Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:44 AM - Re: Float doesn't (teamgrumman@aol.com)
2. 03:17 PM - Re: Float doesn't (n801bh@netzero.com)
3. 04:03 PM - Re: Float doesn't (Monty Barrett Sr)
4. 05:33 PM - Re: Float doesn't (Tedd McHenry)
5. 09:28 PM - Re: Float doesn't (teamgrumman@aol.com)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Float doesn't |
And what would that prove? ?The carb was rebuilt using the then current specifications.
?
It's not surprising to me the float failed. ?It's not like floats in carbs haven't
been around for 100 years. ?It doesn't surprise to me that the floats used
in planes are inferior to those used in cars. ?
The hoops the FAA requires a manufacture to jump through completely eliminates
the possibility for improving a product. ?Some of the testing they require and
the standards that they work to are totally out-of-sink with reality. ?Companies
are so gun shy when it comes to making improvements because it's like saying,
"Hey, we knew the previous version sucked, now we're making a better one."
?An improvement means they are liable for all the junk they sold before. ?Airworthiness
Directive or not. ?
Putting it another way: ?The avionics, engines, materials, autopilots, practically
everything available to the experimental aircraft builder is the better than
that available to the certified aircraft owner. ?Even when the products are
exactly the same, those for the certified plane are 3 or 4 times the price. ?Not
because they are better; because of the ridiculous?FAA testing required on
a product on top of the testing done just to get the product to market. ?
What amazes me most is, the FAA has no liability for a product failure. ?None.
?It cost me 9 years and $150,000 to get a fiberglass cowling STCd as a replacement
for a metal cowling. ?Fiberglass is an insulator. ? I had to pay $5,000 for
a burn test (Plus $1,000 to make 4 test panels to spec) so they could be burned
and show they wouldn't disintegrate if there was an engine fire. ?I had to
redo all of the carb heat rise testing even though none of my changes involved
anything to do with carb heat. ?WHY? ?Because I "MIGHT" have changed the amount
of pressure in the cowling enough to affect the carb heat rise. ?And, I couldn't
say the cowling reduced drag or made the plane more efficient because
then I'd have to include a completely new set of?performance?testing for changes
to the POH.
Now that the STC is signed off I can say, the cowling adds about 6 to 10 knots.
?But, don't tell the FAA. ?[smile]
-----Original Message-----
From: n801bh@netzero.com <n801bh@netzero.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 20, 2009 12:44 pm
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Float doesn't
Easy... Find the yellow tag that was sent with the rebult carb/engine and take
a pic of the floats. send it in to the local FSDO/FSFO etc... If they are going
to charge a?premium price for aircraft quality work then by gosh they need to
deliver.. MHO.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Subject: Engines-List: Float doesn't
I had a customer call several weeks ago saying his engine felt 'weird' on a landing,
kind of like it wanted to stall. ?As he rolled out onto the taxiway, the
engine felt normal. ?We made an appointment to check it out, and left it at that.
?The next few flights were about the same. ?He didn't worry much about the
engine. ?
A couple of weeks ago (oh, he never did come down to have it checked out) he called
saying it was worse. ?
Note: ?He has a Cheetah, O320-E2G. ?Several years ago I had a customer with the
same symptoms with his Cheetah and it was the mixture needle working it's way
out. ?
I had him check the mixture screw and turn it in a 1/4 turn and said to bring it
in. ?He planned to bring it in but never did. ?The engine 'felt' better. ?
Last week, he called saying it was getting a lot worse. ?He said it barely ran
at idle. ?He finally brought it in last Friday. ?
I looked for all of the basic stuff, leaks at the intake tubes, mixture screw,
looked for leaks on the carb . . . . nothing. ?We removed the cowling and airbox.
?Several years ago, the accelerator nozzle in the carb on my Cheetah had fallen
out and was lying in the bottom of the airbox. ?I expected to find something
like that. ?Nothing. ?Venturi was tight,?accelerator nozzle was tight . .
. ?nothing. ?I removed the carb.
I expected to find debris in the bottom of the carb. ?Nothing. ?Then I noticed
one of the semi-transparent floats was full, I mean full, of fuel. ?These are
the white floats. ?They should have been changed. ?Except that, the carb had been
overhauled in 2005. ?All new parts. ?
Carb goes to Ken, at Lycon, in the morning.
===================================
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===================================
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Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Float doesn't |
My mistake. I thought the Semi- transparent floats were not legal to us
e back in 2005
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I expected to find debris in the bottom of the carb. Nothing. Then I n
oticed one of the semi-transparent floats was full, I mean full, of fuel
. These are the white floats. They should have been changed. Except t
hat, the carb had been overhauled in 2005. All new parts.
