Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:33 AM - Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming (BERNDSENCO@aol.com)
2. 07:37 AM - Franklin, compression and things (Gary Casey)
3. 10:56 AM - Re: Franklin, compression and things (Tedd McHenry)
4. 11:01 AM - Re: Franklin, compression and things (steve korney)
5. 02:04 PM - Teledyne Mattituck XE-360 Engine (LarryRobertHelming)
6. 02:56 PM - Re: Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming (John Swartout)
7. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming (Scott Bilinski)
8. 03:21 PM - Re: Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming (Scott Bilinski)
9. 04:05 PM - Re: Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming (Konrad Werner)
10. 06:47 PM - Re: Teledyne Mattituck XE-360 Engine (Gary Liming)
11. 07:04 PM - (Greg P Jannakos)
12. 09:37 PM - Re: Teledyne Mattituck XE-360 Engine (Terry Watson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming |
--> Engines-List message posted by: BERNDSENCO@aol.com
Gary,
We were talking about STOCK CERTIFIED engines here. If you want to hod rod a
Franklin and put it up against a 360 Lycoming, look out! The 220 Franklin is
carburated. You can add fuel injection to it, port and polish it, add
electronic ignition and you will have far above the 230 HP you claim for your hot
rodded Lycoming. Probably closer to 250 HP. And the Franklin will still be
turbine smooth in operation. A friend is starting work on a turbo or
supercharged Franklin soon. Should be interesting.
As for the Franklin fuel pump AD, it is restricted to the Polish made fuel
pumps. The original American made pumps are fine. The new pumps are around
$600 now and PZL has been providing them free to those who bought engines or
pumps from them.
I cruise my Franklins at 2500 RPM and still have more MP available than my
buddy does with his O-360.
I don't have an ax to grind with Lycoming. I'm just stating facts gathered
from actual long time operation with Franklins. I also fly a Continental in my
182 and a Lycoming 540 in a Pawnee. They are all 6 cylinder engines and I
can attest to the fact that the Franklin is much, much smoother running. I've
flown behind many different engines over the years and I still find the Franklin
is my favorite.
Jon Berndsen
In a message dated 6/4/2003 2:58:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
engines-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
> And, one other thing: the Franklin recently had an AD requiring the
> replacement of it's $65 diaphram fuel pump with an $1100 vane fuel pump.
>
> And, one other thing: Side-by-side, at altitude (8000+ feet) you can't
> pull
> the power back to 2400-2500 RPM and dial in the prop to keep the speed up
> like you can with a Lycoming. Bottom end torque is not all that good. If
> you
> like running at 2800 RPM, then the Franklin is great.
>
> 10:1 pistons are available for a Lycoming. For the experimental crowd, an
> IO360 with 10:1 and port and polish will put out over 230 hp. Add long
> rods
> and advance the cam a couple degrees and it'll put out a lot of low end
> torque
> and still turn 2800+ rpm and well over 230 hp.
>
> Let the controversary begin.
> Gary
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Franklin, compression and things |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
This list was quiet for too long.
The comment about low-end torque is, IMHO, only germane to a fixed-pitch
prop where one is desperate for as much takeoff power as possible, which of
course is accomplished at low rpm. Otherwise, you simply adjust the rpm and
manifold pressure to get the power you need. The exact rpm that gives 75%
power doesn't mean much - who cares whether you run at 2400 or 2450 rpm?
And using a longer rod to get more low-end torque? I don't think so.
First, you can't change rod lengths enough to do anything in the first
place. And second, a shorter rod will theoretically allow a higher
compression ratio, probably more than making up for any negative. Shorter
rods increase piston side loading and the tensile inertial loading, but that
is the only negative.
I have found that "smoothness" depends much more on the engine mounts and
propeller than the number of cylinders. For instance, my Cardinal
4-cylinder is MUCH smoother than my 6-cylinder 182RG even though they both
have Lycomings with similar engine mounting design. It's all in matching
the engine mounting to the airframe vibration characteristics. Adding more
cylinders and more blades is always directionally correct, though.
Gary Casey
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Franklin, compression and things |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Gary:
> And second, a shorter rod will theoretically allow a higher
> compression ratio, probably more than making up for any negative.
I haven't heard that before. Can you explain how it works?
> Shorter
> rods increase piston side loading and the tensile inertial loading, but that
> is the only negative.
Not quite true. The shorter the rod (or, more accurately, the lower the
rod:stroke ratio), the less time the piston spends near TDC (when measured in
linear distance, as opposed to crank postion). Consequently, combustion
efficiency is better the higher the rod:stroke ratio, because more of the
combustion occurs at the higher pressure. That translates to more power, other
things being equal.
However, there is a corresponding benefit of a lower rod:stroke ratio in that
the piston moves away from TDC more rapidly at the beginning of the intake
cycle, which can improve cylinder filling. I'm not sure what RPM that would
help at in a Lycoming or Franklin, though. It might be too high to be of
practical value.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Franklin, compression and things |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "steve korney" <s_korney@hotmail.com>
Gary Casey wrote...
And second, a shorter rod will theoretically allow a higher
compression ratio, probably more than making up for any negative. Shorter
rods increase piston side loading and the tensile inertial loading, but that
is the only negative.
Gary...
Would you please explain to me how a shorter rod can give higher
compression???
I agree with you on increased piston side loading with shorter rods...
Best...Steve...
Message 5
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| Subject: | Teledyne Mattituck XE-360 Engine |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
I would like to hear from anyone with knowledge about the captioned company
and engine.
They used to be an engine facility for Superior and the XP-360 but now they
sell the XE-360 engine. Price is reduced and makes it attractive. They
still have high standards from what I have read. I'd like to know more
before sending them the order none the less. Info will be appreciated.
