Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:46 AM - O-235 Plug Fouling? (Dwight Frye)
2. 08:39 AM - Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? (scott bilinski)
3. 12:12 PM - Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? (Noel Loveys)
4. 01:24 PM - Re: Engines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/20/10 (Speedy11@aol.com)
5. 02:29 PM - Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? (Dwight Frye)
6. 02:32 PM - Re: Re: Engines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/20/10 (scott bilinski)
7. 02:46 PM - Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? (William Archer)
8. 03:24 PM - Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? (FLYaDIVE)
9. 04:18 PM - Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? (Dwight Frye)
10. 04:41 PM - Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? (jerb)
11. 04:51 PM - Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? (jerb)
12. 05:37 PM - Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? (Kelly McMullen)
13. 05:37 PM - Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? (Ken)
14. 07:13 PM - Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? (Todd Archer)
Message 1
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| Subject: | O-235 Plug Fouling? |
I need some advice. This is an O-235 in an 1967 Citabria 7ECA, and
we (my partners and I) have owned for about three years. Since we
have an oil screen, and not a filter, we do an oil change every
25 hours. At that time we also clean the plugs, and do a bunch of
other random maintainence (check the battery, air in the tires,
etc.).
In the first few years of ownership we would find lead in the plugs
and would clean it out at every oil change. But we never had it so
bad that a plug fouled out _completely_. They were just "dirty". In
the last year we have had a continually growing problem with the
plugs not just getting dirty, but fouling out to the point of not
firing. The last time this happened three of the four bottom plugs
were _packed_ with lead deposits. It was bad enough that I thought
I might have simply lost a mag, but it was (in the end) just the
nasty state of the plugs.
One other piece of information is the age of our mags. We have Slick
mags, and they are getting close to the 800 hour mark. This is where
our A&P recommends they be replaced. Given that the mags are aging
I have _wondered_ if it is possible that they are gradually going
downhill and might be contributing to our fouling problem. Is that
possible? If not ..... does anyone have any insights as to why we
are having so much trouble?
At this point we can't make it 25 hours without plugs fouling OUT on
us. We do lean agressively when we taxi, and (of course) lean in
flight. For taxi I lean to the ragged edge where if I were to apply
full power the engine would sag badly, so I know it is pretty darn
lean for ground ops.
As a note, the plane goes in for annual in a month, and we are already
intending to replace mags/harness/plugs as a matter of course. But I
hate to keep battling continually fouling plugs for even another month
if I can avoid it. Opinions? Suggestions? Insights?
-- Dwight
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? |
Here you go.......=0Ahttp://www.decalinchemicals.com/fueladditive.html=0A
-=0AScott =0ARV-8a=0A-=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0AFrom: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>=0ATo: engines-list@matronics.co
m=0ASent: Wed, April 21, 2010 7:23:53 AM=0ASubject: Engines-List: O-235 Plu
nweave.org>=0A=0AI need some advice. This is an O-235 in an 1967 Citabria 7
ECA, and=0Awe (my partners and I) have owned for about three years. Since w
e =0Ahave an oil screen, and not a filter, we do an oil change every=0A25 h
ours. At that time we also clean the plugs, and do a bunch of=0Aother rando
m maintainence (check the battery, air in the tires,=0Aetc.).=0A=0AIn the f
irst few years of ownership we would find lead in the plugs=0Aand would cle
an it out at every oil change. But we never had it so=0Abad that a plug fou
led out _completely_. They were just "dirty". In=0Athe last year we have ha
d a continually growing problem with the=0Aplugs not just getting dirty, bu
t fouling out to the point of not=0Afiring. The last time this happened thr
ee of the four bottom plugs=0Awere _packed_ with lead deposits. It was bad
enough that I thought=0AI might have simply lost a mag, but it was (in the
end) just the=0Anasty state of the plugs.=0A=0AOne other piece of informati
on is the age of our mags. We have Slick=0Amags, and they are getting close
to the 800 hour mark. This is where=0Aour A&P recommends they be replaced.
