Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:50 AM - Re: Night and Day (STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2)
2. 07:05 AM - Outrigger mod. (Fergus Kyle)
3. 07:43 AM - Re: Night and Day (Ron Parigoris)
4. 07:57 AM - Re: Night and Day (DJA727@aol.com)
5. 08:14 AM - Re: Night and Day (DJA727@aol.com)
6. 08:23 AM - Re: Night and Day (Peter Zutrauen)
7. 09:01 AM - Re: Night and Day 2 (Ron Parigoris)
8. 09:09 AM - Re: Night and Day (DJA727@aol.com)
9. 09:19 AM - Re: Night and Day Rotax notes (Ron Parigoris)
10. 09:45 AM - Re: Night and Day 3 (Ron Parigoris)
11. 09:48 AM - Re: Night and Day 2 (Rob Housman)
12. 09:55 AM - Re: Night and Day Rotax notes (Tony S. Krzyzewski)
13. 09:59 AM - Anyone ever hand prop a 914? (Ron Parigoris)
14. 10:04 AM - Re: Night and Day (Terry Seaver)
15. 10:10 AM - Re: Night and Day Rotax notes (Ron Parigoris)
16. 10:22 AM - Re: Night and Day (Ron Parigoris)
17. 10:27 AM - Re: Night and Day 3 (DJA727@aol.com)
18. 10:32 AM - Re: Night and Day (DJA727@aol.com)
19. 10:33 AM - Re: Night and Day (Peter Zutrauen)
20. 10:33 AM - Re: Night and Day (DJA727@aol.com)
21. 01:03 PM - Re: Night and Day Rotax notes (Tony S. Krzyzewski)
22. 03:02 PM - Re: Outrigger mod. (kbcarpenter@comcast.net)
23. 04:51 PM - Re: Night and Day Rotax notes (Jim Brown)
24. 05:24 PM - Re: Night and Day Rotax notes (Ron Parigoris)
25. 07:25 PM - TCP? (kbcarpenter@comcast.net)
26. 09:37 PM - Re: Night and Day Rotax notes (DJA727@aol.com)
27. 09:38 PM - Re: TCP? (DJA727@aol.com)
28. 09:41 PM - Re: Night and Day Rotax notes (DJA727@aol.com)
29. 10:01 PM - Re: Night and Day Rotax notes (Tony S. Krzyzewski)
Message 1
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2" <garrys@att.com>
Dave, Can you share with the list the part number of the mounts, and
where / how you purchased them? Also, how big of a job was it to swap
them out?
Regards,
Garry V. Stout
District Manager, Finance, AT&T Business Services
Phone: 813-878-3929 Fax: 813-878-5651
E-Mail: garrys@att.com
.....taking a "business as usual" approach to the way things are managed
at AT&T is not appropriate. D. Dorman 1/16/03
-----Original Message-----
From: DJA727@aol.com [mailto:DJA727@aol.com]
Subject: Europa-List: Night and Day
--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
For those interested, I have run the 914 engine with the O200 engine
mounts
installed. I had to make some adjustments to various clearance items in
the
cowl to allow for additional engine motion during start.
All I can say is that the difference is remarkable. One thing I had not
thought of was the reduction in the noise level. Vibration is way down
and
the noise level appears to be as well. I have no quantitative
measurements,
but the engine sounds almost turbine like in its smoothness. I look
forward
to having the prop balanced on top of this mount change.
Dave
A227
Mini U2
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Cheers,
To those who inhabit this side of the Atlantic (the upwind side):
I have copied Nigel Charles' outrigger SS tube purchase and now have
plenty spare. If you would like to emulate the mod. let me know how much you
want and will acknowledge and arrange. It's a shame to leave some lying
around.....
Ferg
Europa A064
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Ron Parigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hey DJA727
On my speedwing monowheel, i plan on installing a 914, with CS.
I spoke to Bill Lockwood, from Lockwood Aviation in FL for some time
bout the rotax motors.
Any viabbarion kills the redrive. Unbalanced carbs, idle too slow and
"MOTORMOUNTS THAT ARE TOO SOFT!"
I am not an expert. I never saw a 914 mount in my hand.
But Bill is suppsedlly an expert and says that 0200 mounts are a bad
thing.
He said use the provided mounts, idle 1800RPM min, sync carbs exact both
low speed and high and have prop dynamic balanced.
Here is his exact quote:
"Motors like to be mounted fairly rigid, he is not real thrilled with
continental 0-200 Lord mounts if they are softer"
This is per a conversation 12-30-2002.
I am only repeating what he said.
Any other comments to the contrary?
Ron Parigoris
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
In a message dated 2/14/2003 4:51:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, garrys@att.com
writes:
> Dave, Can you share with the list the part number of the mounts, and
> where / how you purchased them? Also, how big of a job was it to swap
> them out?
>
The job was easy -- took about 3 hours and was mainly getting the lower
baffling out of the way to get access to the lower mounts. You need to get 8
"bushings" - 2 for each mount. I didn't know that and had to make 2 orders to
get the right amount. Here are the parts I ordered ( aircraft spruce part
numbers):
ENG MOUNT BUSHING # 530740
03-02710-1 4130 STEEL TUBE 1/2X.083 1FT
The steel tube was used to make the insert, since these mounts have a
different inner diameter. I cut them to the same length as the original
inserts in the other mounts. The job was very easy. The engine moves more now
than it did, so I have to make a few changes:
open the exhaust outlet hole slightly
lower the lower baffle slightly - should have been done anyway
open the hole for the air filter on the turbo slightly
file back the cowl in the area of the airmaster slip ring bracket
These were all done to avoid the start up shake contacting anything in the
cowl. The main thing I notice right away is the noise level being much lower.
Although I haven't flown yet, there is a vibration in the 2700 RPM range that
was very obvious before. Now, it is barely noticeable I can feel it, but
mainly because I knew it was there.
Dave A227
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
In a message dated 2/14/2003 7:44:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us writes:
Well, If it's not one thing, it's something else!! Here goes my opinion on
this:
> On my speedwing monowheel, i plan on installing a 914, with CS.
>
> I spoke to Bill Lockwood, from Lockwood Aviation in FL for some time
> bout the rotax motors.
>
> Any viabbarion kills the redrive. Unbalanced carbs, idle too slow and
> "MOTORMOUNTS THAT ARE TOO SOFT!"
>
@@@@@@ First, I don't know what you mean by "redrive". Are you referring
to the gear box?
> I am not an expert. I never saw a 914 mount in my hand.
>
> But Bill is suppsedlly an expert and says that 0200 mounts are a bad
> thing.
>
> He said use the provided mounts, idle 1800RPM min, sync carbs exact both
> low speed and high and have prop dynamic balanced.
