Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:59 AM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Tedd McHenry)
2. 05:53 PM - =?utf-8?B?UmU6IEVuZ2luZXMtTGlzdDogUmU6IEVuZ2luZXMtTGlzdDogUmU6IE9pbCBG?= =?utf-8?B?aWx0ZXtycsOecw==? (Gary Vogt)
3. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: Oil Filters (Gary Vogt)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
On 21-Jan-11, at 5:05PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Only problem is you go from oil change to oil change with this warm
> & fuzzy with oil analysis. My warm & fuzzy is because I took a pro-
> active approach and did something... An Oil Change.
I'm glad that an oil change gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling. But
an oil analysis gives you information. Information versus warm fuzzy
feeling -- that's apples and oranges.
But, if you don't want to know what's going on inside your engine
that's your prerogative, of course.
tedd
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | =?utf-8?B?UmU6IEVuZ2luZXMtTGlzdDogUmU6IEVuZ2luZXMtTGlzdDogUmU6IE9pbCBG?= |
=?utf-8?B?aWx0ZXtycsOecw==?
Did you, by any chance, see the article in Aviation Consumer where they sen
t a =0Ahalf dozen or so samples to 5 different companies for analysis? Onl
y one =0Acompany picked up on the fact that one sample was from a car. The
y all had =0Adifferent results.=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________
=0AFrom: "pautenried@gmail.com" <pautenried@gmail.com>=0ATo: engines-list@m
atronics.com=0ASent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:55:22 PM=0ASubject: Engines-L
ist: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filte{rr=C3=9Es=0A=0AErePHHhhHhHhhHyr=C3=82
=C2=AEthhtg tytr=0ASent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry=0A_____________
___________________=0A=0AFrom: Richard Dudley <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>
=0ASender: owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com =0ADate: Fri, 21 Jan 20
11 09:49:00 -0500=0ATo: <engines-list@matronics.com>=0AReplyTo: engines-li
st@matronics.com=0ASubject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters=0AJust to
complete the story of the Cherokee 235 with the broken ring.
=0AThe 235 had a Lycoming O-540, a six cylinder engine de-rated
to 235 =0Ahp. =0A=0AIt had been our procedure to send an oil sample
for analysis at every oil =0Achange. So, we had a well documented
baseline when we got an abnormal =0Aanalysis. The analysis company
who had done our previous analyses noted =0Ait immediately and noti
fied us by telephone even before we received the =0Adetailed analys
is by mail. They told us that the result, because of =0Ahigher than
normal iron and aluminum, and some other elements unique to =0Athe
rings, that it probably was a broken ring. =0A=0AIf there was a drop in co
mpression on one out of six cylinders it was =0Anot noticed in the
performance of the engine and it was not normal =0Apractice to do a
compression test between annuals without some reason. =0A=0AThis e
xperience was a clear cut justification=C3=82 and=C3=82 stone simple
=0Areinforcement for the minimal inconvenience and trivial expense
of =0Ahaving an oil analysis at each oil change. What more evidence
would =0Aanyone need to become a believer???=0A=0AAnd, why would anyon
e argue vehemently against such a simple, =0Ainexpensive monitor of
engine health??=0A=0ARich=0A=0AOn 1/20/2011 11:34 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:
=0A =0A>With the damage you describe it would have to show up i
n an oil =0A>analysis.=C3=82 This is a clear place where chart
ing the results from =0A>change to change would have been helpf
ul.=0A>=C3=82 =0AAs for oil analysis being a waste of time and
