---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 02/25/03: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:24 AM - Re: SV: Andair Fuel Selector Extensions (STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2) 2. 05:52 AM - Re: Seats & stainless Reg No. plate (Dave_Miller@ca.cgugroup.com) 3. 06:00 AM - Re: SV: Andair Fuel Selector Extensions (R.C.Harrison) 4. 08:09 AM - Re: SV: Andair Fuel Selector Extensions (Roger Anderson) 5. 09:40 AM - Re: SV: Andair Fuel Selector Extensions (Tony S. Krzyzewski) 6. 12:18 PM - Control surfaces filling (Garry Copeland) 7. 12:35 PM - Re: Control surfaces filling (Richard) 8. 12:53 PM - Re: Control surfaces filling (Dave_Miller@ca.cgugroup.com) 9. 01:02 PM - Re: Spinning.......... (James H Nelson) 10. 01:11 PM - Re: air brake push rod (R.K. Hallett III) 11. 01:21 PM - Re: air brake push rod (Tony S. Krzyzewski) 12. 01:29 PM - Re: Control surfaces filling (irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu) 13. 03:06 PM - Re: Control surfaces filling (R.C.Harrison) 14. 05:55 PM - Re: Control surfaces filling (Kingsley Hurst) 15. 06:09 PM - Re: Control surfaces filling (Tony S. Krzyzewski) 16. 06:47 PM - Re: Control surfaces filling (Chuck Popenoe) 17. 07:42 PM - Re: Control surfaces filling (Kingsley Hurst) 18. 10:38 PM - Door Gas Strut Mod. (William Mills) 19. 11:53 PM - Re: Door locks (Paul Stewart) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:40 AM PST US Subject: RE: SV: Europa-List: Andair Fuel Selector Extensions From: "STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2" --> Europa-List message posted by: "STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2" Just curious what others do. In the 4 years I've been flying my Europa, I have never touched my fuel selector valve. It stays in the "both" position at all times. Do others turn their's to "off" after each flight? Is there some benefit to constantly turning the valve off and on? Regards, Garry V. Stout -----Original Message----- From: Sidsel & Svein Johnsen [mailto:sidsel.svein@oslo.online.no] Subject: SV: SV: Europa-List: Andair Fuel Selector Extensions --> Europa-List message posted by: "Sidsel & Svein Johnsen" --> Europa-List message posted by: Tony Renshaw --- I have the original cockpit module, with the first stage LA mod for seat width. I believe the XS cockpit module is a lot narrower So the consequence of this is that I may widen my seat pans into the tunnel, and lower the shelf portion if I can, but the wheel and the flap tube will limit what I do. ----- I ideally want the selector where I can see it, but I could also put it under my right thigh support if it could fit there. Do you think it could go there?? ----- Tony, Some words of caution here: - Check ANY cuts, openings or mods to the cockpit module with the factory first. The c.m. carries sustantial loads, and also some in the longitudinal direction between the firewall/engine mount and the wing support part (or rather: where the module and the rest of the aircraft hang on the wings!) - I doubt that you physically can fit the selector under (or on the front of) the thigh support (at least not on XS) because of lack of space for the hoses inside the thigh support. I don't know the min. bending radius for your hose, but for the latest supplied by the factory I don't think less than 1 3/4" is recommended (based on info on similar hose available at local dealer here). - Even if you could fit the valve and hoses, a good rule is that the selector should be placed where it can easily be seen and operated both by the pilot in the left seat and by the (safety) pilot in the right seat. Good luck! Svein A225 (now in Norway) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:52:49 AM PST US From: Dave_Miller@ca.cgugroup.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Seats & stainless Reg No. plate 02/25/2003 08:52:26 AM, Serialize complete at 02/25/2003 08:52:26 AM --> Europa-List message posted by: Dave_Miller@ca.cgugroup.com Hi Richard, Paul McAllister's website has some details on seat pans. I've gone with 1/8th ply pans to follow the contours of the headrest,seatback,seat and thigh support, however i've put a foam wedge behind the seat back to move it forward by 6cm. This gives some room to hide the wing pins, but they still intrude into the seatback a little, it also gives a seat back angle of 105 degrees which was mentioned in a recent article in "Sport Aviation" as an optimal angle for comfort. It's a one piece set up glassed together,but it is not structural and can only be sat in when supported in the module.My intent is to add temper foam to a comfortable shape and then upholster. On another note, I wish I had made my door locks accessible, and Karl's suggestion to use only 1 lock makes a lot of sense Dave A061 "Richard" Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 02/24/03 03:53 PM Please respond to europa-list To: "Europa Matronics Forum" cc: Subject: Europa-List: Seats & stainless Reg No. plate --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard" What options are available on seats? Is this another DIY job or are there 'standard' off the peg seats available? Europa tell me that they will be supplying seats & upholstery options but it doesn't seem to be happening soon enough for me. Also where do I source an engraved stainless plate with my reg. no. on? Richard Iddon G-RIXS (UK based) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:52 AM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: SV: Europa-List: Andair Fuel Selector Extensions --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" No Garry leave it on. But don't forget to turn it off when checking your Andair Gascolator because the pain of Avgas 100ll in the eyes and ear is horrendous !!!! Been there got the "tee" shirt. Regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2 Subject: RE: SV: Europa-List: Andair Fuel Selector Extensions --> Europa-List message posted by: "STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2" Just curious what others do. In the 4 years I've been flying my Europa, I have never touched my fuel selector valve. It stays in the "both" position at all times. Do others turn their's to "off" after each flight? Is there some benefit to constantly turning the valve off and on? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:45 AM PST US From: "Roger Anderson" Subject: Re: SV: Europa-List: Andair Fuel Selector Extensions --> Europa-List message posted by: "Roger Anderson" > Just curious what others do. In the 4 years I've been flying my Europa, > I have never touched my fuel selector valve. It stays in the "both" > position at all times. Do others turn their's to "off" after each > flight? Is there some benefit to constantly turning the valve off and > on? Garry, Mine only goes off when I clean the filters (or if the aircraft is on fire!), as recommended by Ivan Shaw. Roger. G-BXTD ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:40:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: SV: Europa-List: Andair Fuel Selector Extensions From: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" Is there some benefit to constantly turning the valve off and > on? No, but there is a benefit in checking the reserve side actually works. I switch to reserve and fly for ten minutes on that side once every dozen or so flights. Tony ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:18:39 PM PST US From: "Garry Copeland" Subject: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry Copeland" Folks, I am about to start filling my control surfaces. Since space is limited I plan on filling all the surfaces, then erecting some dust contol measures and sanding them all. Is there an optimum time between filling and sanding back? I expect it will be a few weeks between filling the first surface and starting to sand it. I plan on using the Expancel that came with the kit. Thanks. Garry ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:17 PM PST US From: "Richard" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling --> Europa-List message posted by: "Richard" I believe it is OK to leave them for quite a while between filling & sanding. Allows the filler to cure fully and protects the surfaces until you can get back to them. The critical thing, in my (painful) experience is to make sure that you have the temperature high enough for a sufficient time to allow the epoxy to cure properly. Also, I would certainly recommend, as they do at the factory, to put a more filler on than you actually need then sand it back to a fair surface. i.e. Try to do all the filling in one go rather than in two or three thin layers. I tried to skimp, & ended up trying to put on a very thin layer which I then left at too low a temperature for a week or two. When I came back to it I found that it had not cured properly and would not, despite trying to 'cook it off' at around 30deg. for two days. I ended up spending several days and several reams of abrasive paper dragging all the uncured filler off before I could proceed. Richard Iddon G-RIXS -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Garry Copeland Subject: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry Copeland" Folks, I am about to start filling my control surfaces. Since space is limited I plan on filling all the surfaces, then erecting some dust contol measures and sanding them all. Is there an optimum time between filling and sanding back? I expect it will be a few weeks between filling the first surface and starting to sand it. I plan on using the Expancel that came with the kit. Thanks. Garry ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:53:04 PM PST US From: Dave_Miller@ca.cgugroup.com Subject: Re: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling 02/25/2003 03:52:42 PM, Serialize complete at 02/25/2003 03:52:42 PM --> Europa-List message posted by: Dave_Miller@ca.cgugroup.com As per Richard's response, time is not important but heat is. Also get the best abrasive paper you can find from a supply house specializing in auto body work I've been using 3M gold , it cuts quicker, smoother and longer than the stuff you find in do it yourself type stores Dave A061 (dusty miller) "Garry Copeland" Sent by: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com 02/25/03 03:17 PM Please respond to europa-list To: "europa list" cc: Subject: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry Copeland" Folks, I am about to start filling my control surfaces. Since space is limited I plan on filling all the surfaces, then erecting some dust contol measures and sanding them all. Is there an optimum time between filling and sanding back? I expect it will be a few weeks between filling the first surface and starting to sand it. I plan on using the Expancel that came with the kit. Thanks. Garry ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:02:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Spinning.......... From: James H Nelson --> Europa-List message posted by: James H Nelson Thanks Andy, I wasn't aware that it had been done. You are the first person to say so. I had heard that it hadn't been done. So the comment! I do enjoy the mono-wheel. Jim Nelson N15JN ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:13 PM PST US From: "R.K. Hallett III" Subject: Re: Europa-List: air brake push rod --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.K. Hallett