Today's Message Index:
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1. 06:51 AM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Richard Dudley)
2. 12:59 PM - =?Windows-1252?B?UmU6IEVuZ2luZXMtTGlzdDogUmU6IE9pbCBGaWx0ZXtyct5z? (pautenried@gmail.com)
3. 01:39 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (FLYaDIVE)
4. 02:48 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Richard Dudley)
5. 03:08 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Bernard Despins)
6. 03:30 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Kelly McMullen)
7. 03:46 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (FLYaDIVE)
8. 05:05 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Noel Loveys)
9. 05:05 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (William Dean)
10. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (FLYaDIVE)
11. 05:24 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (FLYaDIVE)
12. 05:38 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Noel Loveys)
13. 05:42 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Noel Loveys)
Message 1
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Just to complete the story of the Cherokee 235 with the broken ring. The
235 had a Lycoming O-540, a six cylinder engine de-rated to 235 hp.
It had been our procedure to send an oil sample for analysis at
_*every*_ oil change. So, we had a well documented baseline when we got
an abnormal analysis. The analysis company who had done our previous
analyses noted it immediately and notified us by telephone even before
we received the detailed analysis by mail. They told us that the result,
because of higher than normal iron and aluminum, and some other elements
unique to the rings, that it probably was a broken ring.
If there was a drop in compression on one out of six cylinders it was
not noticed in the performance of the engine and it was not normal
practice to do a compression test between annuals without some reason.
This experience was a clear cut justification and stone simple
reinforcement for the minimal inconvenience and trivial expense of
having an oil analysis at each oil change. What more evidence would
anyone need to become a believer???
And, why would anyone argue vehemently against such a simple,
inexpensive monitor of engine health??
Rich
On 1/20/2011 11:34 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
>
> With the damage you describe it would have to show up in an oil
> analysis. This is a clear place where charting the results from
> change to change would have been helpful.
>
> As for oil analysis being a waste of time and money it sure is, if you
> dont keep up the schedule and dont bother to chart the results.
>
> Oil analysis will show problems that you wont catch in a filter but
> what does it hurt to open a filter and have a look at the medium? If
> you find anything it could save you lot$ of $$$ before an analysis is
> returned.
>
> On oil changes the short of it is more is better but filter changes
> are probably more important. Especially if your engine has a pressure
> by pass on the filter.
>
> Noel
>
> *From:*owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Gary Vogt
> *Sent:* January 20, 2011 3:37 PM
> *To:* engines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
>
> Quote " Flash forward to 1999. Sure enough, he had 1999 hours on
> his plane . . . give or take a few. At 1999 hrs, he opted for a
> LyCon overhaul. When the owner brought me his plane, he told me,
> "This should be an easy overhaul. I don't want anything fancy like
> port and polish or anything else. Just the basic overhaul. I've set
> aside about $18,000 to cover the costs."
>
> Engine comes off and goes to Lycon. I told Ken about the oil analysis
> and ADC oil filter and that the owner expects this to be a simple
> overhaul.
>
> The next time I talked to Ken, he told me the engine would need to be
> aligned bored (the case had been chafing), the crank needed to be
> reground (it was out of tolerance, the rod bearings were bad and had
> chewed up the crank), it would need a new cam and lifters (this plane
> was flown over 300 hours a year), and it would need new cylinders (the
> cylinders had too many cracks in them to repair.) "
>
> --------------
>
> Bottom line. The oil analysis for the entire time he owned the plane
> did not tell him his engine was trashed.
>
> Oil analysis is a waste of time and money.
>
> As for fleet operators, they too could save a lot of money just by
> inspecting the oil filter.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*Doug Dodson <douglas.dodson@pobox.com>
> *To:* engines-list@matronics.com
> *Sent:* Thu, January 20, 2011 6:57:07 AM
> *Subject:* RE: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
>
> I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about
> trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility
> comes by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The reports
> are normalized to account for the makeup oil added between samples.
> Have a sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend analysis will
> show an issue before the oil filter does.
>
> - Doug
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Noel
> Loveys
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM
> *To:* engines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* RE: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
>
> I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If
> there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in this
> case 67 hr wont do anything good for the engine. Change it at the 33
> hr with the oil. In fact if you cant get fresh oil I would recommend
> changing the filter anyway.
>
> Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators...
> give the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base
> line to work form you wont be able to notice trends in the
> precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a
> chart of the results and keep both the chart and the reports in the
> engine log. That way as they update the chart after each report they
> will have to see if trends continue or if one or more constituents are
> increasing.
>
> Noel
>
> *From:*owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *FLYaDIVE
> *Sent:* January 20, 2011 1:39 AM
> *To:* engines-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
>
> AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
>
> OK, do I have your attention?
>
> Here is why...
>
> Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and
> you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
>
> This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1
> Qt in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
>
> Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
>
> Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.
>
> BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first
> hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.
>
> So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
>
> Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin
> On or ADC filter.
>
> That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil.
>
> If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25
> hours.
>
> But, we will work with 50 hours.
