hydraulic pressure
> fluctuate between about zero and 480 psi. I immediately pulled the Hyd.
> Pump CB and thought "Keith said to pull this after take off". I had done it
> regularly with my own Commander but had slipped into complacency.
>
> Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to make
> a no flap landing and save what little may be there for one last desperate
> brake attempt. As it turned out I was down to walking speed by the 6,000 ft
> turnoff using just aerodynamic braking.
>
> Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic pressure
> loss. It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I had to slow
> quite a bit and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and locked.
>
> The landing and roll out were uneventful.
>
> Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had brakes
> and nose wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X 200' runway
> and that huge AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the nose wheel up
> until about 30 kts. and the rudder made directional control easy.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
>
> Bill
>
> On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon <cloudcraft@aol.com> wrote:
>
> *Glenn,*
>
> *This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.*
>
> *Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all
> movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.*
>
> *This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that.
> I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all
> Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model.*
>
> *Speeds are for a long-body model.*
>
> *If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your
> airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor
> her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm
> not in that business at this time.*
>
> *Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the
> aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be
> educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to
> your own conclusion.*
>
>
> *Wing Commander Gordon *
> Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
>
> <AC680FLP CHECKLIST 1.pdf>
>
> <IGSO540 FUEL FLOW CHART.pdf>
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
Message 4
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Bill,
Glad your outcome was OK. Good bit of piloting there.
Tom, your incident was heart breaking, especially since all of the work your put
into your MR RPM.
I've had 3 total hydraulic failures, (two in a 500A Colemill and one 680FLP) all
turned out OK ... but I know the trick.
To give credit where credit is due, Morris Kernick put the bee in my bonnet about
disabling the electric aux hydraulic pump. He put it in very clear terms while
I watched a Commander undergoing an annual at this hangar in Hayward 25+
years ago.
I thought about what he told me and then looked at it through the perspective of
Ted Smith's next design, the AeroStar. The 'Star did have a breaker type switch
for the electric aux pump specifically to disable it it cruise.
I think it should be a retrofit on all Commanders with electric aux hydraulic pumps.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 10:28 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure and with no flaps,
brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end of the runway it rolled
off the side of the runway and traversed a ditch which finished the plane for
me.
Tom
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte <n55bz@cox.net> wrote:
Keith,
About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in the only remaining
Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth. The hydraulic pressure
switch developed a leak so that the electric hydraulic pump would have eventually
run dry. I noticed the hydraulic pressure fluctuate between about zero
and 480 psi. I immediately pulled the Hyd. Pump CB and thought "Keith said to
pull this after take off". I had done it regularly with my own Commander but had
slipped into complacency.
Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to make a no
flap landing and save what little may be there for one last desperate brake attempt.
As it turned out I was down to walking speed by the 6,000 ft turnoff using
just aerodynamic braking.
Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic pressure loss.
It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I had to slow quite a bit
and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and locked.
The landing and roll out were uneventful.
Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had brakes and nose
wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X 200' runway and that huge
AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the nose wheel up until about 30 kts.
and the rudder made directional control easy.
Kindest regards,
Bill
On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon < cloudcraft@aol.com> wrote:
Glenn,
This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.
Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all movement
now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.
This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that.
I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all Commanders
and give you some operating ideas on your model.
Speeds are for a long-body model.
If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane
on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her attorney;
it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm not in that
business at this time.
Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the
aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be educational
for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to your own conclusion.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
<AC680FLP CHECKLIST 1.pdf>
<IGSO540 FUEL FLOW CHART.pdf>
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 5
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Wing Commander Gordon,
We fly a 690A . After losing the Hydraulic accumulator in flight we
pulled the breaker on the aux hydraulic and made a safe landing ..Since
then our practice is to pull the aux hydraulic breaker before
takeoff..Is there a reason to leave the breaker in before takeoff and
pull later ? ( possibly steering and breaks )..thanks,Nick N674nm
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S.
Gordon
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
Bill,
Glad your outcome was OK. Good bit of piloting there.
Tom, your incident was heart breaking, especially since all of the work
your put into your MR RPM.
I've had 3 total hydraulic failures, (two in a 500A Colemill and one
680FLP) all turned out OK ... but I know the trick.
To give credit where credit is due, Morris Kernick put the bee in my
bonnet about disabling the electric aux hydraulic pump. He put it in
very clear terms while I watched a Commander undergoing an annual at
this hangar in Hayward 25+ years ago.