money it sure is, if =0Ayou don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t keep u
p the schedule and don=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t bother to chart the
=0Aresults.=0A>=C3=82 =0A>Oil analysis will show problems
that you won=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t catch in a filter =0A>but what
does it hurt to open a filter and have a look at the =0A>
medium?=C3=82 If you find anything it could save you lot$ of $$$
before =0A>an analysis is returned.=0A>=C3=82 =0A>On oil cha
nges the short of it is more is better but filter changes =0A>a
re probably more important.=C3=82 Especially if your engine has
a =0A>pressure by pass on the filter.=0A>=C3=82 =0A>Noel=0A>=C3=82 =0A>
=C3=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A>From:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com =0A>[mai
lto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
=0A>Gary Vogt=0A>Sent: January 20, 2011 3:37 PM=0A>To: engines-list@matron
ics.com=0A>Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters=0A>=C3=82 =0A>Quote
=C3=82 " =C3=82 Flash forward to 1999. =C3=82 Sure enough
, he had 1999 =0A>hours on his plane . . . =C3=82 give or
take a few. =C3=82 At 1999 hrs, =0A>he opted for a LyCon
overhaul. =C3=82 When the owner brought me his =0A>plane
, he told me, "This should be an easy overhaul. =C3=82 I
don't =0A>want anything fancy like port and polish or any
thing else. =0A>=C3=82 Just the basic overhaul. =C3=82 I'
ve set aside about $18,000 to =0A>cover the costs."=0A>=C3=82 =0A>Engine
comes off and goes to Lycon. =C3=82 I told Ken about the oi
l =0A>analysis and ADC oil filter and that the owner expe
cts this to =0A>be a simple overhaul.=0A>=C3=82 =0A>The n
ext time I talked to Ken, he told me the engine would =0A
>need to be aligned bored (the case had been chafing), th
e =0A>crank needed to be reground (it was out of toleranc
e, the rod =0A>bearings were bad and had chewed up the
crank), it would need =0A>a new cam and lifters (this
plane was flown over 300 hours a =0A>year), and it would
need new cylinders (the cylinders had too =0A>many cracks
in them to repair.) "=0A>=C3=82 =0A>--------------=0A>Bottom
line. =C3=82 The oil analysis for the entire time he owned
the =0A>plane did not tell him his engine was trashed. =C3
=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A>Oil analysis is a waste of time and mone
y.=0A>=C3=82 =0A>As for fleet operators, they too could sav
e a lot of money just =0A>by inspecting the oil filter.=0A>
=C3=82 =0A>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>From:Doug
Dodson <douglas.dodson@pobox.com>=0A>To: engines-list@matronics.com
=0A>Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:57:07 AM=0A>Subject: RE: Engines-List: Re
: Oil Filters=0A>I thought it went without saying, but of
course oil analysis =0A>is about trend monitoring.=C3=82 A
single report has little =0A>value.=C3=82 The utility comes
by having a series of reports at =0A>regular intervals.=C3=82
The reports are normalized to account =0A>for the mak
eup oil added between samples.=C3=82 Have a sample =0A
>analyzed at each oil change.=C3=82 The trend analysis
will show =0A>an issue before the oil filter does.=0A>
=C3=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A>- Doug=0A>=C3=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A
>=0A________________________________=0A=0A>From:owner-engines-list-server@m
atronics.com =0A>[mailto:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On
=0A>Behalf Of Noel Loveys=0A>Sent: Thursday, January 20,
2011 6:26 AM=0A>To: engines-list@matronics.com=0A>Subject: RE: Engines-List
: Re: Oil Filters=0A>=C3=82 =0A>I agree with you Barry
except about running the filter =0A>for 100 hr.=C3=82
