Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:22 AM - Re: Renesis Rotary Power (Cy Galley)
2. 07:56 AM - Re: Renesis Rotary Power (Healy, Joseph)
3. 08:05 AM - Re: Renesis Rotary Power - revised (Cy Galley)
4. 08:14 AM - Re: Renesis Rotary Power (Tedd McHenry)
5. 08:16 AM - Re: Renesis Rotary Power (Tedd McHenry)
6. 08:32 AM - Mick Duckt N7XR (Ed Anderson)
7. 08:57 AM - Re: Renesis Rotary Power - revised (Ed Anderson)
8. 09:20 AM - Re: Renesis Rotary Power (Scott Bilinski)
9. 01:05 PM - Re: Renesis Rotary Power (John Burns)
10. 02:51 PM - Re: Duct Fans (Richard Swiderski)
11. 03:24 PM - Re: Knock Sensors, 3rd Try (Richard Swiderski)
12. 03:55 PM - 350-400HP auto engine??? (Nielsenbe@aol.com)
13. 04:29 PM - Re: 350-400HP auto engine??? ()
14. 04:38 PM - Re: 350-400HP auto engine??? (Ed Anderson)
15. 04:45 PM - Re: 350-400HP auto engine??? (James R. Cunningham)
16. 04:51 PM - Re: 350-400HP auto engine??? (Nielsenbe@aol.com)
17. 04:57 PM - Re: 350-400HP auto engine??? (Nielsenbe@aol.com)
18. 07:22 PM - Re: 350-400HP auto engine/PSRU ??? (Nielsenbe@aol.com)
19. 07:55 PM - Re: 350-400HP auto engine/PSRU ??? ()
20. 10:13 PM - Re: 350-400HP auto engine/PSRU ??? (Nielsenbe@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Renesis Rotary Power |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Mazda rotary engines are very different than your Ford engine. They run very
well are a much higher rpm to generate the same horsepower. Their
displacement is much smaller than your engine but they work much like a
2-cycle engine so that by running faster and producing power every rotation
instead of every other rotation, the rotary makes up for is much smaller
rotation.
----- Original Message -----
From: "flyseaplane" <flyseaplane@netzero.net>
Subject: Engines-List: Renesis Rotary Power
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "flyseaplane"
<flyseaplane@netzero.net>
>
>
> From: "John Burns" <jgburns@comcast.net
> "Since the Mazda salesman was sitting next to me, I didn't take it above
> 7500 RPM [over 90 mph in fifth gear].
> Are You Sure???? That sounds like SUPER low gearing to me. My 5.0 liter
V-8
> Ford Ranger with 3.55 gears does 105 MPH in 3rd at 6000 RPM. Third gear!!
I
> don't have ANY idea what it will do in 5th - - - Ford Rangers DO NOT
handle
> well over 140 MPH :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Linc
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Renesis Rotary Power |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Healy, Joseph" <WJH@BRPLUSA.COM>
Is anyone looking into direct drive ducted fans with rotary engines? It
seems that the weight of the speed reduction gearbox could be saved
while getting good high speed performance.
Joe.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Renesis Rotary Power - revised |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
I revised it so that MAYBE it will make sense.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Renesis Rotary Power
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> Mazda rotary engines are very different than your Ford engine. They run
very
> well AT a much higher rpm to generate the same horsepower. Their
> displacement is much smaller than your engine. Since they work much like a
> 2-cycle engine so that by running faster and producing power every
rotation
> instead of every other rotation, the rotary makes up for BEING A much
smaller
> SIZE
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "flyseaplane" <flyseaplane@netzero.net>
> To: <engines-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Engines-List: Renesis Rotary Power
>
>
> > --> Engines-List message posted by: "flyseaplane"
> <flyseaplane@netzero.net>
> >
> >
> > From: "John Burns" <jgburns@comcast.net
> > "Since the Mazda salesman was sitting next to me, I didn't take it above
> > 7500 RPM [over 90 mph in fifth gear].
> > Are You Sure???? That sounds like SUPER low gearing to me. My 5.0 liter
> V-8
> > Ford Ranger with 3.55 gears does 105 MPH in 3rd at 6000 RPM. Third
gear!!