I thought about what he told me and then looked at it through the
perspective of Ted Smith's next design, the AeroStar. The 'Star did
have a breaker type switch for the electric aux pump specifically to
disable it it cruise.
I think it should be a retrofit on all Commanders with electric aux
hydraulic pumps.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 10:28 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure and with
no flaps, brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end of the
runway it rolled off the side of the runway and traversed a ditch which
finished the plane for me.
Tom
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte <n55bz@cox.net> wrote:
Keith,
About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in the
only remaining Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth. The
hydraulic pressure switch developed a leak so that the electric
hydraulic pump would have eventually run dry. I noticed the hydraulic
pressure fluctuate between about zero and 480 psi. I immediately pulled
the Hyd. Pump CB and thought "Keith said to pull this after take off". I
had done it regularly with my own Commander but had slipped into
complacency.
Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to
make a no flap landing and save what little may be there for one last
desperate brake attempt. As it turned out I was down to walking speed by
the 6,000 ft turnoff using just aerodynamic braking.
Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic
pressure loss. It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I had
to slow quite a bit and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and
locked.
The landing and roll out were uneventful.
Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had brakes
and nose wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X 200'
runway and that huge AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the nose
wheel up until about 30 kts. and the rudder made directional control
easy.
Kindest regards,
Bill
On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon < cloudcraft@aol.com> wrote:
Glenn,
This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.
Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all
movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.
This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that.
I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all
Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model.
Speeds are for a long-body model.
If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane
on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her
attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm
not in that business at this time.
Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the
aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be
educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to
your own conclusion.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
<AC680FLP CHECKLIST 1.pdf>
<IGSO540 FUEL FLOW CHART.pdf>
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-= --> http://forums.matron=======
<http://forums.matronics.com>
<http://forums.matronics.com>
<http://forums.matronics.com>
<http://forums.matronics.com>
Forum -
Navigator to browse
List Un/Subscription,
Browse, Chat, FAQ,
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
Message 6
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Is there a reason to leave the breaker in before takeoff and pull later ?
Nick,
Yes. If a meteor where to strike your Commander in just the right place, you'd
lose hydraulic fluid during taxi, meaning you'd lose nose wheel steering and
brakes.
A Turbo Commander has the advantage of beta range on the props; you can always
stop, (back up if you need to) and steer with differential beta / power.
Of course, if you did disable your aux pump after engines start and noticed you
lost hydraulic pressure, you could re-engage the breaker if you had your wits
about you, and have an easier time of steering back to the ramp.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Martin <nick@container.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 12:29 pm
Subject: RE: Commander-List: AC680F Info
Wing Commander Gordon,
We fly a 690A . After losing the Hydraulic accumulator in flight we pulled the
breaker on the aux hydraulic and made a safe landing ..Since then our practice
is to pull the aux hydraulic breaker before takeoff..Is there a reason to leave
the breaker in before takeoff and pull later ? ( possibly steering and breaks
)..thanks,Nick N674nm
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S. Gordon
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
Bill,
Glad your outcome was OK. Good bit of piloting there.
Tom, your incident was heart breaking, especially since all of the work your put
into your MR RPM.
I've had 3 total hydraulic failures, (two in a 500A Colemill and one 680FLP) all
turned out OK ... but I know the trick.
To give credit where credit is due, Morris Kernick put the bee in my bonnet about
disabling the electric aux hydraulic pump. He put it in very clear terms while
I watched a Commander undergoing an annual at this hangar in Hayward 25+
years ago.
I thought about what he told me and then looked at it through the perspective of
Ted Smith's next design, the AeroStar. The 'Star did have a breaker type switch
for the electric aux pump specifically to disable it it cruise.
I think it should be a retrofit on all Commanders with electric aux hydraulic pumps.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 10:28 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure and with no flaps,
brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end of the runway it rolled
off the side of the runway and traversed a ditch which finished the plane for
me.
Tom
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte <n55bz@cox.net> wrote:
Keith,
About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in the only remaining
Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth. The hydraulic pressure
switch developed a leak so that the electric hydraulic pump would have eventually
run dry. I noticed the hydraulic pressure fluctuate between about zero
and 480 psi. I immediately pulled the Hyd. Pump CB and thought "Keith said to
pull this after take off". I had done it regularly with my own Commander but had
slipped into complacency.
Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to make a no
flap landing and save what little may be there for one last desperate brake attempt.
As it turned out I was down to walking speed by the 6,000 ft turnoff using
just aerodynamic braking.
Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic pressure loss.
It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I had to slow quite a bit
and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and locked.
The landing and roll out were uneventful.
Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had brakes and nose
wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X 200' runway and that huge
AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the nose wheel up until about 30 kts.
and the rudder made directional control easy.
Kindest regards,
Bill
On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon < cloudcraft@aol.com> wrote:
Glenn,
This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.
Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all movement now
that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.
This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that. I'm providing
this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all Commanders and
give you some operating ideas on your model.
Speeds are for a long-body model.
If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your airplane on top
of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow nor her attorney; it is
only for use by people I have taught how to fly and I'm not in that business
at this time.
Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the aux hydraulic
circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be educational for you
and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to your own conclusion.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
<AC680FLP CHECKLIST 1.pdf>
<IGSO540 FUEL FLOW CHART.pdf>
" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-= --> http://forums.matron=======
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List
http://forums.matronics.com
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 7
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I had a hydraulic failure in my 500B; a hard line in the wing root
fractured. It would have been a flawless landing, but I was seduced by
fluctuating hyd. pressure AFTER I put the gear down, and before the nose
wheel locked. I thought I had enough pressure to cycle the gear.n
ot the case.
On the bright side, landing at Stockton, I held the nose off until I
lost elevator authority, and veeeeerrry gently set it down on the nose
wheel, which rolled for a bit and then collapsed while still going 5
knots or so. Only consequence was a damaged gear door and one broken
bell crank. Directional control was never in doubt, and with both
engines running, asymmetric thrust made it easy. I think Morris had me
back in the air in a day or two.
The two lessons I learned:
1) Once you put the gear handle down, after a hyd. failure, LEAVE IT
THERE. This was actually beaten into me by Morris and others, but the
beatings evidently didn=99t take.
2) A hydraulic failure in a Commander, even if slightly mismanaged,
isn=99t a crisis unless you have to do some kind of high
performance landing. With enough runway, it matters not.
/John
> On Jul 6, 2015, at 12:27 PM, Nick Martin <nick@container.com> wrote:
>
> Wing Commander Gordon,
>
> We fly a 690A . After losing the Hydraulic accumulator in flight we
pulled the breaker on the aux hydraulic and made a safe landing ..Since
then our practice is to pull the aux hydraulic breaker before
takeoff..Is there a reason to leave the breaker in before takeoff and
pull later ? ( possibly steering and breaks )..thanks,Nick N674nm
>
> From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com>
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com>] On Behalf Of Keith
S. Gordon
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:06 PM
> To: commander-list@matronics.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
>
> Bill,
>
> Glad your outcome was OK. Good bit of piloting there.
>
> Tom, your incident was heart breaking, especially since all of the
work your put into your MR RPM.
>
> I've had 3 total hydraulic failures, (two in a 500A Colemill and one
680FLP) all turned out OK ... but I know the trick.
>
> To give credit where credit is due, Morris Kernick put the bee in my
bonnet about disabling the electric aux hydraulic pump. He put it in
very clear terms while I watched a Commander undergoing an annual at
this hangar in Hayward 25+ years ago.
>
> I thought about what he told me and then looked at it through the
perspective of Ted Smith's next design, the AeroStar. The 'Star did
have a breaker type switch for the electric aux pump specifically to
disable it it cruise.
>
> I think it should be a retrofit on all Commanders with electric aux
hydraulic pumps.
>
> Wing Commander Gordon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca
<mailto:tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>>
> To: commander-list <commander-list@matronics.com
<mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>>
> Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 10:28 am
> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
>
> I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure and
with no flaps, brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end of
the runway it rolled off the side of the runway and traversed a ditch
which finished the plane for me.
> Tom
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte <n55bz@cox.net
<mailto:n55bz@cox.net>> wrote:
> Keith,
>
> About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in the
only remaining Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth. The
hydraulic pressure switch developed a leak so that the electric
hydraulic pump would have eventually run dry. I noticed the hydraulic
pressure fluctuate between about zero and 480 psi. I immediately pulled
the Hyd. Pump CB and thought "Keith said to pull this after take off". I
had done it regularly with my own Commander but had slipped into
complacency.
