Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:33 AM - G-OWWW first flight. (Richard Holder)
2. 05:24 AM - Re: 100 year party? (STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2)
3. 05:34 AM - was Re: G-OWWW first flight .now a debate about Throttle/power levers. (R.C.Harrison)
4. 06:30 AM - Re: was Re: G-OWWW first flight .now a debate about (Mark Burton)
5. 06:55 AM - Re: was Re: G-OWWW first flight .now a debate aboutThrottle/power levers. (STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2)
6. 06:59 AM - Re: G-OWWW first flight. (John & Paddy Wigney)
7. 08:40 AM - Re: 100 year party? (John & Amy Eckel)
8. 09:59 AM - Re: G-OWWW first flight. (Terry Seaver)
9. 10:04 AM - Re: was Re: G-OWWW first flight .now a debate aboutThrottle/powe... (DJA727@aol.com)
10. 05:20 PM - Re: was Re: G-OWWW first flight .now a debate about Throttle/power levers. (Kingsley Hurst)
11. 05:50 PM - Windscreen and Windows (Troy Maynor)
12. 06:12 PM - Re: Windscreen and Windows (John & Paddy Wigney)
13. 09:50 PM - Re: Windscreen and Windows (DuaneFamly@aol.com)
14. 10:49 PM - Door Gas Strut Mod. (William Mills)
Message 1
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| Subject: | G-OWWW first flight. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Richard Holder <rholder@avnet.co.uk>
> Hi! Richard.
> Congratulations! Good to see there was a HARRISON involved!!!!!
> I will say IMHO that Pete took a long first flight prior to an in the cowl
> check.
I do agree !
> On the Manifold Pressure question, without one you will never know whether
> you are running the engine constantly overloaded or not, with the CS
> prop.your throttle becomes a power lever since the RPM control is done by
> the prop.
Actually the throttle is ALWAYS a power lever, CS or no. What you mean, I
think, is that with CS the tacho is NOT a measure of power.
> This is why I've been waiting for Jabiru to get their act together and
> provide some dynamometer
> power output/manifold pressure charts because even with the Manifold
> Pressure Gauge it will vary with ambient and altitude. In your case with the
> Rotax I'm wondering if you neet two gauges?
Don't suggest that to the PFA for g*d's sake !
Actually the Rotax Operating Manual shows that it is not possible to
overload the 912S engine at either 5 minute revs (5800) or max continuous
(5500). It shows manifold pressure values to define the 75%, 65% and 55%
power levels. For the purpose of economy not for the purpose of engine
preservation.
So I am going to argue that the gauge is not needed. I will let you know.
The PFA inspected the Airmaster on a 914 engined Europa. This comes with a
Turbo boost gauge and this is necessary in case the wastegate sticks closed.
The turbo boost gauge obviously acts as a manifold pressure gauge as well !
> I'm hoping Francis Donaldson gets some progress on this subject during his
> visit to Jabiru at Bundaberg currently, because I'm thinking that Jabiru's
> lack of interest on his question shows a failing of the "grey matter"!
> I'm also more than a little suprised that "others" that you are mentioning
> don't seem to suggest the way to go.
I am waiting for his return - "Seconds out - ding ding" :-)
> I am very pleased to announce that today 26th February at 1555 GMT Europa
> Kit 51 lifted off from Blackbushe airfield for its first flight in the hands
> of Pete Jeffers.
Richard
Richard F.W. Holder 01279 842804 (POTS)
Bell House, Bell Lane, 01279 842942 (fax)
Widford, Ware, Herts, 07860 367423 (mobile)
SG12 8SH email : rholder@avnet.co.uk
PA-28-181 : Piper Archer : G-JANA, EGSG (Stapleford)
Europa Classic Tri-gear : G-OWWW, being flight tested
Message 2
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--> Europa-List message posted by: "STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2" <garrys@att.com>
I haven't heard much about what is planned for the 100th Anniversary.
Will there be a fly in? Is there adequate tiedown space? Camping
availability? I'd be interested in going if there were more details
available.
Regards,
Garry V. Stout
District Manager, Finance, AT&T Business Services
Phone: 813-878-3929 Fax: 813-878-5651
E-Mail: garrys@att.com
-----Original Message-----
From: ScramIt@aol.com [mailto:ScramIt@aol.com]
Subject: Europa-List: 100 year party?
--> Europa-List message posted by: ScramIt@aol.com
Is anyone going to Kitty Hawk in December for the centennial of flight
celebration? I'm going for the week (Dec 13-21). For some RR and
chillen. If
a few Europa builders / pilots show up. I'll have a BBQ
Southern Low boil, or something.
