Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:45 AM - Re: Engine Running Rough (Doug Dodson)
2. 05:46 AM - Auto plugs (Bob)
3. 06:18 AM - Re: Auto plugs (n801bh@netzero.com)
4. 06:47 AM - Re: Engine Running Rough (Kelly McMullen)
5. 06:51 AM - Re: Engine Running Rough (Mike)
6. 06:59 AM - Re: Engine Running Rough (Wayne Sweet)
7. 07:01 AM - Re: Auto plugs (Wayne Sweet)
8. 07:41 AM - Battery choice (Peter C)
9. 07:50 AM - Re: Auto plugs (Daniel Tappan)
10. 08:15 AM - Re: Engine Running Rough (jrc)
11. 08:19 AM - Re: Auto plugs (Archie)
12. 09:52 AM - Re: Engine Running Rough (Mike)
13. 10:29 AM - Re: Engine Running Rough (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
14. 10:43 AM - Re: Engine Running Rough (Kelly McMullen)
15. 11:15 AM - Re: Battery choice (NYTerminat@aol.com)
16. 01:01 PM - Re: Engine Running Rough (Mike)
17. 03:26 PM - Re: Auto plugs (Noel Loveys)
18. 03:42 PM - Re: Auto plugs (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
19. 04:34 PM - Re: Engine Running Rough (steve korney)
20. 04:38 PM - Re: Auto plugs (steve korney)
21. 05:21 PM - Re: Engine Running Rough (Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis))
22. 05:27 PM - Re: Auto plugs (Mike)
23. 05:30 PM - Re: Engine Running Rough (Mike)
24. 06:05 PM - Re: Engine Running Rough (Neal George)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Engine Running Rough |
There are many more benefits to a dual electrical system than just the
ignition system. If a required vacuum system is replaced by a second
battery and/or alternator, then failure of a primary (electric) gyro is
reduced dramatically. The additional cost, weight and complexity is
negligible (and for some designs, even negative).
Magnetos are far more failure prone than CDI ignition systems. One mag, one
EI means you will be spending time and money on the mag for to keep the
redundancy. Parts commonality is a benefit of two identical systems.
Douglas L. Dodson, Jr.
Glasair II-S FT
Flight Test Engineer, CFI-A,G
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Grant Piper
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
Electronic ignition is OK,but try hand-swinging when the battery is flat or
the starter is broken!
Also, if you get no 'mag drop' when running an EI setup, then what is the
benefit of dual EI? Why not just keep one mag and have one EI, then there
is no need for dual busses, the extra complexity and associated weight etc.
Just my simple farmer way of thinking of things....
Grant Piper
RV-4 VH-PIO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kelly McMullen" <apilot2@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
>
> Depends on your definition of better. There isn't an electronic
> ignition made that will fire without a power source. Lose your
> electrics and the engine WILL quit. OK in a car, not okay in a plane.
> A magneto provides plenty of voltage to fire the proper gaps for
> aircraft plugs at all engine speeds above idle. Bureaucracy has
> nothing to do with it. Reliability is the prime issue with aircraft,
> and there simply isn't an ignition made that is more reliable than a
> pair of magnetos when you consider electrical failure a reasonable
> possibility.
>
> On 2/18/07, Archie <archie97@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Without bursting bubbles. or offending the beaurocratic FAA,
>> there is nothing better currently for any internal combustion engine
>> than electronic ignition.
>> Just try firing a .080 gap plug with a current magneto.(just one reason)
>> Archie Frangoudis
>> Archie's Racing Service
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Noel Loveys
>> To: engines-list@matronics.com
>> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:47 AM
>> Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
>>
>>
>> The reasons are laid out, basically for passenger carrying aircraft.
>> They
>> require redundancy and separate powered ignition systems that won't go
>> black
>> in the event of a catastrophic electrical problem. On the other hand yes
>> there are some great CDI ignitions that help the engines run better than
>> they were designed to. For amateur built aircraft I doubt there is
>> anything
>> better.
>>
>>
>>
>> Noel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 2
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Didn't have time to read all of the last comments but how does an engine
act
with firing auto plugs with a magneto?
At the cost of aviation shielded plugs, changing to auto plugs is an
incentive. Any need to change plug gaps?
Bob, Wichita
Message 3
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NOPE !!!!!!
