Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:32 AM - Re: alternative diesel engines (Dennis O'Connor)
2. 05:29 AM - Re: Diesel torsional vibrations (Gary Casey)
3. 05:57 AM - Re: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines (Johnny Johnson)
4. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: Diesel torsional vibrations (Scott Bilinski)
5. 07:03 AM - Re: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines (Scott Bilinski)
6. 07:45 AM - Re: Re: Diesel torsional vibrations (Ed Anderson)
7. 08:03 AM - Re: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines (Johnny Johnson)
8. 08:39 AM - Re: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines (Steve Thomas)
9. 09:17 AM - Re: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines PRIORITY_NO_NAME (Johnny Johnson)
10. 09:31 AM - Re: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines (Scott Bilinski)
11. 10:06 AM - Re: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines PRIORITY_NO_NAME (Steve Thomas)
12. 08:47 PM - Re: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines (Doug Ritter)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: alternative diesel engines |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Dennis O'Connor" <doconnor@chartermi.net>
The highway of aviation is littered with the wreckage of those who thought
they had a better idea... A viable product requires a lot more than just
outstanding engineering or a great idea... The fact that the Zoche's are
mumbling about 'loss of control' and usurpation of 'their
ideas' as reasons that they won't move their engine past the one-off stage,
tells me that there is either a show stopper in the engineering they won't
admit - or they are emotionally unstable/paranoid <not unheard of in
brilliant individuals> - The Wright brothers suffered from a similar
affliction... It is clear in retrospect that if they had simply sold
licensing arrangements to Curtiss and others who were intent on becoming
aircraft manufacturers, instead of fighting endless patent battles, they
would have moved aviation, and their own self interest, ahead by orders of
magnitude...
The exact reasons don't matter, really, because the end result is the same,
the Zoche's are unable or unwilling to move to production - end of story...
And conversely, even if they were willing to produce it, it doesn't mean it
will go anywhere... Look at the Dyna-Cam story... Running engines have been
on display for decades... It is actively for sale... Have you seen even one
on any vehicle, airplane, snowmobile, etc.?
Actually, the way to finally producing a certified engine is the exact
opposite... Develop an engine, sell it to the experimental folks, get cash
flow going, let them help you get the inevitable bugs out, then finally move
it into the certified arena - look at Bombadier, look at Superior..
Dyna-Cam would have been well advised to build a base of engines running in
the field by catering to the experimenters right from the start... I see
they are now hoping to do that, but I suspect their window of opportunity
has closed
denny...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon and Marge" <gcomfo@tc3net.com>
It's very sad. I really wanted one of those things.
>
> Gordon Comfort
> N363GC
Message 2
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| Subject: | RE: Diesel torsional vibrations |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
<<Hey gang, educate me and a few of my friends......If a diesel engine
compresses
the mixture and it ignites from the compression and heat, (no spark plug)
would
that cause the power pulses to be greater because of the increased
compression?..I
was wondering if any propeller (wood, composite, metal fixed and constant
speed) could stand those power pulses which surely must be stronger than our
Lycomings, and obviously more damaging.
If there is some way to smooth these out in the Diesel, why can't we use
that technology
in our gasoline engines and make them as smooth, and less destructive?>>
Your intuition is correct. The higher compression ratio produces higher and
sharper pressure pulses, leading to sharper torque pulses at the crank and
hence a more challenging propeller environment. No easy answer, but the
Zoche, being a 2-stroke, delivered more of these pulses per rev and at least
potentially could have less problems. The noise at idle is from the sharp
pressure rise caused by injecting just a little fuel and then having it
suddenly auto-ignite. The resulting pressure wave causes vibration of the
structure (noise). So why don't they have proportionally more power?
Mostly because all the oxygen is not available - the injected fuel can't mix
perfectly in the short time available. Partly because the massive structure
and reciprocating parts produce more friction losses and partly because at
the higher pressure the heat loss into the combustion chamber is higher.
Gary Casey
Message 3
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| Subject: | DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
Hi Denny,
You mentioned DynaCam... I've been intrigued by that engine for a lot of
years... the last I heard--maybe 3 or 4 years ago--there was a new group
involved that had big plans to produce engines in a skookum new facility and
they were actively looking for investors. It looked to me like they were
going about it all goofy and it was not much more than a hole into which to
pour money. You mention that they may be trying to get some engines out in
the experimental arena... that is of interest to me if it is more than just
a ploy to get investors. Any details would be appreciated.