Given that the mags are aging=0AI have _wondered_ if it is possible that t
hey are gradually going=0Adownhill and might be contributing to our fouling
problem. Is that=0Apossible? If not ..... does anyone have any insights as
to why we=0Aare having so much trouble?=0A=0AAt this point we can't make i
t 25 hours without plugs fouling OUT on=0Aus. We do lean agressively when w
e taxi, and (of course) lean in=0Aflight. For taxi I lean to the ragged edg
e where if I were to apply=0Afull power the engine would sag badly, so I kn
ow it is pretty darn=0Alean for ground ops.=0A=0AAs a note, the plane goes
in for annual in a month, and we are already=0Aintending to replace mags/ha
rness/plugs as a matter of course. But I=0Ahate to keep battling continuall
y fouling plugs for even another month=0Aif I can avoid it. Opinions? Sugge
====0A=0A=0A
Message 3
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| Subject: | O-235 Plug Fouling? |
My best guess is you are right in the mags getting a bit on the weak side.
I think this may be a place for a lead scavenger (Decathelon?). But I'd
start off with 1/10th the normal dosage and gradually increase it until the
lead fouling is reduced enough to give you the 25 hr between oil changes.
You also may consider installing an oil filter.
One other idea that was mentioned to me at one time was to add a detergent
to the oil about 1 hr before an oil change and be sure to drain the oil hot.
That will get out all the old sludge which may be part of your problem.
One other thing I just thought of is the primer sometimes doesn't lock down
properly and causes the engine to run way too rich. Check the primer to
make sure it doesn't leak when locked down.
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dwight Frye
Sent: April 21, 2010 11:54 AM
Subject: Engines-List: O-235 Plug Fouling?
I need some advice. This is an O-235 in an 1967 Citabria 7ECA, and
we (my partners and I) have owned for about three years. Since we
have an oil screen, and not a filter, we do an oil change every
25 hours. At that time we also clean the plugs, and do a bunch of
other random maintainence (check the battery, air in the tires,
etc.).
In the first few years of ownership we would find lead in the plugs
and would clean it out at every oil change. But we never had it so
bad that a plug fouled out _completely_. They were just "dirty". In
the last year we have had a continually growing problem with the
plugs not just getting dirty, but fouling out to the point of not
firing. The last time this happened three of the four bottom plugs
were _packed_ with lead deposits. It was bad enough that I thought
I might have simply lost a mag, but it was (in the end) just the
nasty state of the plugs.
One other piece of information is the age of our mags. We have Slick
mags, and they are getting close to the 800 hour mark. This is where
our A&P recommends they be replaced. Given that the mags are aging
I have _wondered_ if it is possible that they are gradually going
downhill and might be contributing to our fouling problem. Is that
possible? If not ..... does anyone have any insights as to why we
are having so much trouble?
At this point we can't make it 25 hours without plugs fouling OUT on
us. We do lean agressively when we taxi, and (of course) lean in
flight. For taxi I lean to the ragged edge where if I were to apply
full power the engine would sag badly, so I know it is pretty darn
lean for ground ops.
As a note, the plane goes in for annual in a month, and we are already
intending to replace mags/harness/plugs as a matter of course. But I
hate to keep battling continually fouling plugs for even another month
if I can avoid it. Opinions? Suggestions? Insights?
-- Dwight
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Engines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/20/10 |
Monty,
Thanks for your response and your explanation - that was exactly the info I
needed.
I was referring to the plenum, but another guy had called it the sump, so I
called it that thinking my terminology was wrong.
The engine is running great - only a few minor hiccups. I have some
surging during taxi. I'm not sure what is causing it, but I probably need to
adjust the idle. And I have a minor, but aggravating, oil leak that we're
tracing. Local A&P is going to wash the engine and I'll do multiple engine
runs to try and local the leak.
I'll add the sniffle valve you mentioned.
Thanks,
Stan Sutterfield
It is common for some oil to be in the plenum. The sump itself is full
of oil so I suspect you are referring to the plenum, which is part of
the induction system and is below the sump.
The reason that there is some oil in there is because when the engine is
operated at slow speed, such as taxi speed, the rocker boxes get
overfilled with oil, more so on a fresh engine where the ball sockets of
the pushrods have not bedded themselves to each corresponding rocker.
Then when the engine shuts down the oil in the rocker box will run thru
the intake guide, down the inlet pipe to the plenum, assisted by some
fuel which, when shutdown, will " dribble " out of the fuel nozzle,
diluting the oil and lowering is viscosity. Then the fuel evaporates
leaving the oil residue.