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
-- "Bob" <rfg842@cox.net> wrote:
Didn't have time to read all of the last comments but how does an engine
act with firing auto plugs with a magneto? At the cost of aviation shie
lded plugs, changing to auto plugs is an incentive. Any need to change
========================
========================
========================
========================
=======
<html>NOPE !!!!!!<BR><BR><BR>Ben Haas<BR>N801BH<BR>www.haaspowerair
.com<BR><BR>-- "Bob" <rfg842@cox.net> wrote:<BR>
<TABLE id=INCREDIMAINTABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="10
0%" border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD id=INCREDITEXTREGION style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; CURSOR: auto; FONT-
FAMILY: Arial" width="100%">
<DIV>Didn't have time to read all of the last comments but how does an e
ngine act with firing auto plugs with a magneto?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>At the cost of aviation shielded plugs, changing to auto plugs is a
n incentive. Any need to change plug gaps?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bob, Wichita</DIV></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD id=INCREDIFOOTER width="100%">
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%">
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD width="100%"></TD>
<TD id=INCREDISOUND vAlign=bottom align=middle></TD>
<TD id=INCREDIANIM vAlign=bottom align=middle></TD></TR></TBODY></
TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><SPAN id=IncrediStamp><SPAN dir=ltr>
<A href="http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id=96917"><IMG alt="
Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!" hspace=0 src="http://www2.incre
dimail.com/contents/stamps/imstp_heads_en.gif" align=baseline border=
0></A></SPAN></SPAN> <PRE><B><FONT face="courier new,courier" color=
#000000 size=2>
========================
===========
t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List</A>
========================
===========
tronics.com</A>
========================
===========
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</b></font></pre></body></html>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Running Rough |
An interesting opinion, not based in fact. A dual electrical system
requires two alternators(heavier than a vacuum pump and one
alternator), two batteries(Significant extra wt), two totally separate
buses. If you interconnect them, you leave the possibility of one
failure taking out both systems. If you don't interconnect you have to
be able to live with what is on either bus by itself, which means you
will need some additional duplication. That is not simpler, nor less
complex. I have yet to see a failure-proof electrical system. Better
to have enough to keep flying when(not if) the electrics fail.
I have yet to see a CDI system that is more reliable than properly
maintained magnetos, in 35 years of flying and maintaining aircraft
and autos. The P-Mag/Emag(and others) may change that, eventually.
They have been talking certification for several years. Prism from
GAMI holds a lot of promise when it gets certified.
The main mag failures you see are when folks try to skimp and run
magnetos 1000+ hours without service. They should be opened and
inspected every 500 hours. Sometimes folks have to relearn hard
lessons all over again. You are free to do that with experimental
aircraft.
KM
A&P/IA
CP ASMEL-I
On 2/20/07, Doug Dodson <douglas.dodson@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> There are many more benefits to a dual electrical system than just the
> ignition system. If a required vacuum system is replaced by a second
> battery and/or alternator, then failure of a primary (electric) gyro is
> reduced dramatically. The additional cost, weight and complexity is
> negligible (and for some designs, even negative).
>
> Magnetos are far more failure prone than CDI ignition systems. One mag, one
> EI means you will be spending time and money on the mag for to keep the
> redundancy. Parts commonality is a benefit of two identical systems.
>
> Douglas L. Dodson, Jr.
> Glasair II-S FT
> Flight Test Engineer, CFI-A,G
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Engine Running Rough |
I agree.
Mike Larkin
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug
Dodson
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 6:45 AM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
<douglas.dodson@pobox.com>
There are many more benefits to a dual electrical system than just the
ignition system. If a required vacuum system is replaced by a second
battery and/or alternator, then failure of a primary (electric) gyro is
reduced dramatically. The additional cost, weight and complexity is
negligible (and for some designs, even negative).
Magnetos are far more failure prone than CDI ignition systems. One mag,
one
EI means you will be spending time and money on the mag for to keep the
redundancy. Parts commonality is a benefit of two identical systems.
Douglas L. Dodson, Jr.
Glasair II-S FT
Flight Test Engineer, CFI-A,G
--
2/8/2007
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Running Rough |
I agree. My plane also does not have the stupid vacuum systems either. Dynon
D10A EFIS WITH internal battery backup. Is it not time to move past "the
Past" and come into the 21st Century. I had the chance to fly in a Columbia
350 with the older Avidyne glass panel; very nice. BUT IT STILL HAS A VACUUM
SYSTEM! GEZZZZZ!
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Dodson" <douglas.dodson@pobox.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
> <douglas.dodson@pobox.com>
>
> There are many more benefits to a dual electrical system than just the
> ignition system. If a required vacuum system is replaced by a second
> battery and/or alternator, then failure of a primary (electric) gyro is
> reduced dramatically. The additional cost, weight and complexity is
> negligible (and for some designs, even negative).
>
> Magnetos are far more failure prone than CDI ignition systems. One mag,
> one
> EI means you will be spending time and money on the mag for to keep the
> redundancy. Parts commonality is a benefit of two identical systems.
>
> Douglas L. Dodson, Jr.
> Glasair II-S FT
> Flight Test Engineer, CFI-A,G
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Grant Piper
> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 12:13 AM
> To: engines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
>
>
> <grant.piper@bigpond.com>
>
> Electronic ignition is OK,but try hand-swinging when the battery is flat
> or
> the starter is broken!
>
> Also, if you get no 'mag drop' when running an EI setup, then what is the
> benefit of dual EI? Why not just keep one mag and have one EI, then
> there
> is no need for dual busses, the extra complexity and associated weight
> etc.
> Just my simple farmer way of thinking of things....
>
> Grant Piper
> RV-4 VH-PIO
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kelly McMullen" <apilot2@gmail.com>
> To: <engines-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 3:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
>
>
>>
>> Depends on your definition of better. There isn't an electronic
>> ignition made that will fire without a power source. Lose your
>> electrics and the engine WILL quit. OK in a car, not okay in a plane.
