Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:58 AM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (James R. Cunningham)
2. 05:56 AM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (Scott Bilinski)
3. 06:28 AM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (Archie)
4. 07:37 AM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (George Bass)
5. 08:09 AM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (Trampas)
6. 09:07 AM - Oil/Total Seal Rings (Gene Smith)
7. 09:51 AM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (Freddie Freeloader)
8. 10:16 AM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (Perry M. Chappano)
9. 10:51 AM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (Freddie Freeloader)
10. 11:54 AM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (Perry M. Chappano)
11. 02:58 PM - Total seal rings (Archie)
12. 03:29 PM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (Justin)
13. 05:12 PM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (Archie)
14. 06:36 PM - Lead and exhaust valves (flyseaplane)
15. 06:52 PM - Re: Lead and exhaust valves (Archie)
16. 07:00 PM - Re: Lead and exhaust valves (flyseaplane)
17. 07:14 PM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (Kent Ashton)
18. 07:14 PM - Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions (Kent Ashton)
19. 07:16 PM - Re: Lead and exhaust valves (Charlie & Tupper England)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "James R. Cunningham" <jrccea@bellsouth.net>
I use it in a J-3, at the recommendation of the Cub Club. Prefer it in
the gas over MMO simply because it seems to stay in suspension better.
There is never any proof that anything like this works. The main
difference that we notice is that the valves immediately quit making the
typical small Continental clatter during idle when we use the additive
and start doing it again when we stop. For me, its worth it just to
eliminate the clanking sound. Several other cub owners in the
neighborhood have noticed the difference in sound at idle and asked
about it. Of course, that doesn't mean that there is any real
difference in lubing, and the quieter engine may be just coincidence.
All the best,
Jim
flyseaplane wrote:
> James, do you have any proof that this works??
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Lead does not lube the valves. Read this:
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182149-1.html
At 12:12 AM 8/29/03 -0500, you wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "flyseaplane" <flyseaplane@netzero.net>
>
>From: "James R. Cunningham" <jrccea@bellsouth.net>
>
>"You might also consider putting a 100 capsule aspirin tablet bottle full
>(remove the aspirin first) of Pennsoil 2 cycle ashless synthetic outboard
>motor oil in each 5 to 6 gallons of fuel to help the valves."
>++++++++++++++
>James, do you have any proof that this works??
>I have heard of almost EVERYTHING that people swear works.
>2-cycle oil, Auto trans fluid, Marvel Mystery oil, etc. etc. etc. etc.
>None of these lubricate at the temperatures that the exhaust seats see. They
>just turn to carbon at high temps, which doesn't help lubricate the valves
>at all. Tetraethyl lead is the only thing I have heard of that actually
>works. I know the "lead substitutes" that you buy at wal-mart don't work,
>and I have the burned valves to prove it.
>OH yeah, some of you all are going to say "but it is ashless". Yeah, put
>some ashless oil in a spoon and hold it over a blowtorch. It still turns to
>carbon.
>
>take care all,
>Linc
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" <archie97@earthlink.net>
"Ashless Dispersant" oil is just that.
It does not meant it will burn ashless.
It is used largely due to the fact that conventional
piston aircraft engines have rings that do not seal
as well as modern automotive engines, and this "ash:"
contaminates the oil.
To keep these contaminants from plugging small orifices,
the dispersants in the oil keep these particles from clinging
adhesively and cohesively.
I have several aircraft engines running on automotive oil
with no problems after three years.
The solution is to seal the combustion chamber from the
oil system.
No ash= (No dispersant needed+ Less expensive oil+Less frequent
oil changes)= Money saved.
Will not go into details here for obvious reasons, but anyone who
has partaken of my OSH seminars, knows it is not rocket science,
just common sense.
If automotive engines progressed at the same rate as
general aviation piston engines, we would still be driving
model "T"'s.
Archie
Archie's Racing Service
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "George Bass" <George_Bass_0@hotmail.com>
This thread seems to be shouting that it may be
an excellent time to mention a company in the
Phoenix, Arizona area, who's product is called
"TOTAL SEAL RINGS".
I've been told (I have no personal experience)
that these products do a far better job of keeping
the combustion gases, and heat, in the chamber
and the oil seperated and far less contamninated
than conventional rings.
