Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: Electronic engine control (Grant Corriveau)
2. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: Electronic engine control (Tedd McHenry)
3. 10:04 AM - Re: Re: Electronic engine control (klehman@albedo.net)
4. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: Electronic engine control (Cy Galley)
5. 11:28 AM - Re: Re: Electronic engine control (Ed Anderson)
6. 04:57 PM - Re: Re: Electronic engine control (lm4@juno.com)
7. 06:43 PM - Re: Re: Electronic engine control (Tedd McHenry)
8. 07:17 PM - What engine are you flying (n1lm)
9. 08:26 PM - Re: Re: Electronic engine control (Ed Anderson)
10. 08:47 PM - Re: What engine are you flying (Tedd McHenry)
11. 09:11 PM - Re: Re: Electronic engine control (Tracy Crook)
12. 09:12 PM - Re: What engine are you flying (Tracy Crook)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic engine control |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Grant Corriveau <grantc@ca.inter.net>
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> I have mixed feelings about auto engine control systems. On the one hand,
> they are very reliable and provide very accurate engine control. On the other
> hand, they can lead to sudden engine stoppage without warning.
At least the electronic components are light and easy to install in
duplicate.. I have a CAM100 (Honda 1.5l conversion) with a dual electronic
ignition. Last summer I was having an intermittant problem with engine
faltering under certain conditions (especially heat), and I finally
determined that the problem was with one of the 2 Hall Effect sensor cables.
I'm not sure if I am ticked off that the one unit has a problem, or happy
that the other system worked fine so I never had to experience an
off-airport landing!
The CAM125 is equipped with electronic fuel injection - so maybe there are
other components here which provide a single-channel failure mode? If so,
maybe there is a way to provide duplication?
fwiw
--
Grant Corriveau
C-GHTF / HDS / CAM100
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic engine control |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
I'm really interested in how reduntant electronic engine systems can be
assembled. In my previous post I might have sounded negative about adopting
auto engine technology, but that's not the case. I'm just concerned about
insufficient redundancey in certain areas.
For example, how difficult (and expensive) would it be to have two complete
engine management systems that can be switched in flight? Or would that be
overkill? I know that there are already electronic ignition systems that work
that way. How feasible is it to make the switchover automatic if one system
fails? Remember, you're talking to a mechanical engineer, so keep the
explanation simple. I know what V=IR means, and have a rough idea what a diode
does, but beyond that my knowledge of electronics is pretty limited.
---
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic engine control |
--> Engines-List message posted by: klehman@albedo.net
Hi Tedd
There are many options of course but FWIW here is what I settled on. Two
independant ignitions continuously firing each spark plug through a high
voltage spark joiner (hv diode string). Also the ability to kill 12 volt
power to either system if timing goes out to lunch.
Welded in a second set of used injectors (an extra TBI injector might be
easier) and set up a US$100. homebuilt megasquirt efi computer to run
them. In the event of a problem this will require manual switching of 12
volt efi computer power. And a fuel valve must be turned to redirect
fuel to the second fuel rail in my implementation.
I'm not a fan of auto switchover but the best idea I've seen for that is
to just sense any sudden rpm loss. I'm not flying yet and I haven't
finished wiring it but the hardware is in place. Oh and I did add a
second electrical system powered by a little permanent magnet alternator
and some other stuff such as a second fuel pump and filter.
Ken
Tedd McHenry wrote:
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> I'm really interested in how reduntant electronic engine systems can be
> assembled. In my previous post I might have sounded negative about adopting
> auto engine technology, but that's not the case. I'm just concerned about
> insufficient redundancey in certain areas.
>
> For example, how difficult (and expensive) would it be to have two complete
> engine management systems that can be switched in flight? Or would that be
> overkill? I know that there are already electronic ignition systems that work
> that way. How feasible is it to make the switchover automatic if one system
> fails? Remember, you're talking to a mechanical engineer, so keep the
> explanation simple. I know what V=IR means, and have a rough idea what a diode
> does, but beyond that my knowledge of electronics is pretty limited.
>
> ---
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic engine control |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
If you had run a magneto on either engine, it would have failed several
times before the single failure in either time frame. Both current mags
suggest a 500 hour open and replace points, etc. The is also a re-occurring
AD on the Bendix impulses.
Sounds like the electronic ignition is much more reliable and if used in
twos, you could just throw one away after every other engine re-build.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or experimenter@eaa.org
Always looking for articles for the Experimenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Electronic engine control
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> I have mixed feelings about auto engine control systems. On the one hand,
they
> are very reliable and provide very accurate engine control. On the other
hand,
> they can lead to sudden engine stoppage without warning.