>
@@@@On this subject, since the only adjustment I know of is the setting of
the throttle cable, I don't see where you can adjust both high and low RPM
carb balance. I will have the prop balanced. 1800 rpm is way too high for
landing this airplane, in my opinion. If vibration is bad, the vibration is
terrible with the stock mounts. To me, the more flexible mounts should allow
absorbtion of energy and reduce any loads on the engine.
> Here is his exact quote:
>
> "Motors like to be mounted fairly rigid, he is not real thrilled with
> continental 0-200 Lord mounts if they are softer"
>
@@@@@@@@@ This doesn't make sense to me. In all engine I have worked with -
both aircraft and auto, the goal is to relplace engine mounts when they get
stiff with age. I can't see where a hard engine mount would help the engine.
If this were true, why not just hard bolt the engine to the airframe! Could
it be that these are not mounts that are sold by Rotax? Do thtey have service
proiblems directly related to softer engine mounts? Engine mounts do not
cause vibration - they absorb vibrational energy. Another point - these are
aircraft engine mounts used on continental engines. What is different about a
rotax and what is thte physical reason that softer mounts are "bad"? I am not
a big fan of broad sweeping conclusions without supporting details.
> This is per a conversation 12-30-2002.
>
> I am only repeating what he said.
>
> Any other comments to the contrary?
>
Dave
A227
Message 6
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Zutrauen" <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
I think Bill Lockwood may have a point in that softer mounts would surely change
the harmonics of the engine/prop combination. But I wonder if his blanket statement
is valid for all prop/engine combos?
I wonder what rpm ranges are the trouble points ("torsional peaks") for the redrive
with the airmaster prop, on the 914 with the softer mounts? with the harder
mounts?
I wonder if anyone has done a tortional resonance/vibration analysis on the combination...
likely not I suspect. Is there a shop in the states capable of doing
such testing (like the Bob Harrison had done accross the pond on the Jabiru
3300/MT combo)?
Cheers & full of questions (what else is new?)
Pete
A239
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Parigoris [mailto:rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us]
Sent: Fri 2/14/2003 10:43 AM
To: europa-list@matronics.com
Cc:
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Night and Day
--> Europa-List message posted by: Ron Parigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hey DJA727
On my speedwing monowheel, i plan on installing a 914, with CS.
I spoke to Bill Lockwood, from Lockwood Aviation in FL for some time
bout the rotax motors.
Any viabbarion kills the redrive. Unbalanced carbs, idle too slow and
"MOTORMOUNTS THAT ARE TOO SOFT!"
I am not an expert. I never saw a 914 mount in my hand.
But Bill is suppsedlly an expert and says that 0200 mounts are a bad
thing.
He said use the provided mounts, idle 1800RPM min, sync carbs exact both
low speed and high and have prop dynamic balanced.
Here is his exact quote:
"Motors like to be mounted fairly rigid, he is not real thrilled with
continental 0-200 Lord mounts if they are softer"
This is per a conversation 12-30-2002.
I am only repeating what he said.
Any other comments to the contrary?
Ron Parigoris
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day 2 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Ron Parigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hello DJA727
(XXXXX) Again i have no direct experiance with Rotax motors. I am very
in tune with motors, and especial carbs and tuning.
DJA727@aol.com wrote:
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 2/14/2003 7:44:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us writes:
>
> Well, If it's not one thing, it's something else!! Here goes my opinion on
> this:
>
> > On my speedwing monowheel, i plan on installing a 914, with CS.
> >
> > I spoke to Bill Lockwood, from Lockwood Aviation in FL for some time
> > bout the rotax motors.
> >
> > Any viabbarion kills the redrive. Unbalanced carbs, idle too slow and
> > "MOTORMOUNTS THAT ARE TOO SOFT!"
> >
>
> @@@@@@ First, I don't know what you mean by "redrive". Are you referring
> to the gear box?
(XXXXX) Yes I what refer to as redrive is the gearbox. For whatever it
is worth, the 914 has a slight different ratio compared to 912 or 912S.
also he said you can hand prop a 912 or 914, but with the higher
compression of the 912S you can not hand prop.
>
> > I am not an expert. I never saw a 914 mount in my hand.
> >
> > But Bill is suppsedlly an expert and says that 0200 mounts are a bad
> > thing.
> >
> > He said use the provided mounts, idle 1800RPM min, sync carbs exact both
> > low speed and high and have prop dynamic balanced.
> >
>
> @@@@On this subject, since the only adjustment I know of is the setting of
(XXXXX) This motor has 2 carbs. If they are not in sync on both low and
high speed it will create excessive viabrations. First you need carbs in
sync at idle. Bill says the idle stop on the Bing is not real strong so
best use lever stop as the idle stop. If you pull on stop tooo hard it
bends. Again i am only repeating what an expert has told me, i have
never seen one. So you must sync so both carbs at idle are alllowing all
cyls to fire. Then you have off the stop sync. WEhat you need to do is
disconnect the cross over tubes for this adjustment, he attaches vacume
guages to the holes for the crossover, a perfect attach point. Now you
must run motor up and make sure the vacume at each carb is the same.
this is no different than if you ever fooled with a BMW Motorcycle that
happens to have 2 Bing constant velocity carbs. If idle is adjusted
properly, does not mean off idle is adjusted properly.
Here again i have no experiance adding full power on a monowheel with
brake on, but i read somewhere that when a monowheel owner got to
something like 75 or 80% power with brake on attemptong to do a full
power ground test, it nosed over! He said he now attaches a rope to the
tailwheel and runs over it with a car tire.
> the throttle cable, I don't see where you can adjust both high and low RPM
> carb balance. I will have the prop balanced. 1800 rpm is way too high for
> landing this airplane, in my opinion.
(XXXXX) The Europa is a pretty slippery aeroplane, may be true you can
not land with 1800RPM. Going back to Mr. Lockwood who has plenty of time
repairing torn up "Gearboxes" says too slow causes viabration that tears
up the boxes. There are I am sure different types of viabrations. You
are referring to the buzzey little movements while in flight. I am sure
Mr Lockwood is referring to start up and idle/low power shake that kills
the boxes, not the low shock buzzey high RPMs. Anyway, reading bout how
things on the 0200 mount install needed to allow for more motor shake,
kinda sortta would indicate that it would stress the box more than
harder mounts.
Again i am just looking for pros and Cons, then after facts are in i can
make an educated decision.
I will try and copy and paste my EXCEL notes on another post and you can
try and wade through them.
1 thing that made me feel better, is if even on the most worn gearbox
there is, it will not let you down n flight, it can sound terrable, and
be costly to repair, but it just will begin to give you starting
problems (he said Rotax has very light flywheel and without tight
gearbox not enough mass to fire up), eventual will just not start.