> I
> > don't have ANY idea what it will do in 5th - - - Ford Rangers DO NOT
> handle
> > well over 140 MPH :-)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Linc
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Renesis Rotary Power |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> Mazda rotary engines are very different than your Ford engine.
That's all well and good, but "7500 RPM [over 90 mph in fifth gear]" still
sounds odd, unless he meant "way over 90 mph." Ninety in fifth at 7500 would
mean that the absolute top speed would be only 112 mph at the 9300-RPM cut out
(fifth is the top gear). Since the magazines are estimating this car's top
speed at anywhere from 140 to 155 mph, there's obviously a mistake somewhere.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 5
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| Subject: | Renesis Rotary Power |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
On Fri, 15 Aug 2003, Healy, Joseph wrote:
> Is anyone looking into direct drive ducted fans with rotary engines?
Yes. Have a look at
http://www.bridgingworlds.com/duckt.htm
This is a Long-EZ with a ducted fan driven by a rotary. I saw this airplane at
Arlington and it looks very well done.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 6
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--> Engines-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Joe, here is an individual , Perry Mick, I know that has done exactly what
you suggested with a Long EZ ( for the reason you stated - save weight).
Interesting reading - as usually with aircraft, nothing is quite so easy or
simple as it first seems.
http://www.bridgingworlds.com/duckt.htm
Ed Anderson
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Renesis Rotary Power - revised |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
> Subject: Re: Engines-List: Renesis Rotary Power
>
>
> > --> Engines-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
> >
> > Mazda rotary engines are very different than your Ford engine. They run
> very
> > well AT a much higher rpm to generate the same horsepower. Their
> > displacement is much smaller than your engine. Since they work much like
a
> > 2-cycle engine so that by running faster and producing power every
> rotation
> > instead of every other rotation, the rotary makes up for BEING A much
> smaller
> > SIZE
The two rotor 13B is rated as 80 CID and is the equivalent (power wise) of a
2 cylinder 2 stroke engine of 80 CID or a 1600 CID 4 cylinder, 4 stroke
engine. The short block weights 190 lbs and the stock block will reliably
put out 160-180 HP, depending mainly on induction and exhaust systems. The
block measures approx 16.75" long x 15 tall by 13" wide (not counting
manifolds, oil pan, auxillary stuff, etc) - a pretty small package. With
some advanced porting (such as Bridge or Perherial porting) engines can
produce around 250-280HP (but may not have the reliability of a less
modified engine). PowerSport reports 215HP out of their Perherial ported
engine. The engine can be turbocharged to produce around 240-300HP.
The new Renesis gets it increased power without a turbocharger by higher rpm
operation, as you mentioned, lighter rotors and more precise balancing of
rotating assembly permit around 9000 rpm producing approx 250 HP without
turbo. The older engine can also reach those kind of power levels, but
requires extensive machining to lighten rotors and other modifications
(harden gears, high pressure oil pumps, etc) to get up to that rpm range
which raises the cost a hefty bit.
Our experience has shown the unmodified engine is easily capable of running
6000-6500 rpm for hours on end without stressing the engine. The engine in
the car was redline at 7500 rpm but buzzing it to 8000 was no problem. Some
modifications are recommended if you are going to have extended operation at
high rpms (above 7000 rpm). So much power being produced in such a small
package puts a premimum on removing waste heat from the block. Therefore, it
is less tolerant of an inadequate cooling system than many engines.
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Renesis Rotary Power |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
The guys who own General Atomic (the real Blues Brothers) have a 3 rotor
ducted fan plane at Ramona (RMN?) It has flown once that I know of.
At 07:50 AM 8/15/03 -0700, you wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "Healy, Joseph" <WJH@BRPLUSA.COM>
>
>Is anyone looking into direct drive ducted fans with rotary engines? It
>seems that the weight of the speed reduction gearbox could be saved
>while getting good high speed performance.
>
>Joe.
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Renesis Rotary Power |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "John Burns" <jgburns@comcast.net>
No, I'm not sure I was in 5th gear at the time, but that's what I thought at the
time. The salesman offered to loan me the car for two hours without his company.
