Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:22 AM - Re: Engines-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/20/04 (craig)
2. 03:27 AM - Re: Engines-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/20/04 (craig)
3. 06:28 AM - Re: Engine incident mystery (Gary Casey)
4. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: Engine incident mystery (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
5. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: Engine incident mystery (James R. Cunningham)
6. 09:22 AM - Re: Re: Engine incident mystery (George Murphy)
7. 09:22 AM - Re: Engine incident mystery (Paul Pengilly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Engines-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/20/04 |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "craig" <rupilot@nvbell.net>
This does sound like electrical in nature. But with the list of the last
things done
The first thing i would check is your fuel line. With a new fuel line that
is made
for you, you always check for blockage as during manufacture there can be
a bit of rubber stuck in there. I have always check my new fuel lines
before
installing because it does happen. Do both a visual inspection and blow
some
air to make sure. You are generally looking of a piece that is stuck from
were
the connector is mated to the hose, It acts like a little flapper valve and
can
do exactly like your engine is behaving.
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
>
> My partner and I have an IO-360(D) engine in our Cardinal that is
> misbehaving and so far is a total mystery. This engine has about 4,000TT
> and 1350SMOH and has had all the cylinders "repaired" with new pistons and
> rings about 200 hours ago. At approximately that time the fuel servo,
fuel
> distributor, fuel pump, electric pump and all the hoses were replaced.
> Included were all the seals in the gascolator. Maybe someone on the list
> has a suggestion:
>
> He was flying it a while back at 9500 ft, ROP, about 65 degrees ambient.
It
> was about an hour or so into the flight with probably half the fuel left
(I
> don't know if the fuel selector was in "both" or not. He said that it
> suddenly started "bucking and shaking" but it lasted only a few seconds,
> after which it ran perfect. He didn't look at the JPI or the fuel
> flow(pressure) during the event as it didn't last very long. He continued
> home, staying high and over airports. I immediately thought of valve
> sticking problems and my usual A&P and I did the Lycoming valve clearance
> test. All the valve guides were on the loose side of the clearance
limits.
> We checked everything else we could find and fixed a couple of intake and
> exhaust flange leaks. All valves opened the same amount (subjective
> observation). The plugs all looked okay, but some were wetter than others
> (the engine burns a quart every 4 hours). We took off the distributor cap
> and found a loose connection at one of the breaker points. The connector
> pulled easily off the spade terminal. That was tightened and it was
> observed that there was no oil or other problem with the mag. Not finding
a
> smoking gun, I took it for a 1-hour test flight over the airport during
> which time it ran perfect. This was followed by another 1-hour flight,
> complete with a "GAMI" lean test. Everything being normal, we continued
to
> fly and it had about 30 hours of uneventful operation after that.
>
> Then this weekend I was flying it, climbing out at 7500 feet, heavily
> loaded, at 2500 rpm, WOT and leaned to 1350-1400 EGT at 105 mph indicated.
> We had about 40 gallons of fuel with the selector on both. The engine
went
> from perfectly smooth to dead(I think) and then came back to life a half
> second later. I say dead because during the off time it was perfectly
> smooth with no roughness that I would expect from one dead cylinder. When
> it came back to life it surged back up to normal rpm and then immediately
> quit again. This occurred for maybe 5 to 10 cycles and then suddenly
> everything was normal. I immediately pushed the mixture in, but I'm
pretty
> sure that didn't have any effect. By the time I turned toward lower
ground
> the event was over. I'll admit that I didn't look at the engine monitor -
> the non-recording kind - and didn't notice what the fuel pressure gauge
was
> saying. We headed for the nearest airport, continuing to climb, and
looked
> things over. Not finding anything, we continued. We put another 5 hours
on
> it since with not hint of a problem. Some other observations:
>
> There was never any indication of water in the fuel. We fuel from an
> underground tank, it hasn't rained in months, and the plane is stored in a
> hanger. My partner had fueled remotely and I fueled at our home base. I
> always drain all 5 sumps. A few years ago the ignition switch was worked
on
> to comply with an AD note (service bulletin?). The mag was serviced in
> accordance with the AD note about 18 months and 200 hours ago. At the
last
> annual 3 months ago we replaced all the plugs with "rebuilt" plugs. The
> ignition wires are old. I'm pretty sure one mag side didn't drop out as
the
> rpm drop was too much for that - one thing I did notice was that the tach
> needle was wildly flinging about, not what would happen if one set of
plugs
> quit firing. I'm pretty sure one or two cylinders didn't stop firing as
> there was no roughness or vibration. I've never seen any wavering or
> unsteadiness in the fuel flow indication before or after the event. It
> might be my imagination, but I'm not sure if it runs as smooth LOP as
> before. In neither case was the electric pump turned on. Was the cause
of
> this event the same as for the previous one reported by my partner? I
> assume it was, although his description is a little different than mine.