There are 1/8 NPTF holes in the lower edge of the plenum in which a "
sniffle valve " should be installed. Put a sniffle valve in the lower
port when the aircraft is sitting on the ground. This valve is used to
drain off residual fuel and oil. It's primary purpose is to minimize an
induction fire during a balked start. Use the one made by Airflow
Performance which has 1/8 NPTM thread on one end and -4 flare on the
other. Run a line overboard from underneath the cowling.
Monty Barrett
Barrett Precision Engines, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Speedy11@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 4:09 PM
Subject: Engines-List: Oil in sump
Engine Experts,
I have a Barrett IO-390.
When I removed one of the intake pipes from the sump to the
cylinder the other day, the sump had oil in it.
Should the sump where the intake pipes insert have oil in it??
If so, how much is permissible?
Stan Sutterfield
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? |
Noel (and Scott in another reply),
Thanks for the input. The Decalin RunUp product looks interesting, but
unfortunately they say right from the start :
Decalin RunUp is not approved for use in the engines of
certified aircraft ...
So no good for the Citabria. That is a pity, because it sure seems to
make sense. I'd love to install an oil filter, but honestly I'll not
be a partner in this plane much longer because I'm getting fairly close
to completing an RV-7. Also, my partners have not been all that excited
when I brought up the idea of adding an aftermarket oil filter in the
past. I'm glad to hear you think the mags might be a contributor to the
problem, because that is something we already HAVE to change. :)
Checking the primer is a good idea. I'll add that to the list of things
to do. In some other google-driven research I've seen the following
suggestions :
* Idle at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) for better
scavenging of the cylinder
* Do a plug-clean style runup (2000RPM, and lean very
agressively for a few moments) at the start and end
of every flight.
* Lean almost to the point of roughness for taxi (which
we already do)
* Shut down at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) than the
usual 1000RPM to help avoid lead condensing out
during the shutdown operation
Tomorrow night I'm headed out to do a plug cleaning and confirm
whether the latest rough running was lead or not. Given what we have
experienced lately I'm sure it will prove to be the culprit.
-- Dwight
On Wed Apr 21 15:10:40 2010, Noel Loveys wrote :
>
>
>My best guess is you are right in the mags getting a bit on the weak side.
>I think this may be a place for a lead scavenger (Decathelon?). But I'd
>start off with 1/10th the normal dosage and gradually increase it until the
>lead fouling is reduced enough to give you the 25 hr between oil changes.
>
>You also may consider installing an oil filter.
>
>One other idea that was mentioned to me at one time was to add a detergent
>to the oil about 1 hr before an oil change and be sure to drain the oil hot.
>That will get out all the old sludge which may be part of your problem.
>
>One other thing I just thought of is the primer sometimes doesn't lock down
>properly and causes the engine to run way too rich. Check the primer to
>make sure it doesn't leak when locked down.
>
>Noel
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dwight Frye
>Sent: April 21, 2010 11:54 AM
>To: engines-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Engines-List: O-235 Plug Fouling?
>
>
>I need some advice. This is an O-235 in an 1967 Citabria 7ECA, and
>we (my partners and I) have owned for about three years. Since we
>have an oil screen, and not a filter, we do an oil change every
>25 hours. At that time we also clean the plugs, and do a bunch of
>other random maintainence (check the battery, air in the tires,
>etc.).
>
>In the first few years of ownership we would find lead in the plugs
>and would clean it out at every oil change. But we never had it so
>bad that a plug fouled out _completely_. They were just "dirty". In
>the last year we have had a continually growing problem with the
>plugs not just getting dirty, but fouling out to the point of not
>firing. The last time this happened three of the four bottom plugs
>were _packed_ with lead deposits. It was bad enough that I thought
>I might have simply lost a mag, but it was (in the end) just the
>nasty state of the plugs.
>
>One other piece of information is the age of our mags. We have Slick
>mags, and they are getting close to the 800 hour mark. This is where
>our A&P recommends they be replaced. Given that the mags are aging
>I have _wondered_ if it is possible that they are gradually going
>downhill and might be contributing to our fouling problem. Is that
>possible? If not ..... does anyone have any insights as to why we
>are having so much trouble?
>
>At this point we can't make it 25 hours without plugs fouling OUT on
>us. We do lean agressively when we taxi, and (of course) lean in
>flight. For taxi I lean to the ragged edge where if I were to apply
>full power the engine would sag badly, so I know it is pretty darn
>lean for ground ops.