If vibration is bad, the vibration is
> terrible with the stock mounts. To me, the more flexible mounts should allow
> absorbtion of energy and reduce any loads on the engine.
>
> > Here is his exact quote:
> >
> > "Motors like to be mounted fairly rigid, he is not real thrilled with
> > continental 0-200 Lord mounts if they are softer"
> >
>
> @@@@@@@@@ This doesn't make sense to me. In all engine I have worked with -
> both aircraft and auto, the goal is to relplace engine mounts when they get
> stiff with age. I can't see where a hard engine mount would help the engine.
> If this were true, why not just hard bolt the engine to the airframe! Could
> it be that these are not mounts that are sold by Rotax? Do thtey have service
> proiblems directly related to softer engine mounts? Engine mounts do not
> cause vibration - they absorb vibrational energy. Another point - these are
> aircraft engine mounts used on continental engines. What is different about a
> rotax and what is thte physical reason that softer mounts are "bad"? I am not
> a big fan of broad sweeping conclusions without supporting details.
(XXXXX) I hope I gave a bit of insite in above. i had a 1948 cessna 170
for 19 years. you replace mounts when they get stiff with large cubic
inch, high torque motors that use Applied Arciac Technology as the theme
for design.
The Rotax is alot closer to a honda Goldwing or BMW boxer than it is to
a Continental or Lycoming. It is light, much higher RPM and much lower
torque. Since HP is equal to torque times RPM (plus a fudge factor), it
matters no none not how you make a hundred HP, as far as work goes it
will do not considering other losses. You can use high RPM and low
torque or low RPM and high torque.
Now for the big Screw. propellors are much more efficient at Europa
speeds spinning large and slow as compared to spinning a smaller faster.
Going supersonic at the tips and associated noise is an issue.
So they take a high RPM low torque motor and turn it into a low RPM
high torque motor, how REDRIVE. This is not unlike how an automobile
transmission does its magic. if you have a 100HP toyota and measure the
motore direct off crank it will be 100HP. Now for this exampole i am
considering the tranny does not have any frictional lossed. In first
gear, very low RPM and very high torque or 100HP, then 4th gear which is
a 1 to 1 is same as motor, higher RPM and lower torque than first gear
but 100HP, then overdrive which is very high RPM and very low torque, or
100RPM.
The geardrive is the weak link on the Rotax, take a look at Katan fleet
service record. Out of sync carbs, idle too slow and 100LL lead getting
into and causing grief with slipper clutches, and using Castrol GTX that
is not good for gearbox at all.
The box takes a beating. You ever see a BMW boxer twin from WW2 to now
that has its motor held in place with rubber??? Out of sync it shakes
pretty good, in sync it is Much more better.
(XXXXX) I am not forming an opinion yet but gathering info, once my nose
is being rubbed into fooling real time, i will pull up Factual Database
stored between my sholders and Apply.
Next post will be what i have gathered on Rotax.
Ron Parigoris
>
> > This is per a conversation 12-30-2002.
> >
> > I am only repeating what he said.
> >
> > Any other comments to the contrary?
> >
>
> Dave
> A227
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
In a message dated 2/14/2003 8:23:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,
peterz@zutrasoft.com writes:
> I think Bill Lockwood may have a point in that softer mounts would surely
> change the harmonics of the engine/prop combination. But I wonder if his
> blanket statement is valid for all prop/engine combos?
> @@@@@ I don't really thing the mounts effect the resonant frequency of an
> engine/prop combination. The mounts absorb the resulting vibrational
> energy, but do not cause it. In an extreme case, hard bolting the engine to
> the airframe would result in zero energy absorption and all that energy
> would be taken either in the airframe or in a reaction force in the engine.
>
> I wonder what rpm ranges are the trouble points ("torsional peaks") for the
> redrive with the airmaster prop, on the 914 with the softer mounts? with
> the harder mounts?
>
@@@@(what is redrive??? Is that a British term?) I have seen vibration
increases in the 2600 - 2700 range and at the 5,000 range. Initial
observations of about 30 minutes of running with these new mounts show the
same vibrational resonant frequencies, just a lower perceived noise and
vibration level in the cockpit.
> I wonder if anyone has done a tortional resonance/vibration analysis on the
> combination... likely not I suspect. Is there a shop in the states capable
> of doing such testing (like the Bob Harrison had done accross the pond on
> the Jabiru 3300/MT combo)?
>
> Cheers &full of questions (what else is new?)
@@@@@@@ I may be speaking from a point of ignorance, but again I still
think the rotating parts are what cause the vibrational resonance. Since the
mounts are fixed, they will not contribute to the vibration. For example,
when the eingine/prop is at the 2700 RPm range and hitting a peak, the harder
mounts will allow this vibration to transfer into the airframe more than the
softer mounts. With softer mounts, the engine will move more at this
frequency, but of the prop is balanced and the engine is running smoothly, I
wouldn't think it would be a problem. I would hope that that this engine is
not so sensitive that it cannot be mounted via aircraft quality engine mounts
without having a problem.
My "gut" reaction to this engine operation with the kit provided mounts,
after thousands of hours siting behind lycoming engines, is that it felt like
it was bolted to the airplane. It did not feel right. Now, with these new
mounts it does feel "right". For 24 hours or so, I was feeling way better
about this engine installation, of course now there is water dashed upon
that. I too am full of questions!!!!
By the way, I don't know how old the mounts are I have with the kit. They do
stiffen with age. These continental mounts have a manufacture date for that
very reason.
Cheers!
Dave A227
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day Rotax notes |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Ron Parigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Rotax notes
For what it is worth, i copy and pasted my rotax notes from excel into
this E-Mail, poor format. You can probably wade through.
Again i am not an Expert, i have never seen a rotax up close except at
the factory for a demo flight. I am pretty good about picking peoples
brains who know, then try beating up what is told me to get what is
probably pretty close what i want to know.
Please beat anything up listed if it sounds not right.
Ron Parigoris
12-30-2002 conversation with Phil Lockwood from LOCKWOOD
AVIATION in FL. Kerry is other technition 1-800-LA ROTAX or Technical
Assistance 1-863-655-6229
Gal from Lockwood recced. Looking at www.rotax-owner.com
Lockwood Aviation sells Rotax motors and flight and engine instruments
and is largest Rotax dealer in Country, they will honor all Warrenty
work
If purchase from them, expect more special treatment after warrenty
Motors like to be mounted fairly rigid, he is not real thrilled with
continental 0-200 Lord mounts if they are softer
Cylinders are Nicocil plated Aluminium, they do not rust or wear! If
they need replacing, they only cost ~$250, he said some real high time
like 4000 hours only .001 wear
Spark plugs are standard NGKs. Change bout 200 hours. They load up and
run rough, especial with Leaded fuel
Has E.I. By Ducati, black box with a stator and a coil on block
Reccomended MoGas for lower power settings and less than 12,000 feet.