If there is anything in the filter running it =0A>anoth
er fifty or in this case 67 hr won=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t
do anything good =0A>for the engine.=C3=82 Change it at the
33 hr with the oil.=C3=82 In =0A>fact if you can=C3=A2=82=AC
=84=A2t get fresh oil I would recommend changing =0A
>the filter anyway.=0A>=C3=82 =0A>Oil analysis is somet
hing I would recommend for fleet =0A>operators...=C3=82
give the bean counters something to do.=C3=82 As =0A
>you said without a base line to work form you won=C3
=A2=82=AC=84=A2t be =0A>able to notice trends in the
precipitate.=C3=82 Anyone who is =0A>paying for oil analysis
=C3=82 should keep a chart of the results =0A>and keep both
the chart and the reports in the engine log.=C3=82 =0A>Tha
t way as they update the chart after each report they
=0A>will have to see if trends continue or if one or
more =0A>constituents are increasing.=0A>=C3=82 =0A>Noel
=0A>=C3=82 =0A>From:owner-engines-list-server@matronics.com =0A>[mailto:own
er-engines-list-server@matronics.com] On =0A>Behalf
Of FLYaDIVE=0A>Sent: January 20, 2011 1:39 AM=0A>To: engines-list@matronic
s.com=0A>Subject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters=0A>=C3=82 =0A>AN OIL AN
ALYSIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY!=0A>=C3=82 =0A>OK, do I have y
our attention? =C3=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A>Here is why...=0A>=C3=82 =0A>Lets say
you are=C3=82 running=C3=82 one of the two major manufa
cture =0A>engines and you have a oil consumption of 1 q
uart in 10 =0A>hours.=0A>This is slightly above average
for Lycoming =0A>&=C3=82 Continental,=C3=82 usually=C3=82 1 Qt in 8 to
9 hours is more =0A>common.=0A>=C3=82 =0A>Next is the=C3
=82 quantity=C3=82 of oil your engine holds.=0A>Again f
or the big two 8 Qts is what is stamped on your dip =0A
>stick.=0A>BUT! =C3=82 If you put in 8 Qts you are blow
ing out one Qt in the =0A>first hour... So, 7 Qts is mo
re in line with what you should =0A>be using.=0A>So lets use 7 Qts for
this=C3=82 exercise.=0A>Now, what kind of oil filter are
you using? =C3=82 Lets say you =0A>have a Spin On or ADC
filter.=0A>That give you 50 Hours of flight
time before you should =0A>change your oil.=0A>If you have the sta
ndard screen you will be doing an oil =0A>change in 25
hours.=0A>But, we will work with 50 hours.=0A>You can do the same math with
25 hours but that will really =0A>scare you.=0A>=C3=82
=0A>OK, here we go....=0A>50 hours divided by 10 hours per
qt = 5 Qts - That means 5 =0A>Qts will be added between
oil changes.=0A>If yo want to use 8 hrs per Qt
then...=0A>50 / 8 = 6.26 Qts=C3=82 =0A>What does that mean?=0A>Well, When
you take your oil sample to ship out for oil =0A>analy
sis you have=C3=82 already=C3=82 replace ... Wait for i
t ...=0A>Case #1 --- 5/7ths of your oil capacity. =C3
=82 That is 71.4% of =0A>the oil=C3=82 capacity=C3=82 in your
engine.=0A>Case #2 --- 6.26/7ths of your oil cap
acity. =C3=82 That is 89.4% =0A>of the oil=C3=82 capacity=C3=82 in your
engine.=0A>=C3=82 =0A>SOOoooo What are you really
checking? =C3=82 Only the remaining =0A>oil after 5/7ths or
6.26/7ths of the oil has been swapped =0A>out.=0A>Now some
may say that is OK as long as you always swap out =0A>
the same amount. =C3=82 =0A>For me that is not good data.=0A>=C3=82 =0A>Oh,
how much does it cost for oil analysis, I think it is
=0A>$12 to $15 plus shipping.=0A>Let's say $15... That is about
1/3 the cost of a case of =0A>oil.=0A>Or, 47.6% of the cost of a s
ingle oil change. =C3=82 (7 Qts x =0A>$4.50/Qt = $31.
50)=0A>=C3=82 =0A>NOW! =C3=82 You want to do something
good for your engine and =0A>spend the same amount of m
oney?=0A>Take that $15 and do an oil change at 33 Hours
... That is =0A>1/3 sooner.=0A>What about the Oil Filter?
