Engines-List Digest Archive

Thu 01/20/11


Total Messages Posted: 15



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:38 AM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Noel Loveys)
     2. 06:58 AM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Tedd McHenry)
     3. 07:01 AM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Doug Dodson)
     4. 07:34 AM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Richard Dudley)
     5. 07:46 AM - Re: Oil Filters (Speedy11@aol.com)
     6. 10:56 AM - Re: Re: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11 (Gary Vogt)
     7. 11:09 AM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Gary Vogt)
     8. 11:11 AM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Gary Vogt)
     9. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Gary Vogt)
    10. 11:57 AM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Richard Dudley)
    11. 11:59 AM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Richard Dudley)
    12. 07:47 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Gary Vogt)
    13. 08:11 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Kelly McMullen)
    14. 08:39 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Noel Loveys)
    15. 08:51 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Kelly McMullen)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:38:41 AM PST US
    From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in this case 67 hr won't do anything good for the engine. Change it at the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can't get fresh oil I would recommend changing the filter anyway. Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators... give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base line to work form you won't be able to notice trends in the precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents are increasing. Noel From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE Sent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY! OK, do I have your attention? Here is why... Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours. This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common. Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds. Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick. BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using. So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise. Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin On or ADC filter. That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil. If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours. But, we will work with 50 hours. You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you. OK, here we go.... 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added between oil changes. If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then... 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts What does that mean? Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you have already replace ... Wait for it ... Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil capacity in your engine. Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil capacity in your engine. SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out. Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount. For me that is not good data. Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus shipping. Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil. Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50) NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same amount of money? Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner. What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals. You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter. For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs ... Stretch it to 130 Hrs. One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one thing do they all have in common? There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: More Data is Required for Trend Analysis. When it comes to this, I have stories for you! Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper. Barry On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com> wrote: Doug, Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used the same reasoning you did. I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary begs. Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up. Stan Sutterfield Do not archive In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list@matronics.com writes: That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice. Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death. Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded. - Doug target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:58:39 AM PST US
    From: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    Barry: By your logic, a person should also self-insure for hull damage, since they are likely to spend more in the long run by buying insurance. I'm not saying that's wrong, only pointing out that there are factors not taken into consideration in your analysis, such as that extra oil changes give you peace of mind for completely different reasons than oil analyses do. They're apples and oranges. Tedd


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:01:20 AM PST US
    From: "Doug Dodson" <douglas.dodson@pobox.com>
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added between samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does. - Doug _____ From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM Subject: RE: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in this case 67 hr won't do anything good for the engine. Change it at the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can't get fresh oil I would recommend changing the filter anyway. Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators... give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base line to work form you won't be able to notice trends in the precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents are increasing. Noel From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE Sent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY! OK, do I have your attention? Here is why... Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours. This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common. Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds. Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick. BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using. So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise. Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin On or ADC filter. That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil. If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours. But, we will work with 50 hours. You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you. OK, here we go.... 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added between oil changes. If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then... 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts What does that mean? Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you have already replace ... Wait for it ... Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil capacity in your engine. Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil capacity in your engine. SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out. Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount. For me that is not good data. Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus shipping. Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil. Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50) NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same amount of money? Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner. What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals. You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter. For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs ... Stretch it to 130 Hrs. One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one thing do they all have in common? There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: More Data is Required for Trend Analysis. When it comes to this, I have stories for you! Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper. Barry On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com> wrote: Doug, Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used the same reasoning you did. I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary begs. Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up. Stan Sutterfield Do not archive In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list@matronics.com writes: That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice. Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death. Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded. - Doug target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 4


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    Time: 07:34:14 AM PST US
    From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    I've been following the thread with interest and thought that I'd add my "anecdotal" tidbit. Some years ago with my jointly owned Cherokee 235 we routinely had oil analysis done at each oil change. Soon after an oil change, my partner was away with the plane when I received a phone call from the analysis company that the results were grossly abnormal. Their conclusion from the predominant changes in a couple of elements was that there was a broken ring. I managed to contact my partner with those results. He had the cylinders bore scoped and found the scored cylinder with the broken ring. The consensus was that it was safe to return home with the broken ring. Upon return to home base, the cylinder and piston were replaced. Without the analysis and until that cylinder showed major loss of compression, we would not have known of the broken ring. The implications of continuing to run the engine with broken ring seem undesirable. Rich Dudley On 1/20/2011 9:57 AM, Doug Dodson wrote: > > I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about > trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility > comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The > reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added between > samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend > analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does. > > > - Doug > > > ------------------------- > > *From:*owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Noel > Loveys *Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM *To:* > engines-list@matronics.com *Subject:* RE: Engines-List: Re: Oil > Filters > > > I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. > If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in > this case 67 hr won't do anything good for the engine. Change it at > the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can't get fresh oil I would > recommend changing the filter anyway. > > > Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators... > give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base > line to work form you won't be able to notice trends in the > precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a > chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the > engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they > will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents > are increasing. > > > Noel > > > *From:*owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of > *FLYaDIVE *Sent:* January 20, 2011 1:39 AM *To:* > engines-list@matronics.com *Subject:* Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil > Filters > > > AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY! > > > OK, do I have your attention? > > > Here is why... > > > Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and > you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours. > > This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 > Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common. > > > Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds. > > Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick. > > BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first > hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using. > > So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise. > > Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin > On or ADC filter. > > That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your > oil. > > If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 > hours. > > But, we will work with 50 hours. > > You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare > you. > > > OK, here we go.... > > 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will > be added between oil changes. > > If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then... > > 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts > > What does that mean? > > Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you > have already replace ... Wait for it ... > > Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil > capacity in your engine. > > Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil > capacity in your engine. > > > SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after > 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out. > > Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same > amount. > > For me that is not good data. > > > Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 > plus shipping. > > Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil. > > Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt > $31.50) > > > NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the > same amount of money? > > Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 > sooner. > > What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals. > > You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your > filter. > > For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs ... > Stretch it to 130 Hrs. > > > One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one > thing do they all have in common? > > There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: > More Data is Required for Trend Analysis. > > When it comes to this, I have stories for you! > > > Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR > piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper. > > > Barry > > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com > <mailto:Speedy11@aol.com>> wrote: > > Doug, > > Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've > all used the same reasoning you did. > > I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal > evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what > question the word cautionary begs. > > Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up. > > Stan Sutterfield > > Do not archive > > > In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > engines-list@matronics.com <mailto:engines-list@matronics.com> > writes: > > That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term > "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, > same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even > better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow > accepted practice. > > > Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with > the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, > then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming > you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have > not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or > death. > > > Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still > power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons > of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded. > > > - Doug > > * * * * > *target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List* > *tp://forums.matronics.com* > *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * * > > > * * * * * * *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List* * * > *http://forums.matronics.com* * * > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * * * * * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > * > * > >


