Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:41 AM - carburated -> fuel injected (rd2@evenlink.com)
2. 05:44 AM - Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions (Gary Casey)
3. 07:04 AM - Re: carburated -> fuel injected (flyv35b)
4. 07:15 AM - carburated -> fuel injected (rd2@evenlink.com)
5. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions (Wes Bunker)
6. 09:35 AM - Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions (gary.stiffler@kroger.com)
7. 11:08 AM - Re: Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
8. 11:40 AM - Re: carburated -> fuel injected (TeamGrumman@aol.com)
9. 02:40 PM - Re: Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions (Archie)
10. 02:57 PM - Re: Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions (Archie)
11. 03:06 PM - Re: Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions (steve korney)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | carburated -> fuel injected |
--> Engines-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
No, Konrad, unfortunately it is being considered for a production aircraft.
That means field approval (if it can be done). But first we need to find
out how big of a project it might become, then the approval will be
addressed. At the end it might not materialize at all.
Best
Rumen
do not archive
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from Konrad L. Werner; Date: 10:43 PM 3/19/2006
-0700)
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Konrad L. Werner" <klwerner@comcast.net>
STC??? It is for an experimental aircraft, or is it not? If not then I do
not have an answer for you. But if it is for an experimental, then you may
contact Airflow Performance for their fine system (...or any of the major
engine builders for their opinion on what parts are necessary to make it
happen).
Good Luck,
Konrad
Do not archive
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Gary Casey <glcasey@adelphia.net>
Okay, just for the fun of it let's keep this thread going. I think
there is no substantial argument that can prove that improved balance
can help durability. The combustion pressure pushing on a 5.25 dia.
piston results in a force of about 17,000 pounds, certainly orders of
magnitude more than any likely unbalance. However, the engine
balance can have an affect on accessories - notably alternator
mounting brackets.
How good does the balance have to be? Is perfection the only logical
goal? I don't think so - it should be good enough so that engine
imbalance doesn't add noticeable vibration to the airframe. Even if
it were perfect to imply that rotating imbalance will go to zero is
incorrect. A 4-cylinder opposed engine has a quite high secondary
yaw couple that can't be balanced. Even the 6-cylinder engines are
only balanced in first and second order modes - higher orders may not
be balanced (I don't know as most people stop analyzing after the 2nd
order). It's all a matter of priorities and I would put my efforts
somewhere else. Getting a dynamic prop balance after the engine is
running always seems like a good idea, although my last Cessna was
very smooth without it, so I never bothered. On the Cessna before
that I had dynamic balancing done whenever we had anything done that
could affect balance and even then it was never very smooth.
Gary Casey
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: carburated -> fuel injected |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
Contact your local FSDO and talk to them about your intentions. I think
they will say you have to go through the ACO engineering and apply for an
STC. It is highly unlikely they would do a field approval from a FSDO.
Cliff A&P/IA
----- Original Message -----
From: <rd2@evenlink.com>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 3:32 AM
Subject: Engines-List: carburated -> fuel injected
> --> Engines-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
>
> No, Konrad, unfortunately it is being considered for a production
> aircraft.
> That means field approval (if it can be done). But first we need to find
> out how big of a project it might become, then the approval will be
> addressed. At the end it might not materialize at all.
> Best
> Rumen
> do not archive
>
> _____________________Original message __________________________
> (received from Konrad L. Werner; Date: 10:43 PM 3/19/2006
> -0700)
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Konrad L. Werner"
> <klwerner@comcast.net>
>
> STC??? It is for an experimental aircraft, or is it not? If not then I
> do
> not have an answer for you. But if it is for an experimental, then you may
> contact Airflow Performance for their fine system (...or any of the major
> engine builders for their opinion on what parts are necessary to make it
> happen).
>
> Good Luck,
> Konrad
>
> Do not archive
>
>
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | carburated -> fuel injected |
--> Engines-List message posted by: rd2@evenlink.com
Thanks for the tip, Cliff
Rumen
do not archive
_____________________Original message __________________________
(received from flyv35b; Date: 07:01 AM 3/20/2006 -0800)
--> Engines-List message posted by: "flyv35b" <flyv35b@ashcreekwireless.com>
Contact your local FSDO and talk to them about your intentions. I think
they will say you have to go through the ACO engineering and apply for an
STC. It is highly unlikely they would do a field approval from a FSDO.