When I road test it next time, I'll bring a friend to take notes.
John
Message 10
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--> Engines-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" <swiderski@rocketjet.net>
Hello,
About ten years ago I was about to undertake a direct drive duct fan
project as my plane had a physical limitation of a 50" prop diameter. I did
a lot reading/research & came to the conclusion that a duct fan is a
disadvantage in almost all aircraft scenarios. 1) The weight of the
assembly generally offsets any gains of eliminating a redrive. 2) At the
stage of developement ten years ago, all duct fans began to have serious
drag issues above the speed of 90mph. 3) The gain in thrust offered by a
direct drive duct fan configuration is very small compared the increase
obtained by just going to the larger disk area of a conventional prop.
Thrust is proportional to disk area, and with two props of equal area, the
ducted one will produce significantly more thrust. But the secret to this
whole issue is that since the area of a disk increases logrithmically with
diameter, & since thrust is proportional to area, the huge increase in
thrust/area of a larger diameter prop greatly exceeds the gain achieved by
ducting the smaller disk. That is why helicopters have large disk areas &
why you will probably never see a ducted fan in place of a rotor. The only
scenario I can concieve using a duct in an aircraft is on the slow moving
paraplane where they need to invest weight to provide a prop shield anyway &
it would still need to be with a reduction drive.
I ended up moving my engine away from the fuselage tube & extending the
length of the main gear, thereby increasing my disk diameter by 10" or the
area by 44%. The 30% increase in thrust I achieved far exceeded anything I
could of achieved with the smaller direct drive duct fan. Plus it was
lighter & I did not have to pay a drag penalty at higher speeds. Also, the
complexity of keeping the extremely close tolerence necessary between the
duct fan & its shroud would have challenged if not exceeded my building
skills.
Richard Swiderski
Florida
Working on a turbo 3 cylinder
Kolb SlingShot
> Joe, here is an individual , Perry Mick, I know that has done exactly what
> you suggested with a Long EZ ( for the reason you stated - save weight).
> Interesting reading - as usually with aircraft, nothing is quite so easy
or
> simple as it first seems.
>
> http://www.bridgingworlds.com/duckt.htm
>
> Ed Anderson
> eanderson@carolina.rr.com
> RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Knock Sensors, 3rd Try |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Richard Swiderski" <swiderski@rocketjet.net>
Hello,
After 3 weeks I am finially recieving mail from the Engines-List. I
twice attempted a post but was refused, even though I was listed as a
member. So I apoligize if this is a repeat.
I am building a turbo version of the 3 cyl, 1 liter Geo Metro engine.
I am projecting a 175 lb. wet weight with redrive, radiator & intercooler.
It is rated at 107ft-lb torque @ 3600rpm & the cuve remains flat to about
5800. It will have between 85-100hp depending on boost (8.6 lbs. max.) It is
distributorless, port injected & uses Tracy Crook's afternmarket computer
for ignition & fuel control. I will be mapping the ignition & fuel curves
soon & I am looking for a panel mountable knock sensor that visually shows
the level of detonation with a series of LED's.
Anyone know of a resource for one? If not, how about a set of plans for
one?
If you're interested about the engine, you can check it out at
http://www.geocities.com/ib2polish/
Go to "My Kolb" then "Engine"
Thanks,
Richard Swiderski
Kolb SlingShot
Message 12
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| Subject: | 350-400HP auto engine??? |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Nielsenbe@aol.com
I am just looking for options/opinions on 350-400HP auto engines. The best
deal to me so far is the GM LS1. It's all aluminum/composite, fuel injected and
computer controlled for $7k. Is there any other options I should check out?
Brad
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: 350-400HP auto engine??? |
--> Engines-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
Hi Brad,
The LS1 sounds like a great pick. Do you happen to know its weight? Also,
installed weight with cooling? Were you thinking of using a BAP belt drive?
http://www.beltedair.com/
Ned
----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
Subject: Engines-List: 350-400HP auto engine???