=C3=82 Change it ONLY at 100 Hour =0A>intervals.=0A>You will now have c
leaner oil going through your engine AND =0A>your filte
r.=0A>For those of you that are already changing your
=C3=82 filter=C3=82 at =0A>100 Hrs ...=C3=82 Stretch=C3=82 it to
130 Hrs.=0A>=C3=82 =0A>One last point. =C3=82 After reading a
few oil analysis reports. =0A>=C3=82 What one thing do the
y all have in common?=0A>There is a statement at the
bottom that reads something like =0A>this: =C3=82 More Da
ta is Required for Trend Analysis.=0A>When it comes to
this, I have stories for you! =C3=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A>Bot
tom line: =C3=82 Oil changed=C3=82 regularly=C3=82 does
more for an =0A>engine and YOUR piece of mind than any
=C3=82 after=C3=82 the fact =0A>piece of paper.=0A>=C3
=82 =0A>Barry=0A>=C3=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A>On Wed, Jan 19
, 2011 at 8:40 PM, <Speedy11@aol.com>
=0A>wrote:=0A>Doug,=0A>Nobody is arguing with you.=C3=82
An oil analysis is a =0A>great idea.=C3=82 We've all
used the same reasoning you =0A>did.=0A>I was offe
ring no technique at all - so there was no =0A>
anecdotal evidence on which to base said =0A>te
chnique.=C3=82 And I'm not sure what question
the word =0A>cautionary begs.=0A>Getting an oil
analysis is a great technique.=C3=82 Keep =0A
>it up.=0A>Stan Sutterfield=0A>Do not archive=0A>=C3=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A>In a
message dated 1/19/2011 3:06:31 A.M. Eastern
=0A>Standard Time, engines-list@matronics.co
m writes:=0A>That technique is based on anecd
otal evidence at =0A>best.=C3=82 The term=0A>>"cautionary" begs the questi
on.=C3=82 You can do what =0A>>everyone else
does, same as=0A>>the lemming.=C3=82 Good science is nice, good
=0A>>engineering is even better.=C3=82 Both=0A>>requi
re data (or evidence) to in order to follow
=0A>>accepted practice.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Price out for yourself an oil analysi
s.=C3=82 =0A>>Familiarize yourself with the
=0A>>credentials and writings of Mike Busch.=C3=82
Price =0A>>out an overhaul, then price=0A>>out an accident that almo
st totals the aircraft =0A>>(assuming you hav
e=0A>>insurance).=C3=82 Balance the costs versus the
=0A>>benefits.=C3=82 I have not even asked=0A>>you to include an
analysis of the cost for injury =0A>>or death
.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>Oil analysis can't prevent every bad
thing, but =0A>>knowledge is still power,=0A>>and the price of this
knowledge is less than that =0A>>of 3 gallon
s of fuel.=C3=82 The=0A>>science (or engineering) is well founded.=0A>>=0A
>>=0A>>- Doug=0A> =C3=82 =0A> =C3=82 =0A>target="_blank">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Engines-List=0A>tp://forums.matronics.com=0A>_blank">htt
p://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A> =C3=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A> =C3=82 =0A>
=C3=82 =0A> =C3=82 =0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List=0A>
=C3=82 =0A>http://forums.matronics.com=0A>=C3=82 =0A>http://www.matronics.c
om/contribution=0A>=C3=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A> =C3=82 =0A> =C3=82 =0A>href="ht
tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List%22%3ehttp://www.matronics.com
/Navigator?Engines-Listhref=%22http://forums.matronics.com%22%3ehttp://fo
rums.matronics.com=0A>=0A>href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution%22%
3ehttp:/www.matronics.com/c=0A>http://www.matro=========
============0A> =C3=82 =0A>=C3=82 =0A> =C3=82 =0A>
=C3=82 =0A>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Engines-List=0A>http://forums
.matronics.com=0A>http://www.matronics.com/contribution=0A> =C3=82 =0A
=============== =0A=0A=C2=C2=B7=BA~
=B0=C3=AD=C2=B2,=C3=9Eg(=93=C5-=C3=93M4=C3=93G=C3=9Aq=C3=BC
=C2=A2=C3=C3=A2z=C2=B9=C3=9E=C3=81=C3=8A.=C2=AE'=C2=AB8^x"=EF=BD=C3
=AB=C5-=C3=8BD=84=A2=C2=A8=C2=A5=C5-=C3=AE=EF=BD,z=C3=98^1=C2=ABk
=C2=A2x=C5=93=C2=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B4W=C5=A1=C2=B6=C3=C3=9E=C2=B0=C3'