Above, MoGas can vapor lock, although not bad on 914, high pressure
pumps circulating fuel. Best use 100LL and TCP, some fly high on MoGas
and 914s
If you run 100LL run 5,000 to 5,500 RPM and use TCP, or it can stick
valves. Jeff from ABC Rental said he trained on Katana, choir to keep
temps. Up to make TCP work, need heat to get lead out
914 is motor that is used in Preditor, tons sold, a lot of R+D went into
it and newest one is pretty good
914 runs a bit smoother with lower compression compared to 912S 100HP,
also 912S can not be hand propped, 914 can
914 will run all day till TBO at 35 inches, 40 inches for 5 minutes. 30
inches and MoGas should make things last longer and work fine.
914 has a 2.43 to 1 gearbox, and the 912 a 2.27 to 1 box (1800RPM Idle
will equate to a slightly slower prop than 912? So perhaps idle up just
a bit)
914 has hydrolic lifters, if motor turned backwards, will suck air in
oil lines, or if lines filled with air, can cause lifter problems
Fill oil filter, and hand prop or crank motor till pressure
TBO on 914 is 1000 hrs.
Europa Demo has close to 1,000 hrs., use auto or better cycle oil with
gear lube, not aviation oil, Lockwood likes synthetic
Turbo is air cooled, works well
Intercooler a good idea, 90 degree TO will overheat airbox temp and
boost will go down
John @ Europa said Intercooler an easy option, it mounts above air
intake, need to move oil tank from right to left side
Some folk had turbo stick with non synthetic oil
Turbo Exhaust is Factory and nice, recently they made it out of thicker
material, significant change. He said older thinner would go to TBO
newer ones should be longer.
He said Rotax motors gets a bad rap, because some Mfgs. Made less than
great exhaust systems that were no where near the quality of the Rotax
motor
Oil change at 50 hours, especial 100LL, synthetic cycle oil with gear
lube, think Castrol GTR (think 100 hrs recced? But 100LL gets things
dirty)
He said motors are kinda broken in at Factory, uses Synthetic from get
go
Jeff ABC Rental trained in a Katana with 80HP said Castrol GTX does not
hold up under shear stress
Motor takes 3 qts oil, dosent leak or will you need to be adding.
Overall very reliable, give it fuel and oil and they run very reliably
Blocks crack in some glider tow operations. Very few. They begin to leak
oil. Incrediable loads, and they crack after the motors are high time.
No failures, just leak oil. Rotax investigating, thinks they will never
resolve completely. Full power, get hot, dive no power and cool, hard on
any motor.
Prop strike can twist a crank. Cranks are pressed together. Rotax only
allows 1 pressing, so at TBO you replace them. ~2800
Rods have plain bearing, no can service, mains 2 piece and replacable
Aeromaster CS props OK, uses warp drive CF Blades. Had problem with
ejecting blades early on, thinks problems resolved. He does not sell
aeromaster.
Said MT and Hoffman or MT/Hoffman was expensive but great ~$7500, but
uses wood core blades???
think without accessories, motor is 124 lbs!!!
He uses Blue Aeroquip hoses, he thinks good to 300PSI? I think these are
ones Brian uses on Balloons for LPG even though they are not rated for
LPG and do not have certification.
He thinks teflon/wire reinforced may take a set after a while??? He says
no need for anything more than Blue in his opinion
Gearbox failures, the worst noisey worn box will not let you down in
flight. They will not start. The motor relies on some inertia from prop
and box, worn will not allow a start, has light flywheel
Katana problems: Idle at 1800RPM Min.!!!! Less will wear out gearbox so
minimum 1800RPM he said he can hear motor pounding too low RPM or out of
sync carb across field
Gearbox 600 hours new belville spring washers and re shim, if no do this
big repair at 900 hours, splines and other, pounding does them in
(Europa sends in box at 300 hours for inspection
Say no to pounding for long gearbox life. Minimum of 1800RPM idle,
cutting out motor with fuel cut off may cause pounding??
Europa said every 300 hrs. they send gearbox out for inspection, said 20
minutes to take out
You are right when it comes to abuse in the training fleet. The most
frequently replaced parts on these planes is the gear-box and clutch.
Must These motors have a slipper clutch to protect
prop strikes, 1 guy had lead in it from 100LL and there is an
adjustment, plobably the shims that rotax guy mentioned
be the result of all that yanking of the throttle for all those practice
engine-outs. Then it's rebuilding those carbs.... seems like they are
always
fiddling with those. Luckily with liquid-cooled heads shock cooling is
not an issue.
Dynamic balance prop. He said sometimes you get luckey, usual not. Have
it dynamic Balanced, balance critical, Europa demo flight, not balanced,
but he was headed to get it done, he just put on new blades as the ones
he replaced had some corrosion from spending 40 days and 40 nights in
the rain when it got stuck somewhere and they left it outside. anyway
supposedly they have better seals now.
Has Bing carbs, constant velocity, has 3 jet needle positions. Does not
have a mixture control. Said works well. Forget number of hours, but
carb snot a problem after a while (200 or 300 hour clean up?) same
problem with R-100GS
Said was not reccomended to cut off fuel? Said stabil a good idea or use
AvGas if no fly for a while probably cutting off motor with fuel will
make miss and hurt gearbox?
Balance of carbs critical, first you must plug up balance tubes. Most
carbs set that they go full bore if cable lets go. You need to pull to
idle. Well idle stops are not real strong, he uses balance tubes for
guage connection
You are best off taking out idle stops and using cable stops for
adjustment. He likes cycle arrangement better. Use stops and give
cables a bit of free play. You can't pull against stops they will change
after idle set at minimum 1800RPM sync carbs over idle, again have
balance tubes plugged up. As a matter of fact, he plugs guages into
those balance tube holes
He can hear an out of sync Rotax across field
Ira Said heard Turbo problems, overflow spewing out coolant all over
supposedly AD on it
Ira Said heard that wastegates stick on turbo??
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day 3 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Ron Parigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hey DJA727
@@@@(what is redrive??? Is that a British term?) I have seen vibration
> increases in the 2600 - 2700 range and at the 5,000 range. Initial
> observations of about 30 minutes of running with these new mounts show the
> same vibrational resonant frequencies, just a lower perceived noise and
> vibration level in the cockpit.
Redrive is short for Reduction Drive. When fooling with a Kasperwing
I-80 Motorglider in the early 80s it was common slang. It is stuck in my
head. i live on long Island NY.
Again i am too trying to get to the bottom of things.
First off i off the bat read a few years ago of someone using 0200
maunts on rotax and liking it. i liked idea. Bill dosent.
I think start up low speed shake out of sync is a terrable thing after
talking to Bill and katana maintainers.