Cliff A&P/IA
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Wes Bunker" <wesbflyer@surewest.net>
Archie, I have to point out that pulling a plug wire will not change
compression of that cylinder. It will certainly change the combustion
pressure, which does increase the amount of vibration. A few months back my
O-320 swallowed the #4 exhaust valve head. Whole lotta shakin' goin' on, I
can tell you! Careful balancing of reciprocating parts in any piece of
machinery contributes to longevity of the bearings as well as any
fatigue-sensitive parts. Engineers may be able to tell us the specific
numbers related to this, but any old backyard shade-tree race car bulder can
tell you the facts of reality.
Wes
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions |
Cc:
--> Engines-List message posted by: gary.stiffler@kroger.com
>Hmm, this should be good . Think I'll grab a beer and watch...
>Ed in JXN
Wow! I agree, this is interesting.
>First of all, what is your definition of perfect? It must be the
accuracy or resolution of >your equipment. Apparently your scales only
weigh to .01 grams. What if I needed my rods >balanced to .001 grams,
isn't that closer to
>perfect than what you could handle?
I have a few questions and I mean no disrespect I am just curious. If what
was necessary was .001 and you only had equipment that measured .01,
wouldn't you get different equipment?
I think in one of the original posts the balance question was brought up
because the shop that was doing the work was not trusted to remove metal
from the parts. I have not seen that in today's comments so my next
question assumes that it is not an issue. If you were balancing anything
on something that rotates what would be the reason to not balance it as
well as your equipment will allow? The result may not be perceived by your
senses but it could not have a negative effect on wear. You may not
achieve "perfection" but why set out to half-ass it?
Gary AA1B 160 N952GS
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
Gary,
I have done business with this shop before! I only wanted the weights of
the rods -- big end and small end, I didn't want to risk having them grind
strength away in the wrong place or otherwise ruin the rods. Search some on the
web and you'll see that several sites advise against removing weight from
Lycoming rods. My thinking was that I could match up the rods opposite each
other in the best pairs and not have to risk ruining them.
In my first post, I wanted to know what is considered good enough.
clip ---
Speaking of engine balance, what is considered good enough? Is 6 grams at
the big end of the rods really bad, or good, or what? It looks like I have
about 3 grams worst case on the recip end. The crank is good (under 1 gram),
and the piston/pins are only a couple of tenths apart.
---
Archie says that nothing less than perfect is acceptable. I know that
perfect is impossible to achieve, so I still want to know what is considered "good
enough."
Dan Hopper
RV-7A Flying (working on 2nd engine)
In a message dated 3/20/2006 12:36:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
gary.stiffler@kroger.com writes:
I think in one of the original posts the balance question was brought up
because the shop that was doing the work was not trusted to remove metal
from the parts. I have not seen that in today's comments so my next
question assumes that it is not an issue. If you were balancing anything
on something that rotates what would be the reason to not balance it as
well as your equipment will allow? The result may not be perceived by your
senses but it could not have a negative effect on wear. You may not
achieve "perfection" but why set out to half-ass it?
Gary AA1B 160 N952GS
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: carburated -> fuel injected |
--> Engines-List message posted by: TeamGrumman@aol.com
In a message dated 3/20/06 9:28:04 AM, rd2@evenlink.com writes:
>
> Contact your local FSDO and talk to them about your intentions.=A0 I think
> they will say you have to go through the ACO engineering and apply for an
> STC.=A0 It is highly unlikely they would do a field approval from a FSDO.
>
Actually, LyCon has taken one model and converted it to another during
overhaul. You still have the original tag, but, the paperwork shows what's been
done.
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" <archie97@earthlink.net>
Am still reading the thread, but will not comment any further regarding
this.
I will say that I own three balancing machines capable of weights of 1500lbs
to several ounces. I also have two analytical systems for checking and
locating
imbalance of rotating parts.
You are correct in bracket cracking, (also exhaust cracking), where proper
balancing of all rotating parts, (including alternator) contributes to
reduction
of such. Also, the propeller, correctly indicated earlier, is a major
culprit.
An interesting fact many may not be aware of, is that once everything is
perfect,
a simple removal and replacement of the prop will show a slight imbalance,
which would not be noticeable, but the instruments have picked it up.
BTW, I do not believe I mentioned that pulling a wire changes static
compression.
Obviously that is fixed. It will change resultant pressure due to lack of
combustion.
I cover all these aspects in my presentations to race shops, and EAA
chapters.
BTW, I am also a retired industrial engineer, college professor, currently
building racing engines.(with three world records), and have raced for over
thirty years.
Nuff said, no need to turn this into a novella.
Happy flying...