>> A magneto provides plenty of voltage to fire the proper gaps for
>> aircraft plugs at all engine speeds above idle. Bureaucracy has
>> nothing to do with it. Reliability is the prime issue with aircraft,
>> and there simply isn't an ignition made that is more reliable than a
>> pair of magnetos when you consider electrical failure a reasonable
>> possibility.
>>
>> On 2/18/07, Archie <archie97@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Without bursting bubbles. or offending the beaurocratic FAA,
>>> there is nothing better currently for any internal combustion engine
>>> than electronic ignition.
>>> Just try firing a .080 gap plug with a current magneto.(just one reason)
>>> Archie Frangoudis
>>> Archie's Racing Service
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Noel Loveys
>>> To: engines-list@matronics.com
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:47 AM
>>> Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
>>>
>>>
>>> The reasons are laid out, basically for passenger carrying aircraft.
>>> They
>>> require redundancy and separate powered ignition systems that won't go
>>> black
>>> in the event of a catastrophic electrical problem. On the other hand
>>> yes
>>> there are some great CDI ignitions that help the engines run better than
>>> they were designed to. For amateur built aircraft I doubt there is
>>> anything
>>> better.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Noel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 7
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First problem, the ignition harness will not work with auto plugs. To
make things simple, just get LSE's CDI dual system, Dynon EFIS D10A or
whatever EFIS you like and be done with "the Past".
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob
To: engines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:44 AM
Subject: Engines-List: Auto plugs
Didn't have time to read all of the last comments but how does
an engine act with firing auto plugs with a magneto?
At the cost of aviation shielded plugs, changing to auto plugs
is an incentive. Any need to change plug gaps?
Bob, Wichita
Message 8
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In the experimental environment for the average low tech, low power (but
also low temp winters) requirements (Rotax 912S 100hp), is the extra
expense of the RG batteries worth it?
I once put an Odyssey 680 in a Mazda 13b aircraft replacing a cheap
utility battery and wasn't all that impressed with cranking capacity and
shelf life.
When a friend wanted to order a larger RG for his 210 the local flying
club maintenance guy said they tried them in their school aircraft and
also didn't stay with them.
What is the data on these batteries?
Is "Immobilized electrolyte" the same as Recombinant gas?
Thanks
Peter
Message 9
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: NOPE !!!!!!
Hey Bob..NOPE AGAIN !. ..the WIRES ends are different and each engine is designed
or reguires a specific aircraft plug.The "reach" or distance the plug sticks
down into the cylender is different on some plugs. Also There is a "Heat
range"for different plugs as I remember (Can anyone out there add to this..I
forgot what I knew!)..
Having said all that .some of the older aircraft, Tcraft ect. used iesman
mags and DID use auto spark plugs.They worked for low , slow older aircraft
but were not considered a great mag.
---------------------------------
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Running Rough |
Guys, I fly a non-electric J-3. My goal is to keep it as light as
possible. In what way would a dual electrical system benefit me?
:-)
----- Original Message -----
>
> There are many more benefits to a dual electrical system than just the
> ignition system.
Message 11
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----- Original Message -----
From: Bob
To: engines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 8:44 AM
Subject: Engines-List: Auto plugs
Didn't have time to read all of the last comments but how does
an engine act with firing auto plugs with a magneto?
We have done it for customers. They like it $$$$$.
At the cost of aviation shielded plugs, changing to auto plugs
is an incentive. Any need to change plug gaps?
As magnetos will not fire a large gap, we have only set them at
.020.
We have set electronics to .070/.080 to maximize spark.
(and they do not need a wind-up spring. aka: impulse coupling)
Bob, Wichita
Message 12
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| Subject: | Engine Running Rough |
Kelly,
If you use have a dual electrical system it requires two alternators
yes. A small 20 amp B&C alternator is very close to the weight of a
vacuum pump, drive, regulator, and required plumbing. And the B&C
alternator in my very small 13,000+ hours of flying and my 30 year of
aircraft maintenance shows the it should be much more reliable. If you
need a 30 amp hour or more battery like a G-35 for starting then two
smaller Odyssey batteries will give you the same start power for less
weight. And if you are as paranoid as you sound then an old fashion
gang switch for the system inter connect with a safety strap for you
will keep the system disconnected in flight. As for your following
statements about reliability, almost everything works without failure if
properly maintained. The electrical system is in my experience the most
under maintained system in an airplane. How many Cessna's have you
looked at where ALL of the switches are 30 plus years old. The simple
fact is that most people don't do anything to an electrical system until
something fails. As far as fail proof, I fly airplanes of all types;
little, middle, and big over 800 hours a year and so far I have not
experienced a total electrical failure to a dark plane. As for the
P-mag, I recovered an RV-7 from a highway two weekends ago when Both
P-mags failed. Guess what, the electrical system worked perfectly......
Mike Larkin
ATP MEL, Com SEL, Many Types Rat., A&P, & IE
Lancair Legacy Build and Flown by Me
TS-11 Iskra Restored and Flown by Me
Kitfox IV re-engined and Flown by Me
A320/319 Flown by Me....
Ps- I only get this way with very very closed minded people.....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
An interesting opinion, not based in fact. A dual electrical system
requires two alternators(heavier than a vacuum pump and one
alternator), two batteries(Significant extra wt), two totally separate
buses. If you interconnect them, you leave the possibility of one
failure taking out both systems. If you don't interconnect you have to
be able to live with what is on either bus by itself, which means you
will need some additional duplication. That is not simpler, nor less
complex. I have yet to see a failure-proof electrical system. Better
to have enough to keep flying when(not if) the electrics fail.
