---------------------------------------------------------- Engines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/13/06: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:39 AM - WLAS [Please Read] (Matt Dralle) 1. 08:29 AM - Re: Lycoming Data Plate (Mike) 2. 10:06 AM - Re: Lycoming Data Plate (Kelly McMullen) 3. 10:15 AM - Re: Lycoming Data Plate (steve korney) 4. 11:13 AM - Re: Lycoming Data Plate (Kelly McMullen) 5. 02:26 PM - Re: Lycoming Data Plate (Charlie England) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:39:33 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Engines-List: WLAS [Please Read] Dear Listers, I sat down at the 'ol computer tonight to have a look at a few of the nice comments List Members have been including along with their Contributions this year. I was amazed at how many I found and even more amazed at some of the very nice things Listers have been saying about the Lists and how valuable the they are to them. I've included quite a few of these nice comments below. Please read over some of this great Lister feedback. No doubt you will find that you agree with at least one or two of those comments - maybe all of them! If you find that do, won't you please make a Contribution to support these Lists today!! Its fast and easy with the Matronics List Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Don't forget that I've now fully implemented the new *List Fund Raiser Squelch* feature that will automatically intercept any future iterations of my "Please Contribute" messages -- that is, *once you've made YOUR Contribution*! How cool is that? (Make sure the email address you enter along with your Contribution matches exactly your subscribed List email address. An exact match is how it works.) Thank you for your generous Contributions this year and for all the wonderful comments!! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ================= What Listers Are Saying (WLAS) ================ Absolutely the best deal on the Internet!! -Owen B I love The Matronics... -Robeto B My wife has her soaps & I've got my lists! -Hal B These lists are, indeed, the lifeline of our hobby. -Bob R The best source of information for my a/c. -Tony C The Zenith list is the first thing I read in the morning. -Herbert H You do more good than you can imagine. I wish I'd known about you while I was building my Kitfox, but you are still an after-the-fact resource. -Ben B ..an excellent site. -Ashley M The "List" has been the ultimate help for my Zenith CH 701 project!! -Brian U I appreciate the list being here for me. -Geoff H ..a great service. -William C The List continues to be an interesting and useful facility. -David M Your list is a constant goad to keep me working on my project. -Thomas S ..a great service. -Robert W The Pietenpol list is a great resource. -Benjamin W The Yak-list is Awesome! -James S ..great service. -Robert S The features you have implemented recently have you poised to knock out yahoo groups... -Danny D I like how your forum looks/works and the list service... -Ken E ..great service. -David P Very useful web site. -Wayne E ..a very valuable service. -Chris D Great sites... -Randall R I used to look at [that other] site also but it's gotten so cluttered with advertising that I've stopped looking at it. -Wayne E Without your services, the build would be a grope in the dark... -Fergus K The information and help I've received greatly outweighs the donation... -Lee P ..great service! -Christopher D I really don't think I could be building my plane without the wisdom I find on this list. -William G It really makes building a pleasure. -James P ..great service. -Doug W I'm getting near the end of my build (Europa tri XS) don't think I could have done it with out the help of the forum. -Stanislaus S Marvelous service. Couldn't have done it without you. -Jim G Love the list, this is a wonderful way to help others... -Michael S ..good service. -Derek L The list is responsible for helping me complete this project and educating me in the process. -Jeff D Definitely worth the donation. -Ron L ..great service to the aviation community. -Tony P I have been flying my plane for 5 years (RV-6) but I still get valuable information from this service. -Don N A very helpful site. -Roland S It's a great community to be part of. -David L Great sites. -John C A great place to find and share not only information but to meet people across the country and make lasting relationships. -Uncle Craig Great facility. -Peter H Its a great source of information! -Michael W Great improvements to the List... -Edward A Great service!!! -Rich D ..great resource! -William C ..excellent lists! -Michael S Couldn't have built my RV4 without the list. -Warren M ..a great service... -James N I would not have missed [the list] for anything during the building of my Europa. -Svein J ..another great year. -Robert D ..this [is an] essential builder's resource. -David A ..excellent service. -Gregory B I've learned a huge amount of "stuff" over the past year and look forward to it every day! -Smith M ..a great communication tool... -Jon M Finished building 5 years ago, but still are lurking on your great list! -Lothar K ..a valuable service. At 11:00 pm Matronics is the goto place for my RV questions. -Mike D ================= What Listers Are Saying (WLAS) ================ ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:35 AM PST US From: "Mike" Subject: RE: Engines-List: Lycoming Data Plate I would just like to add to what was written in the url below as it pertains to AD's on experimental aircraft. One point that was missed, if the part or assembly was originally certified there is no probation regarding modification or change to said parts. Following any change