Archie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wes Bunker" <wesbflyer@surewest.net>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Wes Bunker" <wesbflyer@surewest.net>
>
> Archie, I have to point out that pulling a plug wire will not change
> compression of that cylinder. It will certainly change the combustion
> pressure, which does increase the amount of vibration. A few months back
> my
> O-320 swallowed the #4 exhaust valve head. Whole lotta shakin' goin' on, I
> can tell you! Careful balancing of reciprocating parts in any piece of
> machinery contributes to longevity of the bearings as well as any
> fatigue-sensitive parts. Engineers may be able to tell us the specific
> numbers related to this, but any old backyard shade-tree race car bulder
> can
> tell you the facts of reality.
>
> Wes
>
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" <archie97@earthlink.net>
One last one:
Yes, one of my static scales has the ability to read .001
On a V-type engine the weight of oil in the crank throw
passages is incorporated in the bob weight formula.
Then there are certain instances when an engine will be overbalanced,
but that is another application...................
End of semantics...........
.
----- Original Message -----
From: <gary.stiffler@kroger.com>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 12:32 PM
Subject: Engines-List: Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions
> --> Engines-List message posted by: gary.stiffler@kroger.com
>
>>Hmm, this should be good . Think I'll grab a beer and watch...
>
>
>>Ed in JXN
>
>
> Wow! I agree, this is interesting.
>
>
>>First of all, what is your definition of perfect? It must be the
> accuracy or resolution of >your equipment. Apparently your scales only
> weigh to .01 grams. What if I needed my rods >balanced to .001 grams,
> isn't that closer to
>
>
>>perfect than what you could handle?
>
>
> I have a few questions and I mean no disrespect I am just curious. If what
> was necessary was .001 and you only had equipment that measured .01,
> wouldn't you get different equipment?
>
> I think in one of the original posts the balance question was brought up
> because the shop that was doing the work was not trusted to remove metal
> from the parts. I have not seen that in today's comments so my next
> question assumes that it is not an issue. If you were balancing anything
> on something that rotates what would be the reason to not balance it as
> well as your equipment will allow? The result may not be perceived by your
> senses but it could not have a negative effect on wear. You may not
> achieve "perfection" but why set out to half-ass it?
>
>
> Gary AA1B 160 N952GS
>
>
>
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions |
--> Engines-List message posted by: "steve korney" <s_korney@hotmail.com>
Snip
" BTW, I am also a retired industrial engineer, college professor, currently
building racing engines.(with three world records), and have raced for over
thirty years."---------------------------------------
Just out of curiosity Archie.... What World Records do you personally
own...?
Best... Steve
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Archie" <archie97@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions
--> Engines-List message posted by: "Archie" <archie97@earthlink.net>
Am still reading the thread, but will not comment any further regarding
this.
I will say that I own three balancing machines capable of weights of 1500lbs
to several ounces. I also have two analytical systems for checking and
locating
imbalance of rotating parts.
You are correct in bracket cracking, (also exhaust cracking), where proper
balancing of all rotating parts, (including alternator) contributes to
reduction
of such. Also, the propeller, correctly indicated earlier, is a major
culprit.
An interesting fact many may not be aware of, is that once everything is
perfect,
a simple removal and replacement of the prop will show a slight imbalance,
which would not be noticeable, but the instruments have picked it up.
BTW, I do not believe I mentioned that pulling a wire changes static
compression.
Obviously that is fixed. It will change resultant pressure due to lack of
combustion.
I cover all these aspects in my presentations to race shops, and EAA
chapters.
BTW, I am also a retired industrial engineer, college professor, currently
building racing engines.(with three world records), and have raced for over
thirty years.
Nuff said, no need to turn this into a novella.
Happy flying...
Archie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wes Bunker" <wesbflyer@surewest.net>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Connecting rod/bolt balancing questions
> --> Engines-List message posted by: "Wes Bunker" <wesbflyer@surewest.net>
>
> Archie, I have to point out that pulling a plug wire will not change
> compression of that cylinder. It will certainly change the combustion
> pressure, which does increase the amount of vibration. A few months back
> my
> O-320 swallowed the #4 exhaust valve head. Whole lotta shakin' goin' on,
I
> can tell you! Careful balancing of reciprocating parts in any piece of
> machinery contributes to longevity of the bearings as well as any
> fatigue-sensitive parts. Engineers may be able to tell us the specific
> numbers related to this, but any old backyard shade-tree race car bulder
> can
> tell you the facts of reality.
>
> Wes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|