>
> Anybody got any brilliant ideas? I can't come up with a reason to ground
> the plane, but I don't feel comfortable flying it either.
>
> Gary Casey
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engines-List Digest: 5 Msgs - 09/20/04 |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "craig" <rupilot@nvbell.net>
On the same to I might add. I once had the same trouble with a Beech
Stagerwing
The engine would stop dead cold then come back to life. Not being able to
dubicat
it myself and would one happen about once every 8 hours or so of flight.
I took all kinds of things apart, sent all kinds of thing out to rebuilt or
tested.
I found it by acident i pulled the main injector tube off and out fell a
piece of shirnk tubing.
So keep you eye open and check everything.
>
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
>
> My partner and I have an IO-360(D) engine in our Cardinal that is
> misbehaving and so far is a total mystery. This engine has about 4,000TT
> and 1350SMOH and has had all the cylinders "repaired" with new pistons and
> rings about 200 hours ago. At approximately that time the fuel servo,
fuel
> distributor, fuel pump, electric pump and all the hoses were replaced.
> Included were all the seals in the gascolator. Maybe someone on the list
> has a suggestion:
>
> He was flying it a while back at 9500 ft, ROP, about 65 degrees ambient.
It
> was about an hour or so into the flight with probably half the fuel left
(I
> don't know if the fuel selector was in "both" or not. He said that it
> suddenly started "bucking and shaking" but it lasted only a few seconds,
> after which it ran perfect. He didn't look at the JPI or the fuel
> flow(pressure) during the event as it didn't last very long. He continued
> home, staying high and over airports. I immediately thought of valve
> sticking problems and my usual A&P and I did the Lycoming valve clearance
> test. All the valve guides were on the loose side of the clearance
limits.
> We checked everything else we could find and fixed a couple of intake and
> exhaust flange leaks. All valves opened the same amount (subjective
> observation). The plugs all looked okay, but some were wetter than others
> (the engine burns a quart every 4 hours). We took off the distributor cap
> and found a loose connection at one of the breaker points. The connector
> pulled easily off the spade terminal. That was tightened and it was
> observed that there was no oil or other problem with the mag. Not finding
a
> smoking gun, I took it for a 1-hour test flight over the airport during
> which time it ran perfect. This was followed by another 1-hour flight,
> complete with a "GAMI" lean test. Everything being normal, we continued
to
> fly and it had about 30 hours of uneventful operation after that.
>
> Then this weekend I was flying it, climbing out at 7500 feet, heavily
> loaded, at 2500 rpm, WOT and leaned to 1350-1400 EGT at 105 mph indicated.