    Message 5


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    Time: 07:46:48 AM PST US
    From: Speedy11@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    Barry, Allow me to get your attention. Your opinion is one among many. There's no need to yell your opinion at the rest of us. There is nothing wrong with doing an oil analysis. It is not terribly expensive and gives peace of mind to those who like tracking data. I am not one who does oil sampling. I agree that regularly changing the oil is the best means of maintaining an aircraft engine. Stan Sutterfield In a message dated 1/20/2011 3:05:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list@matronics.com writes: AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY! OK, do I have your attention?


    Message 6


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    Time: 10:56:43 AM PST US
    From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11
    That's the bottom line. It's a waste of time and money. ________________________________ From: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org> Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 5:23:01 PM Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Engines-List Digest: 2 Msgs - 01/17/11 On 19-Jan-11, at 11:46AM, Gary Vogt wrote: I had a customer who, on his second engine (a factory reman), had decided to do an oil analysis on every oil change. Gary: I'm not sure what you're saying here. Is that getting the oil analyzed isn't worth it? Tedd


    Message 7


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    Time: 11:09:18 AM PST US
    From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    Quote " Flash forward to 1999. Sure enough, he had 1999 hours on his pla ne . =0A. . give or take a few. At 1999 hrs, he opted for a LyCon overhau l. When the =0Aowner brought me his plane, he told me, "This should be an easy overhaul. I =0Adon't want anything fancy like port and polish or anyt hing else. Just the basic =0Aoverhaul. I've set aside about $18,000 to co ver the costs."=0A=0AEngine comes off and goes to Lycon. I told Ken about the oil analysis and ADC =0Aoil filter and that the owner expects this to b e a simple overhaul.=0A=0AThe next time I talked to Ken, he told me the eng ine would need to be aligned =0Abored (the case had been chafing), the cran k needed to be reground (it was out =0Aof tolerance, the rod bearings were bad and had chewed up the crank), it would =0Aneed a new cam and lifters (t his plane was flown over 300 hours a year), and it =0Awould need new cylind ers (the cylinders had too many cracks in them to repair.) =0A"=0A=0A------ --------=0ABottom line. The oil analysis for the entire time he owned the plane did not =0Atell him his engine was trashed. =0A=0AOil analysis is a waste of time and money.=0A=0AAs for fleet operators, they too could save a lot of money just by inspecting =0Athe oil filter.=0A=0A=0A=0A____________ ____________________=0AFrom: Doug Dodson <douglas.dodson@pobox.com>=0ATo: e ngines-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:57:07 AM=0ASubjec t: RE: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters=0A=0A =0AI thought it went without say ing, but of course oil analysis is about trend =0Amonitoring. A single rep ort has little value. The utility comes by having a =0Aseries of reports a t regular intervals. The reports are normalized to account =0Afor the make up oil added between samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil =0Achange . The trend analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.=0A =0A =0A- Doug=0A =0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A =0AFrom:owner-e ngines-list-server@matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matro nics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys=0ASent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM=0ATo: engines-list@matronics.com=0ASubject: RE: Engines-List: Re: Oil Fi lters=0A =0AI agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If there is =0Aanything in the filter running it another fifty or in t his case 67 hr won=99t do =0Aanything good for the engine. Change it at the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if =0Ayou can=99t get fresh oil I would recommend changing the filter anyway.=0A =0AOil analysis is somethi ng I would recommend for fleet operators... give the =0Abean counters some thing to do. As you said without a base line to work form you =0Awon =99t be able to notice trends in the precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil =0Aanalysis should keep a chart of the results and keep both the char t and the =0Areports in the engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report =0Athey will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents are =0Aincreasing.