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Nielsenbe@aol.com
>
> I am just looking for options/opinions on 350-400HP auto engines. The best
> deal to me so far is the GM LS1. It's all aluminum/composite, fuel
injected and
> computer controlled for $7k. Is there any other options I should check
out?
>
> Brad
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: 350-400HP auto engine??? |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Nielsenbe@aol.com
>
> I am just looking for options/opinions on 350-400HP auto engines. The best
> deal to me so far is the GM LS1. It's all aluminum/composite, fuel
injected and
> computer controlled for $7k. Is there any other options I should check
out?
>
> Brad
>
Brad, you might want to check out the Mazda 3 rotor 20B engine. It gets
between 250 and 300 HP naturally aspired and 350-400 with a turbocharger is
certainly doable. A few are flying including one in an Lancair ES. If
interested, there are a number of web sites that can provide more
information on the 20B and I have a couple of Rotary e mail lists with guys
who are building aircraft projects with 20B 3 rotors.
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: 350-400HP auto engine??? |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "James R. Cunningham" <jrccea@bellsouth.net>
Try PAW for good prices on all types of engine and crank combinations.
Nielsenbe@aol.com wrote:
>
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Nielsenbe@aol.com
>
> I am just looking for options/opinions on 350-400HP auto engines. The best
> deal to me so far is the GM LS1. It's all aluminum/composite, fuel injected and
> computer controlled for $7k. Is there any other options I should check out?
>
> Brad
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: 350-400HP auto engine??? |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Nielsenbe@aol.com
I had not found the belt drive PSRU so I just sent them an email asking if it
would handle the power and how much they cost. I have checked a couple other
supplier of geared units. I can't find the links right now but I will get them
posted later. The cost for them was almost as much as the engine. I am just
starting on the tail kit for my plane so I have a while to figure out what
exactly I will be using. The bonus is there are a few other people doing the LS1
install in the same plane so they will have alot of problems worked out and I
will be lazy and thankfull and use them as a resource of information.
Brad
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: 350-400HP auto engine??? |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Nielsenbe@aol.com
I won't be changing any of the components internal to the engine. That is one
thing I really like about the LS1 option. It's complete with computer and
everything. It's also rated at the needed HP without adding after market upgrades
and possibly compromising the durability.
Brad
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: 350-400HP auto engine/PSRU ??? |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Nielsenbe@aol.com
PSRU's that I have found
<A HREF="http://northwest-aero.com/?page=shop/index">http://northwest-aero.com/?page=shop/index
<A HREF="http://www.epi-eng.com/GBX_TOC.htm">http://www.epi-eng.com/GBX_TOC.htm
These seem to be real nice units. I am not sure what offset height will be
acceptable for my plane though.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: 350-400HP auto engine/PSRU ??? |
--> Engines-List message posted by: <315@cox.net>
Brad,
I've been looking for an answer to my ? about the LS1 Gen III weight and I
think I have found the answer at the following link ; 400lbs. Is that what
you have for its weight?
http://www.advanceadapters.com/acrobat/enginfo.pdf
----- Original Message -----
From: <Nielsenbe@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Engines-List: 350-400HP auto engine/PSRU ???
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Nielsenbe@aol.com
>
> PSRU's that I have found
>
> <A
HREF="http://northwest-aero.com/?page=shop/index">http://northwest-aero.com/
?page=shop/index
> <A
HREF="http://www.epi-eng.com/GBX_TOC.htm">http://www.epi-eng.com/GBX_TOC.htm
>
> These seem to be real nice units. I am not sure what offset height will be
> acceptable for my plane though.
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: 350-400HP auto engine/PSRU ??? |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Nielsenbe@aol.com
I know it's real close to that. It's hard to get accurate numbers. It's all
about what you include or chose as accessories. There are alot of light weight
starters and alternators or larger/smaller oil pans, what psru and bla bla
bla. So are you installing a LS1? What plane? I am building a murphy moose. I am
not sure what's going to happen for an engine mount. What are you going to do
for that? I have an uncle that can tig weld but I am not sure of the accuracy
requirement. I have seen offsets like 1.5 degrees so building to that
tolerance jigs are pretty much needed.
Brad
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