>
> You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you.
>
> OK, here we go....
>
> 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be
> added between oil changes.
>
> If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
>
> 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts
>
> What does that mean?
>
> Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you
> have already replace ... Wait for it ...
>
> Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the
> oil capacity in your engine.
>
> Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the
> oil capacity in your engine.
>
> SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after
> 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
>
> Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same
> amount.
>
> For me that is not good data.
>
> Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15
> plus shipping.
>
> Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
>
> Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt = $31.50)
>
> NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same
> amount of money?
>
> Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner.
>
> What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.
>
> You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter.
>
> For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs
> ... Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
>
> One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one
> thing do they all have in common?
>
> There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this:
> More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
>
> When it comes to this, I have stories for you!
>
> Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR
> piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
>
> Barry
>
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com
> <mailto:Speedy11@aol.com>> wrote:
>
> Doug,
>
> Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've
> all used the same reasoning you did.
>
> I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal
> evidence on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what
> question the word cautionary begs.
>
> Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
>
> Stan Sutterfield
>
> Do not archive
>
> In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> engines-list@matronics.com <mailto:engines-list@matronics.com> writes:
>
> That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
> "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else
> does, same as
> the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even
> better. Both
> require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
>
>
> Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
> credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul,
> then price
> out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
> insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not
> even asked
> you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
>
>
> Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still
> power,
> and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of
> fuel. The
> science (or engineering) is well founded.
>
>
> - Doug
>
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| Subject: | =?Windows-1252?B?UmU6IEVuZ2luZXMtTGlzdDogUmU6IE9pbCBGaWx0ZXtyct5z? |
RXJlUEhIaGhIaEhoaEh5csKudGhodGcgdHl0cg0KU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFZlcml6b24gV2lyZWxl
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Message 3
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Rich:
It has been a few years since I flew a 235. But, don't they have oil fill
necks and dip sticks?
Why did you have to WAIT till you received an oil analysis report to find
out that you had a broken ring? SEE what happens when you put your FEELINGS
ahead of common sense. And that is why most GA pilots get oil analysis done
... FEELINGS! It gives them a warm and fuzzy. So what does a oil fill neck
and a dip stick have to do with it? Just LQQK at thew COLOR of the oil and
that should tell you something! If it changes to dark/black in a short time
you KNOW something is wrong. A broken ring will cause the oil to go
dark/black in a very short time. But you were willing to wait till you got
the oil analysis results before you or your partner just LQQK'd at the oil!
Do you have EGT & CHT probes on that plane? If so HIGH CHT will be SCREAMING
- Something is wrong. OK, No CHT on the plane... Surely you have an Oil
Temp Gage! That would also be increasing as the blow-by increases with a
broken ring as as the the temps increase.
Compression Check - Next to useless. As someone just said ... How often do
you do a compression check; once a year at annual? So just as waiting for
Annual Time to fix a problem waiting for oil analysis results delays a
prompt response.
So, once again one is expecting a warm fuzzy feeling - AFTER the fact. One
is relying on analysis company NOT to make a mistake. Meanwhile people
think they are doing something good for their engine. They are doing
NOTHING for their engine, they are ONLY justifying their actions with Monday
Morning Quarterbacking.
Also as I stated and explained with facts ... What are you really analyzing,
oil that has had 71% of the oil replaced in a 50 hour period.
Think of it this way:
If you changed your oil at 30 hour intervals you would know and see the
color of the oil.
So and quick change in color or smell would be much easily detected. And
this is something that does not require a huge delay in time while operating
your engine under adverse conditions.
AND MAYBE - If the oil was changed sooner you would have not had a ring
failure. OK! I'm really stretching with that statement.
So don't go patting yourself on the back for having your oil analyzed OR for
waiting to get a analysis report and making a phone call. OR for making the
decision to fly back home with a bad ring. So as you say: "What more
evidence would anyone need to become a believer???"
Barry
PS:
By the way - Flying back is another entire decision making process that
could go under the folder of: "I learned from that".
Message 4
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When confronted with facts or observations that disagree with one's
religion or politics, speculate about missed observations or mistakes
and by all means, attack.
End of wasted time and futile communication.
Regards,
Rich
==============================================================
On 1/21/2011 4:30 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Rich:
>
> It has been a few years since I flew a 235. But, don't they have oil
> fill necks and dip sticks?
>
> Why did you have to WAIT till you received an oil analysis report to
> find out that you had a broken ring? SEE what happens when you put
> your FEELINGS ahead of common sense. And that is why most GA pilots
> get oil analysis done ... FEELINGS! It gives them a warm and fuzzy.
> So what does a oil fill neck and a dip stick have to do with it?
> Just LQQK at thew COLOR of the oil and that should tell you
> something! If it changes to dark/black in a short time you KNOW
> something is wrong. A broken ring will cause the oil to go dark/black
> in a very short time. But you were willing to wait till you got the
> oil analysis results before you or your partner just LQQK'd at the oil!
