Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 08:08 AM - Re: Micropressor based EC systems (Jerry Reynolds)
2. 08:31 AM - What engine are you flying (flyseaplane)
3. 12:42 PM - Re: What engine are you flying (n1lm)
4. 04:30 PM - Re: What engine are you flying (Justin)
5. 04:50 PM - Re: What engine are you flying (n1lm)
6. 05:44 PM - Re: What engine are you flying (Justin)
7. 06:26 PM - Re: What engine are you flying (n1lm)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Micropressor based EC systems |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Jerry Reynolds" <flyguy50@bluemarble.net>
> Time: 08:47:59 AM PST US
> From: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Electronic engine control
>
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> I'm really interested in how reduntant electronic engine systems can be
> assembled. In my previous post I might have sounded negative about
adopting
> auto engine technology, but that's not the case. I'm just concerned about
> insufficient redundancey in certain areas.
>
> For example, how difficult (and expensive) would it be to have two
complete
> engine management systems that can be switched in flight? Or would that
be
> overkill? I know that there are already electronic ignition systems that
work
> that way. How feasible is it to make the switchover automatic if one
system
> fails? Remember, you're talking to a mechanical engineer, so keep the
> explanation simple. I know what V=IR means, and have a rough idea what a
diode
> does, but beyond that my knowledge of electronics is pretty limited.
>
> ---
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC
Addressing the group in general here... An interesting discussion going.
You may find the more accepted formula is E=IR, but that isn't the point.
Speaking from a design standpoint, and being personally adept with
microprocessor based industrial control designs, I'll add a few comments.
Microprocessors and modern day electronics are inherently very reliable, if
a designer takes their working environment into consideration. Much higher
up on the "failure mode list" is pilot error, stalling the airplane, not
filling it with fuel, wrong fuel, etc. Spark plugs can foul, and you still
need to get clean fuel to an injector. High voltage coils or fuel injection
solenoids, (for automotive applications anyway) are very cheap to produce,
and you get what you pay for. Mass air flow sensors can read incorrectly if
covered with a thin film of dust. Temperature extremes, vibration,
corrosion, condensation, "un-planned" voltage excursions (including static
discharge or booster battery connections), mechanical connections and lead
failures, are all significant concerns and are much more likely for failures
FWF.
There is an "infant mortality" concern in the actual electronic components
wherein they might fail immediately after production, but beyond a few, up
to 24 hours or so, they will happily switch electron flow (the basic
transistor) all day long.. for YEARS! Burn-in for aircraft applications can
resolve this problem to a very high degree. Talking about "flipping power
switches" to control microprocessor based systems, would be like using a
crowbar to adjust your radio stack. Properly designed redundancy systems
could easily manage all the decisions, before the sound waves from the
hic-up, even made it to your ears! Automotive engineers know that you will
cell phone a tow truck if their system quits, so fresh, ground up designs
make a lot of sense, literally and figuratively! The processors and
associated electronics can know that the coils and injectors are being
driven with the correct voltage and current, or even drop one, if it
appears shorted or open, but knock sensors, and/or independent O2 sensors
can keep the processors informed, if each cylinder is actually firing. You
could even monitor the instantaneous speed variations, of the crankshaft
within the 4 cycles, and could probably flag a fouling plug...if you wanted
to add another sensor, and easily watch that data. Each power pulse should
cause the same slight increase in rotational speed. Considering the
operational speed of most processors today, the program would likely be
"just waiting" a good percentage of the time anyway.. might as well give it
something interesting to do. I don't think any current systems uses any
kind of feedback to observe the actual HV pulse to the plugs, (like your
automotive test set can do), but that would be doable too, with a fresh coil
design.
Microprocessors are just as reliable to make the first program step, as
millions of them.. and 3000 RPM x 8 cylinders x 1/2 (4 cycle engines) still
give ~5 milliseconds between ignition pulses, which is enough time for
literally a few million computer instructions to be executed.. and that is
with one slow processor.. not several, which a redundant system would likely
have on board.
Actual cost of components? In the hundreds. Engineering time, probably not
bad either. Add lawyers, liability insurance, and/or certifications, it
begins to look very differently. We're not talking about the complexities
of a space shuttle here either, and besides their total computing power
until just recently was significantly less than what I currently have
sitting on my desk, to type this message. Sooner or later, someone will
step up, and engine control systems will emerge from the dark ages.
Jerry Reynolds
Bellaire Project
Message 2
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| Subject: | What engine are you flying |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "flyseaplane" <flyseaplane@netzero.net>
Lisa Marie,
Which Glasair are you building? What size powerplant does Glasair
recommend for your aircraft? 180HP Lycoming 360?