That design has a lot of positive attributes for some applications. For
those of you that haven't been exposed to the DynaCam: 12 cyl so should be
smooth, low rpm so needs no PSRU, tons of torque (they say), torpedo-like
shape fits under most cowls easily (someone once said that the original
intent was actually to use little ones to power torpedoes), good power to
weight, etc... and for die-hard certified engine fans, a 200 hp version
supposedly was FAA (or CAA?) certified years ago by the original design
group and flew a lot of hours in a low-wing Piper of some sort. This is one
that would have a lot of us drooling if it was for real IMHO.
Johnny Johnson
Denny wrote <snipped>:
Look at the Dyna-Cam story... <snip>
Dyna-Cam would have been well advised to build a base of engines running in
the field by catering to the experimenters right from the start... I see
they are now hoping to do that, but I suspect their window of opportunity
has closed
denny...
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Diesel torsional vibrations |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
I thought the power pulse was more gentle due to the slow controlled
combustion. A diesel engine compress air only and just after TDC the
injector injects fuel to start the burn for X amount of time. This is a
slower more controlled burn than a gasoline engine which has a actual
explosion when the plug fires.......Right?
At 05:27 AM 2/6/04 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
>
><<Hey gang, educate me and a few of my friends......If a diesel engine
>compresses
>the mixture and it ignites from the compression and heat, (no spark plug)
>would
>that cause the power pulses to be greater because of the increased
>compression?..I
>was wondering if any propeller (wood, composite, metal fixed and constant
>speed) could stand those power pulses which surely must be stronger than our
>Lycomings, and obviously more damaging.
>
>If there is some way to smooth these out in the Diesel, why can't we use
>that technology
>in our gasoline engines and make them as smooth, and less destructive?>>
>
>Your intuition is correct. The higher compression ratio produces higher and
>sharper pressure pulses, leading to sharper torque pulses at the crank and
>hence a more challenging propeller environment. No easy answer, but the
>Zoche, being a 2-stroke, delivered more of these pulses per rev and at least
>potentially could have less problems. The noise at idle is from the sharp
>pressure rise caused by injecting just a little fuel and then having it
>suddenly auto-ignite. The resulting pressure wave causes vibration of the
>structure (noise). So why don't they have proportionally more power?
>Mostly because all the oxygen is not available - the injected fuel can't mix
>perfectly in the short time available. Partly because the massive structure
>and reciprocating parts produce more friction losses and partly because at
>the higher pressure the heat loss into the combustion chamber is higher.
>
>Gary Casey
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Dont they cost 60K, that will put the breaks on that engine!!!
At 08:02 AM 2/6/04 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
>
>Hi Denny,
>
>You mentioned DynaCam... I've been intrigued by that engine for a lot of
>years... the last I heard--maybe 3 or 4 years ago--there was a new group
>involved that had big plans to produce engines in a skookum new facility and
>they were actively looking for investors. It looked to me like they were
>going about it all goofy and it was not much more than a hole into which to
>pour money. You mention that they may be trying to get some engines out in
>the experimental arena... that is of interest to me if it is more than just
>a ploy to get investors. Any details would be appreciated.
>
>That design has a lot of positive attributes for some applications. For
>those of you that haven't been exposed to the DynaCam: 12 cyl so should be
>smooth, low rpm so needs no PSRU, tons of torque (they say), torpedo-like
>shape fits under most cowls easily (someone once said that the original
>intent was actually to use little ones to power torpedoes), good power to
>weight, etc... and for die-hard certified engine fans, a 200 hp version
>supposedly was FAA (or CAA?) certified years ago by the original design
>group and flew a lot of hours in a low-wing Piper of some sort. This is one
>that would have a lot of us drooling if it was for real IMHO.
>
>Johnny Johnson
>
>Denny wrote <snipped>:
>Look at the Dyna-Cam story... <snip>
>Dyna-Cam would have been well advised to build a base of engines running in
>the field by catering to the experimenters right from the start... I see
>they are now hoping to do that, but I suspect their window of opportunity
>has closed
>denny...
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Diesel torsional vibrations |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Actually, if you have an "explosion" in a gasoline engine's cylinder, its
normally referred to as "detonation" and will quickly destroy an engine.