>
> Do you have EGT & CHT probes on that plane? If so HIGH CHT will be
> SCREAMING - Something is wrong. OK, No CHT on the plane... Surely you
> have an Oil Temp Gage! That would also be increasing as the blow-by
> increases with a broken ring as as the the temps increase.
>
> Compression Check - Next to useless. As someone just said ... How
> often do you do a compression check; once a year at annual? So just
> as waiting for Annual Time to fix a problem waiting for oil analysis
> results delays a prompt response.
>
> So, once again one is expecting a warm fuzzy feeling - AFTER the fact.
> One is relying on analysis company NOT to make a mistake. Meanwhile
> people think they are doing something good for their engine. They are
> doing NOTHING for their engine, they are ONLY justifying their actions
> with Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
> Also as I stated and explained with facts ... What are you
> really analyzing, oil that has had 71% of the oil replaced in a 50
> hour period.
>
> Think of it this way:
> If you changed your oil at 30 hour intervals you would know and see
> the color of the oil.
> So and quick change in color or smell would be much easily detected.
> And this is something that does not require a huge delay in time
> while operating your engine under adverse conditions.
> AND MAYBE - If the oil was changed sooner you would have not had a
> ring failure. OK! I'm really stretching with that statement.
>
> So don't go patting yourself on the back for having your
> oil analyzed OR for waiting to get a analysis report and making a
> phone call. OR for making the decision to fly back home with a bad
> ring. So as you say: "What more evidence would anyone need to become
> a believer???"
>
> Barry
> PS:
> By the way - Flying back is another entire decision making process
> that could go under the folder of: "I learned from that".
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 5
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The more you talk, the more I want to do oil analysis.
Keep talking.
Bernard
On 21/01/2011 2:30 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Rich:
>
> It has been a few years since I flew a 235. But, don't they have oil
> fill necks and dip sticks?
>
> Why did you have to WAIT till you received an oil analysis report to
> find out that you had a broken ring? SEE what happens when you put
> your FEELINGS ahead of common sense. And that is why most GA pilots
> get oil analysis done ... FEELINGS! It gives them a warm and fuzzy.
> So what does a oil fill neck and a dip stick have to do with it?
> Just LQQK at thew COLOR of the oil and that should tell you
> something! If it changes to dark/black in a short time you KNOW
> something is wrong. A broken ring will cause the oil to go dark/black
> in a very short time. But you were willing to wait till you got the
> oil analysis results before you or your partner just LQQK'd at the oil!
>
> Do you have EGT & CHT probes on that plane? If so HIGH CHT will be
> SCREAMING - Something is wrong. OK, No CHT on the plane... Surely you
> have an Oil Temp Gage! That would also be increasing as the blow-by
> increases with a broken ring as as the the temps increase.
>
> Compression Check - Next to useless. As someone just said ... How
> often do you do a compression check; once a year at annual? So just
> as waiting for Annual Time to fix a problem waiting for oil analysis
> results delays a prompt response.
>
> So, once again one is expecting a warm fuzzy feeling - AFTER the fact.
> One is relying on analysis company NOT to make a mistake. Meanwhile
> people think they are doing something good for their engine. They are
> doing NOTHING for their engine, they are ONLY justifying their actions
> with Monday Morning Quarterbacking.
> Also as I stated and explained with facts ... What are you
> really analyzing, oil that has had 71% of the oil replaced in a 50
> hour period.
>
> Think of it this way:
> If you changed your oil at 30 hour intervals you would know and see
> the color of the oil.
> So and quick change in color or smell would be much easily detected.
> And this is something that does not require a huge delay in time
> while operating your engine under adverse conditions.
> AND MAYBE - If the oil was changed sooner you would have not had a
> ring failure. OK! I'm really stretching with that statement.
>
> So don't go patting yourself on the back for having your
> oil analyzed OR for waiting to get a analysis report and making a
> phone call. OR for making the decision to fly back home with a bad
> ring. So as you say: "What more evidence would anyone need to become
> a believer???"
>
> Barry
> PS:
> By the way - Flying back is another entire decision making process
> that could go under the folder of: "I learned from that".
>
> *
>
>
> *
Message 6
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I'm sorry, but your claim that the oil would be a different color with a
broken ring just shows you have no experience with broken rings. A single
broken ring that stays in its groove will have little impact on the
operation of the engine, the blow by, etc. All that is different is the
cylinder wall is getting scratched and a few tiny shavings collected. Just
my experience dealing with broken rings and other stuff over the last 35
yrs. You simply aren't going to tell anything unless you have severe blow by
contaminating the oil. A broken ring does not cause severe blow by unless
there is other damage.
KM
A&P/IA
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 2:30 PM, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rich:
>
> It has been a few years since I flew a 235. But, don't they have oil fill
> necks and dip sticks?
