---------------------------------------------------------- Engines-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/19/09: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:10 AM - Re: Re: Paul Lamar. !!! (Daniel Michaels) 2. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Paul Lamar. !!! (ogoodwin@comcast.net) 3. 04:55 PM - Re: Re: Paul Lamar. !!! (n801bh@netzero.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:18 AM PST US From: Daniel Michaels Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Paul Lamar. !!! I think what he is saying is why have such a big engine out front if you ar e only going to use what a little GEO engine will put out at half the weigh t. Not only are you carrying extra weight, but your fuel burn is more carry ing that weight. Just an observation. Dan --- On Fri, 9/18/09, n801bh@netzero.com wrote: From: n801bh@netzero.com Subject: Engines-List: Re: Paul Lamar. !!! This posting that was on the internet was forwarded to me by several friends.......=C2- What a piece of work he is=C2- ! =0A------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---=C2=AD--------------------------------------------------------------- =0AOn the "801" =0A=9CThis is an accident waiting to happen. The motor mount is incor rectly designed with un triangulated bays and bent tubes in tension and compression. The firewall forward weight is at least 450 pounds aluminum block or no aluminum block. No mention is made of beefing up the fuselage to take the vastly increased bending loads during landing and high G turns not to mention the increased bending loads on the wing spars. Zenairs are not over =C2-designed to begin with having very thin skins. =0A"The fuel burn is better then expected though and I am presently confirming the JPI 450 for accuracy. Cruise @ 11,000 msl is producing 5.9 0 -6.3 =C2-gallons an hour." =0AThe numbers quoted above shows a lack of understanding about engine engineering in general. The fuel burn quoted at 6 gallons an hour or 37 pounds an hour means the engine is only generating 83 HP giving it the benefit of a BSFC number of .45. In the unlikely event the BSFC is as low as .40 the HP then would be 93 HP at the absolute maximum. Now you have a 450 pound firewall forward weight putting out 93 HP at cruise. =0ASomething is seriously wrong. =0A=C2- "The numbers I am shooting for are one pound of engine weight for each horsepower and a small total engine profile that will fit in most airframes." =0AWhat he is saying here is he things he is going to get 350 to 400 HP with a 1.43:1 PSRU ratio. With a 2600 RPM prop that is 3700 engine RPM. No way is that going to happen. =0AThis person is totally clueless. =0AI am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time. =0APaul Lamar=9D =0A------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---=C2=AD---------------------------------------------------------------- =0AI don't know who this "person" is or what his qualifications are but.. =0AI am compelled to answer his hatchet job on every topic. =0AMy project is a one of a kind. I had no group, forum or any other source to go to during the design, and test flying of my experimental aircraft, so all the calculations, fabrications and installations are a one off and done to the best of my ability using past life experiences from fabricating stuff on race boats, cars and god only knows whatever I have modified in earlier years. =0AI built my plane, 3000 + hours of MY time. I didn't but a half built one, or a completed one to use a test bed for my powerplant. I have been flying for almost 30 years and owned several other planes. =0A=C2- =C2- My experimental plane has been flying for 5 years and 300 hours. Been flown in air from 97f =C2- to -37f. Has over 500 landing, been flown from JAC, 6430 msl to 18,000 feet, full throttle, !! over a couple of dozen times to test it for strength. Been flown in all other power settings to comfirm and quantify data. Tested to +3.5g's to - 2.5 g's. Flown to OSH and back... not trucked there as others seem to do to display their creations. =0AMy responses.. =0A1- When is this " accident" going to happen ?? =0A2- The mount is designed by me using triangulation, just go to my web site and look at the pics. =0A3- There are NO bent tubes in my mount. there are intersecting angles but that happens on ALL mounts. At those intersections the area is beefed up internally. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean crap. =0A4- I know EXACTLY what it weighs. I don't guess like he seems to. And it is less then his "estimation" =0A5- Of course I beefed up the airframe as I built it. Just because I didn't state that on my website should not give him a pass at a free shot. =0A6- Zenith Aircraft seem to be an "issue" to him. Mine =C2-has twice th e "suggested" HP and still has not broken in half. =0A7- The plane has so much power that at cruise I can throttle back to ALOT.. A 801 has alot of aerodynamic drag. I can run 90@ 6.4 GPH or 110@ 17 GPH. The plane hits a brick wall so why burn three times the fuel to go a little faster. If I wanted to go fast I would have built another type plane. You would think a guy like him could draw a simple conclusion. =0A8- I have probably built, raced and tested more engines hen he can dream about. =0A9- BSFC of .45 ??? =C2- Jeez. I would be embarrased to tune a motor th at rich. =0A10- Nothing is " seriously wrong"............. I am seriously throttled back. =0A11- The motor is capable of 600 + Hp in different trim. ie, different redrive ratio, different intake design, etc. The motor will not gain any more weight by changing componants, so 350-400 Hp is a no brainer.. On MY plane I purposely stayed with 1.43-1 because it for sure doen not need any more power. =0A12- Where did he get the 3700 RPM # =C2-from ? =C2-I turn the motor alot higher then that on take off. Yeah, the prop is kinda noisy but nothing worse then what noise a seaplane makes with a large diameter prop. =0A13- =C2-""" Totally Clueless""" =C2-Ya wanna bet.. =0AAnd in closing all I can add is " I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time. " =0A=C2-Geez... Where was he 5 years and 300 hours ago ??????. =0A=C2- Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com =0A=0A ____________________________________________________________=0A Digital Photography - Click Now. =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:15 AM PST US From: ogoodwin@comcast.net Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Paul Lamar. !!! Possibly the fact that he's operating from 6000msl (field elevation) up.=C2 - I don't think a Geo would work well crossing a 14000 ft mountain range. =C2- By flat rating (limiting the power used) he has the effect of a supe rcharged engine without the mechanical complexity.=C2- He's also using su ch a small amount of the engine's potential that it should pretty well last forever.=C2- Maybe giving up a little fuel is worth it to him.=C2- He can carry the power the Geo makes at sea level up into the oxygen bottle le vels. His numbers make sense if you factor in the way he's operating the engine. =C2- Many of us are used to pulling the max power the engine will put out for takeoff, then 75% for cruise, and so forth. Olen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Michaels" Sent: Saturday, September 19, 2009 9:00:45 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: =C2-Paul Lamar. !!! I think what he is saying is why have such a big engine out front if you ar e only going to use what a little GEO engine will put out at half the weigh t. Not only are you carrying extra weight, but your fuel burn is more carry ing that weight. Just an observation. Dan --- On Fri, 9/18/09, n801bh@netzero.com wrote: From: n801bh@netzero.com Subject: Engines-List: Re: Paul Lamar. !!! This posting that was on the internet was forwarded to me by several friends.......=C2- What a piece of work he is=C2- ! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- =C2=AD--------------------------------------------------------------- On the "801" =9CThis is an accident waiting to happen. The motor mount is incorrec tly designed with un triangulated bays and bent tubes in tension and compression. The firewall forward weight is at least 450 pounds aluminum block or no aluminum block. No mention is made of beefing up the fuselage to take the vastly increased bending loads during landing and high G turns not to mention the increased bending loads on the wing spars. Zenairs are not over =C2-designed to begin with having very thin skins. "The fuel burn is better then expected though and I am presently confirming the JPI 450 for accuracy. Cruise @ 11,000 msl is producing 5.9 0 -6.3 =C2-gallons an hour." The numbers quoted above shows a lack of understanding about engine engineering in general. The fuel burn quoted at 6 gallons an hour or 37 pounds an hour means the engine is only generating 83 HP giving it the benefit of a BSFC number of .45. In the unlikely event the BSFC is as low as .40 the HP then would be 93 HP at the absolute maximum. Now you have a 450 pound firewall forward weight putting out 93 HP at cruise. Something is seriously wrong. =C2- "The numbers I am shooting for are one pound of engine weight for each horsepower and a small total engine profile that will fit in most airframes." What he is saying here is he things he is going to get 350 to 400 HP with a 1.43:1 PSRU ratio. With a 2600 RPM prop that is 3700 engine RPM. No way is that going to happen. This person is totally clueless. I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time. Paul Lamar=9D --------------------------------------------------------------------------- =C2=AD---------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know who this "person" is or what his qualifications are but.. I am compelled to answer his hatchet job on every topic. My project is a one of a kind. I had no group, forum or any other source to go to during the design, and test flying of my experimental aircraft, so all the calculations, fabrications and