Contrary to what one might think, the gasoline engine combustion process is
actually a "fast burn - well, actually not all that fast" combustion process
and not an explosion - even though it might commonly (if erroneously) be
referred to as an "explosion".
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: Engines-List: RE: Diesel torsional vibrations
> --> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
<bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> I thought the power pulse was more gentle due to the slow controlled
> combustion. A diesel engine compress air only and just after TDC the
> injector injects fuel to start the burn for X amount of time. This is a
> slower more controlled burn than a gasoline engine which has a actual
> explosion when the plug fires.......Right?
>
>
> At 05:27 AM 2/6/04 -0800, you wrote:
> >--> Engines-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
> >
> ><<Hey gang, educate me and a few of my friends......If a diesel engine
> >compresses
> >the mixture and it ignites from the compression and heat, (no spark plug)
> >would
> >that cause the power pulses to be greater because of the increased
> >compression?..I
> >was wondering if any propeller (wood, composite, metal fixed and constant
> >speed) could stand those power pulses which surely must be stronger than
our
> >Lycomings, and obviously more damaging.
> >
> >If there is some way to smooth these out in the Diesel, why can't we use
> >that technology
> >in our gasoline engines and make them as smooth, and less destructive?>>
> >
> >Your intuition is correct. The higher compression ratio produces higher
and
> >sharper pressure pulses, leading to sharper torque pulses at the crank
and
> >hence a more challenging propeller environment. No easy answer, but the
> >Zoche, being a 2-stroke, delivered more of these pulses per rev and at
least
> >potentially could have less problems. The noise at idle is from the
sharp
> >pressure rise caused by injecting just a little fuel and then having it
> >suddenly auto-ignite. The resulting pressure wave causes vibration of
the
> >structure (noise). So why don't they have proportionally more power?
> >Mostly because all the oxygen is not available - the injected fuel can't
mix
> >perfectly in the short time available. Partly because the massive
structure
> >and reciprocating parts produce more friction losses and partly because
at
> >the higher pressure the heat loss into the combustion chamber is higher.
> >
> >Gary Casey
> >
> >
>
>
> Scott Bilinski
> Eng dept 305
> Phone (858) 657-2536
> Pager (858) 502-5190
> do not archive
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
Yikes... sure will if that's the tab... Johnny
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Scott Bilinski
Subject: RE: Engines-List: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines
--> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
<bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Dont they cost 60K, that will put the breaks on that engine!!!
At 08:02 AM 2/6/04 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
>
>Hi Denny,
>
>You mentioned DynaCam... I've been intrigued by that engine for a lot of
>years... the last I heard--maybe 3 or 4 years ago--there was a new group
>involved that had big plans to produce engines in a skookum new facility
and
>they were actively looking for investors. It looked to me like they were
>going about it all goofy and it was not much more than a hole into which to
>pour money. You mention that they may be trying to get some engines out in
>the experimental arena... that is of interest to me if it is more than just
>a ploy to get investors. Any details would be appreciated.
>
>That design has a lot of positive attributes for some applications. For
>those of you that haven't been exposed to the DynaCam: 12 cyl so should be
>smooth, low rpm so needs no PSRU, tons of torque (they say), torpedo-like
>shape fits under most cowls easily (someone once said that the original
>intent was actually to use little ones to power torpedoes), good power to
>weight, etc... and for die-hard certified engine fans, a 200 hp version
>supposedly was FAA (or CAA?) certified years ago by the original design
>group and flew a lot of hours in a low-wing Piper of some sort. This is
one
>that would have a lot of us drooling if it was for real IMHO.
>
>Johnny Johnson
>
>Denny wrote <snipped>:
>Look at the Dyna-Cam story... <snip>
>Dyna-Cam would have been well advised to build a base of engines running in
>the field by catering to the experimenters right from the start... I see
>they are now hoping to do that, but I suspect their window of opportunity
>has closed
>denny...
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines |
PRIORITY_NO_NAME
--> Engines-List message posted by: Steve Thomas <lists@stevet.net>
Hello Scott,
Friday, February 6, 2004, 7:03:25 AM, you wrote:
SB> Dont they cost 60K, that will put the breaks on that engine!!!
You can check out their web site at:
http://www.dynacam.com
They don't currently have any pricing posted, but the last I remember
it was priced in the mid $20K range. And they have been "focusing" on
the experimental market for the last 4 years or so. Pricing won't be
the problem with this engine.