=0A =0ANoel=0A =0AFrom:owner-engines-li st-server@matronics.com =0A[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE=0ASent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM=0ATo: engines-list@ matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters=0A =0AAN OIL ANA LYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!=0A =0AOK, do I have your attention? =0A =0AHere is why...=0A =0ALets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you have a =0Aoil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.=0AThis is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8 to =0A9 hours is more common.=0A =0ANext is the quantity of oil your engine ho lds.=0AAgain for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.=0A BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour... S o, 7 =0AQts is more in line with what you should be using.=0ASo lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.=0ANow, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin On or ADC =0Afilter.=0AThat give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil.=0AIf you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours.=0ABut, we will work with 50 ho urs.=0AYou can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare yo u.=0A =0AOK, here we go....=0A50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added =0Abetween oil changes.=0AIf yo want to u se 8 hrs per Qt then...=0A50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts =0AWhat does that mean?=0AWel l, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you =0Ahave a lready replace ... Wait for it ...=0ACase #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacit y. That is 71.4% of the oil capacity in =0Ayour engine.=0ACase #2 --- 6.26 /7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the =0Aoil capacity in your e ngine.=0A =0ASOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths or =0A6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.=0ANow some ma y say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount. =0AFor me that is not good data.=0A =0AOh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus =0Ashipping.=0ALet's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.=0AOr, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil chan ge. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50)=0A =0ANOW! You want to do something goo d for your engine and spend the same amount of =0Amoney?=0ATake that $15 an d do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner.=0AWhat about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.=0AYou will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter.=0AFor those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs ... Stretch it =0Ato 130 Hrs.=0A =0AOne last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one thi ng do =0Athey all have in common?=0AThere is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: More Data is =0ARequired for Trend Analysis. =0AWhen it comes to this, I have stories for you! =0A =0ABottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR piece of =0Amind than a ny after the fact piece of paper.=0A =0ABarry=0A =0A =0A =0A =0AOn Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com> wrote:=0ADoug,=0ANobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used =0Athe same re asoning you did.=0AI was offering no technique at all - so there was no ane cdotal evidence on which =0Ato base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary =0Abegs.=0AGetting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.=0AStan Sutterfield=0ADo not archive=0A =0A =0AIn a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, =0Aengines-list @matronics.com writes:=0AThat technique is based on anecdotal evidence at b est. The term=0A>"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as=0A>the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both=0A>require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.=0A>=0A>=0A>Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Fami liarize yourself with the=0A>credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price=0A>out an accident that almost totals the airc raft (assuming you have=0A>insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefi ts. I have not even asked=0A>you to include an analysis of the cost for in jury or death.=0A>=0A>=0A>Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but k nowledge is still power,=0A>and the price of this knowledge is less than th at of 3 gallons of fuel. The=0A>science (or engineering) is well founded. =0A>=0A>=0A>- Doug=0A =0A =0Atarget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/N avigator?Engines-List=0Atp://forums.matronics.com=0A_blank">http://www.matr onics.com/contribution=0A =0A =0A =0A =0A =0Ahttp://www.matronics.com/N avigator?Engines-List=0A =0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0A =0Ahttp://www.ma tronics.com/contribution=0A =0A =0A =0Ahref="http://www.matronics.com/Na vigator?Engines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-Listhref ="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A href="htt ============ =0A=0A=0A=0A