>
> Why did you have to WAIT till you received an oil analysis report to find
> out that you had a broken ring? SEE what happens when you put your FEELINGS
> ahead of common sense. And that is why most GA pilots get oil analysis done
> ... FEELINGS! It gives them a warm and fuzzy. So what does a oil fill neck
> and a dip stick have to do with it? Just LQQK at thew COLOR of the oil and
> that should tell you something! If it changes to dark/black in a short time
> you KNOW something is wrong. A broken ring will cause the oil to go
> dark/black in a very short time. But you were willing to wait till you got
> the oil analysis results before you or your partner just LQQK'd at the oil!
>
>
Message 7
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*Hello Noel:*
*
*
*The 100 Hour interval with spin on oil filters is not my idea, but I do go
along with it. *
*In my training I had two A&P use this 100 Hour approach ONLY if the
customer agreed.*
*The spin on filters are so much more efficent than the origional oil screen
filters that 50 hours is really not a long time. When considering this
approach you also consider two things:*
*1 - The spin on is much more efficient than the screen.*
*2 - Inspection of the filter material. *
*The inspection consists of looking at the filter material on BOTH sides
with a very bright light and magnification. Yes you will find particles on
the input side, most of those particles will be BLACK in color. They are
carbon and they are HUGE in size. They will not get through the filter. *
*Now look at the revers side of the filter. The filter looks almost new,
other than for some color change due to oil color. *
*The filter is good for filtering down to 4 to 10 microns <-- Manufacture
dependent.*
*So the filter is doing what it should and so much more than a screen. *
*NEXT - Consider that with the procedure I outlined you will be changing the
OIL at 30/33 Hour intervals the oil itself will be so much more cleaner than
at 50 Hours. So contamination is really not the same issue that is
addressed at 50 hours. That is 55% to 60% sooner so why not extend the oil
change by the same amount?*
*So, in reality there are no particles getting past the filter to do any
damage.*
*
*
*I would venture your next statement would be ... But a cleanER filter can't
hurt!*
*I agree 100% - It is all in what one is comfortable with, 50 Hrs Vs 100
Hrs Vs 30 Hr oil change Vs 50 Hr oil change.*
*In my approach the savings co$t of not doing the oil analysis can be
redirected to doing more oil changes. *
*
*
*hey it can't hurt :-)*
*
*
*Barry*
*==============================*
*Short follow up story - FLEET OIL ANALYSIS*
*My neighbor is the Shop Director of a School Bus Company. For years he did
oil analysis on the buses. He continually had to rebuild engines, more than
he felt was normal. Just for S&G's he sent in two samples:*
*1 - Totally BLACK that ONLY had carbon from the exhaust pipe, BRAND NEW OIL
mind you.*
*Report came back as bad rings and babets.*
*2 - Oil from an engine that seized.*
*Report came back as NORMAL WARE.*
*
*
*He STOPPED doing analysis and just changed the oil filter more often.*
*These buses had oil capacities of 12 and 16 Quarts (if I recall). The
filter was the less expensive item to replace.*
*
*
*:-)*
*
*
*Later,*
*Barry*
*
*
*
*
Message 8
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My point: analysis is of value as is opening the filters. Using both
is a good idea.
Noel
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Dudley
Sent: January 21, 2011 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
Just to complete the story of the Cherokee 235 with the broken ring. The
235 had a Lycoming O-540, a six cylinder engine de-rated to 235 hp.
It had been our procedure to send an oil sample for analysis at every
oil change. So, we had a well documented baseline when we got an
abnormal analysis. The analysis company who had done our previous
analyses noted it immediately and notified us by telephone even before
we received the detailed analysis by mail. They told us that the result,
because of higher than normal iron and aluminum, and some other elements
unique to the rings, that it probably was a broken ring.
If there was a drop in compression on one out of six cylinders it was
not noticed in the performance of the engine and it was not normal
practice to do a compression test between annuals without some reason.
This experience was a clear cut justification and stone simple
reinforcement for the minimal inconvenience and trivial expense of
having an oil analysis at each oil change. What more evidence would
anyone need to become a believer???
And, why would anyone argue vehemently against such a simple,
inexpensive monitor of engine health??
Rich
On 1/20/2011 11:34 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
With the damage you describe it would have to show up in an oil
analysis. This is a clear place where charting the results from change
to change would have been helpful.
As for oil analysis being a waste of time and money it sure is, if you
don=99t keep up the schedule and don=99t bother to chart the
results.
Oil analysis will show problems that you won=99t catch in a filter
but what does it hurt to open a filter and have a look at the medium?
If you find anything it could save you lot$ of $$$ before an analysis is
returned.
On oil changes the short of it is more is better but filter changes are
probably more important. Especially if your engine has a pressure by
pass on the filter.
Noel
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Vogt
Sent: January 20, 2011 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
Quote " Flash forward to 1999. Sure enough, he had 1999 hours on his
plane . . . give or take a few. At 1999 hrs, he opted for a LyCon
overhaul. When the owner brought me his plane, he told me, "This should
be an easy overhaul. I don't want anything fancy like port and polish
or anything else. Just the basic overhaul. I've set aside about
$18,000 to cover the costs."
Engine comes off and goes to Lycon. I told Ken about the oil analysis
and ADC oil filter and that the owner expects this to be a simple
overhaul.