--
Best regards,
Steve
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=3x+u
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Message 9
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| Subject: | DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines PRIORITY_NO_NAME |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the link. What do you perceive will be the problem?
Johnny Johnson
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Thomas
Subject: Re: Engines-List: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines
PRIORITY_NO_NAME
--> Engines-List message posted by: Steve Thomas <lists@stevet.net>
Hello Scott,
Friday, February 6, 2004, 7:03:25 AM, you wrote:
SB> Dont they cost 60K, that will put the breaks on that engine!!!
You can check out their web site at:
http://www.dynacam.com
They don't currently have any pricing posted, but the last I remember
it was priced in the mid $20K range. And they have been "focusing" on
the experimental market for the last 4 years or so. Pricing won't be
the problem with this engine.
--
Best regards,
Steve
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
I called them 2 years ago when I was looking for a alternative engine, all
I remember was the price was so high that it was not a option. I thought 60k.
At 08:38 AM 2/6/04 -0800, you wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: Steve Thomas <lists@stevet.net>
>
>Hello Scott,
>
>Friday, February 6, 2004, 7:03:25 AM, you wrote:
>
>SB> Dont they cost 60K, that will put the breaks on that engine!!!
>
>
>You can check out their web site at:
>
>http://www.dynacam.com
>
>They don't currently have any pricing posted, but the last I remember
>it was priced in the mid $20K range. And they have been "focusing" on
>the experimental market for the last 4 years or so. Pricing won't be
>the problem with this engine.
>
>--
>
>Best regards,
> Steve
>
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>
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>=3x+u
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>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines PRIORITY_NO_NAME |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Steve Thomas <lists@stevet.net>
Hello Johnny,
Friday, February 6, 2004, 9:20:47 AM, you wrote:
JJ> Thanks for the link. What do you perceive will be the problem?
JJ> Johnny Johnson
Delivery - just like Zoche. And, if they ever do deliver, you would
have to be real cautious about how financially stable they would be to
offer ongoing support.
I'd love to see all these projects get delivered. Engine technology
is the biggest drag on OBAM aircraft and it would be nice to have some
options - particularly for us non-engineering types who are too scared
to do our own conversions.
I'd personally go for the Mazda rotary - particularly the new RX-8
engine - if I were up to the task. But, alas, I'm not.
I hope that they make it.
--
Best regards,
Steve
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Message 12
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| Subject: | DynaCam, was alternative diesel engines |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Doug Ritter <d.d.ritter@verizon.net>
I talked to the president of DynaCam, don't remember her name, about a year
ago and it just plane sounded like they were without funding and couldn't
go anywhere with it. She indicated that the future looked grim but I have
to agree it has definite appeal to us home builders. Oh, the price was in
the "competitive" market range about 27k. Something has gotta break soon!
At 08:02 AM 2/6/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
>
>Hi Denny,
>
>You mentioned DynaCam... I've been intrigued by that engine for a lot of
>years... the last I heard--maybe 3 or 4 years ago--there was a new group
>involved that had big plans to produce engines in a skookum new facility and
>they were actively looking for investors. It looked to me like they were
>going about it all goofy and it was not much more than a hole into which to
>pour money. You mention that they may be trying to get some engines out in
>the experimental arena... that is of interest to me if it is more than just
>a ploy to get investors. Any details would be appreciated.
>
>That design has a lot of positive attributes for some applications. For
>those of you that haven't been exposed to the DynaCam: 12 cyl so should be
>smooth, low rpm so needs no PSRU, tons of torque (they say), torpedo-like
>shape fits under most cowls easily (someone once said that the original
>intent was actually to use little ones to power torpedoes), good power to
>weight, etc... and for die-hard certified engine fans, a 200 hp version
>supposedly was FAA (or CAA?) certified years ago by the original design
>group and flew a lot of hours in a low-wing Piper of some sort. This is one
>that would have a lot of us drooling if it was for real IMHO.
>
>Johnny Johnson
>
>Denny wrote <snipped>:
>Look at the Dyna-Cam story... <snip>
>Dyna-Cam would have been well advised to build a base of engines running in
>the field by catering to the experimenters right from the start... I see
>they are now hoping to do that, but I suspect their window of opportunity
>has closed
>denny...
>
>
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