I like smooth in flight buzz if i can, but at the detrement of killing
the Gearbox, well maby not.
My 1988 R-100GS mounts motor direct to frame without a problem, similar
tune to rotax. It is a bit buzzey at handlebars at high speeds, but the
combo lasts a long long time.
As far as in flight buzz:
Did you sync the carbs exact the low speed?
Did you sync the carbs exact high speed?
Did you have prop dynamic balanced?
You may have 1 or more of the above slightly out and the soft is
treating symptoms with possable detriment to the box?
I would like to hear if the above are spot on.
If you did not, i was wondering if you could do an experiment. Note how
much motor jumps around in its mount on start up and idle, then note
viabration in flight. Then make above adjustments and note if start up
and idle shake and in flight buzz is better/worst or the same.
========================================================================
With R-100GS that uses Bing constant velocity carbs, carb snot is a
problem. It has never manifested itself in the high speed of things, but
mostly the enriching circuit. Bill says Ratax are prone to the same. It
began with the bike as having a slight hard time when cold out, only run
on 1 cyl, then harder and harder to start. then i clean it out.
I always turn off gas and run out. I would have probably have done this
on europa (i do it on all motors if i can) but since usual 1 carb runs
out before other, this is a bad idea for gearbox.
Will probaly just use stabil if sitting for more than a week, or perhaps
incorporate a way of draining the bowls with minimal chance of
reliability or failure/error.
I actual had a drain on back of carb and accelerator pump on my C145
continental, that gave me twice the life on carb rebuilds, especial
accelerator pump going bad.
Note on bing carbs, it is a good idea to replace the float bowl gaskets
when you disassemble. Yes you can use them over if they do not rip, but
old gaskets that have are virgin ordisassembled tend to weap/seep a bit
and stain carb. new gaskets do not for a while. this is not a big issue,
but gaskets are cheap.
Ron Parigoris
Message 11
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Rob Housman" <RobH@hyperion-ef.com>
Hand prop a 914????
Here's some text (cut and pasted) from the Europa XS Rotax 914 Installation
Manual, Issue 4, Page 1-1, September 2001:
"Caution: It should be noted that before the two ignition leads which come
from the ignition box are
earthed, the ignition is "live". Even though the engine speed must be at
least 1200 rpm for the
ignition to fire, it would be a sensible precaution to fit the magneto
switches before further work is
carried out on the engine, or at least temporary earth leads connecting the
ignition wires to the
engine casing."
Did this "expert" suggest how to get 1200 RPM by hand propping?
Let's do some math. 1200 RPM at the engine is 494 RPM at the prop (the gear
ratio is 2.4286:1) so if you grab the prop at, oh let's say, 30 inches (76
cm) from the hub's center you must fling the thing at 88 MPH (141 KPH) or
129 feet/second (3934 cm/sec). Putting that in perspective, a Major League
baseball pitcher, or a really good amateur, can throw a baseball a bit
faster than that, but that is a whole lot easier than turning over a Rotax
with it's 9:1 compression ratio.
Best regards,
Rob Housman
A070
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Ron Parigoris
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Night and Day 2
--> Europa-List message posted by: Ron Parigoris
<rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hello DJA727
<snip>
> @@@@@@ First, I don't know what you mean by "redrive". Are you
referring
> to the gear box?
(XXXXX) Yes I what refer to as redrive is the gearbox. For whatever it
is worth, the 914 has a slight different ratio compared to 912 or 912S.
also he said you can hand prop a 912 or 914, but with the higher
compression of the 912S you can not hand prop.
<snip>
Ron Parigoris
Message 12
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| Subject: | Night and Day Rotax notes |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
Ron,
Thanks for that set of notes from Lockwood aviation. There were a few
useful tips in there.
He did make a statement that Aeromaster (which I will take as Airmaster
as there is no Aeromaster prop) lost blades in the early days.
In the interests of accurately recording facts I'd just like to comment
that, in the entire 10 years history of Airmaster propellors, from the
AP308 developed when the company was know as Aerotrading Ltd and now
with the AP332 from Airmaster Ltd, no Airmaster hub ever shed a blade
either on the test rig or in flight.
Regards
Tony
Message 13
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| Subject: | Anyone ever hand prop a 914? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Ron Parigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
I was told by lockwood aviation that you could handprop a 912, and 914
in a pinch. Anyone ever do this?
He also mentioned that a 912S has too much compression to do it.
Thx. Rob Housman for the heads up. I use this simple approach to flying,
look for a reason, any reason to not go flying, if you can't find one,
then you need to go flying.
When in "Information Collection Mode" I get info then try and beat it
up. If it holds, then I will use it till it does not stand up.
does the 914 you have manual for have same ignition as 912 and 912S?
ron parigoris
> Hand prop a 914????
>
Even though the engine speed must be at
> least 1200 rpm for the
> ignition to fire,
>
> Did this "expert" suggest how to get 1200 RPM by hand propping?
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com>
Hi all,
I have also heard of Bill Lockwood's opinion that the gear box can suffer damage
if the idle is set below 1800 rpm. I have a few thoughts on that subject.
1. Even at 1400 rpm idle setting, the Rotax/Europa recommended idle speed, the
plane tends to float a little on landing (we have a short wing XS with 912S and
Whirlwind CS prop). At 1800 rpm idle setting (we tried this ONCE, after speaking
to Bill L.) the airplane becomes difficult to get down, a potential safety
concern, IMHO. We are currently set to a compromise of about 1600 rpm. The engine
idles fairly well and the plane eventually returns to earth at idle (except on
those pesky runways with some down slope).
2. Does a gear box that can be damaged this easily belong on any airplane?!
3. I have a Honda 919 motorcycle (four cylinders, 919 cc, 115 hp at the crank)
with virtually no flywheel and a very light crankshaft. It idles quite well at
1200 rpm, immediately on start-up! Why is it that a longer stroke Rotax, with a
flywheel, cannot be made to idle smoothly below 1400 rpm (or 1800 rpm, according
to Bill L.)? Is this 'rocket science' too much to expect in a 'modern' aircraft
engine? I suspect an ignition system with centrifugal advance (or electronic
equiv) and electronic fuel injection might help.
We have 250 hours on our engine now. Less vibration and noise at cruise would be
greatly appreciated, so we will be trying the softer mounts soon. If the Rotax
engine/gearbox craps out because of this, maybe we need to start looking at an
engine swap with my bike.
BTW, we have had our prop dynamically balanced three times, and have adjusted our
carbs with a solid state differential pressure transducer in place of the balance
tube. We adjusted with the cables at high throttle settings and with the idle
stops at idle.
regards,
Terry Seaver
Ron Parigoris wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Ron Parigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> Hey DJA727
>
> On my speedwing monowheel, i plan on installing a 914, with CS.