Carb goes to Ken, at Lycon, in the morning."""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
""""""""""""
"""""""""""""""
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Float doesn't
And what would that prove? The carb was rebuilt using the then current
specifications.
It's not surprising to me the float failed. It's not like floats in car
bs haven't been around for 100 years. It doesn't surprise to me that th
e floats used in planes are inferior to those used in cars.
The hoops the FAA requires a manufacture to jump through completely elim
inates the possibility for improving a product. Some of the testing the
y require and the standards that they work to are totally out-of-sink wi
th reality. Companies are so gun shy when it comes to making improvemen
ts because it's like saying, "Hey, we knew the previous version sucked,
now we're making a better one." An improvement means they are liable fo
r all the junk they sold before. Airworthiness Directive or not.
Putting it another way: The avionics, engines, materials, autopilots, p
ractically everything available to the experimental aircraft builder is
the better than that available to the certified aircraft owner. Even wh
en the products are exactly the same, those for the certified plane are
3 or 4 times the price. Not because they are better; because of the rid
iculous FAA testing required on a product on top of the testing done jus
t to get the product to market.
What amazes me most is, the FAA has no liability for a product failure.
None. It cost me 9 years and $150,000 to get a fiberglass cowling STCd
as a replacement for a metal cowling. Fiberglass is an insulator. I
had to pay $5,000 for a burn test (Plus $1,000 to make 4 test panels to
spec) so they could be burned and show they wouldn't disintegrate if the
re was an engine fire. I had to redo all of the carb heat rise testing
even though none of my changes involved anything to do with carb heat.
WHY? Because I "MIGHT" have changed the amount of pressure in the cowli
ng enough to affect the carb heat rise. And, I couldn't say the cowling
reduced drag or made the plane more efficient because then I'd have to
include a completely new set of performance testing for changes to the P
OH.
Now that the STC is signed off I can say, the cowling adds about 6 to 10
knots. But, don't tell the FAA. [smile]
-----Original Message-----
From: n801bh@netzero.com <n801bh@netzero.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 20, 2009 12:44 pm
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Float doesn't
Easy... Find the yellow tag that was sent with the rebult carb/engine an
d take a pic of the floats. send it in to the local FSDO/FSFO etc... If
they are going to charge a premium price for aircraft quality work then
by gosh they need to deliver.. MHO.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Subject: Engines-List: Float doesn't
I had a customer call several weeks ago saying his engine felt 'weird' o
n a landing, kind of like it wanted to stall. As he rolled out onto the
taxiway, the engine felt normal. We made an appointment to check it ou
t, and left it at that. The next few flights were about the same. He d
idn't worry much about the engine.
A couple of weeks ago (oh, he never did come down to have it checked out
) he called saying it was worse.
Note: He has a Cheetah, O320-E2G. Several years ago I had a customer w
ith the same symptoms with his Cheetah and it was the mixture needle wor
king it's way out.
I had him check the mixture screw and turn it in a 1/4 turn and said to
bring it in. He planned to bring it in but never did. The engine 'felt
' better.
Last week, he called saying it was getting a lot worse. He said it bare
ly ran at idle. He finally brought it in last Friday.
I looked for all of the basic stuff, leaks at the intake tubes, mixture
screw, looked for leaks on the carb . . . . nothing. We removed the cow
ling and airbox. Several years ago, the accelerator nozzle in the carb
on my Cheetah had fallen out and was lying in the bottom of the airbox.
I expected to find something like that. Nothing. Venturi was tight, a
ccelerator nozzle was tight . . . nothing. I removed the carb.
I expected to find debris in the bottom of the carb. Nothing. Then I n
oticed one of the semi-transparent floats was full, I mean full, of fuel
. These are the white floats. They should have been changed. Except t
hat, the carb had been overhauled in 2005. All new parts.
Carb goes to Ken, at Lycon, in the morning.
========================
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r?Engines-List====================
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=======www.matronics.com/contribution=======
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Message 3
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Having run some engines and engine parts thru the FAA certification
process I can wholeheartedly agree with whomever teamgrumman is. FAR 33
covers the certification steps necessary to get an engine and / or
engine parts thru the test portion of cert. PLUS, the FAA Engineer can
specify additional requirements if he so chooses and can make a valid
case for doing so. Valid, in this case, means " to the administrator ",
not the applicant. Furthermore a 300 hour minimum test on an engine
running at max power most of the time and with the CHT and Oil Temp at
redline minimum, it becomess very grueling for the operator AND the
engine with just a little bit of danger thrown in for good measure. Has
anybody ever seen a cylinder come off an engine while the engine is
making maximum power ? How about a connecting rod or a counterweight
which has ventilated a crankcase ?