installations are a one off and done to the best of my ability using past life experiences from fabricating stuff on race boats, cars and god only knows whatever I have modified in earlier years. I built my plane, 3000 + hours of MY time. I didn't but a half built one, or a completed one to use a test bed for my powerplant. I have been flying for almost 30 years and owned several other planes. =C2- =C2- My experimental plane has been flying for 5 years and 300 hou rs. Been flown in air from 97f =C2- to -37f. Has over 500 landing, been flown from JAC, 6430 msl to 18,000 feet, full throttle, !! over a couple of dozen times to test it for strength. Been flown in all other power settings to comfirm and quantify data. Tested to +3.5g's to - 2.5 g's. Flown to OSH and back... not trucked there as others seem to do to display their creations. My responses.. 1- When is this " accident" going to happen ?? 2- The mount is designed by me using triangulation, just go to my web site and look at the pics. 3- There are NO bent tubes in my mount. there are intersecting angles but that happens on ALL mounts. At those intersections the area is beefed up internally. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean crap. 4- I know EXACTLY what it weighs. I don't guess like he seems to. And it is less then his "estimation" 5- Of course I beefed up the airframe as I built it. Just because I didn't state that on my website should not give him a pass at a free shot. 6- Zenith Aircraft seem to be an "issue" to him. Mine =C2-has twice the "suggested" HP and still has not broken in half. 7- The plane has so much power that at cruise I can throttle back to ALOT.. A 801 has alot of aerodynamic drag. I can run 90@ 6.4 GPH or 110@ 17 GPH. The plane hits a brick wall so why burn three times the fuel to go a little faster. If I wanted to go fast I would have built another type plane. You would think a guy like him could draw a simple conclusion. 8- I have probably built, raced and tested more engines hen he can dream about. 9- BSFC of .45 ??? =C2- Jeez. I would be embarrased to tune a motor that rich. 10- Nothing is " seriously wrong"............. I am seriously throttled back. 11- The motor is capable of 600 + Hp in different trim. ie, different redrive ratio, different intake design, etc. The motor will not gain any more weight by changing componants, so 350-400 Hp is a no brainer.. On MY plane I purposely stayed with 1.43-1 because it for sure doen not need any more power. 12- Where did he get the 3700 RPM # =C2-from ? =C2-I turn the motor alo t higher then that on take off. Yeah, the prop is kinda noisy but nothing worse then what noise a seaplane makes with a large diameter prop. 13- =C2-""" Totally Clueless""" =C2-Ya wanna bet.. And in closing all I can add is " I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time. " =C2-Geez... Where was he 5 years and 300 hours ago ??????. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ____________________________________________________________ Digital Photography - Click Now. == ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:29 PM PST US From: "n801bh@netzero.com" Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Paul Lamar. !!! put in 4 full sized adults and 60+ gallons of fuel and the GEO engine " Might" be able to get it to taxi to the active runway... .... He can have his opinion,, BUT,,, calling me clueless is petty, naive and not a nything close to the truth... If he had actually built and flown an exp erimental plane, in my eyes that would go far in my respect for him. Key board pilots/engineers/ wanna bee's need to listen,,,, not proclaim exce llence... IMHO... Thanks for your feedback Danial. tailwinds. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Daniel Michaels Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Paul Lamar. !!! I think what he is saying is why have such a big engine out front if you are only going to use what a little GEO engine will put out at half the weight. Not only are you carrying extra weight, but your fuel burn is m ore carrying that weight. Just an observation. Dan --- On Fri, 9/18/09, n801bh@netzero.com wrote: From: n801bh@netzero.com Subject: Engines-List: Re: Paul Lamar. !!! This posting that was on the internet was forwarded to me by several friends....... What a piece of work he is ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---=C2­------------------------------------------------------------- -- On the "801" =9CThis is an accident waiting to happen. The motor mount is incor rectly designed with un triangulated bays and bent tubes in tension and compression. The firewall forward weight is at least 450 pounds aluminum block or no aluminum block. No mention is made of beefing up the fuselage to take the vastly increased bending loads during landing and high G turns not to mention the increased bending loads on the wing spars. Zenairs are not over designed to begin with having very thin skins. "The fuel burn is better then expected though and I am presently