Also stated, was that these rings often add as much
as 1 horsepower per cylinder, to an existing engine.
Sure sounds good. I'm planning on trying them.
For more info, look on the web at:
http://www.totalseal.com/totalseal3.html
George
---
Message 5
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| Subject: | Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
I personally agree with Archie!
I am new to aircraft engines, but have worked on cars for years and
specialized in electronic engine controls. When I saw a brand new
aircraft engine with a carburetor and magnetos on it I about died
laughing. When I saw the aircraft version of fuel injection, aka the
mechanical fuel injection systems, I thought it was a joke! I keep
wondering why aircrafts are so far behind?
Then I remember cars of the early 80's with first version of electronic
computer controls. In my opinion GM did two things in the 80's, first
was to make the US think diesel engines were terrible, the second was to
make the US think electronic engine controls were unreliable. That was
20 years ago and people still believe it, even though it is not reality!
Think about the cars today with electronic engine controls, I know that
I fully expect to get 100k miles from a new car with out a single engine
related problem.
Trampas
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Archie
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" <archie97@earthlink.net>
"Ashless Dispersant" oil is just that.
It does not meant it will burn ashless.
It is used largely due to the fact that conventional
piston aircraft engines have rings that do not seal
as well as modern automotive engines, and this "ash:"
contaminates the oil.
To keep these contaminants from plugging small orifices,
the dispersants in the oil keep these particles from clinging
adhesively and cohesively.
I have several aircraft engines running on automotive oil
with no problems after three years.
The solution is to seal the combustion chamber from the
oil system.
No ash= (No dispersant needed+ Less expensive oil+Less frequent
oil changes)= Money saved.
Will not go into details here for obvious reasons, but anyone who
has partaken of my OSH seminars, knows it is not rocket science,
just common sense.
If automotive engines progressed at the same rate as
general aviation piston engines, we would still be driving
model "T"'s.
Archie
Archie's Racing Service
Message 6
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| Subject: | Oil/Total Seal Rings |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Gene Smith" <esmith6@satx.rr.com>
Friends..........Oil is the cheapest thing you can buy for any engine..........Change
it often..........I drain mine when it starts turning dark and that is
usually a little either side of 25 hours...I am partial to Mobil-1 100% synthetic
oil in every thing I have!......I had a Cessna 150 that I ran to 2200 hours,
and was still passing the compression checks...I overhauled it simply because
I worried about it and friends were always on my "hiney" about it......the
good old psychology trick!
George Bass brought up a good subject about "Total Seal Rings." I called them,
and at that time they requested that I send in my pistons so they could install
the rings..........Maybe that procedure has changed........................CHEERS!!!!
Gene Smith
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Freddie Freeloader <lists@stevet.net>
Hello George,
Friday, August 29, 2003, 7:35:49 AM, you wrote:
GB> This thread seems to be shouting that it may be
GB> an excellent time to mention a company in the
GB> Phoenix, Arizona area, who's product is called
GB> "TOTAL SEAL RINGS".
GB> I've been told (I have no personal experience)
GB> that these products do a far better job of keeping
GB> the combustion gases, and heat, in the chamber
GB> and the oil seperated and far less contamninated
GB> than conventional rings.
GB> Also stated, was that these rings often add as much
GB> as 1 horsepower per cylinder, to an existing engine.
GB> Sure sounds good. I'm planning on trying them.
GB> For more info, look on the web at:
GB> http://www.totalseal.com/totalseal3.html
GB> George
Does anyone have any experience using these ring sets on a Lycoming?
--
Best regards,
Freddie mailto:lists@stevet.net
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Perry M. Chappano" <polestar@prodigy.net>
only approved for use on TIO 520 / IO 520
Matt Hartford
Total Seal Engineering
800-874-2753GB> George
>
> Does anyone have any experience using these ring sets on a Lycoming?
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Freddie
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Freddie Freeloader <lists@stevet.net>
Hello Perry,
Friday, August 29, 2003, 10:16:52 AM, you wrote:
PMC> only approved for use on TIO 520 / IO 520
PMC> Matt Hartford
PMC> Total Seal Engineering
???