    Message 8


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    Time: 11:11:28 AM PST US
    From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    If the engine had a broken ring, a compression test would have picked it up .=0A=0ABesides, how would a ring break? Detonation? If that's the case, t here is more =0Adamage than just the ring.=0A=0A=0A=0A_____________________ ___________=0AFrom: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>=0ATo: engines- list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thu, January 20, 2011 7:30:24 AM=0ASubject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters=0A=0AI've been following the thread with inte rest and thought that I'd add my =0A"anecdotal" tidbit.=0A=0ASome years ago with my jointly owned Cherokee 235 we routinely had oil =0Aanalysi s done at each oil change. Soon after an oil change, my partner was =0A away with the plane when I received a phone call from the analysis comp any =0Athat the results were grossly abnormal. Their conclusion from th e =0Apredominant changes in a couple of elements was that there was a b roken =0Aring. I managed to contact my partner with those results. He h ad the =0Acylinders bore scoped and found the scored cylinder with the broken ring. =0AThe consensus was that it was safe to return home with the broken ring. Upon =0Areturn to home base, the cylinder and piston w ere replaced. Without the =0Aanalysis and until that cylinder showed ma jor loss of compression, we would =0Anot have known of the broken ring. The implications of continuing to run the =0Aengine with broken ring s eem undesirable.=0A=0ARich Dudley=0A=0AOn 1/20/2011 9:57 AM, Doug Dodson wr ote:=0A> =0A> I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about=0A> trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility=0A> comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The=0A> reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added b etween=0A> samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend=0A > analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A > =0A> =0A> - Doug=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> ------------------------- =0A> =0A> *From:*owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com=0A> [mailto:owner- engines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Noel=0A> Loveys *Se nt:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM *To:*=0A> engines-list@matronics.co m *Subject:* RE: Engines-List: Re: Oil=0A> Filters=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. =0A> If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or i n=0A> this case 67 hr won=99t do anything good for the engine. Change it at=0A> the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can=99t get f resh oil I would=0A> recommend changing the filter anyway.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet opera tors...=0A> give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base=0A> line to work form you won=99t be able to notice trends in the=0A> precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a=0A> chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the=0A> engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they=0A> will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents=0A> are increasing.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Noel=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> *From:*owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com=0A> [mailto:owner-engin es-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of=0A> *FLYaDIVE *Sent:* Jan uary 20, 2011 1:39 AM *To:*=0A> engines-list@matronics.com *Subject:* Re: E ngines-List: Re: Oil=0A> Filters=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> AN OIL ANALYSIS I S A WASTE OF MONEY!=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> OK, do I have your attention?=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Here is why...=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Lets say you are running o ne of the two major manufacture engines and=0A> you have a oil consum ption of 1 quart in 10 hours.=0A> =0A> This is slightly above average for L ycoming & Continental, usually 1=0A> Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more commo n.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.=0A> =0A> Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick .=0A> =0A> BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first=0A> hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.=0A> =0A> So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.=0A> =0A> Now, what kin d of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin=0A> On or ADC filter.=0A> =0A> That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your=0A> oil.=0A> =0A> If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25=0A> hours.=0A> =0A> But, we will work w ith 50 hours.=0A> =0A> You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare=0A> you.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> OK, here we go....=0A> =0A> 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts wil l=0A> be added between oil changes.=0A> =0A> If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...=0A> =0A> 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts=0A> =0A> What does that mean?=0A> =0A > Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis yo u=0A> have already replace ... Wait for it ...=0A> =0A> Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil=0A> capacity in your e ngine.=0A> =0A> Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% o f the oil=0A> capacity in your engine.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> SOOoooo Wha t are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after=0A> 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.=0A> =0A> Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same=0A> amount.=0A> =0A> Fo r me that is not good data.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Oh, how much does it cost fo r oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15=0A> plus shipping.=0A> =0A> Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.=0A> =0A> Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt ==0A> $ 31.50)=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> NOW! You want to do something good for your engin e and spend the=0A> same amount of money?=0A> =0A> Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3=0A> sooner.=0A> =0A> Wha t about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.=0A> =0A > You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your=0A > filter.=0A> =0A> For those of you that are already changing your filter a t 100 Hrs ...=0A> Stretch it to 130 Hrs.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one=0A> thing d o they all have in common?=0A> =0A> There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this:=0A> More Data is Required for Trend Analy sis.=0A> =0A> When it comes to this, I have stories for you!=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and Y OUR=0A> piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> Barry=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> On Wed, Jan 19 , 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com=0A> <mailto:Speedy11@aol.com>> wrote: =0A> =0A> Doug,=0A> =0A> Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a g reat idea. We've=0A> all used the same reasoning you did.=0A> =0A> I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal=0A> evid ence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what=0A> quest ion the word cautionary begs.=0A> =0A> Getting an oil analysis is a great t echnique. Keep it up.=0A> =0A> Stan Sutterfield=0A> =0A> Do not archive=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,=0A> engines-list@matronics.com <mailto:engines-list@m atronics.com>=0A> writes:=0A> =0A> That technique is based on anecdotal evi dence at best. The term =0A> "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does,=0A> same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even=0A> better. Both require data (or evid ence) to in order to follow=0A> accepted practice.=0A> =0A> =0A> Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with=0A> the crede ntials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul,=0A> then pr ice out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming=0A> you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have=0A> n ot even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or=0A > death.=0A> =0A> =0A> Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but know ledge is still=0A> power, and the price of this knowledge is less tha n that of 3 gallons=0A> of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded.=0A> =0A> =0A> - Doug=0A> =0A> * * * * =0A> *target="_blan k">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List* =0A> *tp://forums.matro nics.com* =0A> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * *=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> * * * * * * *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List* * * =0A> *http://forums.matronics.com* * * =0A> *http://www.matronics.com/con tribution* * * * * *=0A> =0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Eng ines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List=0A>t=0A>=0A> =0A href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A> href ="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=0A> =0A> =0A*=0A> *=0A> =0A> Features=0ABrowse, Chat,=0A> available ==== =0A=0A=0A=0A