SteveD.
http://homepage.mac.com/sdunsmuir/Europa.html
Message 3
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| Subject: | G-OWWW first flight .now a debate about Throttle/power |
levers.
--> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Hi! Richard.
I'm sorry but I disagree with your statement below that "the throttle is
always a power lever."
It is always the lever which regulates the intake of fuel and normally
associated with RPM. However if a Constant Speed Prop is restraining the RPM
to a fixed level then although the lever performs the same fuel control
function it is actually now controlling the POWER output of the engine
against the fixed RPM.
So Rotax or not you can be inflicting a call for an impossible(and therefore
damaging) power demand against the fixed constant RPM course pitched
propeller unless you have known manifold pressure parameters within which to
stay.
I will be very interested how you present your case and the outcome of the
argument you are destined to have.
Regards
Bob Harrison G-PTAG
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard
Holder
Subject: Europa-List: G-OWWW first flight.
> On the Manifold Pressure question, without one you will never know whether
> you are running the engine constantly overloaded or not, with the CS
> prop.your throttle becomes a power lever since the RPM control is done by
> the prop.
Actually the throttle is ALWAYS a power lever, CS or no. What you mean, I
think, is that with CS the tacho is NOT a measure of power.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: G-OWWW first flight .now a debate about |
Throttle/power levers.
--> Europa-List message posted by: Mark Burton <markb@ordern.com>
I hesitate to comment in the face of expert opinion, but...
Irrespective of whether you have a CS prop or not, waggling the
throttle does influence how much power the engine generates so
Richard's statement appears reasonable. i.e. the throttle always acts
as a power lever.
The fact that the RPM doesn't change (much) for different power levels
when using a CS prop is not really relevant.
Cheers,
Mark
---------
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Subject: was RE: Europa-List: G-OWWW first flight .now a debate about Throttle/power
levers.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Richard.
> I'm sorry but I disagree with your statement below that "the throttle is
> always a power lever."
> It is always the lever which regulates the intake of fuel and normally
> associated with RPM. However if a Constant Speed Prop is restraining the RPM
> to a fixed level then although the lever performs the same fuel control
> function it is actually now controlling the POWER output of the engine
> against the fixed RPM.
> So Rotax or not you can be inflicting a call for an impossible(and therefore
> damaging) power demand against the fixed constant RPM course pitched
> propeller unless you have known manifold pressure parameters within which to
> stay.
> I will be very interested how you present your case and the outcome of the
> argument you are destined to have.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard
> Holder
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: G-OWWW first flight.
>
>
> > On the Manifold Pressure question, without one you will never know whether
> > you are running the engine constantly overloaded or not, with the CS
> > prop.your throttle becomes a power lever since the RPM control is done by
> > the prop.
>
> Actually the throttle is ALWAYS a power lever, CS or no. What you mean, I
> think, is that with CS the tacho is NOT a measure of power.
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | G-OWWW first flight .now a debate aboutThrottle/power |
levers.
--> Europa-List message posted by: "STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2" <garrys@att.com>
I have been flying my Europa CS prop for 4 years. Throttle equals
power. When I want to climb I push the throttle forward. When I want
to descend I pull the throttle lever backward. Power equals climb, lack
of power equals decent. I remember the words of my primary flight
instructor some 35 years ago........pitch for airspeed, power for
altitude.
Regards,
Garry V. Stout
Trigear N4220S
E-Mail: garrys@att.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Burton [mailto:markb@ordern.com]
Subject: Re: was RE: Europa-List: G-OWWW first flight .now a debate
aboutThrottle/power levers.
--> Europa-List message posted by: Mark Burton <markb@ordern.com>
I hesitate to comment in the face of expert opinion, but...
Irrespective of whether you have a CS prop or not, waggling the
throttle does influence how much power the engine generates so
Richard's statement appears reasonable. i.e. the throttle always acts
as a power lever.
The fact that the RPM doesn't change (much) for different power levels
when using a CS prop is not really relevant.
Cheers,
Mark
---------
From: "R.C.Harrison" <ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
Subject: was RE: Europa-List: G-OWWW first flight .now a debate about
Throttle/power levers.
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "R.C.Harrison"
<ptag.dev@ukonline.co.uk>
>
> Hi! Richard.
> I'm sorry but I disagree with your statement below that "the throttle
is
> always a power lever."
