Today's Message Index:
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1. 11:49 AM - Re: Re: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11 (Gary Vogt)
2. 05:26 PM - Re: Re: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11 (Tedd McHenry)
3. 05:44 PM - Re: Oil Filters (Speedy11@aol.com)
4. 09:11 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (FLYaDIVE)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11 |
I had a customer who, on his second engine (a factory reman), had decided t
o do =0Aan oil analysis on every oil change. His belief was that he'd have
trend data =0Afor the entire 2000 hours (O360-A4K in a Grumman TIger). He
even installed on =0Aof those ADC oil filters; the cleaner the better, rig
ht? He used Aeroshell =0A15w-50 (which is also a semi-synthetic oil)=0A=0A
Flash forward to the first annual I did on his plane in 1997. His plane wa
s =0Avery clean, well maintained. He was a very involved airplane owner.
He always =0Aparticipated in owner assisted annuals. We joked that, at his
current rate of =0Aflying, he'd have 1999 hours on his plane in 1999.=0A
=0AFlash forward to 1999. Sure enough, he had 1999 hours on his plane . .
. give =0Aor take a few. At 1999 hrs, he opted for a LyCon overhaul. Whe
n the owner =0Abrought me his plane, he told me, "This should be an easy ov
erhaul. I don't =0Awant anything fancy like port and polish or anything el
se. Just the basic =0Aoverhaul. I've set aside about $18,000 to cover the
costs."=0A=0AEngine comes off and goes to Lycon. I told Ken about the oil
analysis and ADC =0Aoil filter and that the owner expects this to be a sim
ple overhaul.=0A=0AThe next time I talked to Ken, he told me the engine wou
ld need to be aligned =0Abored (the case had been chafing), the crank neede
d to be reground (it was out =0Aof tolerance, the rod bearings were bad and
had chewed up the crank), it would =0Aneed a new cam and lifters (this pla
ne was flown over 300 hours a year), and it =0Awould need new cylinders (th
e cylinders had too many cracks in them to repair.)=0A=0AI asked about the
ADC oil filter. Ken told me he didn't like them. He felt =0Athere was too
much pressure drop across the filter and it robbed the engine of =0Aoil.
I asked about the 15w-50 oil: he likes single weight oil but said there =0A
isn't enough of a difference to make a difference. I asked about flying it
300 =0Ahours a year: he said the more the better. =0A=0AThen I asked abou
t oil analysis: The bottom line is, no one will ever make a =0Adecision ba
sed on one bad oil analysis. They'll always wait for another. And, =0Awit
h the exception of a catastrophic failure (which can be found by looking at
=0Athe oil filter) there is no benefit of doing an oil analysis. =0A=0A<<
Price out an overhaul, then price out an accident that almost totals the
=0Aaircraft (assuming you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the be
nefits. =0A>>=0A=0AIn 32 years of flying, engines just don't quit. Let me
qualify that. Engines =0Athat are properly built, maintained, and serviced
do not just fail. =0A=0AOne guy at Fox Field in Lancaster had a Harmon Ro
cket. He put the engine =0Atogether in his hangar. At WOT over the Tehach
api's, he broke his crankshaft. =0A He glided to a decent landing spot. Tu
rns out he didn't torque the cylinders =0Aon the right side. Put the engin
e back together. Engine failed again: no oil. =0A The oil pressure line w
as not tight and blew out all of the oil. =0A=0AAt the same airport there
is a guy with a Lancair 360. LyCon built his engine. =0A 10:1 compression
ratio. Fuel injected. Ported and polished. 240 hp on a =0Adyno. He runs
it at 2900 rpm everywhere he goes. Last I heard, he is still =0Arunning t
hat engine some 8 years later.=0A=0AEven an engine with a bad cam will run
seemingly forever. I had an engine =0Arebuilt with over 2000 hours on it t
hat had bent rods. Ken said it would have =0Agone another 1000 hrs. The o
nly real weak spot is the valve train. Sticking =0Avalves is common to bot
h engine makes. My solution is top overhauls at 1000 hrs =0Awith new cylin
ders. Then fly the plane to 2400 hours before major overhaul. =0A The bott
om end is bullet proof.=0A=0AMy 2 cents worth.=0AGary=0AAuCountry.com=0A=0A
=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Doug Dodson <douglas.dodson@
pobox.com>=0ATo: engines-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tue, January 18, 2011 9
:47:09 PM=0ASubject: RE: Engines-List: Re: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01
/17/11=0A=0A =0AThat technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The
term =9Ccautionary=9D =0Abegs the question. You can do what e
veryone else does, same as the lemming. =0AGood science is nice, good engi
neering is even better. Both require data (or =0Aevidence) to in order to
follow accepted practice.=0A =0APrice out for yourself an oil analysis. Fa
miliarize yourself with the =0Acredentials and writings of Mike Busch. Pri
ce out an overhaul, then price out =0Aan accident that almost totals the ai
rcraft (assuming you have insurance). =0ABalance the costs versus the bene
fits. I have not even asked you to include an =0Aanalysis of the cost for
injury or death.=0A =0AOil analysis can=99t prevent every bad thing,
but knowledge is still power, and =0Athe price of this knowledge is less th
an that of 3 gallons of fuel. The science =0A(or engineering) is well foun
ded.=0A =0A- Doug=0A =0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:
owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-engines-list-serve
r@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Speedy11@aol.com=0ASent: Tuesday, January 18,
2011 7:32 PM=0ATo: engines-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: Engines-List: Re:
Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11=0A =0ADean,=0AAs Dave mentioned, it
is good cautionary technique to do an oil sample analysis =0Aat each oil c
hange.=0AHaving said that, during ownership of nine airplanes, I have never
had an oil =0Aanalysis. I've changed the oil and filter and pressed on.