    Message 9


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    Time: 11:13:11 AM PST US
    From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    "There is nothing wrong with doing an oil analysis. It is not terribly expensive and gives peace of mind to those who like tracking data." Kind of like the TSA. It does nothing for your safety, it just makes you feel good. Come to think of it, masturbation does the same thing. ________________________________ From: "Speedy11@aol.com" <Speedy11@aol.com> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 7:44:21 AM Subject: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters Barry, Allow me to get your attention. Your opinion is one among many. There's no need to yell your opinion at the rest of us. There is nothing wrong with doing an oil analysis. It is not terribly expensive and gives peace of mind to those who like tracking data. I am not one who does oil sampling. I agree that regularly changing the oil is the best means of maintaining an aircraft engine. Stan Sutterfield In a message dated 1/20/2011 3:05:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list@matronics.com writes: AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY! > >OK, do I have your attention? > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 11:57:17 AM PST US
    From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    To answer your questions: 1. Possibly, a compression test would pick up a broken ring. But the next compression test would be done at the next annual which would have been done months later with the damage continuing. 2. We don't know how what caused the ring to break. The engine had approximately 700 hours since new. 3. There were no signs of detonation and the problem did not recur. 4. The oil analysis picked up the broken ring because of the scoring of the cylinder wall and the increased of the elements from the scored cylinder wall and scored piston. And yes, the cylinder wall was scored as well as the piston. The damage was enough to replace both the piston and cylinder. Though it was about 40 years ago, I still have the piston with its gouges. 4. That experience convinced us that the investments of, whatever, $10-$15 and a few minutes of our time were worthwhile. Regards, Rich On 1/20/2011 2:09 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: > If the engine had a broken ring, a compression test would have picked > it up. > > Besides, how would a ring break? Detonation? If that's the case, > there is more damage than just the ring. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Richard Dudley <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net> > *To:* engines-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thu, January 20, 2011 7:30:24 AM > *Subject:* Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters > > I've been following the thread with interest and thought that I'd add > my "anecdotal" tidbit. > > Some years ago with my jointly owned Cherokee 235 we routinely had oil > analysis done at each oil change. Soon after an oil change, my partner > was away with the plane when I received a phone call from the analysis > company that the results were grossly abnormal. Their conclusion from > the predominant changes in a couple of elements was that there was a > broken ring. I managed to contact my partner with those results. He > had the cylinders bore scoped and found the scored cylinder with the > broken ring. The consensus was that it was safe to return home with > the broken ring. Upon return to home base, the cylinder and piston > were replaced. Without the analysis and until that cylinder showed > major loss of compression, we would not have known of the broken ring. > The implications of continuing to run the engine with broken ring seem > undesirable. > > Rich Dudley > > On 1/20/2011 9:57 AM, Doug Dodson wrote: > > > > > I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis > is about > > > trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The > utility > > > comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The > > > reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added > between > > > samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend > > > analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------- > > > > > > *From:*owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf > Of *Noel > > > Loveys *Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM *To:* > > > engines-list@matronics.com *Subject:* RE: Engines-List: Re: > Oil > > > Filters > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for > 100 hr. > > > If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty > or in > > > this case 67 hr wont do anything good for the engine. Change > it at > > > the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you cant get fresh oil I > would > > > recommend changing the filter anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet > operators... > > > give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a > base > > > line to work form you wont be able to notice trends in the > > > precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should > keep a > > > chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports > in the > > > engine log. That way as they update the chart after each > report they > > > will have to see if trends continue or if one or more > constituents > > > are increasing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Noel > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:*owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com > > > [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf > Of > > > *FLYaDIVE *Sent:* January 20, 2011 1:39 AM *To:* > > > engines-list@matronics.com *Subject:* Re: Engines-List: Re: > Oil > > > Filters > > > > > > > > > > > > AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY! > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, do I have your attention? > > > > > > > > > > > > Here is why... > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture > engines and > > > you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours. > > > > > > This is slightly above average for Lycoming & > Continental, usually 1 > > > Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common. > > > > > > > > > > > > Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds. > > > > > > Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip > stick. > > > > > > BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the > first > > > hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be > using. > > > > > > So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise. > > > > > > Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have > a Spin > > > On or ADC filter. > > > > > > That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should > change your > > > oil. > > > > > > If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil > change in 25 > > > hours. > > > > > > But, we will work with 50 hours. > > > > > > You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really > scare > > > you. > > > > > > > > > > > > OK, here we go.... > > > > > > 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 > Qts will > > > be added between oil changes. > > > > > > If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then... > > > > > > 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts > > > > > > What does that mean? > > > > > > Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil > analysis you > > > have already replace ... Wait for it ... > > > > > > Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the > oil > > > capacity in your engine. > > > > > > Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of > the oil > > > capacity in your engine. > > > > > > > > > > > > SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil > after > > > 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out. > > > > > > Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out > the same > > > amount. > > > > > > For me that is not good data. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 > to $15 > > > plus shipping. > > > > > > Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil. > > > > > > Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x > $4.50/Qt > > > $31.50) > > > > > > > > > > > > NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend > the > > > same amount of money? > > > > > > Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is > 1/3 > > > sooner. > > > > > > What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour > intervals. > > > > > > You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND > your > > > filter. > > > > > > For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 > Hrs ... > > > Stretch it to 130 Hrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. > What one > > > thing do they all have in common? > > > > > > There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like > this: > > > More Data is Required for Trend Analysis. > > > > > > When it comes to this, I have stories for you! > > > > > > > > > > > > Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine > and YOUR > > > piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper. > > > > > > > > > > > > Barry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com > > > <mailto:Speedy11@aol.com>> wrote: > > > > > > Doug, > > > > > > Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. > We've > > > all used the same reasoning you did. > > > > > > I was offering no technique at all - so there was no > anecdotal > > > evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure > what > > > question the word cautionary begs. > > > > > > Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up. > > > > > > Stan Sutterfield > > > > > > Do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard > Time, > > > engines-list@matronics.com > <mailto:engines-list@matronics.com> > > > writes: > > > > > > That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The > term > > > "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else > does, > > > same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering > is even > > > better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow > > > accepted practice. > > > > > > > > > Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself > with > > > the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an > overhaul, > > > then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft > (assuming > > > you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I > have > > > not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for > injury or > > > death. > > > > > > > > > Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is > still > > > power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 > gallons > > > of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded. > > > > > > > > > - Doug > > > > > > * * * * > > > > *target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List* > > > > *tp://forums.matronics.com* > > > *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * * > > > > > > > > > > > > * * * * * * *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List* > * * > > > *http://forums.matronics.com* * * > > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * * * * * > > > > > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List > > > > > > > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > > > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c > > > > > > > * > > * > > > > > > > Features > > Browse, Chat, > > > > available via > > > > generous > > > > > > > > > *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-Listhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * > > > *


    Message 11


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    Time: 11:59:53 AM PST US
    From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    WOW! There is more to this than inconvenience when we are subjected to that kind of diatribe!!! On 1/20/2011 2:10 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: > "There is nothing wrong with doing an oil analysis. It is not > terribly expensive and gives peace of mind to those who like tracking > data." > > Kind of like the TSA. It does nothing for your safety, it just makes > you feel good. > > Come to think of it, masturbation does the same thing. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* "Speedy11@aol.com" <Speedy11@aol.com> > *To:* engines-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Thu, January 20, 2011 7:44:21 AM > *Subject:* Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters > > Barry, > Allow me to get your attention. > Your opinion is one among many. There's no need to yell your opinion > at the rest of us. > There is nothing wrong with doing an oil analysis. It is not terribly > expensive and gives peace of mind to those who like tracking data. > I am not one who does oil sampling. I agree that regularly changing > the oil is the best means of maintaining an aircraft engine. > Stan Sutterfield > In a message dated 1/20/2011 3:05:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > engines-list@matronics.com writes: > > AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY! > > OK, do I have your attention? > > * > > > * > > * > > > *


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:47:25 PM PST US
    From: Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    what kind of engine?=0A=0APulling the engine through will reveal a weak cyl inder.=0A=0AFlying a plane with which you are familiar will reveal a weak e ngine.=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Richard Dudley < rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>=0ATo: engines-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thu, Janu ary 20, 2011 11:54:29 AM=0ASubject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters=0A=0A To answer your questions:=0A1. Possibly, a compression test w ould pick up a broken ring. But =0Athe next compression test would be done at the next annual which =0Awould have been don e months later with the damage continuing.=0A2. We don't know how what caused the ring to break. The engine had =0Aapproxi mately 700 hours since new.=0A3. There were no signs of detonation and the problem did not =0Arecur.=0A4. The oil analysis picked up the broken ring because of the =0Ascoring of the cylinder wall a nd the increased of the elements =0Afrom the scored cylinder wall and scored piston. And yes, the =0Acylinder wall was sco red as well as the piston. The damage was =0Aenough to replac e both the piston and cylinder. Though it was =0Aabout 40 yea rs ago, I still have the piston with its gouges.=0A4. That ex perience convinced us that the investments of, whatever, =0A$ 10-$15 and a few minutes of our time were worthwhile.=0A=0ARe gards,=0ARich=0A=0A=0A=0AOn 1/20/2011 2:09 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: =0AIf the e ngine had a broken ring, a compression test would have picked =0A it up.=0A>=0A>=0A>Besides, how would a ring break? Detonation? If that's the case, =0A>there is more damage than just the ring.=0A>=0A>=0A >=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1@bell south.net>=0A>To: engines-list@matronics.com=0A>Sent: Thu, Ja nuary 20, 2011 7:30:24 AM=0A>Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters=0A> =0A>I've been following the thread with interest and thought th at I'd =0A>add my "anecdotal" tidbit.=0A>=0A>Some years ago with my jointly owned Cherokee 235 we routinely had =0A>oil analysis done at e ach oil change. Soon after an oil change, my =0A>partner was aw ay with the plane when I received a phone call from =0A>the ana lysis company that the results were grossly abnormal. Their =0A >conclusion from the predominant changes in a couple of element s was =0A>that there was a broken ring. I managed to contact my partner with =0A>those results. He had the cylinders bore scop ed and found the scored =0A>cylinder with the broken ring. The consensus was that it was safe to =0A>return home with the brok en ring. Upon return to home base, the =0A>cylinder and piston were replaced. Without the analysis and until =0A>that cylinder showed major loss of compression, we would not have =0A>known of the broken ring. The implications of continuing to run the =0A>engine with broken ring seem undesirable.=0A>=0A>Rich Dudle y=0A>=0A>On 1/20/2011 9:57 AM, Doug Dodson wrote:=0A>> =0A>=0A>> I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis=0A>is abou t=0A>=0A>> trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The=0A>utility=0A>=0A>> comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The=0A>=0A>> reports are normalized to account for t he makeup oil added=0A>between=0A>=0A>> samples. Have a sampl e analyzed at each oil change. The trend=0A>=0A>> analysis wi ll show an issue before the oil filter does.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A >> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> - Doug=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A> =0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> -------------------------=0A>=0A>> =0A> =0A>> *From:*owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com=0A>=0A>> [mailto:owner -engines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf=0A>Of *Noel=0A >=0A>> Loveys *Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM *To: *=0A>=0A>> engines-list@matronics.com *Subject:* RE: Engines-List: Re:=0A>O il=0A>=0A>> Filters=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for=0A>100 hr.=0A>=0A> > If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty =0A>or in=0A>=0A>> this case 67 hr won=99t do anything good for the engine. Change=0A>it at=0A>=0A>> the 33 hr with the oil. In fa ct if you can=99t get fresh oil I=0A>would=0A>=0A>> rec ommend changing the filter anyway.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> O il analysis is something I would recommend for fleet=0A>operators...=0A>=0A >> give the bean counters something to do. As you said withou t a=0A>base=0A>=0A>> line to work form you won=99t be able to notice trends in the=0A>=0A>> precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should=0A>keep a=0A>=0A>> chart of the results a nd keep both the chart and the reports=0A>in the=0A>=0A>> eng ine log. That way as they update the chart after each=0A>repo rt they=0A>=0A>> will have to see if trends continue or if one or more=0A>c onstituents=0A>=0A>> are increasing.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Noel=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> *From:*owner-engines-list-serv er@matronics.com=0A>=0A>> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf=0A>Of=0A>=0A>> *FLYaDIVE *Sent:* January 20, 2011 1:39 AM *To:*=0A>=0A>> engines-list@matronics.com *Subject:* Re: Engines-Li st: Re:=0A>Oil=0A>=0A>> Filters=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> AN O IL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> OK, do I have your attention?