> It is always the lever which regulates the intake of fuel and normally
> associated with RPM. However if a Constant Speed Prop is restraining
the RPM
> to a fixed level then although the lever performs the same fuel
control
> function it is actually now controlling the POWER output of the engine
> against the fixed RPM.
> So Rotax or not you can be inflicting a call for an impossible(and
therefore
> damaging) power demand against the fixed constant RPM course pitched
> propeller unless you have known manifold pressure parameters within
which to
> stay.
> I will be very interested how you present your case and the outcome of
the
> argument you are destined to have.
> Regards
> Bob Harrison G-PTAG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Richard
> Holder
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: G-OWWW first flight.
>
>
> > On the Manifold Pressure question, without one you will never know
whether
> > you are running the engine constantly overloaded or not, with the CS
> > prop.your throttle becomes a power lever since the RPM control is
done by
> > the prop.
>
> Actually the throttle is ALWAYS a power lever, CS or no. What you
mean, I
> think, is that with CS the tacho is NOT a measure of power.
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: G-OWWW first flight. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney@worldnet.att.net>
R.C.Harrison wrote:
>On the Manifold Pressure question, without one you will never know whether
>you are running the engine constantly overloaded or not, with the CS
>prop.your throttle becomes a power lever since the RPM control is done by
>the prop.
>
For Rotax 912 owners, the question of overloading is addressed in the
Operators Manual, ref. section 10.1.1.2 :-
" The engine allows operation with fully open throttle valve over the
whole r.p.m. range, without limitation. But full throttle operation
performance above 5500 r.p.m. is limited to 5 minutes."
From this, it is could be argued that it is not necessary to have a
manifold pressure gauge with a 912 and a variable pitch or constant
speed prop, since it cannot be overloaded below 5500 rpm. Having said
that, the manifold pressure gauge is pretty well indispensable to obtain
desired and repeatable engine power settings. I would not be without
one, I refer to it all the time.
Cheers, John
N262WF, mono XS, 912S, WhirlWind c/s prop
Mooresville, North Carolina
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: 100 year party? |
--> Europa-List message posted by: John & Amy Eckel <eckel1@comcast.net>
There is a lot planned for the anniversary. There is a flight planned on
the 17th at
10:35 a. m. of an exact copy of the Wright flyer with a second flight later
in the day.
A good place to look is at the EAA site.
http://eaa.org/
Click on Count down to Kitty Hawk.
There are many sites rerlated to this event. There are plans for airshows
from Sat thru Wed.
John, A230
----- Original Message -----
From: "STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2" <garrys@att.com>
Subject: RE: Europa-List: 100 year party?
> --> Europa-List message posted by: "STOUT, GARRY V, CSFF2"
<garrys@att.com>
>
> I haven't heard much about what is planned for the 100th Anniversary.
> Will there be a fly in? Is there adequate tiedown space? Camping
> availability? I'd be interested in going if there were more details
> available.
>
> Regards,
>
> Garry V. Stout
>
> District Manager, Finance, AT&T Business Services
> Phone: 813-878-3929 Fax: 813-878-5651
> E-Mail: garrys@att.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ScramIt@aol.com [mailto:ScramIt@aol.com]
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: 100 year party?
>
>
> --> Europa-List message posted by: ScramIt@aol.com
>
> Is anyone going to Kitty Hawk in December for the centennial of flight
> celebration? I'm going for the week (Dec 13-21). For some RR and
> chillen. If
> a few Europa builders / pilots show up. I'll have a BBQ
> Southern Low boil, or something.
>
> SteveD.
> http://homepage.mac.com/sdunsmuir/Europa.html
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: G-OWWW first flight. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: Terry Seaver <terrys@cisco.com>
Although our Europa XS with 912S has a Whirlwind CS prop, I almost never use the
manifold pressure gauge, instead using the fuel flow for setting cruise levels,
etc.
Terry Seaver
N135TD
John & Paddy Wigney wrote:
> --> Europa-List message posted by: John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney@worldnet.att.net>
>
> R.C.Harrison wrote:
>
> >On the Manifold Pressure question, without one you will never know whether
> >you are running the engine constantly overloaded or not, with the CS
> >prop.your throttle becomes a power lever since the RPM control is done by
> >the prop.
> >
> For Rotax 912 owners, the question of overloading is addressed in the
> Operators Manual, ref. section 10.1.1.2 :-
>
> " The engine allows operation with fully open throttle valve over the
> whole r.p.m. range, without limitation. But full throttle operation
> performance above 5500 r.p.m. is limited to 5 minutes."