> We had about 40 gallons of fuel with the selector on both. The engine
went
> from perfectly smooth to dead(I think) and then came back to life a half
> second later. I say dead because during the off time it was perfectly
> smooth with no roughness that I would expect from one dead cylinder. When
> it came back to life it surged back up to normal rpm and then immediately
> quit again. This occurred for maybe 5 to 10 cycles and then suddenly
> everything was normal. I immediately pushed the mixture in, but I'm
pretty
> sure that didn't have any effect. By the time I turned toward lower
ground
> the event was over. I'll admit that I didn't look at the engine monitor -
> the non-recording kind - and didn't notice what the fuel pressure gauge
was
> saying. We headed for the nearest airport, continuing to climb, and
looked
> things over. Not finding anything, we continued. We put another 5 hours
on
> it since with not hint of a problem. Some other observations:
>
> There was never any indication of water in the fuel. We fuel from an
> underground tank, it hasn't rained in months, and the plane is stored in a
> hanger. My partner had fueled remotely and I fueled at our home base. I
> always drain all 5 sumps. A few years ago the ignition switch was worked
on
> to comply with an AD note (service bulletin?). The mag was serviced in
> accordance with the AD note about 18 months and 200 hours ago. At the
last
> annual 3 months ago we replaced all the plugs with "rebuilt" plugs. The
> ignition wires are old. I'm pretty sure one mag side didn't drop out as
the
> rpm drop was too much for that - one thing I did notice was that the tach
> needle was wildly flinging about, not what would happen if one set of
plugs
> quit firing. I'm pretty sure one or two cylinders didn't stop firing as
> there was no roughness or vibration. I've never seen any wavering or
> unsteadiness in the fuel flow indication before or after the event. It
> might be my imagination, but I'm not sure if it runs as smooth LOP as
> before. In neither case was the electric pump turned on. Was the cause
of
> this event the same as for the previous one reported by my partner? I
> assume it was, although his description is a little different than mine.
>
> Anybody got any brilliant ideas? I can't come up with a reason to ground
> the plane, but I don't feel comfortable flying it either.
>
> Gary Casey
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Engine incident mystery |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
Thanks for the several replies to my question. Here are some comments:
Intermittent P-leads: I wondered about this, but what is the likelihood
that both would ground at the same time? I wonder what would happen if they
managed to touch each other - would the engine quit? This would cast
suspicion on the wiring or the switch.
Fuel vent plugged? I wondered about this, but both times the fuel selector
was on "both." I would also have suspected a symptom before it quit. It is
fuel-injected and these engines will lose considerable power on the lean
side before they quit. I would also suspect a variation in the fuel flow
indication before or after the event. The plane is a Cardinal, which has a
reputation for unequal fuel feed, normally attributed to liquid in the vent
lines.
Water in the fuel? It could be, even though there was no trace in the
drained fuel. Such a thing is always possible. However, the Cardinal has a
reputation for being the "best" when it comes to water retention. The tanks
are well-shaped and there is a sump under the floor for each tank as well as
one on the firewall. And we fly in Southern California where it is mild and
dry.
The only double-ignition failure that I have heard of with the "D" mags is
the mag falling off or the drive breaking, both of which are permanent.
One suggested I was upside down. Judging from my passengers reaction, that
is a possibility...
Still a mystery, but I will check out some of the suggestions.
Gary Casey
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Engine incident mystery |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Ok I'm most definatly NOT an aircraft engine expert but from the
symptoms it 'sounds' electrical. The only single point of electrical
failure you could have for both mags is the ignition
switch...Yes?....Note, my experimental A/C do not have single point of
electrical failure for that very reason.
I would pull the P lead off each mag and hang a multimeter off the wire
with the other lead to ground. This way you can fault find without the
engine running.
I bet if you wiggle the key or the terminals on the switch in the "both"
postion I bet you will find it (it will short)....The multimeter can
usually be set up so it beeps if there is a continuity...The way you can
just listen for the meter while your upside down under yer panel...:)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Casey
Subject: Engines-List: Re: Engine incident mystery
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
Thanks for the several replies to my question. Here are some comments:
Intermittent P-leads: I wondered about this, but what is the likelihood
that both would ground at the same time? I wonder what would happen if
they managed to touch each other - would the engine quit? This would
cast suspicion on the wiring or the switch.
Fuel vent plugged? I wondered about this, but both times the fuel
selector was on "both." I would also have suspected a symptom before it
quit. It is fuel-injected and these engines will lose considerable
power on the lean side before they quit. I would also suspect a
variation in the fuel flow indication before or after the event. The
plane is a Cardinal, which has a reputation for unequal fuel feed,
normally attributed to liquid in the vent lines.
Water in the fuel? It could be, even though there was no trace in the
drained fuel. Such a thing is always possible. However, the Cardinal
has a reputation for being the "best" when it comes to water retention.
The tanks are well-shaped and there is a sump under the floor for each
tank as well as one on the firewall. And we fly in Southern California
where it is mild and dry.
The only double-ignition failure that I have heard of with the "D" mags
is the mag falling off or the drive breaking, both of which are
permanent.