I have yet to see a CDI system that is more reliable than properly
maintained magnetos, in 35 years of flying and maintaining aircraft
and autos. The P-Mag/Emag(and others) may change that, eventually.
They have been talking certification for several years. Prism from
GAMI holds a lot of promise when it gets certified.
The main mag failures you see are when folks try to skimp and run
magnetos 1000+ hours without service. They should be opened and
inspected every 500 hours. Sometimes folks have to relearn hard
lessons all over again. You are free to do that with experimental
aircraft.
KM
A&P/IA
CP ASMEL-I
--
2/8/2007
Message 13
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| Subject: | Engine Running Rough |
Hello Mike,
If this is the same incident I don't think the Pmags actually both
failed, although the effect was similar. What I think probably happened
was the timing on one of the P mags went way advanced. In this scenario
the second Pmag is just along for the ride, i.e it sparks but the charge
has already been lit at that point and hence doesn't do anything.
This is still the subject of investigation as we speak...I certainly
hope they find it 'cus I run Pmags myself.
I think kelly's point was that the traditional magnetoes are more
reliable than Pmags.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
Kelly,
If you use have a dual electrical system it requires two alternators
yes. A small 20 amp B&C alternator is very close to the weight of a
vacuum pump, drive, regulator, and required plumbing. And the B&C
alternator in my very small 13,000+ hours of flying and my 30 year of
aircraft maintenance shows the it should be much more reliable. If you
need a 30 amp hour or more battery like a G-35 for starting then two
smaller Odyssey batteries will give you the same start power for less
weight. And if you are as paranoid as you sound then an old fashion
gang switch for the system inter connect with a safety strap for you
will keep the system disconnected in flight. As for your following
statements about reliability, almost everything works without failure if
properly maintained. The electrical system is in my experience the most
under maintained system in an airplane. How many Cessna's have you
looked at where ALL of the switches are 30 plus years old. The simple
fact is that most people don't do anything to an electrical system until
something fails. As far as fail proof, I fly airplanes of all types;
little, middle, and big over 800 hours a year and so far I have not
experienced a total electrical failure to a dark plane. As for the
P-mag, I recovered an RV-7 from a highway two weekends ago when Both
P-mags failed. Guess what, the electrical system worked perfectly......
Mike Larkin
ATP MEL, Com SEL, Many Types Rat., A&P, & IE
Lancair Legacy Build and Flown by Me
TS-11 Iskra Restored and Flown by Me
Kitfox IV re-engined and Flown by Me
A320/319 Flown by Me....
Ps- I only get this way with very very closed minded people.....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
An interesting opinion, not based in fact. A dual electrical system
requires two alternators(heavier than a vacuum pump and one alternator),
two batteries(Significant extra wt), two totally separate buses. If you
interconnect them, you leave the possibility of one failure taking out
both systems. If you don't interconnect you have to be able to live with
what is on either bus by itself, which means you will need some
additional duplication. That is not simpler, nor less complex. I have
yet to see a failure-proof electrical system. Better to have enough to
keep flying when(not if) the electrics fail.
I have yet to see a CDI system that is more reliable than properly
maintained magnetos, in 35 years of flying and maintaining aircraft and
autos. The P-Mag/Emag(and others) may change that, eventually.
They have been talking certification for several years. Prism from GAMI
holds a lot of promise when it gets certified.
The main mag failures you see are when folks try to skimp and run
magnetos 1000+ hours without service. They should be opened and
inspected every 500 hours. Sometimes folks have to relearn hard lessons
all over again. You are free to do that with experimental aircraft.
KM
A&P/IA
CP ASMEL-I
--
2/8/2007
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Running Rough |
Mike,
Unlike you, I'm not trying to persuade anyone that one system is
better than the other. I've stated anyone can select what they want in
experimental and make their own judgements.
However, I flew for over 20 years in the Alaskan bush. That colors my
opinion. I don't have any reason to fly a GA plane routinely in hard
IFR(I choose not to fly for hire)...that also colors my opinion of
electric systems. Gee...2 Pmags fail in flight...who da thunkit!
Again, Pmag isn't available for 6 cylinders. Fact.......last I checked
Barrett Precsion Engines would not supply an engine with electronic
ignition, and their dyno tests showed less horsepower and hotter CHT
with electronic ignition(IIRC). (they've built and tested more engines
in a year than anyone here will in a lifetime). I'm open to the idea,
but not impressed with the current products on the market. I just was
refuting the claim by someone else that CD or other EI was better than
dual mags. Yes, you can minimize the weight of two electrical systems,
but it still is more complex than a single system with a vacuum pump
powering one gyro, and if it makes you feel better you can add a
second electric AI. I have experienced total electric failure in two
different aircraft in flight and others on the ground, on well
maintained aircraft. Zero vacuum pump failures. Everyone has different
exeriences
There also is some very careful testing of electronic ignition against
dual mags on the Cafe400 website..well instrumented, etc. For the
narrow spectrum of high altitude, less than 70% power, dual EI showed
some added speed and fuel economy, at the expense of higher CHT. For
all higher power power and altitudes below 10,000 ft, the dual mags
were superior in all instances.