>
> I spoke to Bill Lockwood, from Lockwood Aviation in FL for some time
> bout the rotax motors.
>
> Any viabbarion kills the redrive. Unbalanced carbs, idle too slow and
> "MOTORMOUNTS THAT ARE TOO SOFT!"
>
> I am not an expert. I never saw a 914 mount in my hand.
>
> But Bill is suppsedlly an expert and says that 0200 mounts are a bad
> thing.
>
> He said use the provided mounts, idle 1800RPM min, sync carbs exact both
> low speed and high and have prop dynamic balanced.
>
> Here is his exact quote:
>
> "Motors like to be mounted fairly rigid, he is not real thrilled with
> continental 0-200 Lord mounts if they are softer"
>
> This is per a conversation 12-30-2002.
>
> I am only repeating what he said.
>
> Any other comments to the contrary?
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day Rotax notes |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Ron Parigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hey Tony S. Krzyzewski
Airmaster is the brand. I am a lousey speller and typist, and this
browser does not have spell check.
I am however anal retentive on getting in tune with projects at hand
prior to getting into.
I test flew on the factory demonstrator 914 mono 2 years ago.
They just installed new blades, the old ones developed corrosion and the
variable would not work properly.
I saw on Airmaster site the kinda sortta silicon inject prevention, and
perhaps other info that this problem was adressed.
The blades cam off easy, and the demo was with the new un dynamic
balanced blades. Think he was going to fly and get balanced the next
day.
I can't compare, but i thought the europa operated closer to a cross
between a fine Pfaff sewing machine, and a honda goldwing.
The motor is way closer to motorcycle than traditional Cs or Ls
ron parigoris
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Ron Parigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hey Terry Seaver
Great info on idle speed.
> 2. Does a gear box that can be damaged this easily belong on any airplane?!
Probably, it weighs not much and lasts a long time if treated properly.
Boy you should feel the boxer shake when not tuned properly. I can
actual adjust cables when on highway as good or better than with guages!
if you look at my notes, prior to any problems it lasts many hundreds of
hours even if being tortured. He said lasts a long long time if treated
properly.
>
> 3. I have a Honda 919 motorcycle (four cylinders, 919 cc, 115 hp at the crank)
maybe we need to start looking at an
> engine swap with my bike.
Wonder what a 919 motor would weigh in at with redrive, i would think
more than a rotax? would also think that it would wear if pounded as
well. a prop load at a very high power setting is a different story
compared to a light road load at low power setting. Your motor would
probably start till in flight failure?
Ron Parigoris
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day 3 |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
In a message dated 2/14/2003 9:45:28 AM Pacific Standard Time,
rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us writes:
> I like smooth in flight buzz if i can, but at the detrement of killing
> the Gearbox, well maby not.
>
What is the problem with the gear box? If the engine is balanced and the prop
too? I have the idle set at about 1500, but don't operate it that low - only
during the landing flare. This gives me the lower power during flare, but I
can still keep it up at around 1800 during taxi, etc.
Dave
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
In a message dated 2/14/2003 10:04:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
terrys@cisco.com writes:
> 2. Does a gear box that can be damaged this easily belong on any airplane?!
>
>
Terry,
This is my thought exactly!!!
Dave A227
Message 19
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "Peter Zutrauen" <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
Dave Wrote:
> @@@@@ I don't really thing the mounts effect the resonant frequency
of an
> engine/prop combination. The mounts absorb the resulting vibrational
> energy, but do not cause it. In an extreme case, hard bolting the engine
to
> the airframe would result in zero energy absorption and all that energy
> would be taken either in the airframe or in a reaction force in the engine.
PZ: In your extreme example where the engine is hard-bolted to the ariframe,
the resonant frequency of the Prop/Engine+Airframe is indeed different
from the the Prop/Engine alone as the mass of the "Engine" in the relationship
is effectively quadrupled (assuming infinite stiffness in the airframe) over
infinitely soft mounts.
Dave Wrote:
> @@@@@ With softer mounts, the engine will move more at this
frequency
PZ: And that is the major factor/problem. Once you start letting the engine
move more, depending on where the engine is in its 'loaded' or 'twisted'
position (as it is moving back and forth - with it's velocity in the form of a
sinewave), it could very well kick back with much more force against the prop
during a power-stroke. These 'opposite' phase impact forces between the prop
and the engine would load the gears up higher than with the harder mounts which
allow less movement. Add to this whole mess the gear-slop in the gearbox, and
the whole thing gets even worse to figure out.
PZ- It could very well be that these effects are only a problem at start-up
or idle, but I would be very interested in seeing some test data on the airmaster/914
configs (with a gearbox slop as per specification) with both soft
and hard mounts to see what the problematic RPMs would be.
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
In a message dated 2/14/2003 10:04:54 AM Pacific Standard Time,
terrys@cisco.com writes:
> t message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com>
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have also heard of Bill Lockwood's opinion that the gear box can suffer
> damage
> if the idle is set below 1800 rpm. I have a few thoughts on that subject.
>
> 1. Even at 1400 rpm idle setting, the Rotax/Europa recommended idle speed,
> the
> plane tends to float a little on landing (we have a short wing XS with 912S
> and
> Whirlwind CS prop). At 1800 rpm idle setting (we tried this ONCE, after
> speaking
> to Bill L.) the airplane becomes difficult to get down, a potential safety
> concern, IMHO. We are currently set to a compromise of about 1600 rpm. The
> engine
> idles fairly well and the plane eventually returns to earth at idle (except
> on
> those pesky runways with some down slope).
>
> 2. Does a gear box that can be damaged this easily belong on any airplane?!
>
> 3. I have a Honda 919 motorcycle (four cylinders, 919 cc, 115 hp at the
> crank)
> with virtually no flywheel and a very light crankshaft. It idles quite well
> at
> 1200 rpm, immediately on start-up! Why is it that a longer stroke Rotax,
> with a
> flywheel, cannot be made to idle smoothly below 1400 rpm (or 1800 rpm,
> according
> to Bill L.)? Is this 'rocket science' too much to expect in a 'modern'
> aircraft
> engine? I suspect an ignition system with centrifugal advance (or
> electronic
> equiv) and electronic fuel injection might help.
>
> We have 250 hours on our engine now. Less vibration and noise at cruise
> would be
> greatly appreciated, so we will be trying the softer mounts soon. If the
> Rotax
> engine/gearbox craps out because of this, maybe we need to start looking at
> an
> engine swap with my bike.
>
> BTW, we have had our prop dynamically balanced three times, and have
> adjusted our
> carbs with a solid state differential pressure transducer in place of the
> balance
> tube. We adjusted with the cables at high throttle settings and with the
> idle
> stops at idle.