to the parts or assemblies the part would no longer conform to the original part number and design and therfore not be subject to the AD provided the logbook (legal document) entry showing the change and or modification. One other note: If you list the Lycoming O-320 as a Warp Space Jumper #007 when certifying your airplane and enter it in your log book that way, it is no longer a Lycoming O-320 as far a AD's go. The point I am trying to illustrate above is that AD's are for certified aircraft, engines, propellers, and accessories. Once modified or changed they are no longer certified, and therefore not subject to AD's because they are not listed on the AD (put forged pistons in said Lycoming O-320(legal as an experimental), it is no longer a Lycoming O-320 because forged pistons are not certified and therefore no longer subject to the AD because the engine is no longer a Lycoming O-320). If a part is unchanged in all respect as it relates to being certified then the compliance to the AD is mandatory. Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James R. Cunningham Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:45 AM Subject: Re: Engines-List: Lycoming Data Plate a url of interest: http://www.rollanet.org/~mopilots/stlouis/jan2005nws.htm -- 10/16/2006 -- 10/16/2006 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:28 AM PST US From: "Kelly McMullen" Subject: Re: Engines-List: Lycoming Data Plate It does however note that if the experimental aircraft received its operating limitations and certificate with a certified engine installed, then it should get a modified operating limitations when the engine is modified to make it no longer of approved type design. It would be wise for the repaiman signing the condition inspection to have reviewed ADs, so that you know if Lycoming has a crank problem in same model engine, and you have that crank, that you are risking crank failure if you don't heed the AD. As in use some common sense to ensure your engine truly is airworthy. On 11/13/06, Mike wrote: > > I would just like to add to what was written in the url below as it > pertains to AD's on experimental aircraft. One point that was missed, > if the part or assembly was originally certified there is no probation > regarding modification or change to said parts. Following any change to > the parts or assemblies the part would no longer conform to the original > part number and design and therfore not be subject to the AD provided > the logbook (legal document) entry showing the change and or > modification. > > One other note: If you list the Lycoming O-320 as a Warp Space Jumper > #007 when certifying your airplane and enter it in your log book that > way, it is no longer a Lycoming O-320 as far a AD's go. > > The point I am trying to illustrate above is that AD's are for certified > aircraft, engines, propellers, and accessories. Once modified or > changed they are no longer certified, and therefore not subject to AD's > because they are not listed on the AD (put forged pistons in said > Lycoming O-320(legal as an experimental), it is no longer a Lycoming > O-320 because forged pistons are not certified and therefore no longer > subject to the AD because the engine is no longer a Lycoming O-320). If > a part is unchanged in all respect as it relates to being certified then > the compliance to the AD is mandatory. > > Mike Larkin > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James R. > Cunningham > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:45 AM > To: engines-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Lycoming Data Plate > > > > a url of interest: > > http://www.rollanet.org/~mopilots/stlouis/jan2005nws.htm > > > -- > 10/16/2006 > > > -- > 10/16/2006 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:15:28 AM PST US From: "steve korney" Subject: RE: Engines-List: Lycoming Data Plate Mike ... With that said, all that is necessary is to remove the data plate, log it in the engine log book, and the engine is no longer certified ... Is that correct...? Best... Steve ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Mike" Subject: RE: Engines-List: Lycoming Data Plate I would just like to add to what was written in the url below as it pertains to AD's on experimental aircraft. One point that was missed, if the part or assembly was originally certified there is no probation regarding modification or change to said parts. Following any change to the parts or assemblies the part would no longer conform to the original part number and design and therfore not be subject to the AD provided the logbook (legal document) entry showing the change and or modification. One other note: If you list the Lycoming O-320 as a Warp Space Jumper #007 when certifying your airplane and enter it in your log book that way, it is no longer a Lycoming O-320 as far a AD's go. The point I am trying to illustrate above is that AD's are for certified aircraft, engines, propellers, and accessories. Once modified or changed they are no longer certified, and therefore not subject to AD's because they are not listed on the AD (put forged pistons in said Lycoming O-320(legal as an experimental), it is no longer a Lycoming O-320 because forged pistons are not certified and therefore no longer subject to the AD because the engine is no longer a Lycoming O-320). If a part is unchanged in all respect as it relates to being certified then the compliance to the AD is mandatory. Mike Larkin -----Original Message----- From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James R. Cunningham Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:45 AM Subject: Re: Engines-List: Lycoming Data Plate a url of interest: http://www.rollanet.org/~mopilots/stlouis/jan2005nws.htm -- 10/16/2006 -- 10/16/2006 _________________________________________________________________ Live Search! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:58 AM PST US From: "Kelly McMullen" Subject: Re: Engines-List: Lycoming Data Plate >From the url cited earlier: "The acting legal counsel also addressed the act of removing data plates to avoid compliance with AD's. His Memorandum states that the act of removing the data plate of a type-certificated product is addressed in Part 45. Section 45.13 of that Part prohibits removing data plates without the approval of the FAA. There are no exceptions granted in that Part for engines or propellers installed in amateur-built aircraft. Simply removing a data plate does not alter the type design or nature of the engine or propeller. " Don't blame me, the messenger, take it up with your FSDO. On 11/13/06, steve korney wrote: > > Mike ... > > With that said, all that is necessary is to remove the data plate, log it in > the engine log book, and the engine is no longer certified ... Is that > correct...? > > Best... Steve > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Mike" > To: > Subject: RE: Engines-List: Lycoming Data Plate > Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 09:28:54 -0700 > > > I would just like to add to what was written in the url below as it > pertains to AD's on experimental aircraft. One point that was missed, > if the part or assembly was originally certified there is no probation > regarding modification or change to said parts. Following any change to > the parts or assemblies the part would no longer conform to the original > part number and design and therfore not be subject to the AD provided > the logbook (legal document) entry showing the change and or > modification. > > One other note: If you list the Lycoming O-320 as a Warp Space Jumper > #007 when certifying your airplane and enter it in your log book that > way, it is no longer a Lycoming O-320 as far a AD's go. > > The point I am trying to illustrate above is that AD's are for certified > aircraft, engines, propellers, and accessories. Once modified or > changed they are no longer certified, and therefore not subject to AD's > because they are not listed on the AD (put forged pistons in said > Lycoming O-320(legal as an experimental), it is no longer a Lycoming > O-320 because forged pistons are not certified and therefore no longer > subject to the AD because the engine is no longer a Lycoming O-320). If > a part is unchanged in all respect as it relates to being certified then > the compliance to the AD is mandatory. > > Mike Larkin > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of James R. > Cunningham > Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 7:45 AM > To: engines-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Engines-List: Lycoming Data Plate > > > > a url of interest: > > http://www.rollanet.org/~mopilots/stlouis/jan2005nws.htm > > > -- > 10/16/2006 > > > -- > 10/16/2006 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Live Search! > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:26:38 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: Engines-List: Lycoming Data Plate Kelly McMullen wrote: > >> From the url cited earlier: > > "The acting legal counsel also addressed the act of removing data > plates to avoid compliance with AD's. His Memorandum states that the > act of removing the data plate of a type-certificated product is > addressed in Part 45. Section 45.13 of that Part prohibits removing > data plates without the approval of the FAA. There are no exceptions > granted in that Part for engines or propellers installed in > amateur-built aircraft. Simply removing a data plate does not alter > the type design or nature of the engine or propeller. " > Don't blame me, the messenger, take it up with your FSDO. > > > On 11/13/06, steve korney wrote: > >> >> >> Mike ... >> >> With that said, all that is necessary is to remove the data plate, >> log it in >> the engine log book, and the engine is no longer certified ... Is that >> correct...? >> >> Best... Steve > >snipped> Unless you have the misfortune to live in that particular FSDO area, the document in question is nothing but an example of the thinly disguised anarchy that serves as the FAA. (A good thing, in my opinion.) The FSDO inspector here *took* the Lyc dataplate from my neighbor when he did the inspection on a new homebuilt design. When my neighbor hung the same engine on another new airframe (an RV-8, this time), the same FSDO wanted to know where his dataplate was. (Answer: 'You took it.') I'm sure that there is diversity of opinion among FSDO's on a 'certified' part keeping its status when hung on an experimental, but over the 15+ years I've been involved with homebuilts the most common position I've seen is that the part loses its certified status the moment it becomes part of a non-certified system. Consider the underlying logic: in the certified world, Lyc makes dozens of O-320's but only a few are typically legal for a particular airframe because the rest haven't been tested on that airframe. Similarly, only a handful of propellers are certified for a particular engine on a particular airframe. If you create an untested combination, you don't know if it's safe until it's tested and 'the paperwork is done'. No 'paperwork' has ever been done on any certified engine that's been hung on an RV, so how can it be proven to the bureaucracy that it's *legally* safe? The only perceivable logic in giving a shorter test period when using a 'certified' engine/prop combination on a homebuilt is that you are at least starting with two parts that are known to work ok together (but still a legal unknown on a homebuilt). Charlie