>
>As a note, the plane goes in for annual in a month, and we are already
>intending to replace mags/harness/plugs as a matter of course. But I
>hate to keep battling continually fouling plugs for even another month
>if I can avoid it. Opinions? Suggestions? Insights?
>
> -- Dwight
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Engines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/20/10 |
Surging at idle when hot is boiling of the fuel in the injector lines......
at least for me. Very annoying in the summer time!=0A-Scott=0ARV-8a=0A=0A
=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: "Speedy11@aol.com" <Sp
eedy11@aol.com>=0ATo: engines-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wed, April 21, 201
0 1:23:53 PM=0ASubject: Engines-List: Re: Engines-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 04/
20/10=0A=0AMonty,=0AThanks for your response and your explanation - that wa
s exactly the info I needed.=0AI was referring to the plenum, but another g
uy had called it the sump, so I called it that thinking my terminology was
wrong.=0AThe engine is running great - only a few minor hiccups.- I have
some surging during taxi.- I'm not sure what is causing it, but I probabl
y need to adjust the idle.- And I have a minor, but aggravating, oil leak
that we're tracing.- Local A&P is going to wash the engine and I'll do m
ultiple engine runs to try and local the leak.=0AI'll add the sniffle valve
you mentioned.=0AThanks,=0AStan Sutterfield=0AIt is common for some oil to
be in the plenum.- The sump itself is full=0A>of- oil so I suspect you
are referring to the plenum, which is part of=0A>the induction system and
is below the sump.=0A>=0A>The reason that there is some oil in there is bec
ause when the engine is=0A>operated at slow speed, such as taxi speed, the
rocker boxes get=0A>overfilled with oil, more so on a fresh engine where th
e ball sockets of=0A>the pushrods have not bedded themselves to each corres
ponding rocker.=0A>Then when the engine shuts down the oil in the rocker bo
x will- run thru=0A>the intake guide, down the inlet pipe to the plenum,
assisted by some=0A>fuel which, when shutdown, will- " dribble " out of t
he fuel nozzle,=0A>diluting the oil and lowering is viscosity.- Then the
fuel evaporates=0A>leaving the oil residue.=0A>=0A>There are 1/8 NPTF holes
in the lower edge of the plenum in which a "=0A>sniffle valve " should be
installed.- Put a sniffle valve in the lower=0A>port when the aircraft is
sitting on the ground.- This valve is used to=0A>drain off residual fuel
and oil.- It's primary purpose is to minimize an=0A>induction fire durin
g a balked start.- Use the one made by Airflow=0A>Performance which has 1
/8 NPTM thread on one end and -4 flare on the=0A>other.- Run a line overb
oard from underneath the cowling.=0A>=0A>Monty Barrett=0A>Barrett Precision
Engines, Inc.=0A>=0A>- - -----Original Message-----=0A>- - From: o
wner-engines-list-server@matronics.com=0A>[mailto:owner-engines-list-server
@matronics.com] On Behalf Of=0A>Speedy11@aol.com=0A>- - Sent: Monday, A
pril 19, 2010 4:09 PM=0A>- - To: engines-list@matronics.com=0A>- -
Subject: Engines-List: Oil in sump=0A>=0A>=0A>- - Engine Experts,=0A>
- - I have a Barrett IO-390.=0A>- - When I removed one of the intak
e pipes from the sump to the=0A>cylinder the other day, the sump had oil in
it.=0A>- - Should the sump where the intake pipes insert have oil in i
t??=0A>- - If so, how much is permissible?=0A>- - Stan Sutterfield
-========================
====================0A=0A=0A
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? |
A guaranteed solution to fouled plugs that won't change your operating
procedures is running mogas. Saves a half hour at annual when you don't
have to get a pick to dig at TEL in your lower plugs. Saves you $2/gal so
it'll pay for itself in ~20 hours.
I think the investment would be <$200; find your airframe and powerplant.