confirming the JPI 450 for accuracy. Cruise @ 11,000 msl is producing 5.9 0 -6.3 gallons an hour." The numbers quoted above shows a lack of understanding about engine engineering in general. The fuel burn quoted at 6 gallons an hour or 37 pounds an hour means the engine is only generating 83 HP giving it the benefit of a BSFC number of .45. In the unlikely event the BSFC is as low as .40 the HP then would be 93 HP at the absolute maximum. Now you have a 450 pound firewall forward weight putting out 93 HP at cruise. Something is seriously wrong. "The numbers I am shooting for are one pound of engine weight for each horsepower and a small total engine profile that will fit in most airframes." What he is saying here is he things he is going to get 350 to 400 HP with a 1.43:1 PSRU ratio. With a 2600 RPM prop that is 3700 engine RPM. No way is that going to happen. This person is totally clueless. I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time. Paul Lamar=9D ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---=C2­------------------------------------------------------------- --- I don't know who this "person" is or what his qualifications are but.. I am compelled to answer his hatchet job on every topic. My project is a one of a kind. I had no group, forum or any other source to go to during the design, and test flying of my experimental aircraft, so all the calculations, fabrications and installations are a one off and done to the best of my ability using past life experiences from fabricating stuff on race boats, cars and god only knows whatever I have modified in earlier years. I built my plane, 3000 + hours of MY time. I didn't but a half built one, or a completed one to use a test bed for my powerplant. I have been flying for almost 30 years and owned several other planes. My experimental plane has been flying for 5 years and 300 hours. Been flown in air from 97f to -37f. Has over 500 landing, been flown from JAC, 6430 msl to 18,000 feet, full throttle, !! over a couple of dozen times to test it for strength. Been flown in all other power settings to comfirm and quantify data. Tested to +3.5g's to - 2.5 g's. Flown to OSH and back... not trucked there as others seem to do to display their creations. My responses.. 1- When is this " accident" going to happen ?? 2- The mount is designed by me using triangulation, just go to my web site and look at the pics. 3- There are NO bent tubes in my mount. there are intersecting angles but that happens on ALL mounts. At those intersections the area is beefed up internally. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean crap. 4- I know EXACTLY what it weighs. I don't guess like he seems to. And it is less then his "estimation" 5- Of course I beefed up the airframe as I built it. Just because I didn't state that on my website should not give him a pass at a free shot. 6- Zenith Aircraft seem to be an "issue" to him. Mine has twice the "suggested" HP and still has not broken in half. 7- The plane has so much power that at cruise I can throttle back to ALOT.. A 801 has alot of aerodynamic drag. I can run 90@ 6.4 GPH or 110@ 17 GPH. The plane hits a brick wall so why burn three times the fuel to go a little faster. If I wanted to go fast I would have built another type plane. You would think a guy like him could draw a simple conclusion. 8- I have probably built, raced and tested more engines hen he can dream about. 9- BSFC of .45 ??? Jeez. I would be embarrased to tune a motor that rich. 10- Nothing is " seriously wrong"............. I am seriously throttled back. 11- The motor is capable of 600 + Hp in different trim. ie, different redrive ratio, different intake design, etc. The motor will not gain any more weight by changing componants, so 350-400 Hp is a no brainer.. On MY plane I purposely stayed with 1.43-1 because it for sure doen not need any more power. 12- Where did he get the 3700 RPM # from ? I turn the motor alot higher then that on take off. Yeah, the prop is kinda noisy but nothing worse then what noise a seaplane makes with a large diameter prop. 13- """ Totally Clueless""" Ya wanna bet.. And in closing all I can add is " I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time. " Geez... Where was he 5 years and 300 hours ago ??????. Ben Haas N801BH www.haaspowerair.com ____________________________________________________________ Digital Photography - Click Now. ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ======================== ========= ____________________________________________________________ Click now for prescreened plumbing contractors. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/BLSrjpYePbjMAHwHCm7egwgff ZNQFLlKObyybAIkEWOFnmbZCkKIojcUUco/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message engines-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Engines-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/engines-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/engines-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.