One suggested I was upside down. Judging from my passengers reaction,
that is a possibility...
Still a mystery, but I will check out some of the suggestions.
Gary Casey
==
direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
==
==
==
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Engine incident mystery |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "James R. Cunningham" <jrccea@bellsouth.net>
Gary, please keep me informed on this. I have had similar symptoms (engine
totally quitting for a fraction of a second) on my carburated O-320-E2A.
Thanks,
Jim
Gary Casey wrote:
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
>
> Thanks for the several replies to my question. Here are some comments:
>
> Intermittent P-leads: I wondered about this, but what is the likelihood
> that both would ground at the same time? I wonder what would happen if they
> managed to touch each other - would the engine quit? This would cast
> suspicion on the wiring or the switch.
>
> Fuel vent plugged? I wondered about this, but both times the fuel selector
> was on "both." I would also have suspected a symptom before it quit. It is
> fuel-injected and these engines will lose considerable power on the lean
> side before they quit. I would also suspect a variation in the fuel flow
> indication before or after the event. The plane is a Cardinal, which has a
> reputation for unequal fuel feed, normally attributed to liquid in the vent
> lines.
>
> Water in the fuel? It could be, even though there was no trace in the
> drained fuel. Such a thing is always possible. However, the Cardinal has a
> reputation for being the "best" when it comes to water retention. The tanks
> are well-shaped and there is a sump under the floor for each tank as well as
> one on the firewall. And we fly in Southern California where it is mild and
> dry.
>
> The only double-ignition failure that I have heard of with the "D" mags is
> the mag falling off or the drive breaking, both of which are permanent.
>
> One suggested I was upside down. Judging from my passengers reaction, that
> is a possibility...
>
> Still a mystery, but I will check out some of the suggestions.
>
> Gary Casey
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Engine incident mystery |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "George Murphy" <garthe@access4less.net>
Just had this problem with motorhome and may help you. !2 volt for mh was
going non and off. It turned out that when factory made battery cable they
coated connection with plastic and some got on the bottom side of connector
and held connector off of battery about 1/3. As terminal wore it was more
and more until on and off and then total failure When removed all is fine.
Good luck
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Engine incident mystery |
0.12 HTML_TITLE_EMPTY BODY: HTML title contains no text
--> Engines-List message posted by: Paul Pengilly <pengilly@southwest.com.au>
Gary and buy that parachute, sides like it would be a good insurance policy.
Regared
Paul
James R. Cunningham wrote:
>--> Engines-List message posted by: "James R. Cunningham" <jrccea@bellsouth.net>
>
>Gary, please keep me informed on this. I have had similar symptoms (engine
>totally quitting for a fraction of a second) on my carburated O-320-E2A.
>Thanks,
>Jim
>
>Gary Casey wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> Engines-List message posted by: "Gary Casey" <glcasey@adelphia.net>
>>
>>Thanks for the several replies to my question. Here are some comments:
>>
>>Intermittent P-leads: I wondered about this, but what is the likelihood
>>that both would ground at the same time? I wonder what would happen if they
>>managed to touch each other - would the engine quit? This would cast
>>suspicion on the wiring or the switch.
>>
>>Fuel vent plugged? I wondered about this, but both times the fuel selector
>>was on "both." I would also have suspected a symptom before it quit. It is
>>fuel-injected and these engines will lose considerable power on the lean
>>side before they quit. I would also suspect a variation in the fuel flow
>>indication before or after the event. The plane is a Cardinal, which has a
>>reputation for unequal fuel feed, normally attributed to liquid in the vent
>>lines.
>>
>>Water in the fuel? It could be, even though there was no trace in the
>>drained fuel. Such a thing is always possible. However, the Cardinal has a
>>reputation for being the "best" when it comes to water retention. The tanks
>>are well-shaped and there is a sump under the floor for each tank as well as
>>one on the firewall. And we fly in Southern California where it is mild and
>>dry.
>>
>>The only double-ignition failure that I have heard of with the "D" mags is
>>the mag falling off or the drive breaking, both of which are permanent.
>>
>>One suggested I was upside down. Judging from my passengers reaction, that
>>is a possibility...
>>
>>Still a mystery, but I will check out some of the suggestions.
>>
>>Gary Casey
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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