>
Terry,
Very well said! I heard of some guy working on a new ignitions system for the
Rotax that will eliminate some of this discussion. I would be very interested
in this. You can't believe the difference in the smoothness and sound of
these mounts. My radios and electronics will thank me for this change!
'
Dave
Message 21
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| Subject: | Night and Day Rotax notes |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
>>> They just installed new blades, the old ones developed corrosion and
the
variable would not work properly.
Yes, that was their original AP308 which has an optical feedback system.
It wasn't a corrosion problem but one of dirt and oil getting onto the
optical detector for the feedback system. The AP332 which replaced the
AP308 a couple of years ago uses a magnetic feedback system and a
completely new control system which resolved that problem.
>>> I saw on Airmaster site the kinda sortta silicon inject prevention,
and
perhaps other info that this problem was adressed.
The silicon injection fix was brought about by a couple of instances
where an aircraft had been parked out in the rain and water had got into
the hub via the blades. Backfilling the blade retainer with silicon
fixed the problem quite easily and is now done as standard on all
shipped units.
Tony
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Outrigger mod. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: kbcarpenter@comcast.net
I'm interested. How do I send you the money?
Ken Carpenter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
Subject: Europa-List: Outrigger mod.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "Fergus Kyle" <VE3LVO@rac.ca>
>
> Cheers,
> To those who inhabit this side of the Atlantic (the upwind side):
> I have copied Nigel Charles' outrigger SS tube purchase and now
have
> plenty spare. If you would like to emulate the mod. let me know how much
you
> want and will acknowledge and arrange. It's a shame to leave some lying
> around.....
> Ferg
> Europa A064
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day Rotax notes |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Jim Brown <acrojim@cfl.rr.com>
Ron
In one of your posting to the forum, you stated you were told that the 914 can
be hand propped!!!!!!! You were told wrong...As Rob Houseman stated in his memo
to you, the manual stated 1200 RPM before it will start. It seems to me the
manual said 300 RPM but I will check my maintenance manual next few days, I
could be wrong!!
The 914 requires Denso plugs, not NGK's. The new manual may say differently.
I run auto gas in my 914 and I routinely fly at 17.500 ft and have not had any
problem with vapor lock, due to the excess fuel being recirculated back to the
tank.
The 914 has a TBO of 1000 hr.. this is correct if installed in certified
aircraft. i.e. Katanas, if installed in experimental there is no TBO.
Your list has some good information in it, but it also has some personal
opinions from some of the people you have talked to that goes counter to what
Rotex recommends in their manuals.
Keep asking questions!!!! That's how you get answers.
Regards
Jim Brown
Ron Parigoris wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: Ron Parigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
>
> Rotax notes
>
> For what it is worth, i copy and pasted my rotax notes from excel into
> this E-Mail, poor format. You can probably wade through.
>
> Again i am not an Expert, i have never seen a rotax up close except at
> the factory for a demo flight. I am pretty good about picking peoples
> brains who know, then try beating up what is told me to get what is
> probably pretty close what i want to know.
>
> Please beat anything up listed if it sounds not right.
>
> Ron Parigoris
>
> 12-30-2002 conversation with Phil Lockwood from LOCKWOOD
> AVIATION in FL. Kerry is other technition 1-800-LA ROTAX or Technical
> Assistance 1-863-655-6229
> Gal from Lockwood recced. Looking at www.rotax-owner.com
> Lockwood Aviation sells Rotax motors and flight and engine instruments
> and is largest Rotax dealer in Country, they will honor all Warrenty
> work
> If purchase from them, expect more special treatment after warrenty
> Motors like to be mounted fairly rigid, he is not real thrilled with
> continental 0-200 Lord mounts if they are softer
> Cylinders are Nicocil plated Aluminium, they do not rust or wear! If
> they need replacing, they only cost ~$250, he said some real high time
> like 4000 hours only .001 wear
> Spark plugs are standard NGKs. Change bout 200 hours. They load up and
> run rough, especial with Leaded fuel
> Has E.I. By Ducati, black box with a stator and a coil on block
> Reccomended MoGas for lower power settings and less than 12,000 feet.
> Above, MoGas can vapor lock, although not bad on 914, high pressure
> pumps circulating fuel. Best use 100LL and TCP, some fly high on MoGas
> and 914s
> If you run 100LL run 5,000 to 5,500 RPM and use TCP, or it can stick
> valves. Jeff from ABC Rental said he trained on Katana, choir to keep
> temps. Up to make TCP work, need heat to get lead out
> 914 is motor that is used in Preditor, tons sold, a lot of R+D went into
> it and newest one is pretty good
> 914 runs a bit smoother with lower compression compared to 912S 100HP,
> also 912S can not be hand propped, 914 can
> 914 will run all day till TBO at 35 inches, 40 inches for 5 minutes. 30
> inches and MoGas should make things last longer and work fine.
> 914 has a 2.43 to 1 gearbox, and the 912 a 2.27 to 1 box (1800RPM Idle
> will equate to a slightly slower prop than 912? So perhaps idle up just
> a bit)
> 914 has hydrolic lifters, if motor turned backwards, will suck air in
> oil lines, or if lines filled with air, can cause lifter problems
> Fill oil filter, and hand prop or crank motor till pressure
> TBO on 914 is 1000 hrs.
> Europa Demo has close to 1,000 hrs., use auto or better cycle oil with
> gear lube, not aviation oil, Lockwood likes synthetic
> Turbo is air cooled, works well
> Intercooler a good idea, 90 degree TO will overheat airbox temp and
> boost will go down
> John @ Europa said Intercooler an easy option, it mounts above air
> intake, need to move oil tank from right to left side
> Some folk had turbo stick with non synthetic oil
> Turbo Exhaust is Factory and nice, recently they made it out of thicker
> material, significant change. He said older thinner would go to TBO
> newer ones should be longer.
> He said Rotax motors gets a bad rap, because some Mfgs. Made less than
> great exhaust systems that were no where near the quality of the Rotax
> motor
> Oil change at 50 hours, especial 100LL, synthetic cycle oil with gear
> lube, think Castrol GTR (think 100 hrs recced? But 100LL gets things
> dirty)
> He said motors are kinda broken in at Factory, uses Synthetic from get
> go
> Jeff ABC Rental trained in a Katana with 80HP said Castrol GTX does not
> hold up under shear stress
> Motor takes 3 qts oil, dosent leak or will you need to be adding.
> Overall very reliable, give it fuel and oil and they run very reliably
> Blocks crack in some glider tow operations. Very few. They begin to leak
> oil. Incrediable loads, and they crack after the motors are high time.
> No failures, just leak oil. Rotax investigating, thinks they will never
> resolve completely. Full power, get hot, dive no power and cool, hard on
> any motor.