Dave Blanton in Kansas has a Ford 3.8 liter (230 cu in)V6 conversion,
but it probably isn't powerful enough for your Glasair ( I think about 150
HP).
Belted Air Power in Nevada has Buick 215 cu.in. (all aluminum V8)
reduction drive parts. This engine is also around 150 HP, so might not be
enough for you.
There are some guys using Aluminum Chevy V6 engines and engine parts
from the BUSCH "Grand National" series of NASCAR racing - - these engines
are very stout! There is a book, I think called "Alternative Engines" that
sounds like it might be of interest to you. Most of the factory V6's are
just too heavy for the power they put out (don't forget to add the weight of
coolant when penciling initial weight & balance figures)
Good Luck,
Linc
> I have been very interested in the large Chevy V6, for my Glasair. What
are you
> flying or planning on flying, in your plane?
>
> Lisa Marie
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: What engine are you flying |
--> Engines-List message posted by: n1lm <n1lm@concentric.net>
My plane is a Glasair I. I have all the information that Dave Blanton put
out, some years ago. I have also read a couple of other books on auto
conversions.
Glasair has used 180 horse O-360s. several folks have installed 200 horse
0-360s a few have even installed 230 and 260 horse 0-540s.
The 200 horse IO-360, would really be nice, but they are expensive these
days. I don't think the Blanton Ford 230, is enough engine. Belted Air Power
has a conversion for the GM V6 and they don't spin it a 5 grand all day. So I
have been considering that combination. The O-540 would be cool but will use a
lot of gas. It should be fairly easy to find at a decent price.
Lisa Marie
flyseaplane wrote:
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "flyseaplane" <flyseaplane@netzero.net>
>
> Lisa Marie,
>
> Which Glasair are you building? What size powerplant does Glasair
> recommend for your aircraft? 180HP Lycoming 360?
> Dave Blanton in Kansas has a Ford 3.8 liter (230 cu in)V6 conversion,
> but it probably isn't powerful enough for your Glasair ( I think about 150
> HP).
> Belted Air Power in Nevada has Buick 215 cu.in. (all aluminum V8)
> reduction drive parts. This engine is also around 150 HP, so might not be
> enough for you.
> There are some guys using Aluminum Chevy V6 engines and engine parts
> from the BUSCH "Grand National" series of NASCAR racing - - these engines
> are very stout! There is a book, I think called "Alternative Engines" that
> sounds like it might be of interest to you. Most of the factory V6's are
> just too heavy for the power they put out (don't forget to add the weight of
> coolant when penciling initial weight & balance figures)
>
> Good Luck,
> Linc
>
> > I have been very interested in the large Chevy V6, for my Glasair. What
> are you
> > flying or planning on flying, in your plane?
> >
> > Lisa Marie
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: What engine are you flying |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Justin" <jmw116@socal.rr.com>
I would go for the Belted Air CHEVY engine. There is no way I would ever
consiter putting a ford engine in my airplane with my life at risk.
Chevy makes great crate engines that are I-4 or I-5 putting out around
200HP at a mid RPM of 5500. Belted air is still the best or that subaru is
doing great too.
Justin
----- Original Message -----
From: "n1lm" <n1lm@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Engines-List: What engine are you flying
> --> Engines-List message posted by: n1lm <n1lm@concentric.net>
>
> My plane is a Glasair I. I have all the information that Dave Blanton
put
> out, some years ago. I have also read a couple of other books on auto
> conversions.
> Glasair has used 180 horse O-360s. several folks have installed 200
horse
> 0-360s a few have even installed 230 and 260 horse 0-540s.
> The 200 horse IO-360, would really be nice, but they are expensive
these
> days. I don't think the Blanton Ford 230, is enough engine. Belted Air
Power
> has a conversion for the GM V6 and they don't spin it a 5 grand all day.
So I
> have been considering that combination. The O-540 would be cool but will
use a
> lot of gas. It should be fairly easy to find at a decent price.
>
> Lisa Marie
>
> flyseaplane wrote:
>
> > --> Engines-List message posted by: "flyseaplane"
<flyseaplane@netzero.net>
> >
> > Lisa Marie,
> >
> > Which Glasair are you building? What size powerplant does Glasair
> > recommend for your aircraft? 180HP Lycoming 360?
> > Dave Blanton in Kansas has a Ford 3.8 liter (230 cu in)V6
conversion,
> > but it probably isn't powerful enough for your Glasair ( I think about
150
> > HP).