=C2=AF=C5-=C2=AD=C2=A2=C2=BBhn=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3=AD=C3=A9=C5=A1=C5
=B8"=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9B=C2=AD=C5-X=C2=AD=B0=C3=AB,=C2=B9=C3=88Z=C2
=B0=C2=B8=C2=AC=C2=B5I=C3J=C3=C3=ACr=C2=B8=C2=A9=C2=B6*'=0A=0A=0A=0A
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
=9CThe primary task of the philosophy of religion is to discover thos
e questions =0Ato which religion is the answer=9D=0A=0A ~ Rabbi Abrah
am Hashel=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Richard Dudle
y <rhdudley1@bellsouth.net>=0ATo: engines-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Fri, J
anuary 21, 2011 2:36:22 PM=0ASubject: Re: Engines-List: Re: Oil Filters=0A
=0AWhen confronted with facts or observations that disagree with one's
religion =0Aor politics, speculate about missed observations or mistake
s and by all =0Ameans, attack.=0A=0AEnd of wasted time and futile communica
tion.=0A=0ARegards,=0A=0ARich=0A==============
=========================0A
On 1/21/2011 4:30 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: =0ARich: =0A>=0A>=0A>It has been a fe
w years since I flew a 235. But, don't they have oil =0A>fill ne
cks and dip sticks?=0A>=0A>=0A>Why did you have to WAIT till you received
an oil analysis report to =0A>find out that you had a broken ring?
SEE what happens when you put =0A>your FEELINGS ahead of common
sense. And that is why most GA pilots =0A>get oil analysis done
... FEELINGS! It gives them a warm and fuzzy. =0A> So what does
a oil fill neck and a dip stick have to do with it? =0A> Just LQ
QK at thew COLOR of the oil and that should tell you =0A>somethin
g! If it changes to dark/black in a short time you KNOW
=0A>something is wrong. A broken ring will cause the oil to go
dark/black =0A>in a very short time. But you were willing to wait
till you got the =0A>oil analysis results before you or your p
artner just LQQK'd at the =0A>oil!=0A>=0A>=0A>Do you have EGT & CHT probes
on that plane? If so HIGH CHT will be =0A>SCREAMING - Something i
s wrong. OK, No CHT on the plane... Surely you =0A>have an Oil T
emp Gage! That would also be increasing as the blow-by =0A>incre
ases with a broken ring as as the the temps increase.=0A>=0A>=0A>
Compression Check - Next to useless. As someone just said ... Ho
w =0A>often do you do a compression check; once a year at annual?
So just =0A>as waiting for Annual Time to fix a problem waiting
for oil analysis =0A>results delays a prompt response.=0A>=0A>
=0A>So, once again one is expecting a warm fuzzy feeling - AFTER
the fact. =0A> One is relying on analysis company NOT to make a m
istake. Meanwhile =0A>people think they are doing something good
for their engine. They are =0A>doing NOTHING for their engine,
they are ONLY justifying their =0A>actions with Monday Morning Qu
arterbacking. =0A>Also as I stated and explained with facts ...
What are you =0A>really analyzing, oil that has had 71% of the
oil replaced in a 50 =0A>hour period. =0A>=0A>=0A>Think of it this way:=0A
>If you changed your oil at 30 hour intervals you would know and
see =0A>the color of the oil. =0A>So and quick change in color or smell
would be much easily detected. =0A> And this is something that
does not require a huge delay in time =0A>while operating your
engine under adverse conditions.=0A>AND MAYBE - If the oil was changed
sooner you would have not had a =0A>ring failure. OK! I'm
really stretching with that statement. =0A>=0A>=0A>So don't go patting
yourself on the back for having your =0A>oil analyzed OR for wai
ting to get a analysis report and making a =0A>phone call. OR fo
r making the decision to fly back home with a bad =0A>ring. So a
s you say: "What more evidence would anyone need to become =0A>a
believer???"=0A>=0A>=0A>Barry=0A>PS:=0A>By the way - Flying back
is another entire decision making =0A>process that could go under
-========================
========== =0A=0A=0A=0A
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|