The homebuilder approves the use. What do you mean "approved for
use?" Is this in a certificated application? If so, it does not
apply to the homebuilder market unless the builder is looking for a
certificated engine.
--
Best regards,
Freddie mailto:lists@stevet.net
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Perry M. Chappano" <polestar@prodigy.net>
precisely
Freddie Freeloader wrote:
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Freddie Freeloader <lists@stevet.net>
>
> Hello Perry,
>
> Friday, August 29, 2003, 10:16:52 AM, you wrote:
>
> PMC> only approved for use on TIO 520 / IO 520
>
> PMC> Matt Hartford
> PMC> Total Seal Engineering
>
> ???
>
> The homebuilder approves the use. What do you mean "approved for
> use?" Is this in a certificated application? If so, it does not
> apply to the homebuilder market unless the builder is looking for a
> certificated engine.
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Freddie mailto:lists@stevet.net
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Total seal rings |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" <archie97@earthlink.net>
There are several versions of the "gapless rings" available.
Joe Moriarty, the owner of Total Seal, in Phoenix, is originally
from my area, and had a shop here.
Due to the varied nature of materials and uses, we have used
his "second ring" on many of our applications.
This is largely due to the fact that we use finely finished cylinder
walls where no cross-hatching is visible.
Our engines do not have time for break-in, and therefore must
be prepared in such a manner that when they fire up, they are
race ready, with full seating occurring in less than five minutes.
Have applied this method to AC engines, and noticed a slight
elevation in cyl temp, but by the time the ac was ready for
departure, temp was down indicating rings had seated.
Archie
Archie's Racing Service
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Justin" <jmw116@socal.rr.com>
Could a car engine run on airplane ashless oil? I dont see any difference
but proubly a cleaner running engine? My engine is starting to burn oil and
I wanted to try running something different.
Justin
N116JW
www.geocities.com/attngrabber14/Home
----- Original Message -----
From: "Archie" <archie97@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" <archie97@earthlink.net>
>
> "Ashless Dispersant" oil is just that.
> It does not meant it will burn ashless.
>
> It is used largely due to the fact that conventional
> piston aircraft engines have rings that do not seal
> as well as modern automotive engines, and this "ash:"
> contaminates the oil.
> To keep these contaminants from plugging small orifices,
> the dispersants in the oil keep these particles from clinging
> adhesively and cohesively.
>
> I have several aircraft engines running on automotive oil
> with no problems after three years.
> The solution is to seal the combustion chamber from the
> oil system.
> No ash= (No dispersant needed+ Less expensive oil+Less frequent
> oil changes)= Money saved.
> Will not go into details here for obvious reasons, but anyone who
> has partaken of my OSH seminars, knows it is not rocket science,
> just common sense.
>
> If automotive engines progressed at the same rate as
> general aviation piston engines, we would still be driving
> model "T"'s.
> Archie
> Archie's Racing Service
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" <archie97@earthlink.net>
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Justin" <jmw116@socal.rr.com>
>
> Could a car engine run on airplane ashless oil? I dont see any difference
> but proubly a cleaner running engine? My engine is starting to burn oil
and
> I wanted to try running something different.
>
> Justin
> N116JW
As indicated previously, Why?
Autos today go thousands of miles while the oil stays clean.
The best brands of automotive oil are still a fraction of
the price of aviation.
Remember, oil never wears out, it just becomes contaminated.
Archie
Message 14
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| Subject: | Lead and exhaust valves |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "flyseaplane" <flyseaplane@netzero.net>
Scott, go back and read that article. In the first paragraph, John Deakin
states:
"I do have one report that high-output marine engines had some valve
problems when switched from mogas to unleaded fuels, but that same report
said that hardened valve seats took care of that problem."
He goes on to say:
"Lead does NOT prevent (or cause) "valve recession."
I disagree with that.
I was there when "regular" gas disappeared, and I saw several vehicles
without hardened seats start running like crap in no time - - - and ALL at
the SAME time (running time wise). The only change was unleaded gas. Pull
the heads, and the seats are all gone.
So, my question is this - - - - - - If lead doesn't protect the valves and
seats, why did the marine engines mentioned in Deakin's article have a
problem with the valve seats once the lead was taken away??