The next time I talked to Ken, he told me the engine would need to be
aligned bored (the case had been chafing), the crank needed to be
reground (it was out of tolerance, the rod bearings were bad and had
chewed up the crank), it would need a new cam and lifters (this plane
was flown over 300 hours a year), and it would need new cylinders (the
cylinders had too many cracks in them to repair.) "
--------------
Bottom line. The oil analysis for the entire time he owned the plane
did not tell him his engine was trashed.
Oil analysis is a waste of time and money.
As for fleet operators, they too could save a lot of money just by
inspecting the oil filter.
_____
From: Doug Dodson <mailto:douglas.dodson@pobox.com>
<douglas.dodson@pobox.com>
Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:57:07 AM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
I thought it went without saying, but of course oil analysis is about
trend monitoring. A single report has little value. The utility comes
by having a series of reports at regular intervals. The reports are
normalized to account for the makeup oil added between samples. Have a
sample analyzed at each oil change. The trend analysis will show an
issue before the oil filter does.
- Doug
_____
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Noel
Loveys
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM
Subject: RE: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
I agree with you Barry except about running the filter for 100 hr. If
there is anything in the filter running it another fifty or in this case
67 hr won=99t do anything good for the engine. Change it at the
33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can=99t get fresh oil I would
recommend changing the filter anyway.
Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet operators... give
the bean counters something to do. As you said without a base line to
work form you won=99t be able to notice trends in the precipitate.
Anyone who is paying for oil analysis should keep a chart of the
results and keep both the chart and the reports in the engine log. That
way as they update the chart after each report they will have to see if
trends continue or if one or more constituents are increasing.
Noel
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!
OK, do I have your attention?
Here is why...
Lets say you are running one of the two major manufacture engines and
you have a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.
This is slightly above average for Lycoming & Continental, usually 1 Qt
in 8 to 9 hours is more common.
Next is the quantity of oil your engine holds.
Again for the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip stick.
BUT! If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the first
hour... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be using.
So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.
Now, what kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have a Spin On
or ADC filter.
That give you 50 Hours of flight time before you should change your oil.
If you have the standard screen you will be doing an oil change in 25
hours.
But, we will work with 50 hours.
You can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really scare you.
OK, here we go....
50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 Qts will be
added between oil changes.
If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt then...
50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts
What does that mean?
Well, When you take your oil sample to ship out for oil analysis you
have already replace ... Wait for it ...
Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 71.4% of the oil
capacity in your engine.
Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% of the oil
capacity in your engine.
SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil after
5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.
Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out the same
amount.
For me that is not good data.
Oh, how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is $12 to $15
plus shipping.
Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.
Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x $4.50/Qt =
$31.50)
NOW! You want to do something good for your engine and spend the same
amount of money?
Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours ... That is 1/3 sooner.
What about the Oil Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour intervals.
You will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND your filter.
For those of you that are already changing your filter at 100 Hrs ...
Stretch it to 130 Hrs.
One last point. After reading a few oil analysis reports. What one
thing do they all have in common?
There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like this: More
Data is Required for Trend Analysis.
When it comes to this, I have stories for you!
Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine and YOUR
piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.
Barry
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com> wrote:
Doug,
Nobody is arguing with you. An oil analysis is a great idea. We've all
used the same reasoning you did.
I was offering no technique at all - so there was no anecdotal evidence
on which to base said technique. And I'm not sure what question the
word cautionary begs.
Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.
Stan Sutterfield
Do not archive
In a message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
engines-list@matronics.com writes:
That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The term
"cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else does,
same as
the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering is even better.
Both
require data (or evidence) to in order to follow accepted practice.
Price out for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself with the
credentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an overhaul, then
price
out an accident that almost totals the aircraft (assuming you have
insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I have not even
asked
you to include an analysis of the cost for injury or death.
Oil analysis can't prevent every bad thing, but knowledge is still
power,
and the price of this knowledge is less than that of 3 gallons of fuel.
The
science (or engineering) is well founded.
