---------------------------------------------------------- Engines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/23/05: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:08 AM - Re: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees (Philip A. C.) 2. 06:45 AM - Re: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees (Jim Stone) 3. 07:02 AM - Re: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees (jrc) 4. 09:47 AM - Re: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees (Jim Stone) 5. 10:10 AM - Re: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees (Gilles Thesee) 6. 10:22 AM - Re: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees (Jim Stone) 7. 11:06 AM - Re: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees (cecilth@juno.com) 8. 04:40 PM - Re: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees (Harvey Rule) 9. 04:52 PM - Re: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees (jrc) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:55 AM PST US From: "Philip A. C." Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees --> Engines-List message posted by: "Philip A. C." Jim, If it's an exhaust valve that is stuck, the piston will be on its way down, close to BDC. I'd check under the valve covers first, that's easily accessible... Then, after this is ruled out, the accessory case. Then... Do you need a full re-assembly guide, with pictures? :>) Have a nice day Philip -----Original Message----- From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Stone Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" During the hang, no piston is near TDC, does that rule out a valve? I will varify that again tomorrow. Thanks, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Johnson" Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees > --> Engines-List message posted by: "Ken Johnson" > > Jim, > An easy thing to do would be to check for a valve contacting the top of > a piston by removing the spark plugs. This could be caused by either a > stuck > valve or a lifter stuck in the fully pumped up position. > Good luck > Ken Johnson > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Archie" > To: > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees > > >> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" >> >> Not likely in the accessory case based on your description and symptoms, >> (but possible). The crankshaft gear is one of the smallest in there, and > to >> rotate >> the crank in either direction around 350 deg."almost" dismisses that >> probability. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jim Stone" >> To: >> Subject: Fw: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees >> >> >> > --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" >> > >> > Say it ain't so. >> > Jim >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "steve korney" >> > To: >> > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 > degrees >> > >> > >> >> --> Engines-List message posted by: "steve korney" > >> >> >> >> >> >> Jim... >> >> >> >> Could be in the assesory case...Maybe even the oil pump...Or the fuel >> >> pump >> >> push rod... >> >> >> >> Best... Steve >> >> >> >> >> >> ----Original Message Follows---- >> >> From: "Jim Stone" >> >> To: >> >> Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 > degrees >> >> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:27:34 -0500 >> >> >> >> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" >> >> >> >> >> >> Philip, >> >> The hang is solid, firm not mushy and has sort of a clunk that can be >> >> felt >> >> in the accessory section, which is why I removed the mag. I was > present >> >> for >> >> most of the overhaul and I had my mech disassemble the jugs to ensure >> >> they >> >> were assembled correctly. Perhaps a mistake was made during > reassembly. >> >> >> >> The engine has always been very stiff and I don't recall every making >> >> a >> >> full >> >> 360. >> >> >> >> The engine was not pickled, but as stated earlier, was oiled well > during >> >> assymbly and has been at 70 degrees year round with desicator plugs in >> >> each >> >> of the upper plug holes. Moisture doesn't seem to be an issue. I'm > not >> >> sure how to check for the the pushrods but will remove the valve >> >> covers >> >> and >> >> start trying to isolate the cause. >> >> >> >> Thanks for your response, >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> > How is the feel of the "hang"? Solid with a Clonk, solid but not so >> >> > Clonky - >> >> > rather giving for a few thousandth before to stop, or mushy? >> >> > >> >> > Was the engine rotated before, when fresh from overhaul? >> >> > >> >> > There is another type of FO possible: many mechanics use pieces of >> >> > split >> >> > rubber hose to hold the conrods upright when joining the two >> >> > half-cases. >> >> > Forget to remove one (unlikely, but can still happen...), and it can >> >> > get >> >> > stuck between the crankshaft anf the cylinder's skirt. It may even >> >> > allow >> >> > the >> >> > engine to be rotated a few times before to wedge itself. >> >> > >> >> > Internal corrosion can also do... pray not! A stuck valve can do >> >> > too, >> >> > and >> >> > this can be a result of corrosion on the stem. >> >> > >> >> > Was the engine "pickled"? >> >> > >> >> > The "feel" helps a lot in determining what's wrong, and >> >> > unfortunately >> >> this >> >> > can't be sent through e-mail... >> >> > >> >> > Rotate slowly, listen attentively, feel through your fingers. Remove >> >> > the >> >> > valve covers and check the pushrods. See if the blockage happens >> >> > when >> >> > one >> >> > particular rocker starts pushing on one valve. >> >> > >> >> > Regards >> >> > >> >> > Philip >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com >> >> > [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim > Stone >> >> > To: engines-list@matronics.com >> >> > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 >> >> > degrees >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" > >> >> > >> >> > Thanks Archie, I was hoping you would give me you opinion. >> >> > Not sure about the rings. Probably Lycoming but not sure. >> >> > The cylinders are new. I ordered new jugs from Lycoming and had >> >> > Performance >> >> > Aero flow balance and install 10 to 1 forged pistons. The engine >> >> > was >> >> > overhauled 3 years ago and has been at constant temp and humidity > since >> >> > (in >> >> > my basement workshop). >> >> > Hope this additional info helps, >> >> > Jim >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > From: "Archie" >> >> > To: >> >> > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 >> >> > degrees >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" > >> >> >> >> >> >> Excessive choke and tight ring gaps will do it. >> >> >> If you are using standard aircraft rings, should not be a problem, >> >> though >> >> >> you can normally drive a truck through the gaps. >> >> >> Are the cylinders oversize? Were they bored correctly? >> >> >> Archie >> >> >> Archie's Racing Service >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: "Jim Stone" >> >> >> To: >> >> >> Subject: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 > degrees >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> I have a 0 time overhauled Lyc 540 and while attempting to set the >> >> >>> mag. >> >> >>> I was rotating the engine with the starter ring or flywheel (prop > not >> >> >>> installed) and noticed the engine would stop at one point while >> >> rotating >> >> >>> clockwise (60degrees btdc) and at a slightly different place when >> >> >>> rotating >> >> >>> counterclockwise(40 degrees btdc). >> >> >>> At both hang points, no piston was approaching TDC (indicating no > FOD >> >> in >> >> >>> cylinder). I removed the mag but no improvement. >> >> >>> Anyone have any ideas on what might cause this and what I need to > do >> >> >>> to >> >> >>> correct it? >> >> >>> Thanks, >> >> >>> Jim >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:47 AM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Philip, I have an overhaul manual so it should provide enough pics to get me started. So that I understand you, are you proposing removing the valve covers and then rotating the engine while watching the function of each valve? I can do that. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip A. C." Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees > --> Engines-List message posted by: "Philip A. C." > > > Jim, > > If it's an exhaust valve that is stuck, the piston will be on its way > down, > close to BDC. > > I'd check under the valve covers first, that's easily accessible... Then, > after this is ruled out, the accessory case. Then... Do you need a full > re-assembly guide, with pictures? :>) > > Have a nice day > > Philip > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim Stone > To: engines-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 > degrees > > > --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" > > During the hang, no piston is near TDC, does that rule out a valve? I > will > varify that again tomorrow. > Thanks, > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ken Johnson" > To: > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees > > >> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Ken Johnson" >> >> Jim, >> An easy thing to do would be to check for a valve contacting the top >> of >> a piston by removing the spark plugs. This could be caused by either a >> stuck >> valve or a lifter stuck in the fully pumped up position. >> Good luck >> Ken Johnson >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Archie" >> To: >> Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees >> >> >>> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" >>> >>> Not likely in the accessory case based on your description and symptoms, >>> (but possible). The crankshaft gear is one of the smallest in there, and >> to >>> rotate >>> the crank in either direction around 350 deg."almost" dismisses that >>> probability. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jim Stone" >>> To: >>> Subject: Fw: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 >>> degrees >>> >>> >>> > --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" >>> > >>> > >>> > Say it ain't so. >>> > Jim >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From: "steve korney" >>> > To: >>> > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 >> degrees >>> > >>> > >>> >> --> Engines-List message posted by: "steve korney" >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Jim... >>> >> >>> >> Could be in the assesory case...Maybe even the oil pump...Or the fuel >>> >> pump >>> >> push rod... >>> >> >>> >> Best... Steve >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> ----Original Message Follows---- >>> >> From: "Jim Stone" >>> >> To: >>> >> Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 >> degrees >>> >> Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:27:34 -0500 >>> >> >>> >> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Philip, >>> >> The hang is solid, firm not mushy and has sort of a clunk that can be >>> >> felt >>> >> in the accessory section, which is why I removed the mag. I was >> present >>> >> for >>> >> most of the overhaul and I had my mech disassemble the jugs to ensure >>> >> they >>> >> were assembled correctly. Perhaps a mistake was made during >> reassembly. >>> >> >>> >> The engine has always been very stiff and I don't recall every making >>> >> a >>> >> full >>> >> 360. >>> >> >>> >> The engine was not pickled, but as stated earlier, was oiled well >> during >>> >> assymbly