>
> Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to
make a no flap landing and save what little may be there for one last
desperate brake attempt. As it turned out I was down to walking speed by
the 6,000 ft turnoff using just aerodynamic braking.
>
> Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic
pressure loss. It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I had
to slow quite a bit and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and
locked.
>
> The landing and roll out were uneventful.
>
> Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had
brakes and nose wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X
200' runway and that huge AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the
nose wheel up until about 30 kts. and the rudder made directional
control easy.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
>
> Bill
>
> On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon < cloudcraft@aol.com
<mailto:cloudcraft@aol.com>> wrote:
>
>> Glenn,
>>
>> This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as
well.
>>
>> Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for all
movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.
>>
>> This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of that.
I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will work in all
Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model.
>>
>> Speeds are for a long-body model.
>>
>> If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your
airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow
nor her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly
and I'm not in that business at this time.
>>
>> Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling the
aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will be
educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come to
your own conclusion.
>>
>> Wing Commander Gordon
>>
>> Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
>> <AC680FLP CHECKLIST 1.pdf>
>> <IGSO540 FUEL FLOW CHART.pdf>
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Message 8
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Question: The 680Fp that I'm looking at has winglets. Did those come
from the factory with those or aftermarket and if aftermarket, how do
they effect the flying characteristics compared to the number in the manual?
Thanks,
Glenn
On 7/6/15 3:55 PM, John Vormbaum wrote:
> I had a hydraulic failure in my 500B; a hard line in the wing root
> fractured. It would have been a flawless landing, but I was seduced by
> fluctuating hyd. pressure AFTER I put the gear down, and before the
> nose wheel locked. I thought I had enough pressure to cycle the
> gear.not the case.
>
> On the bright side, landing at Stockton, I held the nose off until I
> lost elevator authority, and veeeeerrry gently set it down on the nose
> wheel, which rolled for a bit and then collapsed while still going 5
> knots or so. Only consequence was a damaged gear door and one broken
> bell crank. Directional control was never in doubt, and with both
> engines running, asymmetric thrust made it easy. I think Morris had me
> back in the air in a day or two.
>
> The two lessons I learned:
>
> 1) Once you put the gear handle down, after a hyd. failure, LEAVE IT
> THERE. This was actually beaten into me by Morris and others, but the
> beatings evidently didnt take.
> 2) A hydraulic failure in a Commander, even if slightly mismanaged,
> isnt a crisis unless you have to do some kind of high performance
> landing. With enough runway, it matters not.
>
> /John
>
>
>> On Jul 6, 2015, at 12:27 PM, Nick Martin <nick@container.com
>> <mailto:nick@container.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Wing Commander Gordon,
>>
>> We fly a 690A . After losing the Hydraulic accumulator in flight we
>> pulled the breaker on the aux hydraulic and made a safe landing
>> ..Since then our practice is to pull the aux hydraulic breaker before
>> takeoff..Is there a reason to leave the breaker in before takeoff and
>> pull later ? ( possibly steering and breaks )..thanks,Nick N674nm
>>
>> *From:* owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com
>> <mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com> [mailto:owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] *On
>> Behalf Of *Keith S. Gordon
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2015 12:06 PM
>> *To:* commander-list@matronics.com <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
>>
>> *Bill,
>>
>> Glad your outcome was OK. Good bit of piloting there.
>>
>> Tom, your incident was heart breaking, especially since all of the
>> work your put into your MR RPM.
>>
>> I've had 3 total hydraulic failures, (two in a 500A Colemill and one
>> 680FLP) all turned out OK ... but I know the trick.
>>
>> To give credit where credit is due, Morris Kernick put the bee in my
>> bonnet about disabling the electric aux hydraulic pump. He put it in
>> very clear terms while I watched a Commander undergoing an annual at
>> this hangar in Hayward 25+ years ago.
>>
>> I thought about what he told me and then looked at it through the
>> perspective of Ted Smith's next design, the AeroStar. The 'Star did
>> have a breaker type switch for the electric aux pump specifically to
>> disable it it cruise.
>>
>> I think it should be a retrofit on all Commanders with electric aux
>> hydraulic pumps.
>>
>> Wing Commander Gordon*
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca
>> <mailto:tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>>
>> To: commander-list <commander-list@matronics.com
>> <mailto:commander-list@matronics.com>>
>> Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 10:28 am
>> Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
>>
>> I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure and
>> with no flaps, brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end
>> of the runway it rolled off the side of the runway and traversed a
>> ditch which finished the plane for me.