- Doug
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Message 9
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Sounds like a ring that was not gapped correctly and it broke when it expan
ded with the heat of combustion and the ring end met with enough force to b
uckle (cylinder scoring) and then break.=0A=0A=0A=0AFrom: Gary Vogt <teamgr
umman@yahoo.com>=0ATo: engines-list@matronics.com=0ACc: =0ASent: Thursday,
January 20, 2011 9:44 PM=0ASubject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters=0A=0A
=0Awhat kind of engine?=0A=0APulling the engine through will reveal a weak
cylinder.=0A=0AFlying a plane with which you are familiar will reveal a wea
k engine.=0A=0A=0AFrom: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>=0ATo: engi
nes-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:54:29 AM=0ASubject:
Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters=0A=0ATo answer your questions:=0A1. Poss
ibly, a compression test would pick up a broken ring. But the next compress
ion test would be done at the next annual which would have been done months
later with the damage continuing.=0A2. We don't know how what caused the r
ing to break. The engine had approximately 700 hours since new.=0A3. There
were no signs of detonation and the problem did not recur.=0A4. The oil ana
lysis picked up the broken ring because of the scoring of the cylinder wall
and the increased of the elements from the scored cylinder wall and scored
piston. And yes, the cylinder wall was scored as well as the piston. The d
amage was enough to replace both the piston and cylinder. Though it was abo
ut 40 years ago, I still have the piston with its gouges.=0A4. That experie
nce convinced us that the investments of, whatever, $10-$15 and a few minut
es of our time were worthwhile.=0A=0ARegards,=0ARich=0A=0A=0A=0AOn 1/20/201
1 2:09 PM, Gary Vogt wrote: =0AIf the engine had a broken ring, a compressi
on test would have picked it up.=0A>=0A>=0A>Besides, how would a ring break
? =C2-Detonation? =C2-If that's the case, there is more damage than jus
t the ring.=0A>=0A>=0A>From: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>=0A>To
: engines-list@matronics.com=0A>Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 7:30:24 AM=0A>S
ubject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters=0A>=0A>I've been following the th
read with interest and thought that I'd add my "anecdotal" tidbit.=0A>=0A>S
ome years ago with my jointly owned Cherokee 235 we routinely had oil analy
sis done at each oil change. Soon after an oil change, my partner was away
with the plane when I received a phone call from the analysis company that
the results were grossly abnormal. Their conclusion from the predominant ch
anges in a couple of elements was that there was a broken ring. I managed t
o contact my partner with those results. He had the cylinders bore scoped a
nd found the scored cylinder with the broken ring. The consensus was that i
t was safe to return home with the broken ring. Upon return to home base, t
he cylinder and piston were replaced. Without the analysis and until that c
ylinder showed major loss of compression, we would not have known of the br
oken ring. The implications of continuing to run the engine with broken rin
g seem undesirable.=0A>=0A>Rich Dudley=0A>=0A>On 1/20/2011 9:57 AM, Doug Do
dson wrote:=0A>> =0A>=0A>> I thought it went without saying, but of course
oil analysis=0A>is about=0A>=0A>> trend monitoring. A single report has lit
tle value. The=0A>utility=0A>=0A>> comes by having a series of reports at r
egular intervals. The=0A>=0A>> reports are normalized to account for the ma
keup oil added=0A>between=0A>=0A>> samples. Have a sample analyzed at each
oil change. The trend=0A>=0A>> analysis will show an issue before the oil f
ilter does.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> - Do
ug=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> -------------
------------=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> *From:*owner-engines-list-server@matronics.
com=0A>=0A>> [mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf=0A
>Of *Noel=0A>=0A>> Loveys *Sent:* Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:26 AM *To:*
=0A>=0A>> engines-list@matronics.com *Subject:* RE: Engines-List: Re:=0A>Oi
l=0A>=0A>> Filters=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> I agree with you
Barry except about running the filter for=0A>100 hr.=0A>=0A>> If there is a
nything in the filter running it another fifty=0A>or in=0A>=0A>> this case
67 hr won=99t do anything good for the engine. Change=0A>it at=0A>=0A
>> the 33 hr with the oil. In fact if you can=99t get fresh oil I=0A>
would=0A>=0A>> recommend changing the filter anyway.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A
>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Oil analysis is something I would recommend for fleet=0A>o
perators...=0A>=0A>> give the bean counters something to do. As you said wi
thout a=0A>base=0A>=0A>> line to work form you won=99t be able to not
ice trends in the=0A>=0A>> precipitate. Anyone who is paying for oil analys
is should=0A>keep a=0A>=0A>> chart of the results and keep both the chart a
nd the reports=0A>in the=0A>=0A>> engine log. That way as they update the c
hart after each=0A>report they=0A>=0A>> will have to see if trends continue
or if one or more=0A>constituents=0A>=0A>> are increasing.=0A>=0A>> =0A>
=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Noel=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> *From
:*owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com=0A>=0A>> [mailto:owner-engines-li
st-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf=0A>Of=0A>=0A>> *FLYaDIVE *Sent:* Januar
y 20, 2011 1:39 AM *To:*=0A>=0A>> engines-list@matronics.com *Subject:* Re:
Engines-List: Re:=0A>Oil=0A>=0A>> Filters=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A
>=0A>> AN OIL ANALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>>
=0A>=0A>> OK, do I have your attention?=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>
=0A>> Here is why...=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Lets say you ar
e running one of the two major manufacture=0A>engines and=0A>=0A>> you have
a oil consumption of 1 quart in 10 hours.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> This is sligh
tly above average for Lycoming &=0A>Continental, usually 1=0A>=0A>> Qt in 8
to 9 hours is more common.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Next is
the quantity of oil your engine holds.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Again for the big
two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip=0A>stick.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> BUT!