> > Belted Air Power in Nevada has Buick 215 cu.in. (all aluminum V8)
> > reduction drive parts. This engine is also around 150 HP, so might not
be
> > enough for you.
> > There are some guys using Aluminum Chevy V6 engines and engine
parts
> > from the BUSCH "Grand National" series of NASCAR racing - - these
engines
> > are very stout! There is a book, I think called "Alternative Engines"
that
> > sounds like it might be of interest to you. Most of the factory V6's are
> > just too heavy for the power they put out (don't forget to add the
weight of
> > coolant when penciling initial weight & balance figures)
> >
> > Good Luck,
> > Linc
> >
> > > I have been very interested in the large Chevy V6, for my Glasair.
What
> > are you
> > > flying or planning on flying, in your plane?
> > >
> > > Lisa Marie
> >
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: What engine are you flying |
--> Engines-List message posted by: n1lm <n1lm@concentric.net>
Justin,
Why would you not use a Ford engine? If they made a bigger V6 I would go for
it, because I know Ford engines and particularly I know Ford electronics.
Lisa Marie
Justin wrote:
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Justin" <jmw116@socal.rr.com>
>
> I would go for the Belted Air CHEVY engine. There is no way I would ever
> consiter putting a ford engine in my airplane with my life at risk.
>
> Chevy makes great crate engines that are I-4 or I-5 putting out around
> 200HP at a mid RPM of 5500. Belted air is still the best or that subaru is
> doing great too.
>
> Justin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "n1lm" <n1lm@concentric.net>
> To: <engines-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Engines-List: What engine are you flying
>
> > --> Engines-List message posted by: n1lm <n1lm@concentric.net>
> >
> > My plane is a Glasair I. I have all the information that Dave Blanton
> put
> > out, some years ago. I have also read a couple of other books on auto
> > conversions.
> > Glasair has used 180 horse O-360s. several folks have installed 200
> horse
> > 0-360s a few have even installed 230 and 260 horse 0-540s.
> > The 200 horse IO-360, would really be nice, but they are expensive
> these
> > days. I don't think the Blanton Ford 230, is enough engine. Belted Air
> Power
> > has a conversion for the GM V6 and they don't spin it a 5 grand all day.
> So I
> > have been considering that combination. The O-540 would be cool but will
> use a
> > lot of gas. It should be fairly easy to find at a decent price.
> >
> > Lisa Marie
> >
> > flyseaplane wrote:
> >
> > > --> Engines-List message posted by: "flyseaplane"
> <flyseaplane@netzero.net>
> > >
> > > Lisa Marie,
> > >
> > > Which Glasair are you building? What size powerplant does Glasair
> > > recommend for your aircraft? 180HP Lycoming 360?
> > > Dave Blanton in Kansas has a Ford 3.8 liter (230 cu in)V6
> conversion,
> > > but it probably isn't powerful enough for your Glasair ( I think about
> 150
> > > HP).
> > > Belted Air Power in Nevada has Buick 215 cu.in. (all aluminum V8)
> > > reduction drive parts. This engine is also around 150 HP, so might not
> be
> > > enough for you.
> > > There are some guys using Aluminum Chevy V6 engines and engine
> parts
> > > from the BUSCH "Grand National" series of NASCAR racing - - these
> engines
> > > are very stout! There is a book, I think called "Alternative Engines"
> that
> > > sounds like it might be of interest to you. Most of the factory V6's are
> > > just too heavy for the power they put out (don't forget to add the
> weight of
> > > coolant when penciling initial weight & balance figures)
> > >
> > > Good Luck,
> > > Linc
> > >
> > > > I have been very interested in the large Chevy V6, for my Glasair.
> What
> > > are you
> > > > flying or planning on flying, in your plane?
> > > >
> > > > Lisa Marie
> > >
> >
> >
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: What engine are you flying |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Justin" <jmw116@socal.rr.com>
I have had bad luck with ford engines. I have but dont drive anymore a 1969
F-100 with a 302 V8 in it. It has thrown 2 oil pumps in less than 5,000
miles. Ford says they are "famous for it" yet nothing on fixing the problem.
Also this is on the ford car not the engine it self. A buddy of mine has
a 2000 Ford Mustang, GT (V8) and just one day while we were screwing around
on the highway doing about 90 or so, his brake calapier desides to fall off
causeing alot of damage and almost a big accident.