=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Here is w hy...=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Lets say you are running one o f the two major manufacture=0A>engines and=0A>=0A>> you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> This is slight ly above average for Lycoming &=0A>Continental, usually 1=0A>=0A>> Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Next is t he quantity of oil your engine holds.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip=0A>stick.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the=0A>first=0A>=0A>> hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be=0A>using.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> So lets use 7 Qts for t his exercise.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Now, what kind of oil filter are you using ? Lets say you have=0A>a Spin=0A>=0A>> On or ADC filter.=0A> =0A>> =0A>=0A>> That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should=0A>change your=0A>=0A>> oil.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil=0A>change in 25=0A> =0A>> hours.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> But, we will work with 50 hours.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really=0A>scare=0A>=0A>> you.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> OK, here we go....=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5=0A>Qts will=0A>=0A>> be added between oil changes.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...=0A>=0A> > =0A>=0A>> 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> What does that mean?=0A> =0A>> =0A>=0A>> Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil=0A>analysis you=0A>=0A>> have already replace ... Wait for it .. .=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the=0A>oil=0A>=0A>> capacity in your engine.=0A>=0A>> =0A >=0A>> Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89 .4% of=0A>the oil=0A>=0A>> capacity in your engine.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A> =0A>> =0A>=0A>> SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil=0A>after=0A>=0A>> 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been s wapped out.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Now some may say that is OK as long as you a lways swap out=0A>the same=0A>=0A>> amount.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A> > For me that is not good data.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12=0A> to $15=0A>=0A>> plus shipping.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Or, 4 7.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x=0A>$4.50/Qt ==0A>=0A>> $31.50)=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend=0A>the=0A>=0A> > same amount of money?=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Take that $15 and do an oil chan ge at 33 Hours ... That is=0A>1/3=0A>=0A>> sooner.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour=0A>interval s.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND=0A>your=0A>=0A>> filter.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100=0A>Hrs .. .=0A>=0A>> Stretch it to 130 Hrs.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> On e last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports.=0A>Wh at one=0A>=0A>> thing do they all have in common?=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like=0A>thi s:=0A>=0A>> More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Wh en it comes to this, I have stories for you!=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine=0A>and YOUR=0A>=0A>> piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Barry=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A >=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A> > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com=0A>=0A>> <mailto:Speed y11@aol.com>> wrote:=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Doug,=0A>=0A>> =0A> =0A>> Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea.=0A>We've=0A>=0A>> all used the same reasoning you did.=0A>=0A>> =0A> =0A>> I was offering no technique at all - so there was no=0A>anecdotal=0A> =0A>> evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not s ure=0A>what=0A>=0A>> question the word cautionary begs.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.=0A> =0A>> =0A>=0A>> Stan Sutterfield=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Do not archive=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> In a message dated 1/19/ 2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard=0A>Time,=0A>=0A>> engines- list@matronics.com=0A><mailto:engines-list@matronics.com>=0A>=0A>> writes: =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The=0A>term =0A>=0A>> "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else=0A>does,=0A>=0A>> same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering=0A>is even=0A>=0A>> b etter. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow =0A>=0A>> accepted practice.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Price out for you rself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself=0A>with=0A>=0A>> the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an=0A>o verhaul,=0A>=0A>> then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft=0A>(assuming=0A>=0A>> you have insurance). Balance the cost s versus the benefits. I=0A>have=0A>=0A>> not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for=0A>injury or=0A>=0A>> death.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Oil analysis can't prevent every bad th ing, but knowledge is=0A>still=0A>=0A>> power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3=0A>gallons=0A>=0A>> of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded.=0A>=0A >> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> - Doug=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> * * * * =0A>=0A>>=0A>*targ et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*=0A>=0A>=0A>> *tp://forums.matronics.com* =0A>=0A>> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution* * *=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> * * * * * * *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*=0A>* * =0A>=0A>> *http://forums.matronics.com* * * =0A>=0A>> *http://www.mat ronics.com/contribution* * * * * *=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>>=0A>href ="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List">http://www.matronics.c om/Navigator?Engines-List=0A>=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> =0A>href="http://forums.m atronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com=0A>>=0A>href="http://www.matron ics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>> =0A>*=0A >> *=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>>=0A>Features=0A>=0A>Browse, Chat,=0A>=0A>>=0A>availa ble via=0A>=0A>>=0A>generous=0A>=0A>>=0A>> =0A>=0A>>=0A>=0A>http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Engines-Listhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A> -======================== ================== =0A=0A=0A=0A