My Lycoming O-290-D doesn't have hardened seats. I don't run straight auto
gas, out of fear that the exhaust seats will diappear, just like in my
pre-70's auto engines. If anyone comes up with a sure-fire way to fix the
seat recession problem with unleaded gas, let me know!!
Take care all.
Linc
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Lead and exhaust valves |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" <archie97@earthlink.net>
Consider the engines running on Propane or Natural gas.
Ever wonder what they use?
I have repaired a few, and they have hard seats and guides.
Some use a bronze alloy guide.
A few use a stellite-faced valve.
The ones I worked on were industrial applications.
Do not recall the number of hours used.
Archie
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Lead and exhaust valves |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "flyseaplane" <flyseaplane@netzero.net>
Archie wrote: "I have repaired a few, and they have hard seats and guides.
Some use a bronze alloy guide. A few use a stellite-faced valve."
++++++++
Archie, those are great solutions, but I cringe at the thought of tearing
down my Lycoming to install hardened seats (which don't even exist for my
engine) and stellite faced valves (already in there? I don't know for
sure....)
I think I could make the valves and seats in my Lycoming "unleaded
friendly", but at what cost, especially since no one makes hardened seats
for the O-290-D - - - Or for ANY Lycoming??
Linc
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Kent Ashton <kjashton@vnet.net>
The usual problem is fuel, that is, not enough fuel flow, blocked fuel
lines, etc. Be very careful to insure adequate fuel flow and run enough
fuel through each tank to make sure no debris clogged the line. I just ran
my Aerosport engine/dual lightspeed igns for a few minutes to check it and
took off.
The only problem I had was idle adjustment on the Ellison TBI. Took a few
flights to get it adjusted
As for the engine itself, I agree with Dick Rutan, who says the engine will
always tell you before it stops working. I wouldn't worry a bit about the
engine itself. Aerosport has a great reputation.
--Kent
> From: Don.Alexander@AstenJohnson.com
> 6) Engine break-in- Aerosport will test-run the engine on a stand long
> enough to make sure that everything is ok.
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Stump the Stars- RV-8 Engine Questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Kent Ashton <kjashton@vnet.net>
You ought to take a look at lightspeed Engineering's electronic ignitions
(Klaus Savier) and Ellison Fluid Systems trottle body injectors (TBIs),
really just a carburator. They aren't as sophistocated as integrated auto
systems but particularly the Lightspeed is worlds better than standard mags.
You can really lean that engine out with Klaus' ignition. I'm running both.
--Kent Ashton
> From: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
> I am new to aircraft engines, but have worked on cars for years and
> specialized in electronic engine controls. When I saw a brand new
> aircraft engine with a carburetor and magnetos on it I about died
> laughing.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Lead and exhaust valves |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland@netdoor.com>
flyseaplane wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "flyseaplane" <flyseaplane@netzero.net>
>
>
>Scott, go back and read that article. In the first paragraph, John Deakin
>states:
>
>"I do have one report that high-output marine engines had some valve
>problems when switched from mogas to unleaded fuels, but that same report
>said that hardened valve seats took care of that problem."
>
>He goes on to say:
>"Lead does NOT prevent (or cause) "valve recession."
>
>I disagree with that.
>I was there when "regular" gas disappeared, and I saw several vehicles
>without hardened seats start running like crap in no time - - - and ALL at
>the SAME time (running time wise). The only change was unleaded gas. Pull
>the heads, and the seats are all gone.
>
>So, my question is this - - - - - - If lead doesn't protect the valves and
>seats, why did the marine engines mentioned in Deakin's article have a
>problem with the valve seats once the lead was taken away??
>
> My Lycoming O-290-D doesn't have hardened seats. I don't run straight auto
>gas, out of fear that the exhaust seats will diappear, just like in my
>pre-70's auto engines. If anyone comes up with a sure-fire way to fix the
>seat recession problem with unleaded gas, let me know!!
>
>Take care all.
>Linc
>
I was around when the change happened, as well. I can't quote chapter &
verse, but if memory serves, the connection between lead & valves wasn't
lubrication, it had more to do with a 'cushioning' effect between the
valve & seat. Does this jog anyone else's memory? (What's almost
universally forgotten are all the sticking valve problems inherent in
those old auto engines.)
Charlie
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