Lastly a friend of mine has a 1994 Ranger. In that sucker it sports the
4.0 V-6 and has LOTS of fuel injected related problems.
A previous ford fan now a bowtie boy. Building a corvair 190 cubic
inches, 120HP to fly my KR2S. You may think 6cyl why only 120HP but the
corvair is not a big engine, nor a heavy one. It is using VW cyl and VW
pistons and direct drive. Put a gear box and im sure it will do 160HP for
you.
Justin
----- Original Message -----
From: "n1lm" <n1lm@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Engines-List: What engine are you flying
> --> Engines-List message posted by: n1lm <n1lm@concentric.net>
>
> Justin,
> Why would you not use a Ford engine? If they made a bigger V6 I would
go for
> it, because I know Ford engines and particularly I know Ford electronics.
>
> Lisa Marie
>
> Justin wrote:
>
> > --> Engines-List message posted by: "Justin" <jmw116@socal.rr.com>
> >
> > I would go for the Belted Air CHEVY engine. There is no way I would ever
> > consiter putting a ford engine in my airplane with my life at risk.
> >
> > Chevy makes great crate engines that are I-4 or I-5 putting out
around
> > 200HP at a mid RPM of 5500. Belted air is still the best or that subaru
is
> > doing great too.
> >
> > Justin
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "n1lm" <n1lm@concentric.net>
> > To: <engines-list@matronics.com>
> > Subject: Re: Engines-List: What engine are you flying
> >
> > > --> Engines-List message posted by: n1lm <n1lm@concentric.net>
> > >
> > > My plane is a Glasair I. I have all the information that Dave
Blanton
> > put
> > > out, some years ago. I have also read a couple of other books on auto
> > > conversions.
> > > Glasair has used 180 horse O-360s. several folks have installed
200
> > horse
> > > 0-360s a few have even installed 230 and 260 horse 0-540s.
> > > The 200 horse IO-360, would really be nice, but they are expensive
> > these
> > > days. I don't think the Blanton Ford 230, is enough engine. Belted
Air
> > Power
> > > has a conversion for the GM V6 and they don't spin it a 5 grand all
day.
> > So I
> > > have been considering that combination. The O-540 would be cool but
will
> > use a
> > > lot of gas. It should be fairly easy to find at a decent price.
> > >
> > > Lisa Marie
> > >
> > > flyseaplane wrote:
> > >
> > > > --> Engines-List message posted by: "flyseaplane"
> > <flyseaplane@netzero.net>
> > > >
> > > > Lisa Marie,
> > > >
> > > > Which Glasair are you building? What size powerplant does
Glasair
> > > > recommend for your aircraft? 180HP Lycoming 360?
> > > > Dave Blanton in Kansas has a Ford 3.8 liter (230 cu in)V6
> > conversion,
> > > > but it probably isn't powerful enough for your Glasair ( I think
about
> > 150
> > > > HP).
> > > > Belted Air Power in Nevada has Buick 215 cu.in. (all aluminum
V8)
> > > > reduction drive parts. This engine is also around 150 HP, so might
not
> > be
> > > > enough for you.
> > > > There are some guys using Aluminum Chevy V6 engines and engine
> > parts
> > > > from the BUSCH "Grand National" series of NASCAR racing - - these
> > engines
> > > > are very stout! There is a book, I think called "Alternative
Engines"
> > that
> > > > sounds like it might be of interest to you. Most of the factory V6's
are
> > > > just too heavy for the power they put out (don't forget to add the
> > weight of
> > > > coolant when penciling initial weight & balance figures)
> > > >
> > > > Good Luck,
> > > > Linc
> > > >
> > > > > I have been very interested in the large Chevy V6, for my Glasair.
> > What
> > > > are you
> > > > > flying or planning on flying, in your plane?
> > > > >
> > > > > Lisa Marie
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: What engine are you flying |
--> Engines-List message posted by: n1lm <n1lm@concentric.net>
I guess I am just the opposite. I have four vehicles with Ford engines. I have
2
Mustangs. One has an in line 6, with over 300K miles. I replaced the heads. The
other Mustang I am building up. Full road race suspension, 4 wheel disk brakes.
351 engine with twin turboes. The other is a Ford station wagon with the 3.8 V6
and a Toyota with a Mustang 5.0 with 5 speed and complete Ford Mustang EFI. My
only reason for considering a Chevy V6 engine is to gain cubic inches in a small
space. I don't know the GM electronics yet. I have had all good luck with Ford
products, including Model As and Model Ts.
Justin wrote:
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Justin" <jmw116@socal.rr.com>
>
> I have had bad luck with ford engines. I have but dont drive anymore a 1969
> F-100 with a 302 V8 in it. It has thrown 2 oil pumps in less than 5,000
> m
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