Petersen:
0-235-C, -C1, -C1B, -E1, -E1B, -C1C, -C1A, -H2C, -C2A, -C2B, -E2A, -E2B,
-L2A*, -L2C*, -M1*, -M2C*, -M3C*, -N2A*, -N2C*, -P1*, -P2A*, -P2C*, -P3C*
7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7AC, S7AC, 7BCM, 7CCM, 7DC, S7DC, S7CCM, 7EC, S7EC, 7FC, 7GC,
(Aeronca) 7HC, 7GCA, 7JC, 7GCB, 7KC, 7GCBA, 7ECA, 8GCBC
Todd
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org> wrote:
>
> Noel (and Scott in another reply),
>
> Thanks for the input. The Decalin RunUp product looks interesting, but
> unfortunately they say right from the start :
>
> Decalin RunUp is not approved for use in the engines of
> certified aircraft ...
>
> So no good for the Citabria. That is a pity, because it sure seems to
> make sense. I'd love to install an oil filter, but honestly I'll not
> be a partner in this plane much longer because I'm getting fairly close
> to completing an RV-7. Also, my partners have not been all that excited
> when I brought up the idea of adding an aftermarket oil filter in the
> past. I'm glad to hear you think the mags might be a contributor to the
> problem, because that is something we already HAVE to change. :)
>
> Checking the primer is a good idea. I'll add that to the list of things
> to do. In some other google-driven research I've seen the following
> suggestions :
>
> * Idle at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) for better
> scavenging of the cylinder
> * Do a plug-clean style runup (2000RPM, and lean very
> agressively for a few moments) at the start and end
> of every flight.
> * Lean almost to the point of roughness for taxi (which
> we already do)
> * Shut down at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) than the
> usual 1000RPM to help avoid lead condensing out
> during the shutdown operation
>
> Tomorrow night I'm headed out to do a plug cleaning and confirm
> whether the latest rough running was lead or not. Given what we have
> experienced lately I'm sure it will prove to be the culprit.
>
> -- Dwight
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? |
Dwight:
You did not say what plugs you are using? I would suggest REM37BY
they have an extended electrode and that improves the spark and makes
it difficult to foul.
Also - Have you:
1 - Checked the GAP of the spark plug?
2 - Check for carbon traces inside the plug tower?
3 - Checked for spring tension of the wires?
4 - Checked for OIL puddling in the cylinders?
5 - Checked the cylinder compression?
6 - Checked for carbon traces under the Mag Cap?
7 - Checked for spring tension under the Mag Cap?
8 - Checked for carbon traces inside the Mag tower?
9 - Checked for proper torque of the plugs?
10 - Checked for a snug fit of the plug wire nut / to spark plug?
Question: How are the Mags hooked up... Does one Mag fire the bottom
plugs and the other fire the top? Or does one Mag fire Half the Top
and Half the Bottom?
Barry
"Chop'd Liver"
============================================
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:23 AM, Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org> wrote:
>
> I need some advice. This is an O-235 in an 1967 Citabria 7ECA, and
> we (my partners and I) have owned for about three years. Since we
> have an oil screen, and not a filter, we do an oil change every
> 25 hours. At that time we also clean the plugs, and do a bunch of
> other random maintainence (check the battery, air in the tires,
> etc.).
>
> In the first few years of ownership we would find lead in the plugs
> and would clean it out at every oil change. But we never had it so
> bad that a plug fouled out _completely_. They were just "dirty". In
> the last year we have had a continually growing problem with the
> plugs not just getting dirty, but fouling out to the point of not
> firing. The last time this happened three of the four bottom plugs
> were _packed_ with lead deposits. It was bad enough that I thought
> I might have simply lost a mag, but it was (in the end) just the
> nasty state of the plugs.
>
> One other piece of information is the age of our mags. We have Slick
> mags, and they are getting close to the 800 hour mark. This is where
> our A&P recommends they be replaced. Given that the mags are aging
> I have _wondered_ if it is possible that they are gradually going
> downhill and might be contributing to our fouling problem. Is that
> possible? If not ..... does anyone have any insights as to why we
> are having so much trouble?
>
> At this point we can't make it 25 hours without plugs fouling OUT on
> us. We do lean agressively when we taxi, and (of course) lean in
> flight. For taxi I lean to the ragged edge where if I were to apply
> full power the engine would sag badly, so I know it is pretty darn
> lean for ground ops.
>
> As a note, the plane goes in for annual in a month, and we are already
> intending to replace mags/harness/plugs as a matter of course. But I
> hate to keep battling continually fouling plugs for even another month
> if I can avoid it. Opinions? Suggestions? Insights?