http://cafefoundation.org/v2/research_reports.php
On 2/20/07, Mike <mlas@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Kelly,
>
> If you use have a dual electrical system it requires two alternators
> yes. A small 20 amp B&C alternator is very close to the weight of a
> vacuum pump, drive, regulator, and required plumbing. And the B&C
> alternator in my very small 13,000+ hours of flying and my 30 year of
> aircraft maintenance shows the it should be much more reliable. If you
> need a 30 amp hour or more battery like a G-35 for starting then two
> smaller Odyssey batteries will give you the same start power for less
> weight. And if you are as paranoid as you sound then an old fashion
> gang switch for the system inter connect with a safety strap for you
> will keep the system disconnected in flight. As for your following
> statements about reliability, almost everything works without failure if
> properly maintained. The electrical system is in my experience the most
> under maintained system in an airplane. How many Cessna's have you
> looked at where ALL of the switches are 30 plus years old. The simple
> fact is that most people don't do anything to an electrical system until
> something fails. As far as fail proof, I fly airplanes of all types;
> little, middle, and big over 800 hours a year and so far I have not
> experienced a total electrical failure to a dark plane. As for the
> P-mag, I recovered an RV-7 from a highway two weekends ago when Both
> P-mags failed. Guess what, the electrical system worked perfectly......
>
> Mike Larkin
>
> ATP MEL, Com SEL, Many Types Rat., A&P, & IE
>
> Lancair Legacy Build and Flown by Me
> TS-11 Iskra Restored and Flown by Me
> Kitfox IV re-engined and Flown by Me
> A320/319 Flown by Me....
>
> Ps- I only get this way with very very closed minded people.....
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
> McMullen
> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:47 AM
> To: engines-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
>
>
> An interesting opinion, not based in fact. A dual electrical system
> requires two alternators(heavier than a vacuum pump and one
> alternator), two batteries(Significant extra wt), two totally separate
> buses. If you interconnect them, you leave the possibility of one
> failure taking out both systems. If you don't interconnect you have to
> be able to live with what is on either bus by itself, which means you
> will need some additional duplication. That is not simpler, nor less
> complex. I have yet to see a failure-proof electrical system. Better
> to have enough to keep flying when(not if) the electrics fail.
> I have yet to see a CDI system that is more reliable than properly
> maintained magnetos, in 35 years of flying and maintaining aircraft
> and autos. The P-Mag/Emag(and others) may change that, eventually.
> They have been talking certification for several years. Prism from
> GAMI holds a lot of promise when it gets certified.
> The main mag failures you see are when folks try to skimp and run
> magnetos 1000+ hours without service. They should be opened and
> inspected every 500 hours. Sometimes folks have to relearn hard
> lessons all over again. You are free to do that with experimental
> aircraft.
> KM
> A&P/IA
> CP ASMEL-I
>
> --
> 2/8/2007
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Battery choice |
Peter,
I'm using a Odyssey 680 for my 912ULS and am quite pleased with it. I have
been flying up to the middle of January, now I am snowed in.
Bob Spudis
In a message dated 2/20/2007 10:42:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
peterc@pipcom.com writes:
In the experimental environment for the average low tech, low power (but
also low temp winters) requirements (Rotax 912S 100hp), is the extra expense of
the RG batteries worth it?
I once put an Odyssey 680 in a Mazda 13b aircraft replacing a cheap utility
battery and wasn't all that impressed with cranking capacity and shelf life.
When a friend wanted to order a larger RG for his 210 the local flying club
maintenance guy said they tried them in their school aircraft and also didn't
stay with them.
What is the data on these batteries?
Is "Immobilized electrolyte" the same as Recombinant gas?
Thanks
Peter
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Engine Running Rough |
Frank,
To the best of my knowledge you are correct. One of the P-mags came off
time for some unknown reason (we think induced by temperature) and the
other was along for the ride.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
Hello Mike,
If this is the same incident I don't think the Pmags actually both
failed, although the effect was similar. What I think probably happened
was the timing on one of the P mags went way advanced. In this scenario
the second Pmag is just along for the ride, i.e it sparks but the charge
has already been lit at that point and hence doesn't do anything.
This is still the subject of investigation as we speak...I certainly
hope they find it 'cus I run Pmags myself.
I think kelly's point was that the traditional magnetoes are more
reliable than Pmags.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
Kelly,
If you use have a dual electrical system it requires two alternators
yes. A small 20 amp B&C alternator is very close to the weight of a
vacuum pump, drive, regulator, and required plumbing. And the B&C
alternator in my very small 13,000+ hours of flying and my 30 year of
aircraft maintenance shows the it should be much more reliable. If you
need a 30 amp hour or more battery like a G-35 for starting then two
smaller Odyssey batteries will give you the same start power for less
weight. And if you are as paranoid as you sound then an old fashion
gang switch for the system inter connect with a safety strap for you
will keep the system disconnected in flight. As for your following
statements about reliability, almost everything works without failure if
properly maintained. The electrical system is in my experience the most
under maintained system in an airplane. How many Cessna's have you
looked at where ALL of the switches are 30 plus years old. The simple
fact is that most people don't do anything to an electrical system until
something fails. As far as fail proof, I fly airplanes of all types;
little, middle, and big over 800 hours a year and so far I have not
experienced a total electrical failure to a dark plane. As for the
P-mag, I recovered an RV-7 from a highway two weekends ago when Both
P-mags failed. Guess what, the electrical system worked perfectly......