>
> My 1985 VW Jetta simply refused to start one day when the ignition module
died.
> It had about 200,000 km on it at the time. My 1990 Toyota Corolla died
while
> cruising down the road one day when the combined distributor-coil unit
died, at
> about 280,000 km. In both cases there were no symptoms (that I noticed)
prior
> to the failure.
>
> They were both pretty old, in aircraft terms. At an average speed of 50
km/h
> the Jetta would have had 4,000 hours on the clock and the Toyota about
5,600
> hours. Still, the fact that they were sudden, catastrophic (in aviation
terms)
> failures is disconcerting.
>
> My experience in reliability analysis is in mechanical systems, not
electronic.
> However, my understanding is that electronic failures tend to be random,
i.e.
> the probability of failure is fairly constant throughout the service life,
as
> opposed to mechanical failures where the probability typcially increases
with
> time. This suggests that the fact that these components will be used for
fewer
> hours in an aircraft application doesn't necessarily reduce the
probability of
> failure, per hour of flight.
>
> ---
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic engine control |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Tedd,
For the reasons you mentioned, I fly with an electronic ignition and
fuel injection system (combined) which has two separate CPU and sensor sets.
One serves as back up should the primary fail. It cost less than $1000, but
you do have to throw a switch.
Ed Anderson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Electronic engine control
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> I'm really interested in how reduntant electronic engine systems can be
> assembled. In my previous post I might have sounded negative about
adopting
> auto engine technology, but that's not the case. I'm just concerned about
> insufficient redundancey in certain areas.
>
> For example, how difficult (and expensive) would it be to have two
complete
> engine management systems that can be switched in flight? Or would that
be
> overkill? I know that there are already electronic ignition systems that
work
> that way. How feasible is it to make the switchover automatic if one
system
> fails? Remember, you're talking to a mechanical engineer, so keep the
> explanation simple. I know what V=IR means, and have a rough idea what a
diode
> does, but beyond that my knowledge of electronics is pretty limited.
>
> ---
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic engine control |
--> Engines-List message posted by: lm4@juno.com
Dear Tedd,
I used to know what V=IR meant, but I forgot.
Well anyway, You may not need that. There is something
called a coil joiner. I think it goes this way. Two HEI,s to
two coils, to the coil joiner, to the wires and plugs.
Or two wires to two coils to a coil joiner, to a distributor,
to wires and plugs. Since the primary wiring is low voltage,
low current you can put a selector switch into the curcuitry
early on and then when you have a failure simply throw the
switch and presto, you have a brand new ignition system. HTH
Larry Mac Donald
Rochester N.Y.
do not archive
On Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Tedd McHenry
<tedd@vansairforce.org> writes:
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry
> <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> I'm really interested in how reduntant electronic engine systems can
> be
> assembled. In my previous post I might have sounded negative about
> adopting
> auto engine technology, but that's not the case. I'm just concerned
> about
> insufficient redundancey in certain areas.
>
> For example, how difficult (and expensive) would it be to have two
> complete
> engine management systems that can be switched in flight? Or would
> that be
> overkill? I know that there are already electronic ignition systems
> that work
> that way. How feasible is it to make the switchover automatic if
> one system
> fails? Remember, you're talking to a mechanical engineer, so keep
> the
> explanation simple. I know what V=IR means, and have a rough idea
> what a diode
> does, but beyond that my knowledge of electronics is pretty limited.
>
> ---
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic engine control |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Ed Anderson wrote:
> For the reasons you mentioned, I fly with an electronic ignition and
> fuel injection system (combined) which has two separate CPU and sensor sets.
> One serves as back up should the primary fail. It cost less than $1000, but
> you do have to throw a switch.
Ed:
That sounds closest to what I had in mind, of the strategies mentioned so far.
So essentially you have to ECMs (ignition and fuel combined), and you can hot
switch from one to the other, is that right?
That sounds like a pretty good approach. You're probably still going to be
caught with your pants down if one system fails at just the wrong moment, say
when there's not enough runway left to stop but not enough speed and altitude
to make the switchover, but that's a pretty low-probability event.
Tedd
Message 8
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| Subject: | What engine are you flying |
--> Engines-List message posted by: n1lm <n1lm@concentric.net>
I have been very interested in the large Chevy V6, for my Glasair. What are you
flying or planning on flying, in your plane?