>
> -- Dwight
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? |
Lots of good suggestions ... and questions. Thanks guys. I'm going
to just answer this e-mail but will references some other comments
as well.
First, I need to double-check the plugs used. I'll find out when I
go out to the airport tomorrow night. If we aren't using the REM37BY
plugs we'll move to them at annual in a month.
Regarding the suggestion to move to MOGAS, that had come to mind and
we are fortunate in that the Citabria's previous owner purcahsed the
STC. The challenge is transporting MOGAS (and finding some in our
area without alcohol, for that matter). But it is getting tempting
to work out a solution to the MOGAS transport problem.
I'll intersperse other comments in Barry's comments/questions ....
On Wed Apr 21 18:18:07 2010, FLYaDIVE wrote :
>Dwight:
>
>You did not say what plugs you are using? I would suggest REM37BY
>they have an extended electrode and that improves the spark and makes
>it difficult to foul.
>
>Also - Have you:
>1 - Checked the GAP of the spark plug?
Yes, but it has been some time. We should check again right now.
>2 - Check for carbon traces inside the plug tower?
We have, and have found none. Just chunks of lead.
>3 - Checked for spring tension of the wires?
I'm unfamilar with this, so could you give me a little more
detail?
>4 - Checked for OIL puddling in the cylinders?
No. We'll do it.
>5 - Checked the cylinder compression?
Yes, but it was at the last annual (and was quite good at that
point in time). It'll be checked again in a month.
>6 - Checked for carbon traces under the Mag Cap?
No. That said, the mags are going to be replaced in a month.
>7 - Checked for spring tension under the Mag Cap?
No.
>8 - Checked for carbon traces inside the Mag tower?
No.
In short, we have not yet checked the internal state of the mags
at all within the last handful of months (which is the time where
we have seen the bad spike in lead fouling).
>9 - Checked for proper torque of the plugs?
Yes. We clean and re-torque at _least_ every 25 hours, and more
often when we have a fouling incident.
>10 - Checked for a snug fit of the plug wire nut / to spark plug?
Yes.
>Question: How are the Mags hooked up... Does one Mag fire the bottom
>plugs and the other fire the top? Or does one Mag fire Half the Top
>and Half the Bottom?
I believe it is half-and-half, but should double check. I'll do
that tomorrow night.
This is all good information, and I appreciate folks chiming in to
help me assess the problem. And to be clear (if you are wondering
why I've been so slack .. *grin*) this problem has been growing
gradually, and has only reached a fever pitch within the last two
or three months. Frankly, it is only in the last *month* that we
have really started to think we need to dig deeper. Again, thanks
for all the input!
-- Dwight
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| Subject: | Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? |
Hi Dwight,
Owned a 73-7ECA with a O-235 for a number of years.
First I would not go leaning the engine during taxi - your future is
looking at scored cylinders and Big $$$$.
Your problem is not carbon but lead from the 100 low lead aviation
fuel. (Never could figure out why they call it low lead.)
When you shut down, push the RPM up some (1600), leave the throttle
in that position, then pull the mixture to the cut off position. It
will blow much of the molten lead out of the engine exhaust.
You can also use ALCOR TCP fuel treatment if you can find it. We used
that in our fuel. Do a search on Google and learn about it. It's
small $ but when you consider wasting a cylinder to two, that's
nothing. If you use it, you will see a difference. Be careful
pulling plugs as often as your are (25-Hrs), use anti-seizure on the
threads and use a calibrated torque wrench to tighten them with so
you don't pull threads or crack a cylinder. I think if your use the
TCP and the shut down process as I described above you will not need
to pull the plugs every 25 hours.
jerb
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| Subject: | Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? |
I have previously run Mo-Gas in our Citabria back in early-mid 90's -
73-7ECA O-235.
The results were this - increased maintenance on items which the gas
touched - Fuel Cap seals more than once, fuel selector packing &
o-rings, carb rebuild, as it began leaking. Money saved - none.
jerb
At 02:45 PM 4/21/2010, you wrote:
>A guaranteed solution to fouled plugs that won't change your
>operating procedures is running mogas. Saves a half hour at annual
>when you don't have to get a pick to dig at TEL in your lower
>plugs. Saves you $2/gal so it'll pay for itself in ~20 hours.