If you put in 8 Qts you are blowing out one Qt in the=0A>first=0A>=0A>> ho
ur... So, 7 Qts is more in line with what you should be=0A>using.=0A>=0A>>
=0A>=0A>> So lets use 7 Qts for this exercise.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Now, what
kind of oil filter are you using? Lets say you have=0A>a Spin=0A>=0A>> On
or ADC filter.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> That give you 50 Hours of flight time bef
ore you should=0A>change your=0A>=0A>> oil.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> If you have
the standard screen you will be doing an oil=0A>change in 25=0A>=0A>> hours
.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> But, we will work with 50 hours.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Yo
u can do the same math with 25 hours but that will really=0A>scare=0A>=0A>>
you.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> OK, here we go....=0A>=0A>>
=0A>=0A>> 50 hours divided by 10 hours per qt = 5 Qts - That means 5=0A>Q
ts will=0A>=0A>> be added between oil changes.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> If yo wan
t to use 8 hrs per Qt then...=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> 50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts=0A>=0A
>> =0A>=0A>> What does that mean?=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Well, When you take yo
ur oil sample to ship out for oil=0A>analysis you=0A>=0A>> have already rep
lace ... Wait for it ...=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil
capacity. That is 71.4% of the=0A>oil=0A>=0A>> capacity in your engine.=0A>
=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil capacity. That is 89.4% o
f=0A>the oil=0A>=0A>> capacity in your engine.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>>
=0A>=0A>> SOOoooo What are you really checking? Only the remaining oil=0A>
after=0A>=0A>> 5/7ths or 6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped out.=0A>=0A>
> =0A>=0A>> Now some may say that is OK as long as you always swap out=0A>t
he same=0A>=0A>> amount.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> For me that is not good data.
=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Oh, how much does it cost for oil a
nalysis, I think it is $12=0A>to $15=0A>=0A>> plus shipping.=0A>=0A>> =0A>
=0A>> Let's say $15... That is about 1/3 the cost of a case of oil.=0A>=0A>
> =0A>=0A>> Or, 47.6% of the cost of a single oil change. (7 Qts x=0A>$4.50
/Qt ==0A>=0A>> $31.50)=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> NOW! You wa
nt to do something good for your engine and spend=0A>the=0A>=0A>> same amou
nt of money?=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Ho
urs ... That is=0A>1/3=0A>=0A>> sooner.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> What about the O
il Filter? Change it ONLY at 100 Hour=0A>intervals.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> You
will now have cleaner oil going through your engine AND=0A>your=0A>=0A>> fi
lter.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> For those of you that are already changing your fi
lter at 100=0A>Hrs ...=0A>=0A>> Stretch it to 130 Hrs.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>>
=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> One last point. After reading a few oil analysis report
s.=0A>What one=0A>=0A>> thing do they all have in common?=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>
> There is a statement at the bottom that reads something like=0A>this:=0A>
=0A>> More Data is Required for Trend Analysis.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> When it
comes to this, I have stories for you!=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A
>> Bottom line: Oil changed regularly does more for an engine=0A>and YOUR
=0A>=0A>> piece of mind than any after the fact piece of paper.=0A>=0A>>
=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Barry=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>>
=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> On Wed, Jan 19,
2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com=0A>=0A>> <mailto:Speedy11@aol.com>> wro
te:=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Doug,=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Nobody is arguing with you.
An oil analysis is a great idea.=0A>We've=0A>=0A>> all used the same reaso
ning you did.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> I was offering no technique at all - so th
ere was no=0A>anecdotal=0A>=0A>> evidence on which to base said technique.
And I'm not sure=0A>what=0A>=0A>> question the word cautionary begs.=0A>=0A
>> =0A>=0A>> Getting an oil analysis is a great technique. Keep it up.=0A>
=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Stan Sutterfield=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Do not archive=0A>=0A>>
=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> In a message dated 1/19/
2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern Standard=0A>Time,=0A>=0A>> engines-list@matronics
.com=0A><mailto:engines-list@matronics.com>=0A>=0A>> writes:=0A>=0A>> =0A>
=0A>> That technique is based on anecdotal evidence at best. The=0A>term
=0A>=0A>> "cautionary" begs the question. You can do what everyone else=0A>
does,=0A>=0A>> same as the lemming. Good science is nice, good engineering
=0A>is even=0A>=0A>> better. Both require data (or evidence) to in order to
follow=0A>=0A>> accepted practice.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Price out
for yourself an oil analysis. Familiarize yourself=0A>with=0A>=0A>> the cre
dentials and writings of Mike Busch. Price out an=0A>overhaul,=0A>=0A>> the
n price out an accident that almost totals the aircraft=0A>(assuming=0A>=0A
>> you have insurance). Balance the costs versus the benefits. I=0A>have=0A
>=0A>> not even asked you to include an analysis of the cost for=0A>injury
or=0A>=0A>> death.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> Oil analysis can't prevent
every bad thing, but knowledge is=0A>still=0A>=0A>> power, and the price of
this knowledge is less than that of 3=0A>gallons=0A>=0A>> of fuel. The sci
ence (or engineering) is well founded.=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> - Doug
=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> * * * * =0A>=0A>>=0A>*target="_blank">http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Engines-List*=0A>=0A>=0A>> *tp://forums.matronics.com*
=0A>=0A>> *_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * *=0A>=0A>> =0A>
=0A>> =0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>> * * * * * * *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?E
ngines-List*=0A>* * =0A>=0A>> *http://forums.matronics.com* * * =0A>=0A>> *
http://www.matronics.com/contribution* * * * * *=0A>=0A>> =0A>=0A>>=0A>href
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Message 10
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True Tedd...