III" Dave, Ok, I'll admit it in public, I'm a bozo. I found the 2 TU-2's in the cabinet! Great picture of Heavenly Valley from 17,500. Glassing of cockpit has gone well, and starting on tail. What fun! to be at it again. Ralph DJA727@aol.com wrote: >--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com > >In a message dated 2/22/2003 8:16:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, >reddog@gbis.com writes: > > > >>Thanks Dave, the got any ideas where I can buy this stuff in town? The >>TU2 never did come with the kit! >>BTW, the cockpit is in! Finished the gluing to day, really looking fwd >>to moving along much faster now. >>How's the flying? Had any more time in the air? >> >> >> >> > >Call John Hurst - he will make it good. You should have all the parts >required in the kit. The only other thing would be to go to Aircraft Spruce. > >Good deal on the cockpit. > >I have 6.4 hours now - flying again tomorrow morning. See the attached. It is >from last flight at 17,500. Everything is going well still. The 914 engine is >fantastic in this airplane. The climb rate will knock your socks off! > >Dave > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:20 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: air brake push rod From: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" >> Ok, I'll admit it in public, I'm a bozo. I found the 2 TU-2's in the cabinet! Bozos who will happily admit that they are bozos are always welcome. It just means that you are like most of the rest of us. :-) Tony Do not archive ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:35 PM PST US From: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu Subject: RE: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling 02/25/2003 04:28:48 PM --> Europa-List message posted by: irampil@notes.cc.sunysb.edu I don't know if this is of any interest, but last week (in Florida, t 75F), I started filling my control surfaces with that nice blue Polyfiber SuperFil. What was filled in the morning was fully cured and sanded in the afternoon. Ira N224XS ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:28 PM PST US From: "R.C.Harrison" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" Hi! Gary. For my experiences you need to not only control the heat high but also the humidity needs to be as low as possible for the whole of the curing period. The moisture combines with the surface and produces the "glue like" substance that Richard thinks is uncured resin.(there is a name for it but it escapes me) My experience of the Expandcell on the tail planes was sufficient for me to change over to Polyfibre. A by far superior substance to apply, cure and sand back. Their Smooth prime is then next applied by roller and is also extremely easy to "cut back" and "rag" pin holes away. (but both are expensive!) Also watch out that you don't loose the wing profiles, but I guess you have an XS with the "Aero-Fix" wing skins so perhaps not to worry on that score! regards Bob Harrison G-PTAG -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Garry Copeland Subject: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling --> Europa-List message posted by: "Garry Copeland" Folks, I am about to start filling my control surfaces. Since space is limited I plan on filling all the surfaces, then erecting some dust contol measures and sanding them all. Is there an optimum time between filling and sanding back? I expect it will be a few weeks between filling the first surface and starting to sand it. I plan on using the Expancel that came with the kit. Thanks. Garry ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:55:42 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garry Copeland" . > Is there an optimum time between filling and sanding back? Garry and all FWIW I do not yet have first hand experience with filling and sanding but I was present at a demonstration given by another builder some time ago for the benefit of about 7 or 8 other Europa builders. The man who gave the demo is very experienced with fibreglass work having designed and built glass yachts as a profession and has also built a Europa of course. Whilst everyone might not agree with the technique, thought I would share it anyway. When using the Expancel, it was applied fairly dry (to make it as light as possible) consistent with still being able to adhere Ok. It was applied quite thickly with the intention that extra filling later should not be necessary. No thickness gauges of any kind were used, just plastered on with a painters scaper which was about 4" (100mm) wide from memory. On the day after application, especially if slow hardener has been used, the epoxy is not fully cured and the majority of the filler can then be removed very quickly using a carpenters plane, the technique being to take it down until one can see it starting to get thin. During the planing operation, shavings were flying as if the tailplane was made of wood. This can only be done on flat surfaces or simple curved surfaces of course like the wings and tailplanes and I assume ailerons and flaps etc. The rest of the material is then taken down to the final profile with standard torture boards with varying grit sizes as normal. I wish I had been able to take a video of the faces of all those present that day (including mine) when we all saw one surface of a tailplane prepared ready for painting in 30 minutes. Some present had already spent days doing the same job and they were simply amazed and rather disappointed I might add that their knowledge had been gained a bit too late. How long to leave before sanding back? At the demo, the sanding was done immediately after the planing but I think I might leave mine