Mike Larkin
ATP MEL, Com SEL, Many Types Rat., A&P, & IE
Lancair Legacy Build and Flown by Me
TS-11 Iskra Restored and Flown by Me
Kitfox IV re-engined and Flown by Me
A320/319 Flown by Me....
Ps- I only get this way with very very closed minded people.....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
An interesting opinion, not based in fact. A dual electrical system
requires two alternators(heavier than a vacuum pump and one alternator),
two batteries(Significant extra wt), two totally separate buses. If you
interconnect them, you leave the possibility of one failure taking out
both systems. If you don't interconnect you have to be able to live with
what is on either bus by itself, which means you will need some
additional duplication. That is not simpler, nor less complex. I have
yet to see a failure-proof electrical system. Better to have enough to
keep flying when(not if) the electrics fail.
I have yet to see a CDI system that is more reliable than properly
maintained magnetos, in 35 years of flying and maintaining aircraft and
autos. The P-Mag/Emag(and others) may change that, eventually.
They have been talking certification for several years. Prism from GAMI
holds a lot of promise when it gets certified.
The main mag failures you see are when folks try to skimp and run
magnetos 1000+ hours without service. They should be opened and
inspected every 500 hours. Sometimes folks have to relearn hard lessons
all over again. You are free to do that with experimental aircraft.
KM
A&P/IA
CP ASMEL-I
--
2/8/2007
--
2/8/2007
--
2/8/2007
Message 17
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One of th4 things I've never tried to do is replace the plugs on a plane
with anything other than the same type of plugs that came off.
Generally we
used to inspect and clean the plugs every 50 hr. (commercial) and return
them to service. At better than $50.00 a pop we weren't too interested
in
swapping plugs at the drop of a hat. the one rule we did use was if we
dropped a plug, the never happened, the second drop would be in the oval
filing cabinet.
Good stuff but not why I'm replying... As I said I never replaced a plug
with anything but the same type. so I am wondering if the thread and
reach
of an automotive plug will even fit into the hole??
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
Sweet
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Auto plugs
First problem, the ignition harness will not work with auto plugs. To
make
things simple, just get LSE's CDI dual system, Dynon EFIS D10A or
whatever
EFIS you like and be done with "the Past".
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob <mailto:rfg842@cox.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:44 AM
Subject: Engines-List: Auto plugs
Didn't have time to read all of the last comments but how does an engine
act
with firing auto plugs with a magneto?
At the cost of aviation shielded plugs, changing to auto plugs is an
incentive. Any need to change plug gaps?
Bob, Wichita
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Need an adaptor and a standard 3/4" auto plugs fit Lycomings.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel
Loveys
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Auto plugs
One of th4 things I've never tried to do is replace the plugs on a plane
with anything other than the same type of plugs that came off.
Generally we used to inspect and clean the plugs every 50 hr.
(commercial) and return them to service. At better than $50.00 a pop we
weren't too interested in swapping plugs at the drop of a hat. the one
rule we did use was if we dropped a plug, the never happened, the second
drop would be in the oval filing cabinet.
Good stuff but not why I'm replying... As I said I never replaced a plug
with anything but the same type. so I am wondering if the thread and
reach of an automotive plug will even fit into the hole??
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
Sweet
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:30 AM
To: engines-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Auto plugs
First problem, the ignition harness will not work with auto
plugs. To make things simple, just get LSE's CDI dual system, Dynon EFIS
D10A or whatever EFIS you like and be done with "the Past".
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob <mailto:rfg842@cox.net>
To: engines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:44 AM
Subject: Engines-List: Auto plugs
Didn't have time to read all of the last comments but how does an engine
act with firing auto plugs with a magneto?
At the cost of aviation shielded plugs, changing to auto plugs is an
incentive. Any need to change plug gaps?
Bob, Wichita
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| Subject: | Engine Running Rough |
To the best of my knowledge you are correct. One of the P-mags came off
time for some unknown reason.....
That's not good to hear.....If they knew the reason, they could fix it....If
they don't know the reason .... Well, then what?
Best... Steve
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mike" <mlas@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
Frank,
To the best of my knowledge you are correct. One of the P-mags came off
time for some unknown reason (we think induced by temperature) and the
other was along for the ride.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
Hello Mike,
If this is the same incident I don't think the Pmags actually both
failed, although the effect was similar. What I think probably happened
was the timing on one of the P mags went way advanced. In this scenario
the second Pmag is just along for the ride, i.e it sparks but the charge
has already been lit at that point and hence doesn't do anything.
This is still the subject of investigation as we speak...I certainly
hope they find it 'cus I run Pmags myself.