Only problem is you go from oil change to oil change with this warm & fuzzy
with oil analysis. My warm & fuzzy is because I took a pro-active approach
and did something... An Oil Change.
A oil analysis is REACTIVE.
I would not say apples & oranges... More in the line of apples and
applesauce.
It is all about WHEN you get the information.
Barry
>
>
Message 11
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Kelly:
I do not have as many years experience as you, but on three engines that I
worked on, two O-320's and one O-360 that had only a single crack in the #1
ring, all showed within quick time changes in oil color.
I did not say 'severe' and I would not have classified it as such.
It was the quick change in oil color that made me immediately do a
compression check. There was NO reason to wait for an oil change and a oil
analysis.
If your synopsis is correct then why did Rich say scoring on the cylinder
walls and gouges in the piston. This would surely say the
condition existed for a while and that there should have been changes to the
oil color and maybe to the performance?
And here is why I say oil analysis gives a false sense of well being - NO
Warm & Fuzzy. Just a wait and see.
Barry
Message 12
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For what the analysis costs $15-20 I think was listed here, it is precious
little. The same goes for replacing the filter with each change.
I used to do regular scheduled inspections of bush planes (floats) and other
GA aircraft. Some had the spin on filters and others had the screens. We
took samples of oil washed form the screens for inspection. We also opened
each filter and on at least one occasion found babbit in the oil... a
bearing was fried. Because all those airplanes were in commercial operation
oil samples were always sent to a lab for analysis.
One of the things I found interesting was several of the owners would balk
at putting a $25. Part on their airplane, the source of their income and
their major investment. Yet without blinking an eye would put out a
thousand dollars for an add on for their pickup truck... Go figure....
Helicopter owners are another quintal of fish. They have no problem in
replacing a $11,000 turbine power wheel if there is the slightest question
or low power from the engine.
Noel
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 21, 2011 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
Hello Noel:
The 100 Hour interval with spin on oil filters is not my idea, but I do go
along with it.
In my training I had two A&P use this 100 Hour approach ONLY if the customer
agreed.
The spin on filters are so much more efficent than the origional oil screen
filters that 50 hours is really not a long time. When considering this
approach you also consider two things:
1 - The spin on is much more efficient than the screen.
2 - Inspection of the filter material.
The inspection consists of looking at the filter material on BOTH sides with
a very bright light and magnification. Yes you will find particles on the
input side, most of those particles will be BLACK in color. They are carbon
and they are HUGE in size. They will not get through the filter.
Now look at the revers side of the filter. The filter looks almost new,
other than for some color change due to oil color.
The filter is good for filtering down to 4 to 10 microns <-- Manufacture
dependent.
So the filter is doing what it should and so much more than a screen.
NEXT - Consider that with the procedure I outlined you will be changing the
OIL at 30/33 Hour intervals the oil itself will be so much more cleaner than
at 50 Hours. So contamination is really not the same issue that is
addressed at 50 hours. That is 55% to 60% sooner so why not extend the oil
change by the same amount?
So, in reality there are no particles getting past the filter to do any
damage.
I would venture your next statement would be ... But a cleanER filter can't
hurt!
I agree 100% - It is all in what one is comfortable with, 50 Hrs Vs 100 Hrs
Vs 30 Hr oil change Vs 50 Hr oil change.
In my approach the savings co$t of not doing the oil analysis can be
redirected to doing more oil changes.
hey it can't hurt :-)
Barry
=============================
Short follow up story - FLEET OIL ANALYSIS
My neighbor is the Shop Director of a School Bus Company. For years he did
oil analysis on the buses. He continually had to rebuild engines, more than
he felt was normal. Just for S&G's he sent in two samples:
1 - Totally BLACK that ONLY had carbon from the exhaust pipe, BRAND NEW OIL
mind you.
Report came back as bad rings and babets.
2 - Oil from an engine that seized.
Report came back as NORMAL WARE.
He STOPPED doing analysis and just changed the oil filter more often.
These buses had oil capacities of 12 and 16 Quarts (if I recall). The
filter was the less expensive item to replace.
:-)
Later,
Barry
Message 13
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I would suggest that shortening the term between oil changes and analysis
are both Pro-active, obviously in different ways
Noel
From: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE
Sent: January 21, 2011 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters
True Tedd...
Only problem is you go from oil change to oil change with this warm & fuzzy
with oil analysis. My warm & fuzzy is because I took a pro-active approach
and did something... An Oil Change.
A oil analysis is REACTIVE.
I would not say apples & oranges... More in the line of apples and
applesauce.
It is all about WHEN you get the information.
Barry
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