Monty Barrett
BPE, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
teamgrumman@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:34 PM
To: engines-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Float doesn't
And what would that prove? The carb was rebuilt using the then
current specifications.
It's not surprising to me the float failed. It's not like
floats in carbs haven't been around for 100 years. It doesn't surprise
to me that the floats used in planes are inferior to those used in cars.
The hoops the FAA requires a manufacture to jump through
completely eliminates the possibility for improving a product. Some of
the testing they require and the standards that they work to are totally
out-of-sink with reality. Companies are so gun shy when it comes to
making improvements because it's like saying, "Hey, we knew the previous
version sucked, now we're making a better one." An improvement means
they are liable for all the junk they sold before. Airworthiness
Directive or not.
Putting it another way: The avionics, engines, materials,
autopilots, practically everything available to the experimental
aircraft builder is the better than that available to the certified
aircraft owner. Even when the products are exactly the same, those for
the certified plane are 3 or 4 times the price. Not because they are
better; because of the ridiculous FAA testing required on a product on
top of the testing done just to get the product to market.
What amazes me most is, the FAA has no liability for a product
failure. None. It cost me 9 years and $150,000 to get a fiberglass
cowling STCd as a replacement for a metal cowling. Fiberglass is an
insulator. I had to pay $5,000 for a burn test (Plus $1,000 to make 4
test panels to spec) so they could be burned and show they wouldn't
disintegrate if there was an engine fire. I had to redo all of the carb
heat rise testing even though none of my changes involved anything to do
with carb heat. WHY? Because I "MIGHT" have changed the amount of
pressure in the cowling enough to affect the carb heat rise. And, I
couldn't say the cowling reduced drag or made the plane more efficient
because then I'd have to include a completely new set of performance
testing for changes to the POH.
Now that the STC is signed off I can say, the cowling adds about
6 to 10 knots. But, don't tell the FAA. [smile]
-----Original Message-----
From: n801bh@netzero.com <n801bh@netzero.com>
To: engines-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sun, Sep 20, 2009 12:44 pm
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Float doesn't
Easy... Find the yellow tag that was sent with the rebult
carb/engine and take a pic of the floats. send it in to the local
FSDO/FSFO etc... If they are going to charge a premium price for
aircraft quality work then by gosh they need to deliver.. MHO.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
To: engines-list@matronics.com
Subject: Engines-List: Float doesn't
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:01:59 -0400
I had a customer call several weeks ago saying his engine felt
'weird' on a landing, kind of like it wanted to stall. As he rolled out
onto the taxiway, the engine felt normal. We made an appointment to
check it out, and left it at that. The next few flights were about the
same. He didn't worry much about the engine.
A couple of weeks ago (oh, he never did come down to have it
checked out) he called saying it was worse.
Note: He has a Cheetah, O320-E2G. Several years ago I had a
customer with the same symptoms with his Cheetah and it was the mixture
needle working it's way out.
I had him check the mixture screw and turn it in a 1/4 turn and
said to bring it in. He planned to bring it in but never did. The
engine 'felt' better.
Last week, he called saying it was getting a lot worse. He said
it barely ran at idle. He finally brought it in last Friday.
I looked for all of the basic stuff, leaks at the intake tubes,
mixture screw, looked for leaks on the carb . . . . nothing. We removed
the cowling and airbox. Several years ago, the accelerator nozzle in
the carb on my Cheetah had fallen out and was lying in the bottom of the
airbox. I expected to find something like that. Nothing. Venturi was
tight, accelerator nozzle was tight . . . nothing. I removed the carb.
I expected to find debris in the bottom of the carb. Nothing.
Then I noticed one of the semi-transparent floats was full, I mean full,
of fuel. These are the white floats. They should have been changed.
Except that, the carb had been overhauled in 2005. All new parts.
Carb goes to Ken, at Lycon, in the morning.
t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
tronics.com
www.matronics.com/contribution
____________________________________________________________
Let everyone in on the conversation with a new conference phone.
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Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Float doesn't |
> Has anybody ever seen a cylinder come off an engine while the engine
> is making maximum power ?
Not seen it, but felt it from the pilot's seat. And I concur that
it's exciting. It sounded like a sling-load of steel pipe hitting the
deck of a ship -- or, at least, what I imagine that would sound like.
Tedd
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Float doesn't |
The carb was overhauled in March 2005. ?I thought the SB came out after that.
-----Original Message-----
From: n801bh@netzero.com <n801bh@netzero.com>
Sent: Thu, Sep 24, 2009 3:16 pm
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Float doesn't
My mistake.?I thought the??Semi- transparent floats were not legal to use back
in 2005
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
I expected to find debris in the bottom of the carb. ?Nothing. ?Then I noticed
one of the semi-transparent floats was full, I mean full, of fuel. ?These are
the white floats. ?They should have been changed. ?Except that, the carb had been
overhauled in 2005. ?All new parts. ?