=0AWas I just lucky? Maybe.=0AAsk other aircraft owners, OBAM or certifica
ted, if they do an oil analysis at =0Aeach change. I believe you will find
very few who do. Are they just lucky? =0AMaybe.=0ARegards,=0AStan Sutter
field=0A =0APS - I have an ADC oil filter on my RV-8A so I pull the stainle
ss filter and =0Aclean it each time. I have found only a few TINY bits of
metal in the oil and =0Aonly minor bits of other "gunk." I'm using Exxon E
lite which is a =0Asemi-synthetic oil. Oh - the purists will go nuts over
that!=0A =0AIn a message dated 1/18/2011 3:05:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
, =0Aengines-list@matronics.com writes:=0AMy RV-6A has been flying for a c
ouple years now and since I have the=0A>repairman's certificate I've been d
oing the annuals and maintenance. My=0A>question is on cutting open the oil
filter after an oil change. Since I've=0A>never owned an airplane before
much less maintained one this exercise has me=0A>wondering:=0A>=0A>After th
e first few oil changes on a new/overhauled engine, do you keep=0A>cutting
open the filters and inspecting the element? =0A>=0A>Or is inspecting the e
lement not as important as the first hours after break=0A>in?=0A>=0A>Those
of you that do cut open every oil filter at every oil change, do you=0A>eve
r see fine particles in the filter element? =0A>=0A>If yes, how often do se
e these particles? =0A>=0A>What color are the particles? =0A>=0A>How large
would the particles have to be to be of concern? =0A>=0A>How many folks do
oil analysis in addition to cutting open the filter?=0A>=0A>If the oil anal
ysis says no problem but there are a small amount of fine=0A>particles in t
he filter do you continue to fly?=0A>=0A>If you have fine particles in the
filter would you take them to your local=0A>mechanic and have him/her look
them over? Or???=0A>=0A>I'm curious, I've done lots of work on cars but nev
er cut open the filters=0A>before so I don't know if fine particles would b
e present at every change.=0A>I don't want to be paranoid about this but if
a problem can be caught=0A>earlier by cutting open the filter EVERY TIME t
hen I want to be sure to=0A>continue doing that. Thanks.=0A>=0A>Dean Psiro
poulos=0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List=0Aht
tp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A =0A
============== =0A=0A=0A=0A
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11 |
On 19-Jan-11, at 11:46AM, Gary Vogt wrote:
> I had a customer who, on his second engine (a factory reman), had
> decided to do an oil analysis on every oil change.
Gary:
I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is that getting the oil
analyzed isn't worth it?
Tedd
Message 3
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Doug,
Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all
used the same reasoning you did.
I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on
which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word
cautionary begs.
Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
engines-list@matronics.com writes:
That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same
as
the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both
require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price
out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked
you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power,
and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel.
The
science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug
Message 4
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AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
OK, do I have your attention?
Here is why...
Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you
have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8
to 9 hours is more common.
Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.
BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour...
So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.
So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin On or
ADC filter.
That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil.
If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours.
But, we will work with 50 hours.
You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you.
OK, here we go....
50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added
between oil changes.
If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts
What does that mean?
Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you
have already replace ... Wait for it ...
Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the
oil capacity in your engine.
Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the
oil capacity in your engine.
SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths
or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount.
For me that is not good data.
Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus
shipping.
Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50)
NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same
amount of money?
Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner.
What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.
You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter.
For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs
... Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one thing
do they all have in common?
There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: More
Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
When it comes to this, I have stories for you!
Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR piece
of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
Barry
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com> wrote:
> Doug,
> Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all
> used the same reasoning you did.
> I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on
> which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word
> cautionary begs.
> Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
> Stan Sutterfield
> Do not archive
>
>
> In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> engines-list@matronics.com writes:
>
> That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
> "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same
> as
> the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both
> require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
>
>
> Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
> credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price
> out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
> insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked
> you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
>
>
> Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power,
> and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel.
> The
> science (or engineering) is well founded.
>
>
> - Doug
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
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