>
>I think the investment would be <$200; find your airframe and powerplant.
>
>Petersen:
>0-235-C, -C1, -C1B, -E1, -E1B, -C1C, -C1A, -H2C, -C2A, -C2B, -E2A,
>-E2B, -L2A*, -L2C*, -M1*, -M2C*, -M3C*, -N2A*, -N2C*, -P1*, -P2A*,
>-P2C*, -P3C*
>7GCAA, 7GCBC, 7AC, S7AC, 7BCM, 7CCM, 7DC, S7DC, S7CCM, 7EC, S7EC,
>7FC, 7GC, (Aeronca) 7HC, 7GCA, 7JC, 7GCB, 7KC, 7GCBA, 7ECA, 8GCBC
>Todd
>
>
>On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Dwight Frye
><<mailto:dwight@openweave.org>dwight@openweave.org> wrote:
><<mailto:dwight@openweave.org>dwight@openweave.org>
>
>Noel (and Scott in another reply),
>
>Thanks for the input. The Decalin RunUp product looks interesting, but
>unfortunately they say right from the start :
>
> Decalin RunUp is not approved for use in the engines of
> certified aircraft ...
>
>So no good for the Citabria. That is a pity, because it sure seems to
>make sense. I'd love to install an oil filter, but honestly I'll not
>be a partner in this plane much longer because I'm getting fairly close
>to completing an RV-7. Also, my partners have not been all that excited
>when I brought up the idea of adding an aftermarket oil filter in the
>past. I'm glad to hear you think the mags might be a contributor to the
>problem, because that is something we already HAVE to change. :)
>
>Checking the primer is a good idea. I'll add that to the list of things
>to do. In some other google-driven research I've seen the following
>suggestions :
>
> * Idle at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) for better
> scavenging of the cylinder
> * Do a plug-clean style runup (2000RPM, and lean very
> agressively for a few moments) at the start and end
> of every flight.
> * Lean almost to the point of roughness for taxi (which
> we already do)
> * Shut down at a higher RPM (1200 suggested) than the
> usual 1000RPM to help avoid lead condensing out
> during the shutdown operation
>
>Tomorrow night I'm headed out to do a plug cleaning and confirm
>whether the latest rough running was lead or not. Given what we have
>experienced lately I'm sure it will prove to be the culprit.
>
> -- Dwight
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? |
Not true at all. Leaning aggressively with the O-235 is standard
practice in all C152s since they first came out. It will NOT harm the
cylinders. 1000-1200rpm to taxi, as lean as it will take, to the point
of stumbling if you add any throttle. It both raises the combustion
temperature enough to keep the lead compounds from condensing on the
plugs, and eliminates carbon build up. Sounds like you have been
listening to old wive's tales and anecdotal evidence, which has no
real data behind it.
KM
A&P/IA
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 4:41 PM, jerb <ulflyer@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Dwight,
> Owned a 73-7ECA with a O-235 for a number of years.
> First I would not go leaning the engine during taxi - your future is looking
> at scored cylinders and Big $$$$.
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| Subject: | Re: O-235 Plug Fouling? |
You can find mogas airports at airnav.com and there is the list of gas
stations that pump pure gasolene at pure-gas.org. There are six states
that mandate no booze in premium fuel. Here in S. Ontario (Canada) I've
never found booze in any premium gas either - so far...
It is very easy to test for alcohol.
Ken
(350 lead free hours)
Dwight Frye wrote:
> Regarding the suggestion to move to MOGAS, that had come to mind and
> we are fortunate in that the Citabria's previous owner purcahsed the
> STC. The challenge is transporting MOGAS (and finding some in our
> area without alcohol, for that matter). But it is getting tempting
> to work out a solution to the MOGAS transport problem.
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | O-235 Plug Fouling? |
Mogas is one of those things; I've had absolutely no problems with
thousands
of gallons run through an O-300. Maybe that's the difference and that's
the
only engine I've run with mogas. I bet fouling wasn't one of your
problems?
Todd
I have previously run Mo-Gas in our Citabria back in early-mid 90's -
73-7ECA O-235.
The results were this - increased maintenance on items which the gas
touched
- Fuel Cap seals more than once, fuel selector packing & o-rings, carb
rebuild, as it began leaking. Money saved - none.
jerb
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