> Prop strike can twist a crank. Cranks are pressed together. Rotax only
> allows 1 pressing, so at TBO you replace them. ~2800
> Rods have plain bearing, no can service, mains 2 piece and replacable
> Aeromaster CS props OK, uses warp drive CF Blades. Had problem with
> ejecting blades early on, thinks problems resolved. He does not sell
> aeromaster.
> Said MT and Hoffman or MT/Hoffman was expensive but great ~$7500, but
> uses wood core blades???
> think without accessories, motor is 124 lbs!!!
> He uses Blue Aeroquip hoses, he thinks good to 300PSI? I think these are
> ones Brian uses on Balloons for LPG even though they are not rated for
> LPG and do not have certification.
> He thinks teflon/wire reinforced may take a set after a while??? He says
> no need for anything more than Blue in his opinion
> Gearbox failures, the worst noisey worn box will not let you down in
> flight. They will not start. The motor relies on some inertia from prop
> and box, worn will not allow a start, has light flywheel
> Katana problems: Idle at 1800RPM Min.!!!! Less will wear out gearbox so
> minimum 1800RPM he said he can hear motor pounding too low RPM or out of
> sync carb across field
> Gearbox 600 hours new belville spring washers and re shim, if no do this
> big repair at 900 hours, splines and other, pounding does them in
> (Europa sends in box at 300 hours for inspection
> Say no to pounding for long gearbox life. Minimum of 1800RPM idle,
> cutting out motor with fuel cut off may cause pounding??
> Europa said every 300 hrs. they send gearbox out for inspection, said 20
> minutes to take out
> You are right when it comes to abuse in the training fleet. The most
> frequently replaced parts on these planes is the gear-box and clutch.
> Must These motors have a slipper clutch to protect
> prop strikes, 1 guy had lead in it from 100LL and there is an
> adjustment, plobably the shims that rotax guy mentioned
> be the result of all that yanking of the throttle for all those practice
> engine-outs. Then it's rebuilding those carbs.... seems like they are
> always
> fiddling with those. Luckily with liquid-cooled heads shock cooling is
> not an issue.
> Dynamic balance prop. He said sometimes you get luckey, usual not. Have
> it dynamic Balanced, balance critical, Europa demo flight, not balanced,
> but he was headed to get it done, he just put on new blades as the ones
> he replaced had some corrosion from spending 40 days and 40 nights in
> the rain when it got stuck somewhere and they left it outside. anyway
> supposedly they have better seals now.
> Has Bing carbs, constant velocity, has 3 jet needle positions. Does not
> have a mixture control. Said works well. Forget number of hours, but
> carb snot a problem after a while (200 or 300 hour clean up?) same
> problem with R-100GS
> Said was not reccomended to cut off fuel? Said stabil a good idea or use
> AvGas if no fly for a while probably cutting off motor with fuel will
> make miss and hurt gearbox?
> Balance of carbs critical, first you must plug up balance tubes. Most
> carbs set that they go full bore if cable lets go. You need to pull to
> idle. Well idle stops are not real strong, he uses balance tubes for
> guage connection
> You are best off taking out idle stops and using cable stops for
> adjustment. He likes cycle arrangement better. Use stops and give
> cables a bit of free play. You can't pull against stops they will change
> after idle set at minimum 1800RPM sync carbs over idle, again have
> balance tubes plugged up. As a matter of fact, he plugs guages into
> those balance tube holes
> He can hear an out of sync Rotax across field
> Ira Said heard Turbo problems, overflow spewing out coolant all over
> supposedly AD on it
> Ira Said heard that wastegates stick on turbo??
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day Rotax notes |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Ron Parigoris <rparigor@suffolk.lib.ny.us>
Hey Jim Brown
Thx. for your imput.
I believe the 914 that is used in the Europa is not a certified motor.
Matters no none not, the "Reccomended" TBO is still a thousand hours i
believe.
Not ever reading or fooling with motor, i kinda sortta find it hard to
believe that your starter motor has to crank motor over at 1200rpm to
light it off.
Perhaps it may be true that the magnito may need 1200rpm to begin
working, but perhaps there is some sorta other trigger? low speed
starting feedback like shower of sparks on Lycs.?
I am listing just what i heard thus far. If there is conflicts, good to
know both sides, then probe.
I am now curious if you can hand prop a 914?
If anyone is changing plugs, would be a neat test to see if there is
spark on one or both mags by hand propping.
ron parigoris
Message 25
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--> Europa-List message posted by: kbcarpenter@comcast.net
Anyone know where to get TCP? Aircraft Spruce say it is on indefinite backorder.
Ken Carpenter
N9XS A123
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day Rotax notes |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
In a message dated 2/14/2003 4:51:45 PM Pacific Standard Time,
acrojim@cfl.rr.com writes:
> The 914 has a TBO of 1000 hr.. this is correct if installed in certified
> aircraft. i.e. Katanas, if installed in experimental there is no TBO.
>
It is just overhaul on "condition" for experimental.
Dave A227
Message 27
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--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
In a message dated 2/14/2003 7:26:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
kbcarpenter@comcast.net writes:
> Anyone know where to get TCP? Aircraft Spruce say it is on indefinite
> backorder.
> Ken Carpenter
>
Tried Sacramento Skyranch?
Dave A227
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Night and Day Rotax notes |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
Here is one more data point for the big engine mount controversy:
I ran again this morning with the engine cowled up to 5,000 RPM. At that
point, an old 60s Motown song came to mind - and I paraphrase:
"If these mounts are wrong. I don't want to be right!!!"
It runs and sounds SO smooth!! What a difference!
Dave A227
Message 29
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| Subject: | Night and Day Rotax notes |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" <tonyk@kaon.co.nz>
>>>Matters no none not, the "Reccomended" TBO is still a thousand hours
i
believe.
Nope... I know of 914's that have 1600+ hours on the clock and are still
going strong. There is no mandatory requirement to overhaul a non
certified engine.
>>>Perhaps it may be true that the magnito may need 1200rpm to begin
working, but perhaps there is some sorta other trigger? low speed
starting feedback like shower of sparks on Lycs.?
Nope again. The ignition coils need at least 300rpm+ before they'll
induce enough current to trigger the electronic ignition. The engine
uses a standard Ducati electronic ignition system with the trigger coils
on the aft rotor plate.
>> I am now curious if you can hand prop a 914?
If you can then you'll have the strongest arm I've ever seen. I don't
know of anyone who has or anyone who has even bothered.
I had a good talk with one of the Predator designers at the Avalon
airshow in Australia last week. He said that they were having problems
with 914 reliability until the rocker arm mod. Since then they've had
excellent reliability. They replace the turbo on the engine with a
double boost unit and fly the 914's above 30,000 feet. I suspect that
the Predator has been largely responsible for the recent burst of 914
service advisories and bulletins from Rotax ... and all to our benefit.
Tony
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