I think kelly's point was that the traditional magnetoes are more
reliable than Pmags.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
Kelly,
If you use have a dual electrical system it requires two alternators
yes. A small 20 amp B&C alternator is very close to the weight of a
vacuum pump, drive, regulator, and required plumbing. And the B&C
alternator in my very small 13,000+ hours of flying and my 30 year of
aircraft maintenance shows the it should be much more reliable. If you
need a 30 amp hour or more battery like a G-35 for starting then two
smaller Odyssey batteries will give you the same start power for less
weight. And if you are as paranoid as you sound then an old fashion
gang switch for the system inter connect with a safety strap for you
will keep the system disconnected in flight. As for your following
statements about reliability, almost everything works without failure if
properly maintained. The electrical system is in my experience the most
under maintained system in an airplane. How many Cessna's have you
looked at where ALL of the switches are 30 plus years old. The simple
fact is that most people don't do anything to an electrical system until
something fails. As far as fail proof, I fly airplanes of all types;
little, middle, and big over 800 hours a year and so far I have not
experienced a total electrical failure to a dark plane. As for the
P-mag, I recovered an RV-7 from a highway two weekends ago when Both
P-mags failed. Guess what, the electrical system worked perfectly......
Mike Larkin
ATP MEL, Com SEL, Many Types Rat., A&P, & IE
Lancair Legacy Build and Flown by Me
TS-11 Iskra Restored and Flown by Me
Kitfox IV re-engined and Flown by Me
A320/319 Flown by Me....
Ps- I only get this way with very very closed minded people.....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
An interesting opinion, not based in fact. A dual electrical system
requires two alternators(heavier than a vacuum pump and one alternator),
two batteries(Significant extra wt), two totally separate buses. If you
interconnect them, you leave the possibility of one failure taking out
both systems. If you don't interconnect you have to be able to live with
what is on either bus by itself, which means you will need some
additional duplication. That is not simpler, nor less complex. I have
yet to see a failure-proof electrical system. Better to have enough to
keep flying when(not if) the electrics fail.
I have yet to see a CDI system that is more reliable than properly
maintained magnetos, in 35 years of flying and maintaining aircraft and
autos. The P-Mag/Emag(and others) may change that, eventually.
They have been talking certification for several years. Prism from GAMI
holds a lot of promise when it gets certified.
The main mag failures you see are when folks try to skimp and run
magnetos 1000+ hours without service. They should be opened and
inspected every 500 hours. Sometimes folks have to relearn hard lessons
all over again. You are free to do that with experimental aircraft.
KM
A&P/IA
CP ASMEL-I
--
2/8/2007
--
2/8/2007
--
2/8/2007
_________________________________________________________________
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Message 20
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Some of the newer Lycoming cylinders are made to accept the 3/4 reach 14 MM
auto plugs.....
Best... Steve
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Hinde, Frank George (Corvallis)" <frank.hinde@hp.com>
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Auto plugs
Need an adaptor and a standard 3/4" auto plugs fit Lycomings.
Frank
________________________________
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel
Loveys
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Auto plugs
One of th4 things I've never tried to do is replace the plugs on a plane
with anything other than the same type of plugs that came off.
Generally we used to inspect and clean the plugs every 50 hr.
(commercial) and return them to service. At better than $50.00 a pop we
weren't too interested in swapping plugs at the drop of a hat. the one
rule we did use was if we dropped a plug, the never happened, the second
drop would be in the oval filing cabinet.
Good stuff but not why I'm replying... As I said I never replaced a plug
with anything but the same type. so I am wondering if the thread and
reach of an automotive plug will even fit into the hole??
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne
Sweet
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:30 AM
To: engines-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Auto plugs
First problem, the ignition harness will not work with auto
plugs. To make things simple, just get LSE's CDI dual system, Dynon EFIS
D10A or whatever EFIS you like and be done with "the Past".
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob <mailto:rfg842@cox.net>
To: engines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 5:44 AM
Subject: Engines-List: Auto plugs
Didn't have time to read all of the last comments but how does an engine
act with firing auto plugs with a magneto?
At the cost of aviation shielded plugs, changing to auto plugs is an
incentive. Any need to change plug gaps?
Bob, Wichita
Add FUN to your email - CLICK HERE!
<http://www.incredimail.com/index.asp?id'917>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List">http://www.matron
ics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Engine Running Rough |
They may not know for absolute sure but there is a failure mode they
found that allows the unit with certain software versions to lose its
timing. There is a sevice bulletin on the Emag website about it.
It certainly makes sense and fits the description of the issues on the
downed airplane. I also had the same issues but my engine did not
actually quit.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve
korney
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 4:34 PM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
--> <s_korney@hotmail.com>
To the best of my knowledge you are correct. One of the P-mags came off
time for some unknown reason.....
That's not good to hear.....If they knew the reason, they could fix
it....If they don't know the reason .... Well, then what?
Best... Steve
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Mike" <mlas@cox.net>
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
Frank,
To the best of my knowledge you are correct. One of the P-mags came off
time for some unknown reason (we think induced by temperature) and the
other was along for the ride.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
Hello Mike,
If this is the same incident I don't think the Pmags actually both
failed, although the effect was similar. What I think probably happened
was the timing on one of the P mags went way advanced. In this scenario
the second Pmag is just along for the ride, i.e it sparks but the charge
has already been lit at that point and hence doesn't do anything.