Carb goes to Ken, at Lycon, in the morning.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
?
"""""""""""""""
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Float doesn't
And what would that prove? ?The carb was rebuilt using the then current specifications.
?
It's not surprising to me the float failed. ?It's not like floats in carbs haven't
been around for 100 years. ?It doesn't surprise to me that the floats used
in planes are inferior to those used in cars. ?
The hoops the FAA requires a manufacture to jump through completely eliminates
the possibility for improving a product. ?Some of the testing they require and
the standards that they work to are totally out-of-sink with reality. ?Companies
are so gun shy when it comes to making improvements because it's like saying,
"Hey, we knew the previous version sucked, now we're making a better one."
?An improvement means they are liable for all the junk they sold before. ?Airworthiness
Directive or not. ?
Putting it another way: ?The avionics, engines, materials, autopilots, practically
everything available to the experimental aircraft builder is the better than
that available to the certified aircraft owner. ?Even when the products are
exactly the same, those for the certified plane are 3 or 4 times the price. ?Not
because they are better; because of the ridiculous?FAA testing required on
a product on top of the testing done just to get the product to market. ?
What amazes me most is, the FAA has no liability for a product failure. ?None.
?It cost me 9 years and $150,000 to get a fiberglass cowling STCd as a replacement
for a metal cowling. ?Fiberglass is an insulator. ? I had to pay $5,000 for
a burn test (Plus $1,000 to make 4 test panels to spec) so they could be burned
and show they wouldn't disintegrate if there was an engine fire. ?I had to
redo all of the carb heat rise testing even though none of my changes involved
anything to do with carb heat. ?WHY? ?Because I "MIGHT" have changed the amount
of pressure in the cowling enough to affect the carb heat rise. ?And, I couldn't
say the cowling reduced drag or made the plane more efficient because
then I'd have to include a completely new set of?performance?testing for changes
to the POH.
Now that the STC is signed off I can say, the cowling adds about 6 to 10 knots.
?But, don't tell the FAA. ?[smile]
-----Original Message-----
From: n801bh@netzero.com <n801bh@netzero.com>
Sent: Sun, Sep 20, 2009 12:44 pm
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Float doesn't
Easy... Find the yellow tag that was sent with the rebult carb/engine and take
a pic of the floats. send it in to the local FSDO/FSFO etc... If they are going
to charge a?premium price for aircraft quality work then by gosh they need to
deliver.. MHO.
Ben Haas
N801BH
www.haaspowerair.com
---------- Original Message ----------
From: teamgrumman@aol.com
Subject: Engines-List: Float doesn't
I had a customer call several weeks ago saying his engine felt 'weird' on a landing,
kind of like it wanted to stall. ?As he rolled out onto the taxiway, the
engine felt normal. ?We made an appointment to check it out, and left it at that.
?The next few flights were about the same. ?He didn't worry much about the
engine. ?
A couple of weeks ago (oh, he never did come down to have it checked out) he called
saying it was worse. ?
Note: ?He has a Cheetah, O320-E2G. ?Several years ago I had a customer with the
same symptoms with his Cheetah and it was the mixture needle working it's way
out. ?
I had him check the mixture screw and turn it in a 1/4 turn and said to bring it
in. ?He planned to bring it in but never did. ?The engine 'felt' better. ?
Last week, he called saying it was getting a lot worse. ?He said it barely ran
at idle. ?He finally brought it in last Friday. ?
I looked for all of the basic stuff, leaks at the intake tubes, mixture screw,
looked for leaks on the carb . . . . nothing. ?We removed the cowling and airbox.
?Several years ago, the accelerator nozzle in the carb on my Cheetah had fallen
out and was lying in the bottom of the airbox. ?I expected to find something
like that. ?Nothing. ?Venturi was tight,?accelerator nozzle was tight . .
. ?nothing. ?I removed the carb.
I expected to find debris in the bottom of the carb. ?Nothing. ?Then I noticed
one of the semi-transparent floats was full, I mean full, of fuel. ?These are
the white floats. ?They should have been changed. ?Except that, the carb had been
overhauled in 2005. ?All new parts. ?
Carb goes to Ken, at Lycon, in the morning.
===================================
t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
===================================
tronics.com
===================================
www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
____________________________________________________________
Let everyone in on the conversation with a new conference phone. Click now!
===================================
t">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List
===================================
tronics.com
===================================
www.matronics.com/contribution
===================================
____________________________________________________________
Best Weight Loss Program - Click Here!
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