and has been at 70 degrees year round with desicator plugs >>> >> in >>> >> each >>> >> of the upper plug holes. Moisture doesn't seem to be an issue. I'm >> not >>> >> sure how to check for the the pushrods but will remove the valve >>> >> covers >>> >> and >>> >> start trying to isolate the cause. >>> >> >>> >> Thanks for your response, >>> >> Jim >>> >> >>> >> > How is the feel of the "hang"? Solid with a Clonk, solid but not so >>> >> > Clonky - >>> >> > rather giving for a few thousandth before to stop, or mushy? >>> >> > >>> >> > Was the engine rotated before, when fresh from overhaul? >>> >> > >>> >> > There is another type of FO possible: many mechanics use pieces of >>> >> > split >>> >> > rubber hose to hold the conrods upright when joining the two >>> >> > half-cases. >>> >> > Forget to remove one (unlikely, but can still happen...), and it >>> >> > can >>> >> > get >>> >> > stuck between the crankshaft anf the cylinder's skirt. It may even >>> >> > allow >>> >> > the >>> >> > engine to be rotated a few times before to wedge itself. >>> >> > >>> >> > Internal corrosion can also do... pray not! A stuck valve can do >>> >> > too, >>> >> > and >>> >> > this can be a result of corrosion on the stem. >>> >> > >>> >> > Was the engine "pickled"? >>> >> > >>> >> > The "feel" helps a lot in determining what's wrong, and >>> >> > unfortunately >>> >> this >>> >> > can't be sent through e-mail... >>> >> > >>> >> > Rotate slowly, listen attentively, feel through your fingers. >>> >> > Remove >>> >> > the >>> >> > valve covers and check the pushrods. See if the blockage happens >>> >> > when >>> >> > one >>> >> > particular rocker starts pushing on one valve. >>> >> > >>> >> > Regards >>> >> > >>> >> > Philip >>> >> > >>> >> > -----Original Message----- >>> >> > From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com >>> >> > [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jim >> Stone >>> >> > To: engines-list@matronics.com >>> >> > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 >>> >> > degrees >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" >> >>> >> > >>> >> > Thanks Archie, I was hoping you would give me you opinion. >>> >> > Not sure about the rings. Probably Lycoming but not sure. >>> >> > The cylinders are new. I ordered new jugs from Lycoming and had >>> >> > Performance >>> >> > Aero flow balance and install 10 to 1 forged pistons. The engine >>> >> > was >>> >> > overhauled 3 years ago and has been at constant temp and humidity >> since >>> >> > (in >>> >> > my basement workshop). >>> >> > Hope this additional info helps, >>> >> > Jim >>> >> > >>> >> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> > From: "Archie" >>> >> > To: >>> >> > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 >>> >> > degrees >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> >> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Excessive choke and tight ring gaps will do it. >>> >> >> If you are using standard aircraft rings, should not be a problem, >>> >> though >>> >> >> you can normally drive a truck through the gaps. >>> >> >> Are the cylinders oversize? Were they bored correctly? >>> >> >> Archie >>> >> >> Archie's Racing Service >>> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >> >> From: "Jim Stone" >>> >> >> To: >>> >> >> Subject: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 >> degrees >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >>> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> I have a 0 time overhauled Lyc 540 and while attempting to set >>> >> >>> the >>> >> >>> mag. >>> >> >>> I was rotating the engine with the starter ring or flywheel (prop >> not >>> >> >>> installed) and noticed the engine would stop at one point while >>> >> rotating >>> >> >>> clockwise (60degrees btdc) and at a slightly different place when >>> >> >>> rotating >>> >> >>> counterclockwise(40 degrees btdc). >>> >> >>> At both hang points, no piston was approaching TDC (indicating no >> FOD >>> >> in >>> >> >>> cylinder). I removed the mag but no improvement. >>> >> >>> Anyone have any ideas on what might cause this and what I need to >> do >>> >> >>> to >>> >> >>> correct it? >>> >> >>> Thanks, >>> >> >>> Jim >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:32 AM PST US From: "jrc" Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees --> Engines-List message posted by: "jrc" It only takes a few minutes to pull a cylinder, and not all that much longer to replace them. Why not pull the cylinders on one side of the engine, which will allow you to inspect that side directly, plus the bottom side of the other bank, and the interior of the crankcase? In a morning's work, you could have the thing apart, checked, and back together. JimC ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stone" Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:41 AM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Seems easy on paper but but keep in mind that my engine is almost ready for flight complete with baffles, hoses, oil cooler, ect. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "jrc" Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees > --> Engines-List message posted by: "jrc" > > It only takes a few minutes to pull a cylinder, and not all that much > longer > to replace them. Why not pull the cylinders on one side of the engine, > which will allow you to inspect that side directly, plus the bottom side > of > the other bank, and the interior of the crankcase? In a morning's work, > you could have the thing apart, checked, and back together. > JimC > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Stone" > To: > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:01 AM PST US From: Gilles Thesee Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees --> Engines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee Jim Stone a crit : >--> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" > >Seems easy on paper but but keep in mind that my engine is almost ready for >flight complete with baffles, hoses, oil cooler, ect. >Jim > > Jim, Your engine is far from being ready for flight, since its mechanical intergrity is in question ;-( In my opinion, there are checks that even a mechanically challenged pilot can perform, wether alone or with the help of his hangar mates. The easiest thing to do is rule out the stuck valve case (most probable). - Remove the cowlings - Remove the spark plugs (all of them) - Check again engine rotation - With a big screw driver, remove rocker covers. They are always readily accessible, even with the baffles. - Check again engine rotation while observing rocker movement. - Check freeness of all valves, pushing on the rocker with suitable soft and blunt tool (tool handle ?) - Call back with valve check results FWIW, With best wishes for Christmas and the New Year, Gilles Thesee Grenoble, France http://contrails.free.fr ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:22:00 AM PST US From: "Jim Stone" Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" Gilles, Thanks for a gameplan. I'll let you know the results soon. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gilles Thesee" Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees > --> Engines-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee > > > Jim Stone a crit : > >>--> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" >> >>Seems easy on paper but but keep in mind that my engine is almost ready >>for >>flight complete with baffles, hoses, oil cooler, ect. >>Jim >> >> > Jim, > > Your engine is far from being ready for flight, since its mechanical > intergrity is in question ;-( > > In my opinion, there are checks that even a mechanically challenged > pilot can perform, wether alone or with the help of his hangar mates. > The easiest thing to do is rule out the stuck valve case (most probable). > > - Remove the cowlings > - Remove the spark plugs (all of them) > - Check again engine rotation > - With a big screw driver, remove rocker covers. They are always readily > accessible, even with the baffles. > - Check again engine rotation while observing rocker movement. > - Check freeness of all valves, pushing on the rocker with suitable soft > and blunt tool (tool handle ?) > > - Call back with valve check results > > FWIW, > With best wishes for Christmas and the New Year, > Gilles Thesee > Grenoble, France > http://contrails.free.fr > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:06:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees From: cecilth@juno.com --> Engines-List message posted by: cecilth@juno.com Take it back to the person who assembled it and say FIX IT! Cecil On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 23:13:16 -0500 "Jim Stone" writes: > --> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" > > > Good, does that give you a better idea of where I should start > looking, I > haven't dug into the rocker arm removal so I'm up for anything. > Thanks, > Jim > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Archie" > To: > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 > degrees > > > > --> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" > > > > > Must have my head up my ---! > > Your problem must have been generated after assembly, > > inasmuch as after the cylinders are installed, the pushrods must > be set to > > the proper clearance, therefore the engine must be rotated. > > If there was a problem then, it would have manifested itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 04:40:20 PM PST US From: Harvey Rule Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees --> Engines-List message posted by: Harvey Rule Sorry to say this but if it won't turn it's as good as a boat anchor right now.I know how you feel, the last thing you want to do is rip it apart but the longer you delay, the longer you'll be on the ground. I absolutely hate going backwards myself but if there's one thing I've learned this past year putting C-IOVC together;sometimes ya just have to bite the bullet and get on with it.I've gone backwards so many times I feel like that's my natural state.I still have to go through two friends of mine who are AME's and they said ,"wait till we get through with you"!They are doing this as a favour to me! >--> Engines-List message posted by: "Jim Stone" > >Seems easy on paper but but keep in mind that my engine is almost ready for >flight complete with baffles, hoses, oil cooler, ect. >Jim >----- Original Message ----- >From: "jrc" >To: >Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees > > > > >>--> Engines-List message posted by: "jrc" >> >>It only takes a few minutes to pull a cylinder, and not all that much >>longer >>to replace them. Why not pull the cylinders on one side of the engine, >>which will allow you to inspect that side directly, plus the bottom side >>of >>the other bank, and the interior of the crankcase? In a morning's work, >>you could have the thing apart, checked, and back together. >>JimC >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Jim Stone" >>To: >>Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:46 PM PST US From: "jrc" Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine won't rotate by hand a full 360 degrees --> Engines-List message posted by: "jrc" True. That means that it'll take 6 hours instead of 4 to remove two cylinders on one bank, inspect the innards, and reassemble. I'd pull the rockers first, and attempt to rotate, then pull the cylinders if need be. JimC ----- Original Message ----- >>Seems easy on paper but but keep in mind that my engine is almost ready >>for >>flight complete with baffles, hoses, oil cooler, ect. >>Jim