go for a week or so to more fully cure after planing it down hopefully to help alleviate further shrinkage after sanding. In fact, I may prepare everything up to the ready to sand stage and then put it all in my closed in (and insulated) trailer for the heat curing which I have not yet done. Kingsley Hurst Mono Classic 281 in Oz ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:14 PM PST US Subject: RE: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling From: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" --> Europa-List message posted by: "Tony S. Krzyzewski" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garry Copeland" . > Is there an optimum time between filling and sanding back? For those using Superfil have a look in the archives for an email submitted by Nigel Graham on the 15th August 2001 entitled Wing Filling. The tramline technique he described works EXTREMELY well. I was able to establish a single surface wing profile over three evenings and am now filling in the areas between the profile lines with around 1/3 of a wing surface completed in an evening. I could have done the entire wing surface in an evening if CSI hadn't been on TV. As well as considerably reducing the sanding required it is reducing the profit of Polyfiber as I am having to use minimal Superfil on the surface. Tony ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:29 PM PST US From: "Chuck Popenoe" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling --> Europa-List message posted by: "Chuck Popenoe" Kingsley- As one of those unfortunates who has spent days on a tailplane, I wish that I had seen that demonstration before I began my filling/sanding! Now, when you speak of roughing out the majority of the filler with a carpenter's plane, was that a hand plane or one of the powered ones? Pops -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kingsley Hurst Subject: Re: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garry Copeland" . > Is there an optimum time between filling and sanding back? Garry and all FWIW I do not yet have first hand experience with filling and sanding but I was present at a demonstration given by another builder some time ago for the benefit of about 7 or 8 other Europa builders. The man who gave the demo is very experienced with fibreglass work having designed and built glass yachts as a profession and has also built a Europa of course. Whilst everyone might not agree with the technique, thought I would share it anyway. When using the Expancel, it was applied fairly dry (to make it as light as possible) consistent with still being able to adhere Ok. It was applied quite thickly with the intention that extra filling later should not be necessary. No thickness gauges of any kind were used, just plastered on with a painters scaper which was about 4" (100mm) wide from memory. On the day after application, especially if slow hardener has been used, the epoxy is not fully cured and the majority of the filler can then be removed very quickly using a carpenters plane, the technique being to take it down until one can see it starting to get thin. During the planing operation, shavings were flying as if the tailplane was made of wood. This can only be done on flat surfaces or simple curved surfaces of course like the wings and tailplanes and I assume ailerons and flaps etc. The rest of the material is then taken down to the final profile with standard torture boards with varying grit sizes as normal. I wish I had been able to take a video of the faces of all those present that day (including mine) when we all saw one surface of a tailplane prepared ready for painting in 30 minutes. Some present had already spent days doing the same job and they were simply amazed and rather disappointed I might add that their knowledge had been gained a bit too late. How long to leave before sanding back? At the demo, the sanding was done immediately after the planing but I think I might leave mine go for a week or so to more fully cure after planing it down hopefully to help alleviate further shrinkage after sanding. In fact, I may prepare everything up to the ready to sand stage and then put it all in my closed in (and insulated) trailer for the heat curing which I have not yet done. Kingsley Hurst Mono Classic 281 in Oz ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:45 PM PST US From: "Kingsley Hurst" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Control surfaces filling --> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Popenoe" > Now, when you speak of roughing out the majority of the filler with a carpenter's > plane, was that a hand plane or one of the powered ones? > > Pops Pops, Just an ordinary hand plane. Doubt if a powered one would be a good idea! Kingsley ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:26 PM PST US From: "William Mills" Subject: Europa-List: Door Gas Strut Mod. --> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" All, Some time ago on the forum a member came up with a good idea for improving the door strut operation. I seem to remember it involved the gas strut operating a pair of hinged aluminium angle legs to open the door, so that all the force of the gas strut was contained by the aluminium angles when in the closed position and not by the corner of the door. If anyone has done such a mod I would very much like to hear from them. Also, is there a method to persuade the door corners back to the correct shape? Best wishes, William ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:31 PM PST US From: "Paul Stewart" Subject: Re: Europa-List: Door locks --> Europa-List message posted by: "Paul Stewart" Once again thanks for the help Paul Stewart #432