>> Tom
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte <n55bz@cox.net
>> <mailto:n55bz@cox.net>> wrote:
>> Keith,
>>
>> About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic failure in
>> the only remaining Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth.
>> The hydraulic pressure switch developed a leak so that the electric
>> hydraulic pump would have eventually run dry. I noticed the hydraulic
>> pressure fluctuate between about zero and 480 psi. I immediately
>> pulled the Hyd. Pump CB and thought "Keith said to pull this after
>> take off". I had done it regularly with my own Commander but had
>> slipped into complacency.
>>
>> Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I elected to
>> make a no flap landing and save what little may be there for one last
>> desperate brake attempt. As it turned out I was down to walking speed
>> by the 6,000 ft turnoff using just aerodynamic braking.
>>
>> Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydraulic
>> pressure loss. It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I
>> had to slow quite a bit and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and
>> locked.
>>
>> The landing and roll out were uneventful.
>>
>> Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps and had
>> brakes and nose wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X
>> 200' runway and that huge AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the
>> nose wheel up until about 30 kts. and the rudder made directional
>> control easy.
>>
>> Kindest regards,
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>
>>
>> On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon < cloudcraft@aol.com
>> <mailto:cloudcraft@aol.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> *Glenn,*
>>>
>>> *This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questions as well.*
>>>
>>> *Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be ON for
>>> all movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.*
>>>
>>> *This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to any of
>>> that. I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will
>>> work in all Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model.*
>>>
>>> *Speeds are for a long-body model.*
>>>
>>> *If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with your
>>> airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved
>>> widow nor her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught
>>> how to fly and I'm not in that business at this time.*
>>>
>>> *Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the pulling
>>> the aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will
>>> be educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can
>>> come to your own conclusion.*
>>>
>>>
>>> */Wing Commander Gordon/*
>>>
>>> Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
>>> <AC680FLP CHECKLIST 1.pdf>
>>> <IGSO540 FUEL FLOW CHART.pdf>
>> * " target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution *
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Message 9
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The winglets are aftermarket on all piston Commanders (and most Turbines).
Hopefully they're AeroDyne (Commander Aero of Ohio) and not some of knock-
offs that I've seen. Sir Barry should be able to tell you what's on (soon
to be) your plane.
AeroDyne (ala Dick Wartinger) had the winglets for the Aero Commanders test
ed in the wind tunnel at Wright-Patterson. According to Dick, it was deter
mined they were "as good as could be" aerodynamically and are built by a sh
op with PMA approval that makes aircraft structural parts.
Reports from owners vary -- some say they see a 5 KIAS increase in speed, s
ome say they see nothing.
Even Dick Wartinger said the real performance booster are the flap gap seal
s.
Certainly there's a number of owners on the list that can give you their re
al world experience.
They should not affect V speeds at all; no recertification flight testing w
as done to change the flight manual as far as I know. Bill Leff may have m
ore insight, if he's listening in.
By the way, do the winglets have reocognition lights? Those alone are wort
h the install price. in my opinion.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Hancock <glennh@gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
Question: The 680Fp that I'm looking at has winglets. Did those come fro
m the factory with those or aftermarket and if aftermarket, how do they eff
ect the flying characteristics compared to the number in the manual?
Thanks,
Glenn
On 7/6/15 3:55 PM, John Vormbaum wrote:
I had a hydraulic failure in my 500B; a hard line in the wing root fractur
ed. It would have been a flawless landing, but I was seduced by fluctuating
hyd. pressure AFTER I put the gear down, and before the nose wheel locked.
I thought I had enough pressure to cycle the gear.not the case.
On the bright side, landing at Stockton, I held the nose off until I lost e
levator authority, and veeeeerrry gently set it down on the nose wheel, whi
ch rolled for a bit and then collapsed while still going 5 knots or so. Onl
y consequence was a damaged gear door and one broken bell crank. Directiona
l control was never in doubt, and with both engines running, asymmetric thr
ust made it easy. I think Morris had me back in the air in a day or two.
The two lessons I learned:
1) Once you put the gear handle down, after a hyd. failure, LEAVE IT THERE.
This was actually beaten into me by Morris and others, but the beatings ev
idently didn=99t take.