>
> From this, it is could be argued that it is not necessary to have a
> manifold pressure gauge with a 912 and a variable pitch or constant
> speed prop, since it cannot be overloaded below 5500 rpm. Having said
> that, the manifold pressure gauge is pretty well indispensable to obtain
> desired and repeatable engine power settings. I would not be without
> one, I refer to it all the time.
>
> Cheers, John
>
> N262WF, mono XS, 912S, WhirlWind c/s prop
> Mooresville, North Carolina
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: G-OWWW first flight .now a debate aboutThrottle/powe... |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DJA727@aol.com
In a message dated 2/27/2003 6:56:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, garrys@att.com
writes:
> ........pitch for airspeed, power for
> altitude.
>
Unless yo are flying a high performance jet aircraft -- a lesson I learned 20
years ago -- or so.
Dave A227
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: G-OWWW first flight .now a debate about Throttle/power |
levers.
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Kingsley Hurst" <hurstkr@growzone.com.au>
All
I'll stand being corrected if I am wrong but if I remember correctly what I
learned over 30 years ago when I did my commercial subjects, the power of an
engine is proportional to Manifold Pressure (controlled by the throttle
and/or altitude in the case of a normally aspirated engine) and is also
proportional to Revs per minute (RPM)
Given that the RPM remains constant, less throttle (MP) = Less Power, more
throttle (MP) = More Power
also
Given that the MP (throttle setting) remains constant, less RPM = Less
Power, more RPM = More Power
It therefore follows that for a given power setting, there are many
combinations of MP and RPM that will do the trick.
Also if I remember correctly, for a given power setting, best economy is
achieved with the combination of maximum MP (allowable) with the minimum RPM
for that power setting. This may only be the case for radials ...... I'm
not sure.
With a normally aspirated engine, if you are cruising at say 8,000 ft on
full throttle and wish to climb to say 10,000 ft, the only way extra power
can be attained is to INCREASE the RPM assuming you were already cruising at
less than Max RPM and ignoring mixture settings.
I note John Wigney has already covered what Rotax has to say so I would like
to make the comment that with a 912 as in my case, I cannot see why a MP
gauge should be mandatory but it is certainly desirable if one wishes to get
the best out of the engine both in performance and economy otherwise one is
just guessing.
Since power is proportional to mp AND rpm, what would be the point in having
one gauge and not the other?
Just my two bobs worth. I think manifold pressure may be abbreviated as MAP
nowadays but I'm sure it was MP once upon a time!!
Regards
Kingsley
Message 11
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| Subject: | Windscreen and Windows |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54@charter.net>
Does anyone know the name of the company that provides the gray tinted windows
for the Europa here in the US? Is it possible there may be someone out there that
prefers the bronze tinted ones that I have instead of the gray ones? Doesn't
hurt to ask I suppose. Maybe you are planning a tan or brown interior that
would match better....
Thanks,
Troy Maynor
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Windscreen and Windows |
--> Europa-List message posted by: John & Paddy Wigney <johnwigney@worldnet.att.net>
Troy Maynor wrote:
>--> Europa-List message posted by: "Troy Maynor" <wingnut54@charter.net>
>Does anyone know the name of the company that provides the gray tinted windows
for the Europa here in the US? Is it possible there may be someone out there
that prefers the bronze tinted ones that I have instead of the gray ones? Doesn't
hurt to ask I suppose. Maybe you are planning a tan or brown interior that
would match better.... Thanks, Troy Maynor
>
>
Hi Troy,
HOWGOZ the project ? Good progress I hope.
The company is LP Aero Plastics, Jeannette, Pennsylvania. <
http://www.lpaero.com/ >
Contact is George Mesiarik, VP & Gen Mgr. 800-957-2376,
george@lpaero.com. He is usually at SunNFun.
Cheers, John
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Windscreen and Windows |
--> Europa-List message posted by: DuaneFamly@aol.com
In looking at the different options that Europa lists for their windscreens
and windows, I was wondering if the prices are justified. Does it really cost
another $200 to put a vent in one window? or $200 to add a bulge for the
bugeye windows? or $310 for a thicker windshield?
But I guess that since the windscreens and windshields come with the kit and
you order them from Europa when you are ready for them, there is no way to
get around the additional cost if you want the options.
Mike Duane A207
Redding, California
XS Trigear
Message 14
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| Subject: | Door Gas Strut Mod. |
--> Europa-List message posted by: "William Mills" <combined.merchants@virgin.net>
Many thanks for all the responses to my door gas strut request. No "off forum"
messages to forward, Tony. I hope someone comes up with a solution to Garry Stout's
request.
Best wishes,
William
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