Larry in Indiana, RV7 Tip-up O-360 3XG reserved.
Working on Canopy of Finish Kit
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
Scott, is that sump only for fuel injected engines? How can a sump add 5
hp?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
<bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> Sounds like 185 to 190 is easy. Also add a Superior Air parts sump for
> another 5 hp. To bad about that damn alcohol in the gas out here. I have
> not checked but I think it is, or will be in all gas soon.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Superior Air Parts cleaned up the internal passages, much like porting the
heads which causes it to flow better. Bart at AeroSport told me it was 5HP
so I had one added to a refurb engine he was building for me. Cost was
1500.00 if I remember correctly.
At 05:52 PM 6/4/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
>
>Scott, is that sump only for fuel injected engines? How can a sump add 5
>hp?
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>To: <engines-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Engines-List: Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming
>
>
>> --> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>>
>> Sounds like 185 to 190 is easy. Also add a Superior Air parts sump for
>> another 5 hp. To bad about that damn alcohol in the gas out here. I have
>> not checked but I think it is, or will be in all gas soon.
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Sorry did not answer your question. The one I got was for a standard carb
engine. I heard the there will be one with a forward facing sump soon but
dont know if its available yet.
At 05:52 PM 6/4/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
>
>Scott, is that sump only for fuel injected engines? How can a sump add 5
>hp?
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>To: <engines-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Engines-List: Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming
>
>
>> --> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>>
>> Sounds like 185 to 190 is easy. Also add a Superior Air parts sump for
>> another 5 hp. To bad about that damn alcohol in the gas out here. I have
>> not checked but I think it is, or will be in all gas soon.
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Konrad Werner" <Connywerner@wans.net>
That's a whopping 300BpHp (Bucks per Horsepower)
Quite a steep price for the gain, compared to other choices like a basic Lightspeed
E.I. which comes in at ~115BpHp (based on 180hp) for the single EI.
But then: Horsepower has its price, and it's only money, so who cares?
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Bilinski
To: engines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2003 4:19 PM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming
--> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Superior Air Parts cleaned up the internal passages, much like porting the
heads which causes it to flow better. Bart at AeroSport told me it was 5HP
so I had one added to a refurb engine he was building for me. Cost was
1500.00 if I remember correctly.
At 05:52 PM 6/4/03 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "John Swartout" <jgswartout@earthlink.net>
>
>Scott, is that sump only for fuel injected engines? How can a sump add 5
>hp?
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>To: <engines-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Engines-List: Re: Franklin vs. Lycoming
>
>
>> --> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>>
>> Sounds like 185 to 190 is easy. Also add a Superior Air parts sump for
>> another 5 hp. To bad about that damn alcohol in the gas out here. I have
>> not checked but I think it is, or will be in all gas soon.
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Teledyne Mattituck XE-360 Engine |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Gary Liming <gary@liming.org>
At 04:04 PM 6/4/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming"
><lhelming@sigecom.net>
>
>I would like to hear from anyone with knowledge about the captioned company
>and engine.
>
>They used to be an engine facility for Superior and the XP-360 but now they
>sell the XE-360 engine. Price is reduced and makes it attractive. They
>still have high standards from what I have read. I'd like to know more
>before sending them the order none the less. Info will be appreciated.
It seems that there are several companies that take the XP-360 kit (which
is relatively incomplete) and add some things to it and sell it
again. Mattituck is such a company, and they have an excellent reputation.
My experience, however, is with America's Aircraft Engines in Tulsa. They
took the Superior engine, built it for me, and fired it up on a test stand,
complete with electronic ignition I specified and 9:1 instead of the
nominal 8.5:1 compression (something I learned to do from talking to
Superior's VP of engineering - adds a couple of horses per cylinder with no
other adverse effect). I got a show special at OSH last year - you might
make the trip to OSH this year for just the same reason. You can save
$1-3K if you can make the trip. AAE offered a better warranty than
Superior, and they are nice folks to deal with, too. AAE calls it the
Eagle IV-EX, but its just the XP kit assembled.
Gary Liming
Message 11
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--> Engines-List message posted by: Greg P Jannakos <gpjann@juno.com>
I'm looking for an affordable C90 or O200.
Anyone have one for sale?
Greg
gpjann@juno.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Teledyne Mattituck XE-360 Engine |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
I'm quite sure I heard or read that Mattituck ended its relationship with
Superior and is now manufacturing engines with parts from another supplier.
Terry
--> Engines-List message posted by: Gary Liming <gary@liming.org>
At 04:04 PM 6/4/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming"
><lhelming@sigecom.net>
>
>I would like to hear from anyone with knowledge about the captioned company
>and engine.
>
>They used to be an engine facility for Superior and the XP-360 but now they
>sell the XE-360 engine. Price is reduced and makes it attractive. They
>still have high standards from what I have read. I'd like to know more
>before sending them the order none the less. Info will be appreciated.
It seems that there are several companies that take the XP-360 kit (which
is relatively incomplete) and add some things to it and sell it
again. Mattituck is such a company, and they have an excellent reputation.
My experience, however, is with America's Aircraft Engines in Tulsa. They
took the Superior engine, built it for me, and fired it up on a test stand,
complete with electronic ignition I specified and 9:1 instead of the
nominal 8.5:1 compression (something I learned to do from talking to
Superior's VP of engineering - adds a couple of horses per cylinder with no
other adverse effect). I got a show special at OSH last year - you might
make the trip to OSH this year for just the same reason. You can save
$1-3K if you can make the trip. AAE offered a better warranty than
Superior, and they are nice folks to deal with, too. AAE calls it the
Eagle IV-EX, but its just the XP kit assembled.
Gary Liming
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