This is still the subject of investigation as we speak...I certainly
hope they find it 'cus I run Pmags myself.
I think kelly's point was that the traditional magnetoes are more
reliable than Pmags.
Frank
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
Kelly,
If you use have a dual electrical system it requires two alternators
yes. A small 20 amp B&C alternator is very close to the weight of a
vacuum pump, drive, regulator, and required plumbing. And the B&C
alternator in my very small 13,000+ hours of flying and my 30 year of
aircraft maintenance shows the it should be much more reliable. If you
need a 30 amp hour or more battery like a G-35 for starting then two
smaller Odyssey batteries will give you the same start power for less
weight. And if you are as paranoid as you sound then an old fashion
gang switch for the system inter connect with a safety strap for you
will keep the system disconnected in flight. As for your following
statements about reliability, almost everything works without failure if
properly maintained. The electrical system is in my experience the most
under maintained system in an airplane. How many Cessna's have you
looked at where ALL of the switches are 30 plus years old. The simple
fact is that most people don't do anything to an electrical system until
something fails. As far as fail proof, I fly airplanes of all types;
little, middle, and big over 800 hours a year and so far I have not
experienced a total electrical failure to a dark plane. As for the
P-mag, I recovered an RV-7 from a highway two weekends ago when Both
P-mags failed. Guess what, the electrical system worked perfectly......
Mike Larkin
ATP MEL, Com SEL, Many Types Rat., A&P, & IE
Lancair Legacy Build and Flown by Me
TS-11 Iskra Restored and Flown by Me
Kitfox IV re-engined and Flown by Me
A320/319 Flown by Me....
Ps- I only get this way with very very closed minded people.....
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
An interesting opinion, not based in fact. A dual electrical system
requires two alternators(heavier than a vacuum pump and one alternator),
two batteries(Significant extra wt), two totally separate buses. If you
interconnect them, you leave the possibility of one failure taking out
both systems. If you don't interconnect you have to be able to live with
what is on either bus by itself, which means you will need some
additional duplication. That is not simpler, nor less complex. I have
yet to see a failure-proof electrical system. Better to have enough to
keep flying when(not if) the electrics fail.
I have yet to see a CDI system that is more reliable than properly
maintained magnetos, in 35 years of flying and maintaining aircraft and
autos. The P-Mag/Emag(and others) may change that, eventually.
They have been talking certification for several years. Prism from GAMI
holds a lot of promise when it gets certified.
The main mag failures you see are when folks try to skimp and run
magnetos 1000+ hours without service. They should be opened and
inspected every 500 hours. Sometimes folks have to relearn hard lessons
all over again. You are free to do that with experimental aircraft.
KM
A&P/IA
CP ASMEL-I
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My Light Speed system on my IO-550 uses auto plugs=85.. I change them
every 100 hours at $40 a set..
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel
Loveys
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 4:25 PM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Auto plugs
One of th4 things I've never tried to do is replace the plugs on a plane
with anything other than the same type of plugs that came off.
Generally we used to inspect and clean the plugs every 50 hr.
(commercial) and return them to service. At better than $50.00 a pop we
weren't too interested in swapping plugs at the drop of a hat. the one
rule we did use was if we dropped a plug, the never happened, the second
drop would be in the oval filing cabinet.
Good stuff but not why I'm replying... As I said I never replaced a plug
with anything but the same type. so I am wondering if the thread and
reach of an automotive plug will even fit into the hole??
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| Subject: | Engine Running Rough |
Frank.
The airplane engine didn't quit. The CHT's and EGT's went off the chart
and the engine couldn't make enough power to maintain altitude. At the
time the plane was in the high mountains in east AZ.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hinde,
Frank George (Corvallis)
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Engine Running Rough
<frank.hinde@hp.com>
They may not know for absolute sure but there is a failure mode they
found that allows the unit with certain software versions to lose its
timing. There is a sevice bulletin on the Emag website about it.
It certainly makes sense and fits the description of the issues on the
downed airplane. I also had the same issues but my engine did not
actually quit.
Frank
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2/8/2007
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| Subject: | Engine Running Rough |
Steve -
I must disagree. I called EMagAir last week to ask some unrelated questions
about the EMag and PMag that are hanging on my engine. After answering my
questions (harness related) and discussing the background, I asked Brad to
tell me what he knew about this incident. He explained that they had
examined and tested the suspect units and could not duplicate the failure on
the test stand. If I understood him correctly, rather than send the suspect
units back to the owner, he kept them for further testing and returned new
PMags.
I find that refreshing and distinctly responsible, rather than typical and
disturbing.
And I'm keeping my EMag/PMag setup (unless I find a wad of $20s in the
laundry that will allow me to upgrade to twin PMags).
Neal
RV-7 N8ZG
_still_ wiring
Neal E. George
2023 Everglades Drive
Navarre, FL 32566
Home - 850-515-0640
Cell - 850-218-4838
--> <s_korney@hotmail.com>
To the best of my knowledge you are correct. One of the P-mags came off
time for some unknown reason.....
That's not good to hear.....If they knew the reason, they could fix it....If
they don't know the reason .... Well, then what?
Best... Steve
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