2) A hydraulic failure in a Commander, even if slightly mismanaged, isn
=99t a crisis unless you have to do some kind of high performance landin
g. With enough runway, it matters not.
/John
On Jul 6, 2015, at 12:27 PM, Nick Martin < nick@container.com> wrote:
Wing Commander Gordon,
We fly a 690A . After losing the Hydraulic accumulator in flight w
e pulled the breaker on the aux hydraulic and made a safe landing ..Since t
hen our practice is to pull the aux hydraulic breaker before takeoff..Is th
ere a reason to leave the breaker in before takeoff and pull later ? ( poss
ibly steering and breaks )..thanks,Nick N674nm
From: owner-commander-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:o
wner-commander-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith S. Gordon
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:06 PM
To: commander-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
Bill,
Glad your outcome was OK. Good bit of piloting there.
Tom, your incident was heart breaking, especially since all of the work yo
ur put into your MR RPM.
I've had 3 total hydraulic failures, (two in a 500A Colemill and one 680FL
P) all turned out OK ... but I know the trick.
To give credit where credit is due, Morris Kernick put the bee in my bonne
t about disabling the electric aux hydraulic pump. He put it in very clear
terms while I watched a Commander undergoing an annual at this hangar in H
ayward 25+ years ago.
I thought about what he told me and then looked at it through the perspect
ive of Ted Smith's next design, the AeroStar. The 'Star did have a breake
r type switch for the electric aux pump specifically to disable it it cruis
e.
I think it should be a retrofit on all Commanders with electric aux hydrau
lic pumps.
Wing Commander Gordon
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Fisher <tfisher@commandergroup.bc.ca>
To: commander-list <commander-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 10:28 am
Subject: Re: Commander-List: AC680F Info
I wasn't so lucky with my 680FLP (Mr.RPM), I had zero pressure
and with no flaps, brakes or steering landing was fine but near the end of
the runway it rolled off the side of the runway and traversed a ditch whic
h finished the plane for me.
Tom
On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 9:14 PM, William Boelte <n55bz@cox.net>
wrote:
Keith,
About four years ago I experienced a complete hydraulic fail
ure in the only remaining Grand Renaissance Shrike on the way to Fort Worth
. The hydraulic pressure switch developed a leak so that the electric hydra
ulic pump would have eventually run dry. I noticed the hydraulic pressure f
luctuate between about zero and 480 psi. I immediately pulled the Hyd. Pump
CB and thought "Keith said to pull this after take off". I had done it reg
ularly with my own Commander but had slipped into complacency.
Since I did not know how much hydraulic fluid was left, I el
ected to make a no flap landing and save what little may be there for one l
ast desperate brake attempt. As it turned out I was down to walking speed b
y the 6,000 ft turnoff using just aerodynamic braking.
Incidentally the nose gear did not extend on its own on hydr
aulic pressure loss. It remained up and locked until I lowered the gear. I
had to slow quite a bit and do two abrupt pull ups to get it down and locke
d.
The landing and roll out were uneventful.
Had I used your procedure, I would have lowered the flaps an
d had brakes and nose wheel steering available. Thank God for the 8,002' X
200' runway and that huge AeroCommander tail. I was able to hold the nose w
heel up until about 30 kts. and the rudder made directional control easy.
Kindest regards,
Bill
On Jul 5, 2015, at 6:09 PM, Keith S. Gordon < cloudcraft@aol.com> wrote:
Glenn,
This will amuse you -- probably force a few hundred questi
ons as well.
Note that the check list is dated. Transponder should be
ON for all movement now that many airports have ASDE-X in operation.
This is for a pressurized model, disregard reference to an
y of that. I'm providing this help you develop a flow pattern that will wo
rk in all Commanders and give you some operating ideas on your model.
Speeds are for a long-body model.
If this check list is found at the bottom of a crater with
your airplane on top of it, I do not want to hear from your bereaved widow
nor her attorney; it is only for use by people I have taught how to fly an
d I'm not in that business at this time.
Watch the controversy that is caused by my advocating the
pulling the aux hydraulic circuit breaker after gear retraction. This will
be educational for you and after the debate has flamed out, you can come t
o your own conclusion.
Wing Commander Gordon
Life is not simple anywhere. Probably less so elsewhere.
<AC680FLP CHECKLIST 1.pdf>
<IGSO540 FUEL FLOW CHART.pdf>
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