Lisa Marie
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic engine control |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Electronic engine control
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> On Fri, 13 Jun 2003, Ed Anderson wrote:
>
> > For the reasons you mentioned, I fly with an electronic ignition and
> > fuel injection system (combined) which has two separate CPU and sensor
sets.
> > One serves as back up should the primary fail. It cost less than $1000,
but
> > you do have to throw a switch.
>
> Ed:
>
> That sounds closest to what I had in mind, of the strategies mentioned so
far.
> So essentially you have to ECMs (ignition and fuel combined), and you can
hot
> switch from one to the other, is that right?
>
> That sounds like a pretty good approach. You're probably still going to
be
> caught with your pants down if one system fails at just the wrong moment,
say
> when there's not enough runway left to stop but not enough speed and
altitude
> to make the switchover, but that's a pretty low-probability event.
>
> Tedd
Your right of course, a failure at the wrong moment and it could get very
hairy quickly. On the other hand haven spent 26 years in the Air Force, I
have learned that if you train and practice for emergencys, the response
becomes automatic. Always have a first course of action, my first course is
alternate cpu switch. Before when I had the HALTECH system, I discovered
(fortunately on the ground) that the trigger signal for the fuel injection
system (which I had taken from the leading coil) would not be there if the
leading coil died - which happened. The second ignition system was sparking
away, but no fuel because the fuel trigger provider was the Leading coil and
when it died, I not only lost that spark BUT also my fuel system.
Well, I rigged a switch so that I could selected either the Leading or
Trailing ignition coil for the fuel injection trigger signal by a switch.
Well, one day I just got airborne about 30 ft and 80 mph when the engine
started to surge. I had to made a decision quickly and decided to put it
back on the ground (2300 ft runway) as I decided a long time ago I would
rather go off the end doing 30 MPH than find my self airborn with less
viable options. In any case, the only time I had for corrective action was
to switch to the alternate trigger for the fuel injection system (turns out
that wasn't the problem) before planting it back on the run way 300 ft from
the end (measure the tire marks) and stopped 12 feet off into the grass.
The point being that I had trained myself to switch to the alternate trigger
and did so automatically without thinking.
So while an automatic switching system would be nice, a fool proof fail safe
one would probably be hard to make. Just train yourself to throw that one
switch first thing.!!!
Ed Anderson
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: What engine are you flying |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> What are you flying or planning on flying, in your plane?
Despite being interested in auto conversions for many years, I will probably
install a Lycoming in my RV-6. I got a very good deal on a used O-320, which I
will probably overhaul and use.
On a future project, though, I hope to try something else, perhaps a rotary or
a V6. Or, if I build something smaller, a Corvair or VW.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Electronic engine control |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> I'm really interested in how reduntant electronic engine systems can be
> assembled. In my previous post I might have sounded negative about
adopting
> auto engine technology, but that's not the case. I'm just concerned about
> insufficient redundancey in certain areas.
>
> For example, how difficult (and expensive) would it be to have two
complete
> engine management systems that can be switched in flight? Or would that
be
> overkill? I know that there are already electronic ignition systems that
work
> that way. How feasible is it to make the switchover automatic if one
system
> fails? Remember, you're talking to a mechanical engineer, so keep the
> explanation simple. I know what V=IR means, and have a rough idea what a
diode
> does, but beyond that my knowledge of electronics is pretty limited.
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC
Two complete engine management systems is exactly what the EC2 engine
controller is. It is not terribly expensive. Don't want to sound like a
commercial here but if you are really interested the details and price is on
my website (see url below).
It does not automatically switch over in the event of a failure. There is a
manual switch from primary to backup controller that the pilot must select
in the event of a failure. Selecting & testing the backup controller is
part of preflight checks. I looked at it a long time and came to the
conclusion that the system to sense and switch the controllers would be more
complex and prone to failure than the controllers themselves. If you have
followed the shuttle program, you may have noticed that more missions are
scrubbed due to faulty fail-safe sensors & systems than to actual flight
systems failures.
Tracy Crook
www.rotaryaviation.com
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: What engine are you flying |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
> --> Engines-List message posted by: n1lm <n1lm@concentric.net>
>
> I have been very interested in the large Chevy V6, for my Glasair. What
are you
> flying or planning on flying, in your plane?
>
> Lisa Marie
Lisa, I've been flying the Mazda 13B rotary for almost 9 years and 1300+
flight hours. The Chevy V6 was considered for my RV-4 but it would have
been over aerobatic gross weight as soon as I climbed into the cockpit (I
weigh 165). The Mazda was the only alternative engine I found with the same
or less weight and same HP as the Lycoming.
Tracy Crook
>
>
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