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:11:03 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com>
    It won't on a engine that has a single break in a compression ring. There will be very little loss of compression. All that will be found is shavings in the filter *if* they get by the suction screen, and elevated iron levels. Rings break from age, piston slap, you name it. I personally experienced ring breakage on two different O-300s, one on a rental 172, broke rings in 4 cylinders @1500 hours while in cruise flight, one ring in one cylinder in C170 I owned in the past, cause unknown, 800 SMOH. The later didn't show any drop in compression as the ring stayed put, just splitting where there was a ring gap. Just found shavings in the oil screen and elevated iron in oil analysis. KM A&P/IA On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 8:44 PM, Gary Vogt <teamgrumman@yahoo.com> wrote: > what kind of engine? > > Pulling the engine through will reveal a weak cylinder. > > Flying a plane with which you are familiar will reveal a weak engine. > > ------------------------------ > * * > > On 1/20/2011 2:09 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: > > If the engine had a broken ring, a compression test would have picked it > up. > > Besides, how would a ring break? Detonation? If that's the case, there > is more damage than just the ring. > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:39:27 PM PST US
    From: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys@yahoo.ca>
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    With the damage you describe it would have to show up in an oil analysis. This is a clear place where charting the results from change to change would have been helpful. As for oil analysis being a waste of time and money it sure is, if you don=99t keep up the schedule and don=99t bother to chart the results. Oil analysis will show problems that you won=99t catch in a filter but what does it hurt to open a filter and have a look at the medium? If you find anything it could save you lot$ of $$$ before an analysis is returned. On oil changes the short of it is more is better but filter changes are probably more important. Especially if your engine has a pressure by pass on the filter. Noel From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt Sent: January 20, 2011 3:37 PM Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters Quote " Flash forward to 1999. Sure enough, he had 1999 hours on his plane . . . give or take a few. At 1999 hrs, he opted for a LyCon overhaul. When the owner brought me his plane, he told me, "This should be an easy overhaul. I don't want anything fancy like port and polish or anything else. Just the basic overhaul. I've set aside about $18,000 to cover the costs." Engine comes off and goes to Lycon. I told Ken about the oil analysis and ADC oil filter and that the owner expects this to be a simple overhaul. The next time I talked to Ken, he told me the engine would need to be aligned bored (the case had been chafing), the crank needed to be reground (it was out of tolerance, the rod bearings were bad and had chewed up the crank), it would need a new cam and lifters (this plane was flown over 300 hours a year), and it would need new cylinders (the cylinders had too many cracks in them to repair.) " -------------- Bottom line. The oil analysis for the entire time he owned the plane did not tell him his engine was trashed. Oil analysis is a waste of time and money. As for fleet operators, they too could save a lot of money just by inspecting the oil filter. _____ From: Doug Dodson <douglas.dodson@pobox.com> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:57:07 AM Subject: RE: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The reports are normalized to account for the makeup oil added between samples. Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend analysis will show an issue before the oil filter does. - Doug _____ From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel Loveys Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM Subject: RE: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in this case 67 hr won=99t do anything good for the engine. Change it at the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can=99t get fresh oil I would recommend changing the filter anyway. Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators... give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base line to work form you won=99t be able to notice trends in the precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents are increasing. Noel From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE Sent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY! OK, do I have your attention? Here is why... Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours. This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common. Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds. Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick. BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using. So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise. Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin On or ADC filter. That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil. If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25 hours. But, we will work with 50 hours. You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you. OK, here we go.... 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be added between oil changes. If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then... 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts What does that mean? Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you have already replace ... Wait for it ... Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil capacity in your engine. Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil capacity in your engine. SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out. Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same amount. For me that is not good data. Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15 plus shipping. Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil. Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50) NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same amount of money? Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner. What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals. You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter. For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs ... Stretch it to 130 Hrs. One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one thing do they all have in common? There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: More Data is Required for Trend Analysis. When it comes to this, I have stories for you! Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper. Barry On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com> wrote: Doug, Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all used the same reasoning you did. I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the word cautionary begs. Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up. Stan Sutterfield Do not archive In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, engines-list@matronics.com writes: That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does, same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice. Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death. Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still power, and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel. The science (or engineering) is well founded. - Doug target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List tp://forums.matronics.com _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List http://forums.matronics.com http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List <http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List%22%3ehttp://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Engines-Listhref=%22http://forums.matronics.com%22%3eht tp://forums.matronics.com> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-Listhref="http://forums.ma tronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution <http://www.matronics.com/contribution%22%3ehttp:/www.matronics.com/c> ">http://www.matronics.com/c http://www.matro===================


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    Time: 08:51:38 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Oil Filters
    From: Kelly McMullen <apilot2@gmail.com>
    A filter will catch things oil analysis wont, and vice versa. Oil analysis is for microscopic size particles, filter is to get things that are visible size. Fretting is likely to get some microscopic aluminum in oil. Piston pi n may show there but is more likely to spot flakes in filter. On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Noel Loveys <noelloveys@yahoo.ca> wrote: > With the damage you describe it would have to show up in an oil analysis. > This is a clear place where charting the results from change to change wo uld > have been helpful. > > > As for oil analysis being a waste of time and money it sure is, if you > don=92t keep up the schedule and don=92t bother to chart the results. > > > Oil analysis will show problems that you won=92t catch in a filter but wh at > does it hurt to open a filter and have a look at the medium? If you find > anything it could save you lot$ of $$$ before an analysis is returned. > > > On oil changes the short of it is more is better but filter changes are > probably more important. Especially if your engine has a pressure by pas s > on the filter. > > > Noel > >




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